The Crash | Crime Seen episode 201

[00:00:25] I'm Mari Forth I'm Sarah Carradine, podcasting from Unceded Gadigal Land. This is Crime Seen, the true crime review podcast where we get to the heart of how true crime stories are told. Last episode we watched We Are Jenny with Ellen Marsh from I Think Not Pod. Mari, what did we watch this week? This week we watched The Crash on Netflix. It was directed by Gareth Johnson.

[00:00:51] He directed The Body Next Door, The Puppet Master, The Ultimate Con Man, and episodes of Banged Up Abroad. I think that has a different name in America. Yes, I'm familiar with it as Locked Up Abroad, which... Oh yeah, same show. Yeah, same show. Yes, yes. Idiots! If you want to just hang around with some idiots, watch the show, it's great. And she last joined us for Bad Influence, The Dark Side of Kidfluencing.

[00:01:19] It's our always reliable glimpse into the minds of the young, of the youth, as those would say. Nicole Horn, welcome back. Tick tock, Nicole. Nicole! So good to be back. And man, we got a doozy to discuss today. I feel like everybody in America is talking about the crash right now. I mean, I've been talking about it at the water cooler all week, and I'm so glad that the three of us get to come together to talk about this crazy story.

[00:01:48] Yes, yes. We immediately were like, who should we call? We need to understand this. So let's go back to, well, let's go to Nicole. Nicole, have you been following up with Piper's story from the Kidfluencing that we last covered? Sadly, when she turned 18, I had to block. I mean, she's been blocked.

[00:02:12] But when she turned 18, I saw some unfortunate headlines and reporting about her that, you know, unfortunately, that is the age of consent in America. So she kind of took advantage of that and explored some different money making avenues when the opportunity was presented to her. It's a really hard watch. So she remains blocked. Of course, I wish her well, but it's an unfortunate situation as we previously discussed. Exactly.

[00:02:40] Sarah, I'm pretty sure we updated our listeners about Piper Raquel, who was the main character, if you will, of the Kidfluencing docuseries we covered. And I'm pretty sure we updated the audience that for her 18th birthday, she opened an OnlyFans account, right? Mm-hmm. Yes, that's right. Yeah. We updated.

[00:03:01] There was also a show that we decided behind the scenes not to cover because we thought, like Nicole, it's like we wish her well. We wish her all the best. She was made, not born, in my opinion. And I just would like to leave her there. The damage that her mother and she did to other children remains unattoned for, in my opinion. Yeah. Rather unfortunate.

[00:03:31] Because again, we support sex work. It just feels a little... Absolutely. Sex work is work. Yes. Yeah. It's just how it all came about. It does not feel kosher, right? Mm-hmm. Yeah.

[00:03:47] Well, interestingly on Nature Boy, which we discussed a couple of episodes ago, that idea of brainwashing and that idea of how you control young minds is one of the themes of crime scene, I think. How the brain isn't formed and is very susceptible. We might see a little bit of that today. I don't know. No spoilers. I was just about to say.

[00:04:12] Speaking of which, let's get to the crime so we can talk about this very fascinating documentary. In Strongville, Ohio in 2022, then 17-year-old Mackenzie Shirilla intentionally crashed her car into a brick wall going 100 miles per hour. She killed her passengers, her boyfriend, Dominic Russo, and his friend, Davion Flanagan.

[00:04:37] In 2023, she was convicted of 12 felonies and sentenced to 15 years to life. So, what a doozy. What a story to really sink our teeth into. First off, Nicole, I'm going to ask, what were your overall thoughts about this feature-length documentary? I thought it was a wild story from start to finish.

[00:05:05] I was not aware of the story before the documentary, watching it myself. Obviously, they mentioned that Mackenzie was somewhat of an influencer herself. She was, you know, using TikTok and Instagram. She was friends with people that had a bit of a following. So, I was surprised that this was something that never came across my desk.

[00:05:26] But wow, at first, what seemed like such a – something that could have been perceived as an accident, you know, kids driving recklessly, turned out to be so much more. From the jump, we start in the beginning seeing, you know, the body cam footage of the crash, which, side note that we can get into, the prevalence of body cams is just crazy. I've noticed that just across my documentary viewing in general, you think it's just an innocent crash.

[00:05:52] But then I noticed, I'm like, whoa, why weren't there skid marks at the scene of the crash? You know, this is such a mangled situation. It's a residential area. You start having all of these questions and the way it unraveled, just more and more, you start to learn about Mackenzie herself, you know, the perpetrator of the crash. You learn about her friend groups. We learn about the two victims, Davion and Dominic, and the turmoil that the situation put their families through.

[00:06:19] I really appreciate it, especially the perspective of, I believe it was Scott Flanagan, the father of Davion. And just the way that he was just so emotionally intelligent hearing him just explain the situation about how Mackenzie, how her life and how she was raised to just not take accountability.

[00:06:39] And the situation was just that tenfold and was kind of an example of what happens when you let a situation go unchecked, when you let attitudes and behaviors go unchecked, and how it could really affect not only your life, but the lives of families in ways that are ultimately irreversible. So yeah, crazy situation, but I'm really happy that we got to learn about the victims as well.

[00:07:03] And we like to hear their stories in addition to the terrible individual that put the families in such a terrible position. Yeah. Sarah, how about you, your overall thoughts about this documentary? Well, they are complex and many layered. Yeah. Just hear real quick. Oh my God.

[00:07:25] So I was watching this and I had an overwhelming thought, which is, what are we doing here? Like, what are we doing here? And I had to examine it because, spoiler, I think it's very well made. But I thought, what are we doing here? Why am I watching this? Why am I calling our wonderful frequent guest, Nicole, back for her sixth time to, why are we putting her through this? Why are we talking about it?

[00:07:54] Why are we giving it time? Why are we giving it time? But of course I had to watch it because we were going to talk about it. And as I watched it, certain things unfolded. I'm so happy to have met Divine, Davion's sister. She's incredible. And also she appeared in another property that we watched on this subject. I feel that my revulsion for the property was probably more my revulsion for Mackenzie.

[00:08:24] We don't have to say alleged she was adjudicated as having murdered two people because she wanted to. And I have opinions about what she thought the outcome of that was going to be. So yeah, and I still think like, what are we doing here? If any question an existential crisis? I thought, is this the end of crime scene? Am I not going to be able to watch crime anymore? I mean, I think I am.

[00:08:49] But this one's been a bit of a watershed for me and I would really like to unpick those feelings with you. It's almost like I was thinking, oh, well, I'm going to give this a one. I'm going to give this a zero. Really? But there's more. It's well-made. So I was thinking, well, it's well-made. But I, yes, I'm very intrigued to discuss it. Lots of thoughts going on there. Murray, how about you? What were your overall thoughts? Yeah, my overall thoughts was I was riveted from start to finish.

[00:09:18] Again, it was one of those things where I was like, I am going to go hug my children very tightly. You know what I'm saying? And it was also for my very scientific brain. I was like, details, details, details. Like, you know, the whole wasn't an accident or wasn't it? It's such a good way to approach the subject because it gets people talking, you know?

[00:09:43] However, I do think that they may have left out some things so that we could, so that it could be more of a did she or didn't she? Because like you said, she's adjudicated as to have been found at fault intentionally for the accident. And I do think that they kind of went a little lighter on her in comparison for some of the stuff. Yeah, some of the other material that we have. We have, we have side material. Yes.

[00:10:13] We have to goog. Yes, side goog. So, you know, that aside, I really, I really, really did enjoy, harsh word, but you know, this, this documentary for, for multiple, multiple reasons. So let's go ahead and get into, especially the beginning here, because I do like what you brought up, Nicole, the police cam footage. We opened with the police cam footage of the first responders responding to the crash.

[00:10:41] My God, this, this, this whole opening here just truly shattered my heart. You know what I'm saying? Just shattered me. And the rise of body cam footage is, it is a thing. And when it's used appropriately, it's gut wrenching. It's like you've been punched in the gut and it sets the tone. And this was used appropriately.

[00:11:08] Some other times I can think of it not being reused appropriately, Sarah, Lucy Leppi. Remember when we saw all three of Lucy Leppi's arrests via police body cam footage? And we were like, why? Yes. Yes. And even more recently, Cult of Nature Boy, we have body cam footage of a young black man being killed in America. Yeah. And both you and Kamaria and me said, you did not need to show me that. Exactly.

[00:11:37] You did not need to show me that. You didn't need to illustrate your point with that. So I think there's sometimes some overboardness. I think sometimes there's too much use of it. I'm not convinced that's the case here. I think it might've been judicious, but I'm interested to hear what you have to say. I actually really thought it was important. I thought it was really important because I think it, it brings you almost along with the police.

[00:12:01] It brings you as an audience member to the opening of, well, what happened here? It plops you directly into the story of, okay, this is the outcome. How did we get here? And just hearing the poor police officers, which when I say that on here, but to hear them like discovering the kids and just, oh my God. And then trying to help and rushing to help and, and all of that.

[00:12:30] And it just, the direness of the situation. And even at first seeing McKenzie's parents reacting to learning, not even of their child's death, but of the deaths of the children in her car literally started making me tear up. Because it put me in those, in the shoes of those parents, like hearing that their child, children had died. Nicole, did you feel that like being set up for what was about to happen? I mean, it was so hard to look at.

[00:13:00] I mean, just watching the families find out in real time, what had happened to their loved ones. And it's crazy just in general, not just the rise of body cam footage, but just the, because we all have iPhones. There's so many more clips and documentaries about things that have happened in the past 10, 15 years that have just so much footage of the individuals. I mean, it seems like McKenzie vlogged her life in some way.

[00:13:23] It was just crazy to see her and Dom, you know, they had been living together, pictures of them in the backyard in these red chairs. And then you flash forward to seeing the dad of Dominic finding out that his son had died in the car crash. It's sitting in the same red chairs that they were taking pictures in, in a few clips earlier. It just, it just made it seem all the more visceral and real. Yeah.

[00:13:46] And just knowing that over time, you know, at first you see Dominic's family, they're sitting next to the family of McKenzie, you know, thinking the best, you know, they didn't know the details of the situation. They were hoping, you know, that's just my son's girlfriend that she would just want the best for him. And over time, as things seem to unravel, not only to, you know, the audience, but to the family, you feel that, that, that gut dropping in real time. Yeah. It's just, it was so deeply visceral.

[00:14:16] And I, I do agree that, um, opening it up with the police officers, seeing just their horror and, uh, devastation in the situation, realizing that it's not just one person, it's three people. Thankfully, you know, one of them is breathing, pulling her out of the car. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It was a crazy way to start. Um, definitely was the beginning for a wild ride.

[00:14:40] And we really, the way they revealed the information throughout the documentary felt kind of, um, parallel to real life, how the families found out as things seemed to unravel for them as well. Sarah, you said the use of the, uh, footage may have been judicious. Just start unraveling for me your, your thoughts here. I will.

[00:15:00] I think that the, the use here at the beginning is an object lesson for all documentarians of how to use this footage that there's so much of. So it, we approach the car with the police officer. We run towards the car. Yeah.

[00:15:19] And the filmmakers were able to show us the horror of the car crash without showing us the bodies. Yeah. So that's what I mean about it being a lesson for other, other filmmakers. We never saw the bodies. We didn't see Mackenzie until she was healing in hospital, but we felt the horror as if we had seen it.

[00:15:46] I didn't need to see it, but being with the officers, seeing it gave me that feeling. And in fact, one of them recognizes Davion and says, oh, he plays football because he's a football player at high school, which I believe in America makes you very well known. Yeah. So one of the police officers actually recognizes him. And you think to see like, how do they ever unsee that? Yeah.

[00:16:10] And we're pretty hard on police, which we should be, but they also are human beings. I think that this was such a good use of the body cam footage, which we might see overused in other documentaries or personal videos and home videos and all of that stuff, which we're starting to see, I think, very overused.

[00:16:34] Here it was absolutely judiciously really good, which is why I keep saying it's a well-made documentary that I hated. Yeah. You're separating the art from the artist in the worst way possible. In the worst way possible. That's the worst example of art. I think we'll find out by the end what my problem is. Well, one of them. Yeah. But yeah, no, I think this was an amazing start.

[00:16:58] And as you say, Nicole, it meant we followed the story from the official point of view, which was, oh my God, this terrible accident, these poor children inside, all the way through to the wonderful judge in this case, who I was so impressed by, just telling her, basically, I don't believe a word you say.

[00:17:20] I don't believe this demure, young act you're putting on with the tear, single tear going down one side, being dabbed by the tissue. I don't believe it. You're a murderer. Go to jail. Yeah. The police actually do work it up. They initially are thinking it's an accident, right? They find both weed and mushrooms in the car. And they're like, you know, it's initially thought, okay, maybe some impairment was involved.

[00:17:50] But then they start to really notice that there are no skid marks before the crash, which they're like, okay, that's a little weird. But some of the damning evidence that they come to find during the investigation is the surveillance camera footage. And this surveillance camera footage, when I tell you, me and my husband, I hate watching like the last moments of people's lives.

[00:18:20] But I kept rewinding it because I was like, what? What? What? This footage. So, Sarah, the first footage we get is them turning on to this long stretch of road in this business park, which here in America, business parks are like, especially in the Midwest and stuff like that.

[00:18:39] They're like these stretches, like lots of land where it's just these brick buildings that are just rented out for different businesses. And it could be anything. And there's pockets of these things in different towns. But this street that they're on, I believe they said was like at least like a mile and a half straight just through this business park, just building. So not residential.

[00:19:08] There's no residential stuff in sight. They're in this business park. And the first footage we get is the control turn onto this street. And then Sarah, the rest of the footage is just like, what happened? Yes. Yes. So beautiful. The textbook controlled left-hand turn, right-hand turn, in fact, but for Australians, left-hand turn. Not a car around, but the indicator is used. The turn is perfect.

[00:19:37] This is not someone who's out of control. And I think less than a minute later, we see this 100 miles an hour down a very straight road. And as we all say, no skid marks. So it was shocking because we feel like we see the crash. We certainly hear it. I jumped. But it's necessary, I think, because we have to see that there was no attempt at the brakes.

[00:20:05] We're going to get a crash daddy telling us all the internal situation in the car, which is really what sent her to jail. But it's a straight shot with no braking whatsoever. So when the parents are going to say, oh, she has POTS or she blacked out, if you black out, your foot comes off the accelerator. Even if you can't reach the brake, your foot comes off the accelerator. Yeah. Imagine watching this with POTS.

[00:20:32] I would be so pissed if I had POTS and heard this girl saying, oh, I blacked out, I had POTS. Like, no. Yeah, representation is important, but not when you're lying about it. Allegedly. I know. I have friends who have, like, legit, like, diagnoses that they can't get a driver's license because of it. And it's like, if POTS was such, like, a big deal and you were found to have it affected you this much, you would not have a driver's license.

[00:21:01] Like, you could just not. You know what I'm saying? Like, the producer does ask the parents when they bring up POTS, which is positional something-something syndrome. Basically, you can just faint at any moment. Yeah. In a change of position or change of conditions. And the mother claims that she has it. There's no medical evidence to be presented that she's been diagnosed with it. And the interviewer does say to her, and so she has POTS, okay, and you let her have a driver's license.

[00:21:29] Nicole, I may have jumped the gun here a little bit getting into the investigation. We are introduced to Mackenzie's best friend, Rosie Graham, who is also an influencer, a better influencer, some would say, than Mackenzie. She has way more followers. And their friend Bubba. And Rosie and Bubba tell us that they're, like, all of them were their best friends. Mackenzie, Dom, Davion, they all hung out together. They spent every day together. What did you think about Rosie and Bubba's contribution to this documentary?

[00:22:00] Oh, man. At first, I'm like, oh, it's their friend, you know, Rosie. I recognize Rosie from TikTok. She's most famous. I mean, independent of this because she made, like, a 30-day Pilates challenge. So a lot of people, like, follow her for her workout. So nothing related to this at all. So I was like, whoa, I recognize her. But then as the documentary went on and they started to, you know, speak to more of, you know, Mackenzie, she would never do this.

[00:22:27] You know, it was tough to watch them and their biases show so strong. You would think, you know, you have three friends, you know, in a car crash. Two of them died, wouldn't you know? To take the side of the two over the one, you know? It's just really – that was really difficult to watch them continue to make, like, excuses for the situation when the evidence began to mount. Like, it's okay to be on the wrong side at first, you know? You want to believe your friend, you know?

[00:22:54] But as the evidence began to mount, like, I thought something in particular that was really strange that I think could have triggered more of the investigation. Is they found, you know, none of the psilocybin in her labs. You know, they found Mackenzie to be in her right mind. But still, you know, they're young kids, but they're still enabling, you know, Mackenzie to smoke and drive in other situations. You know, they're all doing drugs or enabling each other, you know, to make poor choices.

[00:23:22] And still to double down on those poor choices with years later and reflection later. Like, I saw that Bubba and Rosie have turned off their Instagram comments. And also the other friend as well. They turned off their Instagram comments. But when you say something like, oh, our friend has such high self-esteem, she would never eat a McChicken. How could she hurt someone if she wouldn't even hurt herself by eating a McChicken? And I don't know. I just felt like those contributions were so shallow.

[00:23:49] It really showed a lack of reflection on their parts. Yeah, I agree. Sarah, thoughts of the friend group? Well, of course, the McChicken. I have many, many thoughts. There's nothing wrong with a McDonald's every now and again once a year or if you're at an airport. Because as we all know, calories consumed at an airport do not count. Never. So get your fast food there.

[00:24:13] I, at first, was inclined towards, not sympathy, but certainly an openness towards Rosie and Bubba and later faith with a Y. Less so, because she's got that Y there. But, you know, that's not her fault. You didn't have faith in the face. But the lack, I thought that it was going to be, I thought that they were very cleverly putting themselves back into 2022 where they didn't believe for a moment that Mackenzie could have done it.

[00:24:39] And now, in 2025, 2026, two years after she's been convicted with the benefit of hindsight, the benefit of seeing all the evidence, the benefit of just being older, that they would have come to some self-reflection. But, no, they are, it's like they're back in their 17-year-old selves. And, you know, that was 2022, so forth, so they're 21 now. The ages, I think, are important.

[00:25:07] Dominic was 20 at the time, three years older than Mackenzie, and Davion was 19. And, again, though Rosie and Bubba say we were all friends, we do hear, and from our side, Guging Murray, that Davion was particularly Dom's friend and not necessarily in that group of young people. Exactly. Davion was newer to the group and he was Dom's friend, which is very interesting dynamics.

[00:25:33] Bubba did say that Davion was supposed to ride with him originally that morning of the accident. And they did exchange, I love you, like I love you bros. But from what we do come to understand, Davion was not particularly Mackenzie's friend. And further, that there may have been some jealousy of the friendship between Dom and Davion.

[00:26:03] As we start to hear that she's a little more controlling. Not strongly enough, in my opinion, but we do hear that. So I think that does add to the thoughts there. Yeah, of his expendability. On the other side, so not only did we get Scott Flanagan, Divine Flanagan, who we also talked about, we did get Dom's father, Frank Russo, and Dom's sister, Christine Russo.

[00:26:32] Sarah, can you talk about the family involvement, your thoughts on the family involvement? Yeah, no, I absolutely can. And I mean, this was so good. So we have two fathers, we have two sisters. And this quartet absolutely wins the day. They are the MVPs.

[00:26:53] I think that the narratively interesting journey is for Frank and Christine, Dom's father and sister, who, as you say, were at the side of Mackenzie's family when they were in the courtroom. They sat with them. So even through the investigation, even through the arrest, Frank in particular and Christine had enormous empathy and sympathy for Mackenzie.

[00:27:22] You know, our son is dead. But Frank in particular would visit her in hospital, we know from our side, Googling every day, she would cry in his arms. And they had to go through such a handbrake turn with squealing wheels. Frank says, as he sat in the courtroom, the day that the evidence came from the crash daddy, who talked about the accelerator was never released and the brakes were never touched. And he realized that she did it deliberately.

[00:27:51] In that moment, that change for him. Whereas with Divine and Scott, Davian's sister and dad, they were always like, hmm, who's this girl? Who's this girl? Particularly seeing her five days after the crash from her hospital bed, responding to a brand on Instagram who's offering her a brand deal, publicly responding with, oh, I'm so excited.

[00:28:19] I can't wait to work with you guys. So Scott always said, I just want to know the truth. But I think he always felt that there was something. And I think it makes sense relationship wise, because Dom was her boyfriend of three years. They lived next door to Frank, his father. So he was closer to her.

[00:28:41] Whereas for Divine and Scott, they saw her as the third person out from Davian's friendship with Dom. So I think they had a slightly clearer view of her. Yeah, exactly. They immediately were like, why was my son in this, basically?

[00:29:02] Because what seems to unfold is a history of intimate partner violence between Dom and McKenzie. And Davian is unfortunately collateral damage, which is horrendous to say. Okay, so which, oh God, when we get to court case, we'll talk about the mom.

[00:29:30] But like, Davian's family being so gung-ho about we want answers, we want justice, I think is one of the reasons why McKenzie is behind bars, to be quite honest. Because they, from the get-go, were like, this does not add up. On the flip side, Nicole, we get McKenzie's parents here. Don't make me scream into the wood.

[00:29:57] Because parents is like the most loose term you can use for these individuals. Because parenting, they did not to that daughter. It was really, really sad to see the juxtaposition of someone like Scott Flanagan, who rides 10 does down for his son, his whole family, to the extent that he was a major pursuer of getting legal action, getting Tim Troop, the prosecutor on the case, the iconic Tim Troop from Strongville. He will always be famous to me.

[00:30:28] But compared to the enablers... Enablers. Yeah. Natalie and Steve very much, they came off as hippy-dippy-ish kind of parents to me, in a sense. And maybe that's the wrong words to use. But it was very, it was very, like, airheaded. Like, as the interview went along, I was like, oh, okay. They, they don't care. It was excuse after excuse. Like, yeah, McKenzie smokes a little bit of pot.

[00:30:56] I smoke a little pot, Steve says. If she's gonna do a drug, that's the one I would want her to use. Of course, her and Dom has been dating for four years. Oh, yeah, she was 13 and he was 16 when they met him. Fine. Yeah, they live together. She's 17, he's 20. Sure. Fine. We're really hands off. And again, as a parent who does allow my, my kids freedom, it's always within bounds. And it's always like, the teaching is,

[00:31:25] if you do something, there will be consequences. So, if something happens, you have to be prepared for the consequences. This family gave off that there were absolutely no consequences for anything that she did. And the enabling, the excuse making was just so pervasive throughout, throughout this, this documentary. This story culminating with Natalie Schirrilla, McKenzie's mom, speaking at her sentencing hearing,

[00:31:53] and just putting her foot in her mouth. Almost, I would have given her more time because of what her mom said. The judge was having none of her crap. None of it. I mean, Steve proudly tells this story. Like, case closed as far as he's concerned after this. So, he gets called to the school to pick up his daughter, who's done something naughty, according to the school.

[00:32:22] And he asks her if she did it, and she says no. And he tells us, well, I know when my daughter's lying, that was enough for me. You know, she was in the right. It's like, yes, sometimes I suppose you do have to fight the school, but I don't think a privileged young white girl is as oppressed as she might think she is. This is a very privileged, I was going to say stronghold. This neighborhood is very affluent.

[00:32:51] I think that that's something that isn't particularly emphasized in this documentary. I don't think it's unimportant, but I certainly think that looking at Natalie and Steve, the privilege that is reeking off them comes through the screen. Right. I don't like them. I don't know if I've made that clear. They barely touched on, they said Dom was well-to-do. They barely touched on his crypto trading and how basically rich he was at 20,

[00:33:20] because what I'm assuming is the money from his family was able to be used. Family money. Yeah, exactly. To get into the crypto game and to make money that was then demanded that he spend it on McKenzie, which again, we get a little bit of that here, but you know, there's a lot more to it. That's the framework. That's all the players. We get back to the investigation.

[00:33:48] When the police uncover the video footage, they also get several witnesses that come forward. I think there are a few boys who said, oh, we had a Life 360 with Dom and Baby on, and we saw like the crash on the Life 360. We get people saying like, oh, we witnessed them having fights. And all of this stacks up to McKenzie's arrest. We get footage of McKenzie's arrest, which I was, even I was kind of like,

[00:34:17] oh, there's a little much. This arrest is a little much, but fine. I think, look, generally I would agree with you, but I think it leads into, because again, what's only touched on and not investigated more, and maybe it doesn't need to be, is the social media response. And because when they're taking off the handcuffs and she's got friendship bracelets on, she says, I'll be careful not to break the bracelets. And then that footage goes on social media, and then people are saying,

[00:34:47] oh, you know, she's killed two people, and she's worried about the bracelets. And her friends are saying, no, Dom gave her the bracelets, so it's all she has of him. All she has of him, other than the Chanel earrings, the Prada shoes, the Blavenciaga clothes, the bags, and all of the other things that she has to remember him by. Sure. So yes, normally I'd agree with you about the arrest footage. Well, there's two bits of footage in there. There's them being pulled over on the highway, and then there's her being taken out of the car

[00:35:17] into the police station. I would normally agree with you, but I think it just had that tinge of how, for a section of the internet, every moment of this was being followed. I was not aware of this case at all. Yeah, I wasn't aware of it either. Yeah. So, at the trial, Tim Troop, a prosecutor, is having none of it. Mackenzie comes in in her best 17-year-old dress. Like, she is, no makeup,

[00:35:46] no lashes, completely, honestly looks completely different from her social media presence, to be quite honest. She looks her actual age here. You can't see her belly, you can't see her arms, you can't see her décolletage. Exactly. And, the court case is so interesting, because we get, like we said, car daddy, who breaks down, that the, the, the, breaks down, that the brakes were never touched,

[00:36:15] and that the gas pedal was actually at 100%, it was engaged all the way to the floor, for at least the last five seconds before impact, which means never touched. Some more interesting evidence presented was that at one point, from the car data, is that one point that the wheel kind of swerved and righted itself, that it went from drive to neutral back to drive, so we, we might think that maybe Dominic or Davion might have been trying to

[00:36:45] get control of the car before impact, because apparently Dom and Davion did not have their seatbelts on, probably because again, they were trying to get at her to, get her to stop, but none of that matters if the floor, if the pedal is all the way to the floor, and you're going 100 miles per hour. Some other stuff that we learned as well is like Nicole said, there was no cyclocybin in McKenzie's bloodstream,

[00:37:15] because it's true, you do have to send that out to the state, we do not test for mushroom psychedelics on a regular drug panel, we just test for your regular THC cocaine, benzos, stuff like that. Alcohol? Alcohol, yes, of course, and the only thing they said that she had in her system was THC, from smoking weed, and from the bazillions of videos of her smoking fat joints

[00:37:44] in her car while driving, nobody felt like that would have impaired her for driving for some reason, I don't know. Silly me, I don't want to be in a car with somebody smoking tons of weed, but sure. So, nothing, basically all the evidence presented is like, you were perfectly fine, girl, you made no attempt to stop this, and suspiciously, that car was aimed at

[00:38:14] the passenger side, you know, of the wall, the wall. So, I mean, all of the evidence kind of does point that this was done intentionally. Nicole, do you want to talk about the amazing judge that we had in this court case, who she was having absolutely none of this? I mean, we see that Mackenzie opts for a bench trial rather than a jury, meaning it's really up to the discretion of the judge what her fate's

[00:38:43] going to be, and I presume she does this because, you know, a jury of your peers, you hear this story, emotionally you're going to want to punish someone that killed two people, but maybe a judge will do things by the book. I mean, the judge, all it took for any party was just seeing the video of the crash, seeing somebody drive at such a speed towards a building is almost the most indisputable evidence that I've ever seen, and seeing a judge so willing to just be objective,

[00:39:14] overlook, you know, the lies, you know, the eyes darting both different ways, you know, when we hear the defense, you know, the grasping at straws of the defense of the perpetrator in the situation being Mackenzie. Mackenzie, it was just great to see the no-nonsense approach, you know, seeing the questioning back, you know, of the mother when on the day of the sentencing, you know, the judge says, you know, you're speaking a lot about I, I, I, you're talking a lot about your daughter, you know, even in the

[00:39:43] Instagram comments earlier that we discussed, you know, Mackenzie's mom was in her Instagram comments days after the arrest being like, you know, you know, Mackenzie is so grateful for this opportunity, but she knows she feels terrible about what the pain she's caused maybe even more than, you know, other people, which is crazy when your child is the one walking free and is still here. Yeah. Yeah, just incredibly tone deaf, and I'm glad that the judge had a no-nonsense approach, you know, especially when you could see all of the reasons why you would

[00:40:12] think that Mackenzie's legal team would go the route of trying to rely on the judge. You lost. You got outsmarted, and I think the evidence was more than enough. Can I say they were hoping for a man? And now we say the quiet part out loud. I was very shocked that they went for a bench trial because I do think her little kid visage could have probably swayed two jurors to at least get a mistrial. Yeah, I was actually shocked by that, but then again, it was probably

[00:40:42] all over the news at that point, so they probably wanted less influenced people. Yeah, and the mom to be like, uh, Davian was like a new friend, so the judge was like, oh, so his life didn't matter because he, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, and I'm like, and so, like you said, she is convicted. I still do feel like I have a little bit of a problem. She was convicted to 15 years of life, sentenced for both of the murders,

[00:41:12] but it's served concurrently, right, which, not consecutively, so it's 15 years of life, but it feels like she's only, you know, really serving time for the one death, and Davian's family have repeatedly said that they do not feel like their child's life has been regarded in the sentencing of McKenzie. Sarah, do you feel that way? Well, a couple of things. I mean, she was tried

[00:41:42] as an adult. She was 17 when it happened. She was tried two years later, but she was only 19 then. And we've talked about her. But I'm so angry with her. I want her to be, you know, it's like my vengeful heart says that she should be. 15 years to life is the minimum, I believe, for murder. Right. I think that Davian gets lost in the investigation,

[00:42:12] gets lost in the court, gets lost in the conviction and sentence, although the judge does come down on Natalie, who not only is poor her daughter, but she's also poor me, poor me. So I think there's a narcissism there that both she and her husband Steve share there, I said it. And I think that we are, I don't say this word ever, but I think we are blessed to have Divine and Scott, Davian's sister and Davian's

[00:42:42] dad, so calmly, thoughtfully and strongly advocating for their brother and son. And Mariu and I have seen Divine speaking at his funeral and it is quite something. This young woman, because if Davian was 19 and you see from the photos when she's got to be at least two or three years younger than him, so she was young and she just makes me think, you're going to do great things.

[00:43:12] Like a terrible thing has happened but that she's going to let that feed her life and her strength. So to get back to your question, I think that Davian was discarded by Mackenzie, by Steve, by Natalie and the justice system to a certain extent, not the judge, but the fact that the sentences were concurrent kind of wipes out the sentence for his life. Nicole, what do you think about the sentencing? Did not

[00:43:42] clock that they were co-current. That feels so unjust. I saw that it seemed like she was up for parole in 2037. I don't know, that doesn't feel okay to me, that feels way too soon, especially given everything we know about the case. He is so blessed to have been adopted by such a loving family. You know him and his sister, and it seems like they had a younger sister as well, have gone through so much in their life. They were in the foster care system to be adopted by a family

[00:44:11] that seems so ten toes down for them. It just breaks my heart that he tore his ACL, he could've went pro. Yeah. And Davion, dear listeners who have not watched, Davion was black, presenting, man of color, you would say. So he was, you know, it just feels like it adds an extra layer of his erasure in this story, and why his life feels

[00:44:41] like it wasn't valuable, especially to Mackenzie. Like, if it really is how we think it went down, and it was a fight between Mackenzie and Dominic, and he was in the backseat, it even furthermore enrages you that she did not care about somebody who was not even involved in the feelings or the altercations or the intimate partner violence that was happening. So the intimate partner violence,

[00:45:10] in case you haven't seen it and won't see it, is Mackenzie towards Dom. Yes. We have film of her breaking down his door, she was cruel to him, she was dismissive to him, even her friends say so, and it seems, and you know, they broke up and got back together and broke up and got back together, and this seems to have been a period in their relationship where Dominic was saying, it is over, I'm finishing it, and as we know, the most

[00:45:40] dangerous time in an abusive relationship is as you're trying to leave, we normally see that as the woman leaving and the man retaliating, but this seems to have been the other way around, and as you say, if it was a murder-suicide, I don't think it was, and I have reasons. I think she did it, but I have another theory, but if it was a murder-suicide, Davion was nowhere in her thoughts, Davion did not count, and Davion was literally in the back seat, and that is

[00:46:10] absolutely enraging. Yes, so I have theories too, Mackenzie sits down for an interview, we don't care because she lies through her teeth, her lawyer is there, they make her look not that great, blah, blah, blah. How can you do good? You have no case here, and I presume that she did this to get her side of the story out there, but I don't know, her eyes were just darting in every direction, in every clip she was being interviewed,

[00:46:40] it was really tells on tells. We get the chair, the blank chair, she then sits into it, she says she wants to tell her side of the story, but then she can't, or she doesn't. Everything that comes out of her mouth is so carefully constructed. It's the evidence, somebody pulled her saying one thing, and it was like, the evidence shows that it was a medical event that caused the crash, something like that. It was like, girl, that's not what the evidence shows, and you

[00:47:10] clearly have a lawyer here. And Netflix, they tried to drive that bus right on top of her, because at the end of her interview, she says, oh, I just, to the family, blah, blah, blah. And then she turns around, and she's like, was that okay? I didn't want to feel like I was going too much. And we hear her lawyer in the background advising her on her statement. And it's like, they were like, okay, let's back it up just a little bit over here. And I was like, okay, I kind

[00:47:39] of appreciate that. But you know, here at Crime Scene, we don't really like talking to the perpetrators because all they do is lie to the interview. But let's get to the theory, because I I too, I was talking to friend of the pod, Kirsten McKinnon, also a podcaster about this because she asked me straight up, she texted me like, are we covering the crash? I was like, we sure are. And we were talking about it and I was like, maybe I'm a little bit sympathetic,

[00:48:09] too sympathetic, but I really, I can't, at first I was like, I don't get a sense that McKinsey really thought this through. Because if you thought you were going to just kill them and not yourself, this was not the way to do it. They're like, speeding down a mile and a half stretch at 100 miles per hour into the building, there's no way you could have thought you would survive for this. Like, it was damn lucky that she survived for this. You know what I'm saying? Like, really, really lucky. And then Kirsten was like,

[00:48:38] I don't think she intended to survive. We got to this murder suicide thing. I was like, at first I was like, she seemed way too narcissistic from a murder-suicide plan. But then we talked it out and Kirsten did remind me and we talked it out about family annihilators, you know, are normally the most narcissistic people. And when family annihilation and intimate partner violence normally leads to murder-suicides, it is normally because it's the end of the rope.

[00:49:08] And I was like, oh my god, you're right. The thing is, though, it's not a package we normally see it in. In a 17-year-old girl, that is normally not the package that we see that type of psychopathy in or whatever. And that's why it's a little hard to kind of wrap your brain around. But, you know, that's where I kind of eventually just landed that it was a murder-suicide. But I am interested here. Should we go to Nicole first? Do you have

[00:49:37] any theories, Nicole, before Sarah unloads on us? I mean, that's the T. No, you just like, the family annihilator point of view is so interesting. Because my thought was just, oh, she was in a blind rage, they were in a fight, and she was just like, I'm going to crash this car. Like, that was, she was just so mad. She just wanted the pain or whatever that she was feeling, the emotions of that moment to stop. I agree. And she was so blinded by her own emotions and

[00:50:07] feelings that she was willing to do whatever to get that feeling to stop. And she didn't care who was in the backseat. Because quite frankly, she doesn't care about anyone but herself and was raised clearly by the example of her parents that never held her accountable for even, you know, being a bully at school, which per the social media comments that were shown in the documentary, she was a documented bully, you know, to never have consequences. It leads to a life where you do only think about yourself. And this was the most extreme consequence of that is taking the lives of

[00:50:37] two other people because you're so only thinking about yourself in that moment. In my opinion, she thought she wasn't going to die. Two of her ticky-tockies, one of them, I'm just one of those girls who can do a lot of drugs and not die. Oh my god, we need to get into this part. And the other one is after the, and I refuse to call it an accident because it was

[00:51:07] deliberate, after the murders, she posted over a photograph of herself posing, of course, I'm the girl you die for. Yeah. So, having the tall, handsome, older boyfriend who buys you lots of stuff was part of her brand. So I think when he said he was going to leave her, she was in a panic because she needed him, I think,

[00:51:37] to continue, in her opinion, she needed him to continue her career. and she fantasized that if she can't have him, having a dead boyfriend, the love of your life, dying tragically is the next best thing. Now, none of this makes sense but she's 17, she has never heard no in her life and I think she never thought she was going to die. That's my opinion. But I'll also pay murder-suicide. I can agree with that.

[00:52:06] I just don't put a lot of weight on those TikTok things though. I mean, I will say it was incredibly dumb in tone death because those coming after the deaths was so stupid. The drugs comment was before the death. That's what makes me think that she didn't think she was going to die. I'm just one of those girls that I can do drugs and not die. That was before which is, you know, it's slim. Okay. Right. It's slim. Like, I mean, all 17-year-olds think they're not going to die, right?

[00:52:37] I mean, that's what I, you know.

[00:53:09] Exactly. in the universe, I'm not realizing how this can come off and affect my victims' families. But I don't, I thought some of that was just kind of, kind of dumb. Like, it's that using people's social media to, to pull a label on them. And it's just like, we all post stupid stuff sometimes. I don't know. Nicole? But at the same time, it's like,

[00:53:38] why didn't her parents take that phone away? You know, they were like, don't talk to the cops without a lawyer, but you're going to give your child unfettered access to the internet. Like, how many times do we see a big brother play or tweet something racist in 2016 and it comes back? Like, same, same ethos should go here. Anything that you put online will be said and used against you. Wiping her digital footprint immediately. But like Sarah

[00:54:08] perfectly stated, she was getting that rub off of the death and the whole Google Maps, McKenzie, Strongville, Ohio thing is crazy. That I'm the girl you die for stuff, that was stupid and very inappropriate. Unfortunately, it was a trend. You know what I'm saying? It was a trend. It was a trend. So many people are doing it. So if you're an influencer, you're going to jump on the trends because you want those views. Her dumbass should have thought of that

[00:54:38] before she jumped on it. You are not these other girls. Yeah, it's like the costumes being a reference to a rap person, but you've got to look at it and go, yeah, it does look like we're corpses. Maybe we'll wear something else. She just wanted to, she just wanted to do what she wanted to do. That's the story of this entire thing. Exactly. Nail head thing. One of our listeners, Joelle, who was one of our listeners who asked us to

[00:55:07] cover this property. Hi, Mari and Sarah. This is Joelle. I'm just recording a few thoughts here about the crash, which I just watched on Netflix. I found both Davion and Dominic's families to be incredibly moving, particularly Davion's sister. Just throughout the documentary, every time she came on, I found her to be really compelling. I found both of Mackenzie's parents to be infuriating and incredibly dismissive towards anything negative that was said or suggested. Don't even get me

[00:55:37] started about Natalie's statement of the trial and dismissing Davion and his family in ways that were reprehensible. The documentary itself, I think it was very well made. I found it easy to follow. They interviewed way more people than I thought, including Mackenzie and her lawyer being off to the side at the end, which was definitely interesting. I wonder when that interview was taped, whether it was before her appeal or attempted an appeal.

[00:56:07] Just the interweaving, how it started with the crash, the body cam footage, I think it was well shot. My heart just breaks for those families, all the families involved in this case. I should say the families of the victims more than anyone else. I found it a very compelling watch. Thanks, Joelle. We love to hear from our listeners, so please feel free to send us a speak pipe with a review. It doesn't

[00:56:37] have to be a property that we're covering, something that you've watched, something that you want to bring up on a true crime story from your hometown or just some compliments. Marie Joelle also recommended that we watch Mean Girls Murder, which is a series on Hulu. Season 2, Episode 7, is called Under the Influence and covers this case. How was it? Oh, it definitely, this is what we referenced a lot. It has a lot more information on

[00:57:06] Mackenzie's demeanor at school. They interviewed people who were her friends. Mean Girl, perhaps? Yes. They interviewed people who were her friends and people who were not her friends. So I think it does create a more complex view of Mackenzie as a person and how she actually acted at school. However, if you're, if you want any more additional, like, evidence or info to the incident, there was not anything else here. I just had, I

[00:57:36] was just like, we just have to go with what we know and it's, it's not circumstantial evidence, but it's no, I mean, smoking, smoking gun, right? I mean, foot to the floor. Smoking gun. Yeah. Foot to the floor is that smoking gun as you're going to get. There's, there's no more evidence to really break down. But if you want more backstory on Mackenzie prior to the crash, I do think it is worth watching. What do you think, Sarah?

[00:58:06] Yeah, I agree. I mean, we start with three people who don't like her. Very different angle. They're not afraid of us. No. A lot more emphasis on the wealth of the neighborhood. Interestingly, in the structure, they give us the crash, but they don't tell us that Mackenzie is alive till halfway through the episode. Whereas here, with this documentary, they told us basically straight away because the first responders discover that she's breathing. So I think they wanted it to be a

[00:58:36] twist. Oh my God, she's alive. Of course, when you know she's alive, it's like, that's not a twist. But what they do try to do, which I did not appreciate, was the narrator says, who doesn't like the most popular girl in school? Turns out, just about everyone. So they do this feint towards that the breaks were tampered with and they have stupid reenactments of girls looking at

[00:59:05] the girl who's supposed to be Mackenzie. So that was a distraction. It's mild enough not to be irritating, but if you watch this one, you'll go, we don't need that. But I understand mean girls murder knows the assignment. And it did what it does extremely well. Yep, they did it very well. So, you know, 10 out of 10. We do learn that Mackenzie and her friends had a bitch list, a hit list of everybody that

[00:59:35] had ever wronged them. So we do get a lot more overt Mackenzie was a nightmare, whereas with this one, it's a little more neutral and we draw from actions about Mackenzie. But definitely watch it. It was like Regina George was one of her idols. Like they wanted their own burn book. Yeah, it gave mean girls meets euphoria vibes.

[01:00:04] How she lived her life beforehand. All right, let's get to our ratings. Nicole, how many magnifying glasses are you going to rate the crash out of a possible five? And you can give any brief like your final thoughts as well. Yeah, I mean, I'm very excited to get into more material about this case because it was one of those ones where as soon as I finished the documentary, I was on Wikipedia, I was reading, but I did not get the tea that you guys shared that she

[01:00:34] had, you know, an even more sordid history, especially when it comes to her classmates. We just got bits and pieces of that in the movie. It's just crazy. Something that stuck with me from this documentary is when Davion's father said, show me your friends, show me your future. And it's crazy to know that sometimes the company you keep can be your downfall and being around people, you know, that respect your time, that are good, empathetic people, you know, that have hearts that care for more

[01:01:03] than just themselves. It's just scary how, you know, the extreme end of it could really be leading to someone's negligence. Resulting in the loss of your life, just so much to dive in. The story itself was really just like heartbreaking for the families, lucky that we got to meet and learn more about the unfortunate individuals who passed away in this situation. Great story, but for all the bad reasons, I'm going to give it a three and a half.

[01:01:32] I think just because the visceral nature of the crime and some of the points that Sarah brought up about how it like really was like that gut punch took away from it, but I do think it was well done. Sarah, how many magnifying glasses are you going to rate this documentary out of a possible five? Yeah, I think I'm going to land on three and a half. It's very well made, which I always thought, but I did come at the beginning going like, what are we doing? So you have talked me off that ledge. Don't worry, dear listeners, crime scene will continue.

[01:02:03] But I think, I think, again, we often have runs of things. I think we've had a bit of a tough run of documentaries and I think that what comes to mind is people have real problems and Mackenzie was so frivolous and yet she caused the death of those two young men and cannot be forgiven for that. And I have thoughts about her parents, which are, you know, X rated.

[01:02:33] But yeah, I'm going to give it a three and a half. I was thinking of giving it a three and a half and not recommending it, but I think as we've talked it through, I will recommend it, a soft recommend from me. It's not essential, but you won't be sorry. Well, you might be sorry you watched it. I can't guarantee. Murray, how about you? How many magnifying glasses are you going to rate the crash? Overall, I think giving it what I want to give it from watching the property itself, not from the rest of my side

[01:03:03] because I do believe that them leaving out some stuff is what kind of does bring it down. But as a property itself, I think it hits all the notes. I think it gives you a visceral reaction to what happens. I think it lays out all of the major players who are here. We get all of the families for better after worse. We also let them we give some people some rope to hang themselves, so to speak. We even get we

[01:03:32] we get a McKenzie interview here. Didn't need it, but that's fine. It's OK. And I thought this was I I get why so many people watched it and talked about it. I do think they did a good job in making it water cooler talk. So I will give it a four because I think it did what it needed to do. It did what it needed to do. It got people talking. There's so many people online talking about did she do it? Did she not do it? Factions and stuff like that.

[01:04:02] Now, again, did it totally represent one side? No, it didn't. But they were trying to get that conversation. Where do you fall? Do you think she did it intentionally? Do you think she did it? And if that's what they're trying to do it, they accomplished it very well. I will definitely recommend it and recommend the mean girls episode as well. I sent that episode to Kirsten, told her to watch it as well. So very effective documentary. And again, it was only an hour, what,

[01:04:33] hour 34, Sarah, something like that. Yes, we love it. Thank you. Very palatable. Very palatable. All right. So let's move on to our recommendations. Nicole, what do you have to recommend to our listeners? I mean, we are just so blessed as a nation to have a new Kacey Musgraves album. Middle of Nowhere by Kacey Musgraves came out, I think, a few weeks ago. And man, she puts the See You Next Tuesday in country. That's all I'll say. Songs are really

[01:05:02] fun. They're a beat. You know, she went through a lot over the past couple of years. And these songs just have like a lightness and a funness to them. My favorite one is Mexico Honey. So if the girls are listening to Kacey, hit me up. We have lots to discuss and hopefully we'll win the Ticketmaster War and see her on tour. But yes, big recommendation to Middle of Nowhere by Kacey Musgraves. Sarah, what about you? What do you have to recommend to our listeners? Well, let me take you on a little journey. Many years ago when I

[01:05:32] was probably McKenzie's age, so last century, I watched a film called Lord of the Flies. It had been made in 1963. No, I did not watch it then, but I probably watched it slightly inappropriately too young. It had an incredible effect on me. It's directed by Peter Brook, which theatre people will know as the iconic, legendary theatre director.

[01:06:02] I also read the book, which I loved. I probably read it several times. Lo and behold, Jack Thorne, who you will know as the creator of Adolescence, has made a new TV series, Lord of the Flies. It's on Stan in Australia and Netflix in the US. It is incredible. I want people to watch it and come and talk to me about it. At Crime Scene, we are eager to hear your feedback and suggestions for future episodes. You can subscribe by going to CrimeScenePod.com or

[01:06:32] search Crime Scene, that's S-E-E-N, wherever you get your podcasts. You can follow Crime Scene everywhere at CrimeScenePod or email us at CrimeScenePod.gmail.com. You can support us at buymeacoffee.com slash CrimeScenePod. Members are very lucky. The June member extra will be the ability to watch us live as we record our main feed episode. So it gets all edited

[01:07:02] cleverly, cutting out all the flubs, all the swears, all the chats that we have in between sections and the inappropriate laughing. You will get all of that. We are going to be watching The Nightmare Upstairs, What Happened to Ty and Bryn on Hulu and our guest will be Chappelle. All that information and the link will be available in the members portal at buymeacoffee.com slash CrimeScenePod. So if you would like to join us, you would need to join by 9pm

[01:07:31] Eastern on Friday, June the 5th. You can also support us by buying our merch. Yes, we have Crime Scene merch, Crime Scene Tumblers. They're available at my shop. You can go to Mari Crafts Too Much at bigcartel.com while you're there. You can look at my other book-themed Tumblers as well. If you don't find your favorite book, let me know and I'll make something just for you. The link to the store will be in the show notes.

[01:08:01] Just as important. You can also support us for free. For free! Please rate and review Crime Scene so others can find us wherever you listen to your podcast. Give us five stars. Five stars! Five stars only. Your support makes a huge difference. Nicole, what do you have going on and where can the people find you? Just hanging out, you know, on the internet at Behind the Secret wherever you go on the internet.

[01:08:30] I'm there, usually yapping about something. Sarah, where can the people find you? The people can follow me on Blue Sky at Sarah Carradine. Over on Babes in the Conclave, Annabelle Fiddler and I have just finished covering the Traders Turkey Yay and we're going to start another non-English speaking version, either Denmark 2 or Hungary 3. It's going to be up to the babes to vote on that and tell us what to watch. And I sat in for Mel Barrett on her show with Rebecca Lavoie. Something's off.

[01:08:59] It was super fun and I was so smart. I think. I don't know. You tell me. What about you, Mari? Of course, over on Recap Kickback, you can find me and Chappelle talking about whatever we want. But last week we talked about Is God Is, the feature movie that is in theaters that we had so much fun talking about. Along with, of course, some pop culture news. So if you want to hear that, go to RecapKickback.com in order to subscribe

[01:09:29] wherever you get your podcasts or go to YouTube.com slash Recap Kickback. And of course, over there, Chappelle is doing a whole bunch of stuff. Him and Gio wrapped up elementary coverage. He had coverage of Welcome to Derry with Latonya. A lot of stuff going on. Me and him in June, we will be pulling double duty talking about the vampire Lestat and House of the Dragons season three. So we are so excited for that. So make sure you're following us and subscribe for those

[01:09:58] conversations coming up. Sarah, what are we watching next week? Next time on Crime Scene, we're covering My Killer Father, The Green River Murders with Katie from A Date with Dateline. Watch it on Paramount Plus, who have not been good to us. This might be their last chance, Mari. This might be their last chance. But you watch it as well and send us your comments and questions. Thanks to Nicole for joining us. Will from America from the theme music. And all those active parents out there.

[01:10:28] And active siblings. Shout out to Divine Flanagan. Amen. Sister. Until next time. Place. Closed.