Maternal Instinct | Crime Seen episode 205

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[00:02:48] I'm Mari Forth. I'm Sarah Carradine. And this is Crime Seen, the True Crime Review Podcast, where we get to the heart of how true crime stories are told. Two weeks ago, we discussed Michael Jackson's The Verdict with Chappelle. Well, listener Naima sent us a message. Hey, Mari and Sarah. Once again, great mini review of the MJ doc on Netflix. I wasn't planning on watching it, but pause the pod to watch it before listening to your mini review. I was done after one episode.

[00:03:19] So glad that you all pointed out that this doc was by the same folks that did Take Care of Maya. That explains a lot. But FYI, the credibility of those filmmakers has been rigorously questioned, most notably by Andrea Dunlop, host of the podcast, Nobody Should Believe Me. The podcast is mostly about Munchausen by proxy and related medical child abuse. But Andrea does a great job at analyzing the Take Care of Maya doc. I find her reporting well balanced and comprehensive.

[00:03:49] You should take a listen. As a child welfare expert and professor, I find her very credible. Also, bravo to Chappelle, another fave of mine, for catching the omitted video. Another great pod. Thanks, ladies. Thank you so much, Naima. I love when Naima writes in. She is an avid listener and supporter of a lot of the podcasts I'm on. Shout out to her listening to Mavs and Love at First Sight.

[00:04:17] Honestly, Naima, if you haven't, make sure you go to Recap Kickback to listen to me and Chappelle and the good friend AJ Norris talk about the full MJ documentary. That way you do not have to watch the last two episodes. And you can really listen to me, Chappelle, and AJ really deep dive into it. If you loved our mini here, you'll really love the full review on Recap Kickback. So thank you so, so much for being a supporter. We really appreciate you.

[00:04:47] Yeah, it's in Technicolor and Dolby surround sound, so you will enjoy it. Thank you so much. Of course, that episode was open to supporters to watch live and contribute to the chat. And Mildred was there. She writes, I absolutely loved hearing this live and getting the behind-the-scenes perspective. So glad I could be part of it. I hope you do this again, maybe as a monthly event. It was such a treat to hear my favorite hosts discuss and analyze the topic in real time. Hmm, a monthly event, Mari.

[00:05:17] That's quite a good idea. Yep. So make sure you're subscribed to figure out if we're coming back, right? And we also discussed We Are Jeni with Ellen Marsh. Michelle commented, I heard a recent interview with Jenny about the documentary and she had input into the animation as she liked that depiction of her alters. Anything for Jenny. If she liked it, now I like it. Right.

[00:05:48] Last week, I discussed the murder of Rachel Nickell with Rebecca Lavoie and third chair Sarah D. Bunting and also the scripted version of the story, The Witness. Mari, I missed you. Don't go away again. No, I can't make that promise. If I can, I will go right back away. I was living life in the sun in the Dominican Republic celebrating my wedding anniversary. So if I could do it, I would do it all over again.

[00:06:18] However, I am so glad to be back. And I too watched The Murderer of Rachel Nickell. I did not get a chance to watch The Witness. Don't do it. It's horrible. Don't watch it. It's terrible. And that's fine. And I will not because I take our ratings and our suggestions seriously, as you should too, listener. But the documentary, The Murderer of Rachel Nickell was so, it was gripping. It was heart-wrenching.

[00:06:45] It was just fascinating. You know, more police screw-ups. Hey! Woo! Woo! But all that to say, the input from Rachel's partner and her son really just drove the story home. You know, as a story I had not heard of, just the brutality of it all.

[00:07:11] And then, of course, the subsequent wrongful conviction of a suspect to then finding the real perpetrator. And then just the record scratch moment of once they find the real perpetrator and then finding out that, hey, if the justice system had only done its job, then Rachel and two other victims wouldn't have died. And it just pisses you off, to be quite honest.

[00:07:40] He seemed like a nice fellow. So when they interviewed him about the serial rapes, he seemed like a nice fellow. According to the police. Exactly. So, yes. Very, very annoying. Police gonna police a cab. So, yeah. Other than that, strong recommend for the murder of Rachel and Nicole. I will give it... I will give it four and a half. Yeah, we all gave it four and a half too. So, perfect.

[00:08:10] 4.5 across the board. Perfect. This week, we watched Maternal Instinct on Netflix. It was directed by Jessica Dimmick. We covered previous works of hers, including Captive Audience and Thoughts and Prayers. Oh. Interesting. One of our favorites. One of our favorites. Thoughts and prayers. Love it. Yes, yes. And joining us today is the other half of Black Girls Talking TV.

[00:08:38] I am so proud to welcome to the scene a psychologist, Victoria. Victoria, what's up? Hello. I am so excited to be here. Mari has been a guest on Black Girls Talking TV for so long. And I have to say, I am not a true crime girlie, but this was a really good documentary. So, I'm happy to discuss it.

[00:09:06] More excited to just share space with you all on a different platform and discuss psychology for a different reason, you know? So, I'm excited. Yeah. I think it's going to be fun. Fun and sad all at the same time. Exactly. Let's do like we do on Black Girls Talking TV. Give me your, we need your bonafides, your CT. Tell the people what you do.

[00:09:35] I am Dr. Victoria Davis. I received my graduate degree from Virginia State University. I am licensed in the state of Illinois and New York. And I have been practicing or just in the field now for about 10 years. So, yeah. I'm excited to add to the conversation from that lens and perspective. And just FYI, I'm not here to diagnose. I got to give that forewarning.

[00:10:05] I'm not here to diagnose. But we can speculate and discuss and talk all the things and assume that's what we'll be doing today. Yes. Yes. All opinions are for entertainment purposes only. I know you said it a little bit, but we always have to ask. What's your true crime origin story? Do you love it? Do you hate it? Did we drag you here? Let the people know.

[00:10:32] You know, I have been dragged to true crime spaces several times. My god sister, anytime she is doing my hair, she is my loctician. She always got some true crime stuff going on on the screen. And so that is my highest involvement into true crime. I did watch the Nature Boy documentary. I watched the Diddy documentary. I watched this documentary. And every single time I watch one, I'm like, I can enjoy it. I actually enjoyed this. It's like, I want to watch another.

[00:11:02] And so, I don't know. Maybe I'm putting my toe in. My toe is in the water a little bit. You know what I'm saying? It's not fully submerged. I have to be brought to the table. So, yeah. I would be happy to come back. I just don't like the gory stuff. You know, that's really the thing. I think what this has taught me is like, true crime is not necessarily like watching the crime happen. It's about discussing these things that have happened in history and have had major impacts on people's lives.

[00:11:31] And so, I would say, if anything, you know, thank you for educating me on what true crime even is, you know? So, there's that. Yes. I'm so glad you can be here. So, Victoria, you did mention here. We had your other half on, Kumaria, talking about the Nature Boy documentary.

[00:11:54] And our listeners should know, if you listened to that episode, the whole time we were screaming, where is Dr. Victoria to tell us what is going on with these people? And you said you watched it. So, if you could just give us your brief overall thoughts about the Nature Boy documentary and any comments you think might be relevant. We are, we want to hear them.

[00:12:15] Yeah, I think the biggest theme across the people who participated, who were led to the cult, and then also, is it Elegio? Elegio Bishop himself? Is extreme vulnerability due to some very risky circumstances, whether it was childhood, whether it was life transition.

[00:12:41] But for Nature Boy himself, what was very fascinating was that he was displaying these very disturbing behavioral issues as a child. And how it was kind of categorized as ADHD, which a lot of times happens for little black boys instead of trying to get to the root of what's actually happening. Where for him, it was a lot of chronic instability.

[00:13:08] He was not raised, you know, by his biological parents at some points in his life. He was, he got exposed to a lot of different things that children his age, his siblings' age should not be, you know, exposed to.

[00:13:24] And so what happens down a life trajectory when you've had all of that exposure to these unfortunate circumstances and it's not treated well or there's no interventions to help maintain or foster a healthy development, right? And how personality disorders and personality dysfunctions begin to foster because of that.

[00:13:47] And then for the people who participated, they all just kind of talked about how like, you know, I'm in this life transition or I didn't grow up in the best, you know, environment. I wanted it out from what was happening. And so they were extremely vulnerable, extremely susceptible to, it could have been to any belief system, just something that gave them some type of hope, right?

[00:14:10] They just so happened to fall victim to what Nature Boy was saying and then ended up being perpetrators of the own violence that they were experiencing. So it was a lot, it was definitely a lot to unpack in that one. And I watched a little bit of the YouTube version and was just in awe, you know, as a psychologist going through training and things like that.

[00:14:32] Sometimes you think you've seen the vast majority of pathology that's out there and then you see something like this and you're like, what the F? Quite literally, you know, even with this documentary, it started off and I'm like, oh, this lady on the side of the road just gave birth. And then we find out she, it's a lot going on here, you know? And so I'm always just like in awe that these things, that people can get to this place and like, how does it happen?

[00:15:02] How, like, why did it happen? And so that was me the entire time watching Nature Boy. Like, it's a lot here. It's a lot here. Yeah, exactly. I think I'm on like part 42 of 47. I'm almost done. And yeah, and then I had to put it all on pause. I had to stop. I was like, I gotta get out of this. I gotta get out of these people's lives for a minute.

[00:15:31] I need a pause because this is too much. Yeah, the documentary itself, like we said, we found very fascinating. But that YouTube, that 47 part YouTube series is... Yeah, Netflix didn't do it justice. For sure. You know, because the series is insane. And it gives a lot of context. That is just a story you can't...

[00:16:00] It has to be on the ground investigation 47 parts. Because there's no way you can condense all of that, everything, into the neat three parts that most of these big streamers want. But, you know, they did an okay job of it. But yes, thank you. Thank you absolutely so much about your thoughts. We really appreciate that. But, you know, we're here to talk about maternal instinct. I know that's what the people came to listen.

[00:16:31] So, to the crime. In 2020, then 27-year-old Taylor Parker murdered Reagan Simmons Hancock by stabbing her 113 times and cutting her 36-week-old fetus out of her womb. Reagan was 21 at the time. Her three-year-old daughter was in the house when it happened. Taylor fled the scene with the baby, Braxlin. But the baby did not survive.

[00:16:59] Taylor faked being pregnant for nearly 11 months leading up to the killing, fooling her boyfriend Wade and some of the community where they were living. She was already the mother of two children and had had a hysterectomy. Taylor was charged with kidnapping and capital murder for the deaths of Reagan and Braxlin. She was sentenced to death.

[00:17:21] After the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals denied her appeal, the U.S. Supreme Court upheld the death penalty in May of this year. So, very heavy topics. Victoria, we always ask our guests first. What were your overall thoughts of the property? This is a feature-length documentary. Runtime is a little bit over an hour and a half. So, what were your thoughts? I thought it was neatly packaged.

[00:17:51] It didn't really leave me with too many questions about how things happened. So, I thought the story was well told. I thought the perspectives of everybody involved was nice. I was amazed at the composure that Reagan's family had during the documentary to have to sit there and relive and discuss these things.

[00:18:14] And I was, you know, in my heart, I was just like, I hope that being able to put this on another platform and share light to... Because almost it serves as a warning to others, right? Like, if you feel something is off, you might need to lean into your gut, right? Despite what you would like to believe along with the person that you, you know, love or have grown to like at least.

[00:18:40] And so, I was hoping as they were telling the story that at least, at the very, very least, there was some healing involved for them. But like I said, overall, I thought it was neatly packaged. And it didn't leave me wondering too much more. My mouth was just on the floor, quite literally. Because I was like, I had to like go back a little bit. Like, wait, like she actually like stabbed her? Like killed her? Like, like, so, yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:19:10] Sarah, what about you? What are your overall thoughts of this documentary? I liked, well, light, you know, such a distressing subject. But I think it's extremely well made. We know Jessica Dimmick from some things that we've covered. Also, Texas Killing Fields, which we did not like at all. But we did like Captive Audience. It's really good. And Thoughts and Prayers was an absolute revelation, I thought. We liked that very much.

[00:19:37] So I was looking forward to seeing what she did with the topic. And I don't think she let me down at all. She's extremely good, this director, at the placement of information. So she parcels out the information as you need it. So we didn't know that Reagan was dead. We're talking to her family. We're talking to her mother. We're talking to her sister. We're hearing the stories. She's not there. Hmm. Maybe, maybe.

[00:20:04] And then we find out she's dead through one of the absolute worst 911 calls we have ever, ever heard. And again, the placement, others would want to put that at the beginning of the documentary. Right. Jessica Dimmick saves it to where it works. And then, of course, we're thinking the baby, the baby, the baby. And the way that information comes out on body cam of that cop just saying, did you hear the baby died? And I don't cry a lot. But I sobbed through a lot of this.

[00:20:34] And I'm not even a mother. So, yeah. I just think that she, this director, is really showing her mastery here. And it was very distinct to me that she, I felt very safe with her. And I think when you're dealing with such disturbing topics, you want to feel that you're in good hands and that you are being taken care of to an extent. And so one of the things she does is this very careful and considered parceling out of the information.

[00:21:04] I thought it was really well made. And I didn't know the story. And it was astonishing. It was astonishing. Yes. Several things. I completely agree with you. Thank you for really breaking down the documentary aspect. I am just going to say, oh, my God, I fucking hate this lady, dog. Like, oh, my God.

[00:21:34] Like, as you know, as a mother, as a health care worker. But as somebody who didn't know this case, I didn't know where it was going because a few things. For those who may not know, a woman is most at risk in her life when she is pregnant. Especially here in the U.S. But first off, being here in the U.S., the maternal death rates are just abysmal, especially if you are a black or a woman of color.

[00:22:04] Secondly, intimate partner violence is a high cause of pregnant women's death. Again, this is in no particular order. And then third, fetal abduction is actually quite common, unfortunately. And when I say quite common, I don't mean like occurring every day. But it is more common than it should be. When people should not just be trying to cut babies out of other people.

[00:22:34] But it is actually, unfortunately, very common. And I've listened to so much true crime over the years. I've heard of so many fetal abduction cases that I was not sure if this was one that I had heard of or not. And sadly, this wasn't. So I, off the top of my head, I know three separate fetal abduction cases. And they all have turned.

[00:23:02] We covered one last year, I think it was. Yes. Worst roommate ever, I believe it was. Yeah, exactly. And so that's why the way that Jessica Dimmick unleashes this information or slowly reveals it is very pertinent. Because one of the first fetal abduction cases that came to mind was one where a mother was attacked.

[00:23:28] Her fetus was cut from her body, but both her and her baby did end up surviving. And the perpetrator ended up going to jail. There is actually one case where the perpetrator tried to do a fetal abduction on a mom. And she actually fought back and killed the perpetrator. There. That was one of the ones. I think that was covered on Snapped. The worst roommate ever case that we covered. The victim does end up dying, but the baby survives.

[00:23:58] And what pisses me off about this lady here, Taylor Parker. Like, you killed Reagan selfishly so you could uphold this lifestyle, this lie that you had gotten so deep into. And then you also killed her baby Braxlin. Like, you weren't even good at the fetal abduction. Like, I hate you. And even more so, she's such a dummy bitch. I don't care. I'm coming at her.

[00:24:28] Because how are you going to cut a baby out of a woman and then drive to Oklahoma? Like, it's like, I think I looked it up. It's like at least an hour or so away, I want to say. Like, what was your thought process? You didn't even think this through. Like, you were horrible. Can't even do crime correctly. Yeah, no, seriously. I definitely was like, no, why would you be getting on a road trip if you just delivered your baby in the car? That didn't even make no sense. It made no sense. You would go to the most local hospital, if anything.

[00:24:58] Exactly. Exactly. Like, what do you, if I'm the police officer, I'm like, what do you mean you're trying to drive from Texas to Oklahoma with a fresh 35-minute baby in your arm? Like, you clearly didn't think this through. And so, again, reel it back in. The documentary itself, I thought, yeah, I agree with everything that Sarah said. I found it engrossing.

[00:25:28] I found it enraging. And I found the information delivered in such a way that literally when this thing dropped, we had immediately two people emailed us or DMed us saying, are you guys covering maternal instinct? Are you covering maternal instinct? My neighbor from across the street, walking her baby, came over like, girl, have you seen maternal instinct? And I was like, I sure, I sure have. And I sure will. I mean, I sure will.

[00:25:55] Like, it was, it's such, it's buzz. Netflix does a really good job when it comes to getting buzz for their true crime properties. I don't know if people remember or you should remember that one part of the true crime boom that came back in 2015 was making a murderer. You know, making the murderer kind of put the true crime documentary back on the spot. And so Netflix coming so hot off of the crash, which has been such a cultural touch point all of a sudden,

[00:26:23] and now having another one here with maternal instinct, at least they are doing it in a very well produced way. Like the, these are, we are, it's, it's, the production level is very good here. I will say, I have heard that Netflix may have, like, there was a lot more to the story that Netflix didn't touch on, which probably because of the tight hour 30 something. Yeah.

[00:26:52] I'm so glad we didn't get a three part one. Very glad. I am too. So I was thinking about, I actually had a suggestion. Another, another one of my friends was like, Hey, I saw that they said Netflix didn't cover a lot. Here's another podcast that covers it. So I, I was thinking about listening to that before coming on here, but then I was like, no, our job is to talk about this documentary. And sometimes, you know, Sarah, I let my aforeknowledge get in the way.

[00:27:22] So my plan is after this, I'm going to go back and listen to some more stuff to see what might have been left out. And maybe come back next week and talk about, I felt like there was anything that was pertinent that was left out. I mean, I think it's, it's interesting when we do our side Googling and we say, oh, this was left out or that was left out. But that's not always a bad thing.

[00:27:48] The filmmaker's job is to make a judicious decision, particularly when it's a feature length documentary, is to make a judicious decision about how much of the story to tell. There's always going to be more. And there's a very big difference between something like this, making us say, oh, I want to find out. This is so interesting. Let me find out more. And something like take a drink, Jared from Subway, which we found out more about from reading the Wikipedia for five minutes and therefore failed in its job.

[00:28:18] But I think we could put that in the grab bag next week, that podcast. Yeah, that would be great. But so we got a lot of talking heads here, a lot of people very close to the case. But I feel like we got to start with with Wade Griffin himself. Wade Griffin, who is Taylor Parker's boyfriend at the time. Victoria, what were your thoughts on Wade Griffin as a talking head here?

[00:28:48] What were my thoughts? I struggled with forming an opinion on Wade because he was the closest to Taylor. He also received a lot of information from others who experienced Taylor in her multiple forms and did not listen. You know, I struggled with the not listening parts of Wade.

[00:29:16] I also empathized with Wade because when you are so in it and not even not even because of love, because he said he was never in love with her. And I actually believe him when he said that. But I'm like, were you just so wrapped into this idea of what your life was going to be that you ignored? Everything else? Everything else?

[00:29:42] Or was it because you saw that Taylor was emotionally unstable that you felt like you could not address things full on? Like, what was it that kept you wrapped up in this storyline longer than what science says is typical for a pregnancy? Like, once we get to nine months, two weeks, I'm like, bitch, it's a lie going on.

[00:30:08] Like, at the very least, you're going to have to, I'm like, we're not kicking her out the house. We're not breaking up with her. We're not, if you don't let me see your stomach right now, it's over. Like, what? Why? Why? You have your mother telling you, you have your best friend's wife telling you, you have other women telling you, you have her ex-best friends coming forward and saying, hey, she had a hysterectomy. This isn't possible.

[00:30:37] And you're allowing this lady to tell you over and over again, no, I'm insecure. I don't want to be touching that. She wasn't insecure when y'all was fucking. Why is she all of a sudden insecure now? Because she carrying a child. So I struggle to form an opinion about him because I do, I view him as a victim of the circumstance.

[00:30:58] I have not, and I watched this a couple of days ago, I have not sat with it long enough to say like exactly what I think about way because I'm on the fence of like you motherfucker. You are a part of this. And also, damn, like the trauma. The trauma that you have had to endure. I will say that I watched it twice. Look at that. Look at me. I was able to watch it twice.

[00:31:29] And my thoughts on Wade is Taylor picked the perfect type of man because Wade gives off avoidant. He gives off like, I don't want to deal with this. I'm gonna go catch some hogs. Like, Wade, I actually think that Wade saw the red flags, but just could not disentangle.

[00:31:58] Like he's one of those men who just could not pull the cord, could not disentangle, especially since Taylor is blitzing him. I really sat down on my second watch, really looked at the timeline. They meet in like November 2019. I believe it is. It's like November, end of October 2019. And by January of 2020, she's coming up with the I'm pregnant lie. Because even in those two months, like we said, Wade is not in love.

[00:32:28] Wade is going along to get along. And Taylor moved in with him. I think they said what? Within five weeks or so. And Wade himself says that that was a little quick for me, but he just he's so avoidant. Tailored with her big personality and how she is.

[00:32:48] She bulldozes through him and uses social media almost as a tool of this intimidation, maybe abuse. Like posting all of your life updates on Facebook is another way to keep that person with you. Because if we break up, now I got to go on Facebook and tell everybody we've broken up. And people don't really want to do that.

[00:33:14] You don't want your quote unquote failure blasted on Facebook if your relationship falls, if you, you know, if you lose a job, stuff like that, you know. But with her coming in immediately, boom, boom, boom, we're in a relationship. Look, we're look how happy we are, Facebook. Look how happy we are. Look how happy we are. And it makes it harder and harder for him to disentangle.

[00:33:38] And then when, when probably from the first signs of him disentangling, she's like, oh, I'm a millionaire. I'm a millionaire. Wait, wait, I'm a millionaire. You don't want to leave. I'm a millionaire. You know, she dangles the millionaire carrot when she can't stretch out. Because again, November, they meet December at Christmas. She's telling their whole family, hey, guys, I'm a millionaire. We bought some trucks.

[00:34:07] We bought a side by side. I bought his mama car. Oh, on Christmas. Guess what? We're about to buy a $4 million property. Again, making a huge announcement in front of his whole family. And it's like, she's about to buy me a $4 million ranch. Yeah, she's annoying. But you know, we're also still having sex. I'll go along to get along. He's a go along to get along type of guy. And she realized that.

[00:34:35] And she just blitzes it. Blitz, blitz, blitz. Because of course, by the time Christmas comes and they're asking, hey, cars are getting repoed. The money's not showing up. The lie about the mom is wearing thin. The lawyers are calling Shelly, the fake assistant. And nothing's moving on this property. The flags are flagging. The red flags are flagging. And then what do you do for a country boy, a country loving man? You tell him you're pregnant.

[00:35:05] Then you trap him. Never mind that you don't have a uterus. Never mind that. You have to trap him. And it, again, this whole, the Taylor's whole thing is just like, it feels like saying a lie, not thinking it through and just being like, it'll eventually work out. And as much as I want to give Wade grief about it, he, I think, was just the perfect type of man to fall victim to this.

[00:35:35] Sarah, thoughts on Wade? Oh, this man. I mean, he, if you look up construct in the dictionary, there's a photograph of Wade. He's just, he seemed so, well, again, I mean, here I am on the other side of a film looking at someone I've never met. But he seemed very passive. I mean, I was very sorry for him. And yes, he's a victim. And we see again and again men love bombing women.

[00:36:04] So I suppose, you know, sisters are doing it. We've had the crash and now this is where we have female perpetrators. Yay. Women can do anything men can do. Women in men fields. Yeah. Women in male-dominated fields. So he is a victim. So it's curious to know, was he like that before? Or was, has this experience been such a shock for him that he has now become passive?

[00:36:30] But I think Mama Connie, his mother, who, you know, MVP, she is fantastic. I, she, her barely restrained rage is something to be seen. And one of my favorite things that she says is, well, then I expected Taylor to fake a miscarriage. So she's got it all sorted. She knows who Taylor is. And what a good step that would have been. We must all agree.

[00:36:56] Better to fake a miscarriage than to go and kill Regan and Braxland. Absolutely. But I thought Wade was certainly given enough time. And it was like a little sponge. You put your hand and there's no resistance. I didn't know who he was. We got more from his friend Cody, who is shocked, shocked that Wade hasn't had sex for four months. Shocked. So I think even Cody figured out who Taylor was.

[00:37:24] So my question is really, there's a lot of people figuring out who she is. What was it that he, that meant he didn't listen? Was there a fantasy going on in his head of this life with a woman that he says he didn't love? Did he persuade himself that he loved her? I found Wade a complete mystery. And interestingly, he talks about being somewhat shunned in his community because of what Taylor did.

[00:37:54] And I think, yeah, because if you'd figured her out, she wouldn't have had to do it. But one thing I wanted to touch on, Mari, you had said like the passivity that he displayed. And I was more so thinking for him, right? Like he's not like this conventionally attractive cowboy. And I think that was the first thing that Taylor might have preyed on, right? He's a bigger guy.

[00:38:19] And I know like in the South and in the deep country, some of the rules don't necessarily apply. It's like, are you a cowboy? Are you going to fetch the cow? Do you do the do? You know, and so that's what makes you attractive. And so I was wondering for Wade, did he see like, oh, this is the it girl. She comes from money. She's pretty. You know, she has this vibrant personality.

[00:38:43] She captures a broom, all of these other things that kind of kept him warped in this fake identity where he just could not push through it regardless. I do think that he overall is a passive guy because we always see him do like in action is his job. You know what I'm saying? And so he seems just very to himself. He's not somebody who expresses a lot of opinions, probably doesn't form a lot.

[00:39:12] He might be in his head a lot. And that is just how he lives his life. I'm going to go fetch the hogs, do the do and and that's it. But I think it was more so like, oh, my life can change. Like having this trophy of Taylor next to me gives me some sort of value. And I saw I think the both of them were struggling with this idea of abandonment from one another for their own personal gains in some sort of sense.

[00:39:42] I think Wade just has a hard time communicating what that gain potentially was because even his friends were like, oh, you know, this is a good thing. Like she's she's a cool girl. Everybody loves her. There's money coming. And so I think that further just deepened him because now it's like everybody else is seeing this value. This might give me some value.

[00:40:03] And on what you said, Sarah, he was a mystery and we didn't really get to hear much about who he was outside of Taylor. And so it was kind of hard to like I said, to figure out like what line do I tote with Wade outside of just the logic of it all? Because again, it's like, what the fuck? Ten months. Like, what are we talking about here? Yeah, it was it's it's an interesting dichotomy there going on with Wade.

[00:40:32] He's usually in these documentaries. I can kind of say like, no, you're clearly the victim and you're clearly the perpetrator. And for him, I don't know where he lies because I like you said, sir, I don't I just don't know enough about him. And there was still motive for him to participate actively with Taylor in this delusion.

[00:40:52] I will say that when we do the side googings, I am going to really focus on on Wade because something it's telling me if if if I had to bet on Wade's participation, I would bet that he again was so passive and he couldn't pull the trigger. We get that. We get that. It was like a voicemail of her yelling like, wait, call me back.

[00:41:16] And we get the text messages between Taylor and Cody's wife where she's like, Wade isn't answering my phones. He's not responding to me. I could see Wade. Wade was probably doing things that he was intentionally hoping that she would break up with him for. Like I could see him like staying out all night, like doing his job, coming home, going to sleep. I could see him possibly even she said, I think he's talking to somebody else.

[00:41:43] I could see him possibly really like having another girlfriend or something like that, trying to force her hand into breaking up with him. But again, we don't know from this documentary. Like Victoria says, it's not fleshed out. Like Sarah says, it's not he wasn't fully, fully formed. And I think the purpose is like Sarah correctly points out is that Connie Griffin, Wade's mom is a unsung hero here. I think the title maternal instinct is here for multiple reasons.

[00:42:12] It's here pointedly for Taylor, maybe being that that main reason of the main driving motive for Taylor to have taken the lives of Reagan and Braxton. But I really think it is Connie, Wade's mom, who's doing all of this research, calling the clinic, asking, is it possible for Taylor to be pregnant? And the clinic being like, you can't say nothing.

[00:42:35] But if you know, and Stephanie, Cody's wife, both Stephanie and Connie kind of doing their own reconnaissance on Taylor, getting all of this information. And like we said, we hear them gathering the information and the missing link is, did they tell Wade? They had to have told Wade. And again, why we're kind of all confused is like, well, what did he do with that information? It seems like he didn't do nothing.

[00:43:00] It seems like he was like, well, you know, I think she's lying about this baby, but let's see through to the deadline. And maybe he said like, oh, unless you don't have a baby, I'm kicking you out type thing, which, you know, heightens the whole situation. I think saying that we don't know Wade is a fault with Wade, not a fault with the documentarian. I think she showed us the unknowableness of him rather than failing in part of her job. I like that. Good point. Right.

[00:43:29] But can Sarah, can you talk about the other bad friends that are Angela Pate and Roger Pate, Wade's boss and his wife? Like, oh, my God. They were the enablers of all enablers for Wade. She is perfect. She is perfect. No, no. Stay with her. Stay with her. Because it seems like, I mean, it's hard to tell, but a lot of people were about her, but they were not.

[00:43:58] And at least they had the good grace in this documentary once it all comes out to, I was going to say display remorse, but I don't know. I think it was more display shock and decide that they were victims as well. N-O to these people. N-O. Yeah. Yeah. And, you know, we're introduced to them as, I think the first line that we hear from him is, you know, from the South, you just trust people. You just trust people.

[00:44:27] Face value. It doesn't matter what they display, what they do. You just trust them and you keep pushing. And that was definitely not good because clearly Wade, they were almost like mentors, it seemed like, to him. And so what they said went more than his own mother. I'm like, what happened to being a mama's boy? What happened to listening to your mama? What are we doing here?

[00:44:50] What role did your mother play in your life where you didn't want to listen to her when she was giving you all the warnings, but instead you listen to these people that again are feeding the motive that I think Wade had to continue down this line. She's an honest girl. I don't think she would lie to you. There's just no way. In my opinion, he wanted the money. Absolutely. He wanted the money. He wanted the money. You know, the other that Cody was shocked he wasn't getting, but you know. Right.

[00:45:20] Yes. I must say it did occur to me. I thought he, she said he's a handsome cowboy and I thought him? That's the girls on date with Dateline would say. I mean, it takes all types and, you know, I'm not, I'm not here to, to make opinions about anybody's looks, but he probably felt very special. She made him feel special deliberately and I think that, as you say, the selection of Wade was very, very calculated by her.

[00:45:51] She's a terrible smart in that, I mean, she was keeping 35 different, not personalities, but email addresses from 35 different distinct people. Somebody says I would have needed a three ring binder to follow all of that. That was her ex-co-worker with whom she bonded over holding a dying baby in your arms, which she had not done. I mean, it just, just a terrible, until she actually did.

[00:46:19] But can we talk about Dr. Christopher Mason and Melissa Mason? He is an OBGYN and she is the manager of the, of the, of the practice. And I, you know, we're so used to, you know, older white men in charge, not doing the right thing, that I was shocked, shocked when he seemed to know exactly who she was.

[00:46:44] And he said that as soon as he heard she was supposedly pregnant, he had done her hysterectomy, that he immediately was concerned for his own patients and set up safety protocols at the clinic to protect them. Obviously, his reach was not far enough to protect Regan. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that was very interesting to me. And, you know, there are HIPAA laws.

[00:47:08] And the thing that I thought about was like, because me as a psychologist, if there is an intent to harm someone else, I have to inform that person and the authorities. And what was interesting about this is they just weren't sure what she was going to do, like what the lengths were. So it's like, it toted that line. You can see on Melissa's face almost just like the disappointment that she had that she could not do anything else, right?

[00:47:35] Like all she could do because she has to protect Taylor because she was a previous patient. She couldn't, she couldn't say much more besides, they couldn't do much more besides like, let's just lock down this unit and make sure she doesn't come and steal a baby. And I'm like, there's just, how would they have known to even tell the authorities that, hey, something might happen. But I was wondering why they didn't tell the authorities at the bare minimum that she might come steal a baby.

[00:48:04] Like, was there, is there like no detective work that could happen? I don't know. Sometimes I can be like, where is the law? Why did the law come into place? But yeah, it was, I say all that to say, HIPAA, the difference between HIPAA and then being able to just full out say like, I think something bad here is going to happen is where this, where the law fell short here. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we were touching on it, but let's get into it.

[00:48:35] Dr. Victoria, Taylor is the main person here. And for entertainment purposes only, what could they have, what could they have done? Like, what could, what could she have been possibly suffering from? Because again, everyone in Wade's life was like, she's lying. They say that her and Wade were even arguing because her due date comes and goes. They say she's going to get induced and then a fire happens at his house.

[00:49:04] The next day she's going to get induced. There's a bomb threat to the hospital that she's called. So she's 17 days past her due date. Everybody's like, girl, the jig is up. Just give it up. And they're arguing. And she's like, I'm going to bring a baby. Is there, is there anything they could have done? Because I mean, at this point they, they should have been seeing the signs of a mental health crisis. Yeah, I agree. I think if I was wondering, did everybody talk to everybody?

[00:49:32] Like, did the old friends come through and like meet up with the doctor? Like, was there enough cross pollination happening so that they could see that there was a mental health crisis happening? Because to the doctors it was, there's no way she can be pregnant because she had a hysterectomy. Hysterectomy. But I was not sure if they were aware of all of her past lives because, you know, she had cancer. She had all of these things according to the friends. I was like, did they know?

[00:50:01] Because then they could have seen like, or they would have known, oh, there's something deeper here going on. Like, it almost seemed like to the doctors and to the newer people in Taylor's life, they felt like this was something new. And it was all about staying with Wade. Now, when it comes to, you know, potential things that might be happening in a profile, I was at first like, is this fictitious disorder?

[00:50:26] What used to be called Munchausen, you know, and they, you know, the by proxy or whatever. This would be factitious disorder imposed on self. I think what's interesting here, though, is we don't exactly know what Taylor's motive is. And so because of that, I'm like, well, it seemed like the motive was to keep Wade. And so, or this fear of abandonment. And so that's when you kind of go into like, okay, is this a personality issue, right?

[00:50:55] Because we have identity disturbance going on. We have extreme manipulation going on. And she kind of is like a, well, I'm going to say she kind of. It seems like there is a mix of like the type, the cluster B personality things going on. When you think about somebody who has borderline personality disorder, they are very unstable with their emotions.

[00:51:22] They have a distorted self image and they have these extreme fears of abandonment. If we put that into this case, it seems like Taylor, of course, she was creating a whole nother identity, right? She felt like her value was placed on this idea of does Wade love me? Do these people love me? Am I accepted? As soon as she's not accepted in one community, she uproots her life and she figures out another way to go gain that value.

[00:51:51] That within itself can be characteristic of what we see with individuals who have borderline personality disorder. Then you have antisocial behaviors, just completely disregarding other people's rights, harming others, not caring about the safety of others in order for your own personal gain, violating societal norms.

[00:52:14] So all of the lying, all of the creating of things over and over again and digging deeper and deeper and deeper into the lies to cover up the first lie. Of course, killing someone that is anti-societal norm within itself, right? And then you have potential characteristics of narcissism, right? Like this grandiose sense of self-importance where you are wanting to be the center of attention.

[00:52:44] You need the admiration from others, which is why she wants to be so captivating. When she is not getting that, she is uncomfortable, right? And then that leads into histrionic. So there is like a mix of things potentially going on here where I was like, what is happening? You know, what is happening? And like I said in the beginning, you think sometimes when you go through training or when you hear about these things, you've seen the range of pathology.

[00:53:11] And it goes to show you that even like mental health, when it comes to explaining behaviors, is limited. Because when you see things like this that are so unique and it's not fascinating, but it's fascinating because you have so many questions. Like why is this happening? But when you see things like this that are so unique and fascinating, you're just like, how do you explain this?

[00:53:34] If I opened up a DSM right now, I don't know if I could have a clear cut explanation, right? Especially because I have not sat down with Taylor. She's not my client, but I'm just like, what happened? And the most fascinating part about it is it seemed like she likely came from a loving home. It didn't seem like her mom was the monster that she was painting her out to be. Yeah.

[00:53:58] Which I actually, on that point, that might be the one thing that was missing in this documentary was a little bit more about her childhood and maybe having her mother present to speak about how she was as a child. We had a little bit of the friends doing it in terms of, you know, she had some self-esteem issues. She was overweight as a child. She went and got the weight loss surgery, all the things. And then she became like this super vibrant personality.

[00:54:27] So, yeah, that would be, I guess, an overarching, like what is happening here with Taylor, if I had to assume. Love that. Thank you so much. So, before we get into the rest of our overall thoughts and our ratings, Sarah, I do believe we have some updates to the property. We're going to get a little bit more into the case and bring it back to you next week.

[00:54:53] But there's a very interesting interview with the director, Jessica Dimmick, who we have praised and will continue to do so here on this pod over on Tudum, which we'll link in the show notes. She points out, like Murray said at the beginning, how vulnerable pregnant women are to get hurt or murdered. And the most common way to die while you're pregnant is that someone very close to you kills you. She also talks about what sets this case apart. So that is really worth the read.

[00:55:20] But one section I found particularly interesting, and I'll read it to you here. She was asked why wasn't Taylor Parker's diagnosis, which was presented by her defence, included in the documentary. And she said, Taylor didn't go into this crime having an established diagnosis, so it's hard to understand the validity of one diagnosis. That being said, there was definitely something very wrong with her.

[00:55:46] At trial, the defence put on experts who testified that she had several psychiatric disorders, but the state's experts argued her actions were attributed to psychopathy. There's no way to know for sure she did not attempt an insanity defence. For Regan's family, this was an important distinction. It didn't matter what was wrong with her. The jury found her guilty and sentenced her to death. That's so interesting.

[00:56:16] What do you think about that, Victoria? That's interesting because it would be nice to know exactly what her diagnosis is. But like you said, or like the young lady said, there wasn't an established one going into the case. And so even if she did want to plead insanity, because the behaviour, or all of the behaviours, they were so severe, I think it would have been hard for her to plead that.

[00:56:41] Because it's like, you would have to pull in so many things and instances, and she would have to pretty much admit to all of her lies. Right? Like she would have to admit to doing this for a very long time in order for that to be something that could be included in the case. I'm happy she didn't get that because she wasn't even someone trying to get herself help in that regard.

[00:57:05] I think that I think when it comes to pleading guilty by insanity, I do think that is reserved for individuals who, in my, in my, not my, not necessarily my professional, but my personal opinion. I think that that should be reserved for individuals who are seeking help for something because there is a recognition or other people have possibly sat you down and said, hey, these are how your behaviours are affecting other people.

[00:57:32] And to say that you are insane, right, by definition, is saying that you are not within your right mind. And so your judgment is skewed and you are somewhat aware of that, right? Because if you're getting on the stand and saying, hey, treat me as an insane person. I think that means that you have some, some sort of self-awareness enough to say this is an issue and it's leading to behaviours that aren't,

[00:57:59] that aren't in light of who I would like, like to be. Right. And I don't think it goes as deep as cutting somebody and stabbing them and taking a baby and doing all the things that she, she has, she has done. I don't think that that should be reserved for people doing things like this. But the psychopathy part of it is what I just described in terms of all of these different personality traits kind of coming together and morphing,

[00:58:28] which makes it very, very complex. And it would take too much digging, I think. So I think that was a good rule on the court to say we're not even about to play with you right now, Taylor. Like, you can miss me. I mean, that's a very important point that you make, Victoria. In order to be not guilty by reason of insanity, you have to say you did it. And she has never said that she did it. She's got 25, 30, 100 different stories.

[00:58:56] Each time she was interviewed, she gives a different story, interviewed by police, she gives a different story. And that's another thing that Jessica Dimmick said when asked, why didn't you have her on the documentary? She said, well, what would be the point? There's so many different lies. And what are we going to get from it? Well, yeah, what are we going to get from it? So, yeah. So I think that there was no way that she would have said that she did it. And therefore, she can't use the insanity plea. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:59:26] Great. Good. All right. So let's get into our ratings. So, Victoria, how many magnifying glasses are you going to rate maternal instinct out of a possible five? Let me see here. Because I'm going to give it a four. I'm going to give it a four. I'll give it a four. I would have given it a five. But in this conversation, I realized I needed to know more about Taylor's history. I still think it was a well-done documentary.

[00:59:55] And I think what Sarah said in terms of how they laid out the information to start with her potentially lying about this pregnancy and giving birth versus the lady, you know, Reagan has passed. The baby has passed was nice because it was a very big shock factor. Like, I didn't think that was that's where we were going with this at all. So I think it was a very well-laid-out documentary for sure. But, yeah, I would have liked that piece. So I'll give it a four for that, maybe even a 4.5.

[01:00:24] But good documentary overall. Sarah, how about you? How many magnifying glasses are you going to rate this documentary out of a possible five? I'm going to give it a 4.5. I thought it was very good. And, Marie, I don't know if you noticed, but, you know, I famously detest the Googling of things on documentaries.

[01:00:44] Here, it was brilliant because all the Google searches that were being shown beforehand, we get a super text saying this is based on Google searches presented as evidence in the court. So I go, ah, great. So the actual searches that she actually did are really illuminating because it goes from buying a fake ultrasound photograph to ordering silicon bellies.

[01:01:14] And we actually see a silicon belly, which I was very appreciative of. So she took the cursed 911 call and made it good. And she took the cursed Google searches and made it good. So I am very high on this director. I'm saying 4.5. What about you, Marie? How many magnifying glasses for you? Great point. And I'm glad you remembered to bring that up because I did find that very educating and entertaining as well.

[01:01:41] I was like, when they said, these are the actual Google searches, I was like, oh, Lord. And we always talk about, like, criminals Googling their crimes. And it is always like, I think they even left in like a typo she did at one point, too. It was very, very entertaining, spot on.

[01:02:00] Uh, I, too, I think without knowing what possibly could have been left out at this point, I'm going to give it a 4.5. And I'm not going to come back and amend it next week or anything like that. But from what we know now, I do agree. I thought this was a really well done documentary.

[01:02:22] And again, the emphasis on a lot of the women, the contributions of, like, Connie Griffin, Stephanie Ott, Taylor's former friends, Abby and Mackenzie, and then Reagan's mom and sister. Like, it was like, really presented as like all of these women putting this information together about all of the lies that Taylor was saying and going through.

[01:02:51] But ultimately, them just not being able to do anything with the information almost. I think at one point we do know that Abby reaches out to, I'm pretty sure it was Stephanie, to give her all of the information about, oh, she had a hysterectomy, da-da-da-da-da. Like, because, because Taylor's friends are not under HIPAA. You know, they don't have to, they don't have to uphold HIPAA laws. If they know what happened to her, they can tell.

[01:03:20] And for Taylor to have been so bold as to, again, post on Facebook that she's having a gender reveal, like, knowing that people out there know about her, her previous operations. Again, it's bold. But these women, they came together, they, they put the pieces together. Unfortunately, it, it still resulted in the death of Reagan and Braxland.

[01:03:44] And for Reagan's mom and her sister to sit here with us and really just, you know, relive that trauma. I felt heartbroken for them. They had necklaces with Reagan's picture on them. So I actually peeped that early in the documentary. And I was like, oh, like, I was like, oh, no. Like, I, I kind of figured I knew where that was going once they introduced them. So I, that was unfortunate.

[01:04:14] But hearing from them, hearing them talk about how much of a loving wife and mother Reagan was, again, we get that, that, that, the impact of the loss of the victim, which, you know, we appreciate in documentaries. So we do get that piece. Because I do wonder, this was very perpetrator focused, but that's, that's kind of where the story is. So I, I don't know if I can fault them for that.

[01:04:43] So all that being said, 4.5 all around. Jessica Demick did a absolutely amazing job on this. At Crime Scene, we are eager to hear your feedback and suggestions for future episodes. You can subscribe by going to CrimeScenePod.com or search Crime Scene. That's S-E-E-N wherever you get your podcasts. You can follow Crime Scene everywhere at CrimeScenePod or email us at CrimeScenePod at gmail.com.

[01:05:10] You can support us at BuyMeACoffee.com slash CrimeScenePod. You can sling us a couple of bucks or join our monthly membership. Members receive exclusive bonus content. And in answer to Mildred's question from an hour ago, every month we're going to invite supporters to watch us record our episode live. There you go. So new member Neen, welcome Neen. Thank you so much for joining. Asks, I'm just curious, are these live recordings somewhere that you can watch afterwards?

[01:05:40] If you're not available during the live stream? No, the video is only available live. It makes it very special. Of course, we do publish the edited audio as well. Next month, we're covering Worst Neighbor Ever with Jason Reed. More details on that to come. And Neen, I hope you will be available to join us in the chat. It was super fun. You can also support us by buying our merch. Yes, we have Crime Scene Tumblers. It's available at my shop. You can go to Mari Crafts Too Much.

[01:06:08] That's too likely number two at BigCartel.com. While you're there, you can look at some of my other book-themed Tumblers. If you don't find your favorite book, let me know and I'll make something just for you. The link to the store is in the show notes. We've had a couple purchases over the last week. So thank you, everybody, who are buying the Crime Scene Tumblers. And take a picture of your Tumbler and send it to us. Send it to us on Blue Skies. Send it to us on Instagram.

[01:06:39] And, of course, you can support us for free. Yes, free. I like that price tag. Rate and review Crime Scene so that others can find us. Five stars only. Five stars. Your support of any kind makes a big difference. Victoria, what do you have going on? And where can the people find you? Yes, you can find me at Black Girls Talking TV.

[01:07:03] That is on YouTube, Apple Podcasts, as well as Spotify Podcasts, Instagram, and TikTok. We are currently covering Love Island daily. Married at First Sight and Big Brother is coming up. So that should be fun, contributing to a very, I guess it's a watch party summer, for real. Because there's a lot going on at one time. And it's exciting.

[01:07:30] And that is hosted by myself and Kamaria, who is a lawyer. And so we are over there just giving group chat homegirl girly vibes. So if you like that type of stuff, definitely check us out. Yes, please go check them out. I love being a guest over there. Hopefully I can pop in for maybe some Love Island, maybe some Big Brother. We'll see. Yeah, no, please, please. And you know, you're the Big Brother queen over there.

[01:07:58] So thank you. Thank you. Sarah, what do you have going on? And where can the people find you? Oh, the people can follow me everywhere at Sarah Carradine, if that's something I'd like to do. Over on Babes in the Conclave, I'm covering The Traders Hungry Season 3 with Annabelle Fiddler. No, you don't have to speak Hungarian. No, you don't even have to watch it. Just listen to us. Bang on about it in our usual crazy way to queers in a conclave. What could be better?

[01:08:27] And what about you, Mari? Where can the people find you? You can find me over on Blue Sky at MariTalksTooMuch. That's two, like the number two. Also, over on Recap Kickback, we are going into our busy season. Me and Chappelle are covering the Vampire Lestat over there. We're having an amazing time covering that. It's so good. The Vampire Lestat, also known as Interview with the Vampire Season 3, has been amazing so far.

[01:08:56] We are having so much fun breaking that down. And this week, we just started coverage on House of the Dragons Season 3. Maester Mari is back. The maester is in. And we are having so much fun in the world of Game of Thrones. I mean, if you're not subscribed to Recap Kickback, what are you doing? Go to RecapKickback.com in order to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts.

[01:09:23] Or even better, go to YouTube. Go to YouTube.com slash at Recap Kickback in order to subscribe and watch our videos. We have such a fun time over there, me and Chappelle. So please, please, please go listen and subscribe. It really does make a difference. So Mari, what are we watching next week? Next time on Crime Scene, we're having a true crime roundup. There have been a few properties in June we haven't managed to get to.

[01:09:52] So we'll be talking about Big Girls Wanted, Escaping Paradise, Season 2 of Deadly Influence, and some other podcasts and other things. Get your requests and recommendations in and we'll try covering it all. Like I said, also try and listen to the Everything Scary podcast. They did a three-part breakdown of Taylor Parker's case. So I'll try and get to that too to talk about it next week.

[01:10:19] So if you are looking for recommendations next week, we are going to be recommending all of the things. You recommend stuff to us so we can then watch it for that too. So it's going to be a lot of fun next week. Please make sure you are subscribed so you can listen to the True Crime Roundup. Yeah, we already have a recommendation from Heather. She sent it in by SpeakPipe. Having said that she never would do that because she was too shy. Good on you, Heather.

[01:10:45] So you can send us a message in any of the ways that you like. But we do love it that you go to speakpipe.com slash crime scene pod and use your beautiful voice to tell us anything you like, really. Recommendations, reviews, whatever you like. Thanks to Victoria for joining us. Will from America for the theme music. And to all the mothers out there who are using that instinct to help their kids. And listen to your mama.

[01:11:14] Until next time, case closed.