Shipwrecked: Nightmare At Sea | Crime Seen episode 209

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[00:00:44] Hello everyone, I'm Mari Forth. I'm Sarah Carradine, podcasting from unceded Gadigal land. And this is Crime Seen, the true crime review podcast where we get to the heart of how true crime stories are told.

[00:00:58] This is Sarah from the editing room. Breaking news! You will be able to see Mari and me live, yes live, in Milwaukee, Wisconsin at RHAP Con, which is the 26th, 27th and 28th of August this year. Oh, so exciting. We can't wait to see all of you then. Last week we watched Murder 101 with Ellen Marsh from I Think Not Pod.

[00:01:28] Mari, what did we watch this week? This week we watched Shipwrecked, Nightmare at Sea on Netflix. It was directed by Chiara Messinello. She has previously produced Stolen Heist of the Century, which we covered with A.J. Maas. He gave it two and a half. You gave it a three and a meh. I gave it two magnifying glasses.

[00:01:53] So, we'll divide it on that. And she also previously produced Vatican Girl, where we were joined for the first time by Toby Ball. He gave that a 2.75. And again, you gave it a three. I gave it a two. Well, let's see where we land on this one. Not on a rock, I hope. Yeah.

[00:02:19] But of course, we can't get shipwrecked without Toby Ball's partner in Crime Writers On returning for his third appearance. It's Kevin Flynn. Kevin, welcome back. Thank you. And this, I will admit, is the first time that I showed up on time. Now, we would never have mentioned that. Oh, no. You said it. Not us. Yes. It's like, usually, Kevin, like, completely forgets this. And there was that one time I was at the bar at the Mexican restaurant. Yes.

[00:02:49] And I was like, oh, damn it. I am rushing home right now. We recorded that entire podcast, pausing to insert Kevin, finished the whole record, waited for you. You turned up, we talked to you, and we stuck you in the middle. No one would ever know. Oh, so smooth. So smooth. Yeah, so smooth. All right, well, I'm giving away all the secrets here. Yes, yes. I feel like this should be for members only. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:03:17] But, you know, let's get to it. Should I say, this is, I think we have a lot to talk about here. So, to the crime. On Friday, the 13th, January 2012, the cruise ship Costa Concordia deviated from her planned route to perform a sail-by salute at Giglio Island in the Mediterranean. The vessel struck a rock formation on the sea floor. This caused the ship to list and then partially sink.

[00:03:44] 32 people died, 27 passengers, five crew members. A member of a salvage team also died following injuries received during the recovery operation. An investigation focused on shortcomings in the procedures followed by Costa Concordia's crew and the actions of its captain, Francesco Schettino, who left the ship prematurely. He left about 300 passengers on board the sinking vessel, most of whom were rescued by helicopters or motorboats in the area.

[00:04:15] Schettino was found guilty of manslaughter and sentenced to 16 years in prison. Five other employees were convicted of manslaughter, negligence, and shipwreck, including the helmsman, Jacob Rusley-Binn, convicted for steering the ship in the wrong direction after Schettino ordered a corrective maneuver. He was sentenced to 20 months after a plea bargain. The cruise line paid a 1 million euro fine but faced no criminal proceedings.

[00:04:45] Yeah, so we do get a feature-length documentary here, an hour and 29 minutes. Netflix has quite honestly been hitting them out the park. We've been talking about Netflix documentaries for at least the past month, it feels like, now here's Sarah. But, Kevin, I want to get your overall thoughts on shipwreck. Well, I think I like the poop cruise better. That one. Literally.

[00:05:16] Yeah. Well, I'll say, I'll agree with you. I think Netflix has had a lot of good stuff recently. I don't know if this is one of those better ones. I think that the video that they have from on board, pretty compelling. The people who survived and they interviewed, I kind of wish they hadn't survived. I was like, of all the people? I thought the term is casting. And I thought the casting was pretty weak.

[00:05:45] I know this couple, you want them, because she took all this film on her iPhone. But I thought the telling of it was rather boring. And the stakes that they discussed did not equate to the stakes that we saw. Right? You know, and it was like, oh, I forgot the baby's pacifier. It's like, Jesus Christ. I mean, really? That's okay. Drama. Oh, no. You forgot the pacifier.

[00:06:15] Wah. Wah. So I thought it was very mid. I thought that they had a great idea. I just thought they interviewed too few people. Had too few points of view out of the 4,000 people who were aboard. And just because the stories that the people told were not as, you know, there was the hotel manager who fell through that. That was an interesting story.

[00:06:46] But I just, I felt like that it could have been told better maybe by adding a bunch of other people there. But I just was kind of like, not really invested in their safety, I guess. I don't know. So it's like, okay, well, you survived. I don't know. Your baby's not there. I'm assuming that your baby survived. You know, your mother isn't there. I'm assuming your mother's dead.

[00:07:12] And that was pretty much where I came in on shipwrecking. Yeah. Immediately as I sat down to turn this on, and I, of course, forced my husband James to watch basically everything with me. Unless it's a three-part Hulu documentary series. He will not watch those for reasons previously stated. He was like, is it like Poop Cruise? And I was like, it is not like Poop Cruise. So he had that exact same thought as you, Kevin. Yeah.

[00:07:43] I can see those points about the talking head. Sarah, how about you? What was your overall thoughts of Shipwreck? Well, I thought of Poop Cruise as well. Literally one of my favorite shows from last year. It was funny, compelling. You had all points of view. I mean, as listeners know, I've worked on cruise lines myself.

[00:08:03] So I really liked seeing top to bottom passengers, officers, crew quarters were shown and all of that, as well as it being very lively. This wasn't lively. And I know that you might think it's a strange thing to ask from a shipwreck documentary, but I did want a bit more liveliness. I thought sometimes when you get a very small number of talking heads, it can be very compelling and very crafted.

[00:08:32] Here, four people may as well have been one person, so get rid of them, two pairs of white Americans. Like, nothing wrong with white Americans, but why are there so many of them? And Manrico's most… Birth control, that's right. What happened to Astinence?

[00:08:51] Manrico, our hotel manager, the most interesting thing about him is he fell through the floor during the evacuation, and he was there from Friday night to Sunday morning. Why did we hear not a single thing about him with a broken leg in the bottom of the ship? The only thing we heard was that he hit it with a frying pan and the dancer heard it. So I just, I feel like that was dull. I like the schematics.

[00:09:20] I like the schematics of the ship very much. It showed you where everything was. So I liked that. I did not like the decision to translate and play as if it was the real tape, the voices from the bridge. Because it just flattened it and it sounded odd because the actors were trying to match the intensity of the actual recordings.

[00:09:50] It's a strong editorial choice. Yeah, you're right. That's strange. Where, you know, Manrico was speaking in Italian. We can read subtitles. And it was subtitled anyway. Right? And it was subtitled anyway. They did it in English, it was subtitled anyway. So why not just have it in Italian? If they have it, right? If they have it in Italian, just play it. Yes. So that was strange. I liked Barbie.

[00:10:10] I certainly liked about an hour in, we got into the aftermath and things got a little bit more propulsive as Barbie rushes from Rome to Giglio. But then that sort of fizzled out as well. I don't know. I didn't not like it. I am interested in shipwrecks. I did some Googling, Mari, which I will say after we give our ratings because I do not want it to affect what your ratings are.

[00:10:40] But I did some Googlings and I got a bit cross. What about you, Mari? What did you think? I will say your side Googlings aside, I also did feel at the end of it, I was like, I feel like there's something was missing. Because I did, I started to do some cursory Googles as myself. And I think I just got, I think I may have opened TikTok and just got.

[00:11:11] Blue dress, white dress, blue dress, white dress. I don't know. When I, when I tell you that happens far too often, I'll be going to hit another app and then TikTok accidentally opens. Why am I dancing to Saucy Santana's new song? What was I doing previously? Anyways. But yeah, I, I like this because I am, I am one of those weirdos who loves the show.

[00:11:37] Like, I don't know if you guys have heard of the show Seconds from Disaster. I used to come on, like, Nat Geo, like, real discovery channel. Like, or, um, uh, air, air, air disasters, stuff like that. Sarah famous. Sarah knows this about me.

[00:11:56] But like, something about seeing, like, knowing something is about to happen and seeing the, the, the warm up to it. What happened? Like, the disaster that happens and then the fallout from it. Uh, something about that just tickles the right side of my brain. So, like, this, I was so invested in those, the, the tapes.

[00:12:23] I didn't even, I didn't even clock that y'all said it was, um, you know, transcribed and acted out. I really didn't. I was just so invested in, I was like, he said the three, five, zero, three, five, zero. He said three, four, zero. I don't think that's right. You know what I'm saying? Like, I was just so invested in, in, like, the schematics, like Sarah said. And where everybody was. Rose the dancer was probably my favorite and most compelling talking head.

[00:12:51] And I was so mad that she was gone for, like, a portion of it. Like, she did a really good intro and then she was gone for about a good 15, 20 minutes while we followed that other couple who was like, y'all are, y'all are kind of starting a riot, but sure. Um, and then. And then we get back to Rose who, who's explaining, like, how she, she helped all of these passengers, which was so cool.

[00:13:21] And then to see her being rescued, like, I, I think I, I, I, I found it pretty compelling. I do agree now that we could have had a lot more talking heads. Minaj, Minaj, uh, the chef, um, who, who I liked talking to him. I would have, again, loved a little bit more about from a crew perspective. It made me think of you, Sarah. Um, a little more from the crew perspective would have been great because they are, you know, they were right there on the bottom of the ship.

[00:13:51] Um, so I, I did, I do think that a little bit more perspectives would have been great. Um, I also feel like I was, I, I truly felt like I was missing something because like, when the, like, first off, why did he deviate from the, the path? He said, cause the head waiter wanted to do a, a, a, whatchamallit. A sail by. Yeah. Yeah. A sail by. I was like, that doesn't sound, who cares what the head waiter wants to do? Okay, sure.

[00:14:21] And then for like. That was so weird. It was so weird. And then the engineer being like, the water is coming through and the captain was like, well, where did we hit? The water is coming through. And then like the coast guard calling and they're like, it's just a blackout. I'm sitting here like, oh my God. Like that was like, that was, that's what I liked. I was like, just hearing the ineptitude. Um, they're, they're telling the coast guard that it's just a blackout. Okay. You tell that to the, the, the passengers. Sure. Whatever.

[00:14:51] Still stupid. But don't tell that to the coast guard. Like nobody mobilized, uh, um, any type of help. And then the moment that the captain leaves the bridge and he's like, I'm leaving. You guys come with me. And then somebody's like, okay, uh, uh, we're issuing an abandoned ship. And then the captain's like, no, no, no, no abandoned ship. I'm, I'm just. I didn't say that. I didn't say that. I'm just stepping out. And, uh. Cool your jets. Cool your jets. That's all right.

[00:15:21] I didn't say abandoned ship. I said, let's all go to another part of the ship and get people off. And then we're going to still be here until then we go. And I'm not saying abandoned ship. That's Italian. I'm saying abandoned ship or whatever. He's not saying that. Abandonate. No. To get the reveal from, um, Minoj, like that's the captain on our, on our lifeboat. So I'm sitting here. He was on the deck. Minoj was still on the ship, but he looked out.

[00:15:50] He's like, that's the captain. I would have been like, you motherfucker. I am coming down to that boat and I'm going to strangle you. Um, at that point I was like, wait, but so, but that means he never sent out an abandoned ship. He never sent out an alert of any kind. He just left the boat. And I was like, oh my God. And I felt like they didn't delve into that a lot more. It's just a leak. It's just a leak. It's just a leak. It's just a leak. And the boat just, it's kind of tipping.

[00:16:19] It's just a little tip. It's just a little tip. Calm your tits. It's fine. It's just, you know, it's cosmetic. Uh, I would say. Every plate broke. Every fucking plate broke. Thousands. Thousands of plates. I mean, there was some fascinating, I just think it was such a wasted opportunity because now no one's going to do a prestige documentary about the Costa Concordia for at least another 10 years. But they're fascinating things because it was tipping, tipping, tipping, tipping. And with each tip, more stuff was falling.

[00:16:48] So it's not like there was a big bang and it fell over and then everything settled. It's that at each moment there were more things falling, more furniture falling, more chandeliers falling. And I didn't really, I'm manufacturing my excitement or my imagination about things like that rather than them showing. I mean, there were some compelling things when Rose is trapped with three people because they

[00:17:13] threw the passengers across the chasm and then there was no one to throw them. And when she's flashing and the helicopter comes, like I, you know, I had a little sob. The first time in the morning that we see the rock that, that, that they ran aground on, I gasped. Yeah. What, what happened at the church? Very good reveal. What happened at the church? Who was organizing? How was it organized? How did they get, I love process. All right.

[00:17:42] So all their passports are on the ship. How do they get home? What's the repatriation? And it's like, there was, how do you get that pacifier back? Pacifier. And he wasn't wearing a shirt. I thought, Ooh, remember he wasn't wearing a shirt. So that's going to come back and be important. No. Chekhov's shirt. I was in my box of shorts. Yeah. Yeah. Jesus. What did you say about the part though, where like, I don't, I guess they were trying to make it more heroin. I don't know.

[00:18:11] But the part where they're doing the big slide down that slide foot. And then they said the baby's head hits. That was the one time I was like, Oh, I was like, Oh my God. Yes. Is something going to happen? Yeah. And then I like the way they edit that. Right. And then they cut back and forth. And then they have this shot, which, you know, this is how they filmed it. They asked the question like, Oh, so like on what day did you get to on the, you know, on the ship? Oh, we arrived on Friday.

[00:18:37] And then they just play with their papers for five minutes so that they have to just sit there in the chair and make faces. And so then they take that cutaway shot where it looks like, you know, they're like all very upset and like trying to hold in their emotions, thinking about how their baby hit their head sliding or whatever. And it's really just a shot of them wondering, are they going to ask another question?

[00:19:04] You know, it's very much the, you know, did I leave my, did I leave the oven on kind of, yeah, kind of look. But yeah, that scene, I mean, that scene was pretty dramatic. It did remind me of Titanic. And apparently everything in this documentary reminded somebody of Titanic. This is a good drinking drink. When someone's like, Oh, lifeboats, just like in Titanic, drink, you know, but there's, you know, at the end when, you know, the Titanic went down nose first and that, you know,

[00:19:32] you remember it towards the end and people sliding down the deck, right? You know, Rose and Jack are climbing up to the stairs. There was room on that door. There was room on that door. It's about, but not in that lifeboat. Apparently you got to go back. Right. So then the boats come back. Yes. Just like they came back for Rose, put your whistle in your mouth and start blowing. I thought that was an interesting scene. It was great. And then yes, there was a drama. I wanted to talk to someone that went in the water because a lot of people went in the water.

[00:20:01] Look, I can also absolutely buy that there would be a whole lot of people who would never want to speak about this publicly. Yes. But these can't be the only five people who are prepared to talk about it. There are eight people that we heard from. Eight people who were on board that vessel. I mean, there were 4,000. And we heard two crew members, Enrico, who was the hotel manager. Excellent guy to have.

[00:20:28] Not only did he have an interesting story, but he had a perspective. And he also had that maritime perspective where he was saying, when he says the captain should have done this within five minutes or whatever, that carries some weight. Other than Nicholas, who just can't stop talking over his wife every time. It's like, hey, yeah. Hey, I don't know. I felt like maybe they should have taken out the boat sooner. You know? It's like, you know, I don't, you know, Jamoke, shut up and just, you know, whatever.

[00:20:57] And what was the other husband's name too? Because for a second I was like, John. John and Megan. I said, did John leave his family? Like that moment when they said, like, they were like running up the steps. And he was like, I missed them for a second. And then we missed, yes. And we got separated in the stairwell. And then we found each other three seconds later. It's like, you know, the fake drama and tension is just like.

[00:21:25] Well, it takes away, it takes away from Stefania, whose mother went back for her life fest. As soon as she said her mother went back for the life fest, I thought, okay, mother, mother is dead. But that was an extraordinary moment. My wife has an Italian mother. Yes. And I can see that. She wanted to get out of her stilettos. These shoes are killing me. These shoes are killing me. And I really, I can't swim. Literally, these shoes are killing her.

[00:21:55] But that was fascinating. You go on ahead. I'll find, it's okay. I'll find a lifeboat. Don't, don't worry about me. I'm just going to go back here, get my shawl. You know, put it over my head. Okay, I guess maybe I'm laughing at somebody now who is a victim here and I probably shouldn't. But it seems like that was not a great choice to leave the rescue area. Terrible choice. But, yes. Do you know what was a good choice? Was when her daughter phoned her and said, where on earth are you?

[00:22:25] I'm about to get on a lifeboat. Her mother said, well, yes, I'm just getting on a lifeboat too, so you get on yours. Now, that was such an incredible thing to say when obviously she was struggling somewhere in the bowels of the boat. I was wondering, though, about that, though. Because, so when her mom said, oh, I was getting on a lifeboat, and then her daughter was like, oh, she was on a lifeboat.

[00:22:46] And then at the end of the documentary, they said, we can't be sure about how the 32 different people died. But we do know that, didn't they say, like, some people died because of something about the lifeboat malfunctioning? Some of them fell into the water. Yeah. Some of them fell into the water, but they were all fine as far as I know.

[00:23:12] Because of the way that the ship listed that the lifeboats on the high side couldn't clear and, you know, make it to the water. So, yeah, then people were tossed or, you know, whatever. Yeah, that's what John and Megan were talking about. That's what happened to them for a moment. Yes, that's right. They had to slide. I don't know, man. Get different people. Keep Manrico, keep Minaj, keep Barbie, keep Francesco.

[00:23:41] The fire brigade diver. The people were fine, but they couldn't carry this themselves, right? Yes, that's true. From a narrative point of view, from an artistic and editorial point of view, they weren't enough. Because they were actually, they were very dull people to begin with. I think that's, you know, I mean, what can you do about that? You can't do anything about it. No, I mean, you had Rose, you know, who was like the dancer. But, you know, other than like, you know, the flashlight and stuff like that.

[00:24:08] Like, she didn't go put out a fire, you know, or something like that. She heard Manrico. That was sort of the only interesting things there. But I have to say, and Mari, I'm sorry. And then she kept walking, right? Yeah. Isn't that what it was? I heard something banging. Oh, well. Well, she was stuck herself. She was stuck herself. Yeah. Come on. Justice for Rose. Now, Mari, I'm sure you've just been dreading me saying this. I cannot not say it. At the end, John says that God saved them.

[00:24:36] And I would like to ask John, A, does that mean he didn't like the other 32 people who died? But also, B, then why did God do it in the first place? Like, I don't understand how God, why did God do it in the first place? So, just to say. And when the producers said, well, you saved them, and then he, like, broke down crying, well, you know, a moment. I liked that moment. But unfortunately, that was the last moment of the documentary. He's like, no, this is not the moment to end on.

[00:25:05] Can I say the one thing about John? Mari, if it's all right, if I jump in here. Please. Right? He had the moment. Like, you know, first of all, like, Patricia and Nicholas, they're talking about how, like, when they're going down, their lifeboat's being lowered. And we just held hands and said the Our Father. And it's like, okay, there you go. Nice Italian Catholic family, whatever. But then when John was about how, like, he just prayed to God, and he said,

[00:25:33] God, I promise I'll raise this baby in the name of Jesus. And I'm, like, thinking, dude, you were going to do that anyway. Right? There's nothing about you that says, oh, okay, you were a heathen, and all of a sudden you just found God. Right? You went there, and you were already, like, you said your prayers at the bedside before you jumped into bed that night, I'm sure. Right? So it's like, oh, well, you know, if God was listening, he'd be like, yeah, I got that.

[00:26:02] Show me something new. You know? It's like, that's fine. If you really want to, if we're really bargaining here, if you want to negotiate. Be like Abraham and say, I will kill my child for you. There you go. That's what Abraham did. That's what Abraham did, according to the Bible. God said, kill your child. And he went, yeah, okay. That would have been a bargain, John. There you go. How about that? God lived, everybody. Calm down. Calm down. She's a beautiful ballerina who's going to make a contribution to the world. So calm down. How about you say, you saved my life.

[00:26:32] I will say, I did, like you guys, I did notice that there was a lot of God references. And I too had a semi-reaction that you guys did. Sarah knows I am a spiritual person, not a religious one. She is. And I too was like, okay. But then I did have to tell myself, if there is a moment that I would call on God or Jesus, this would probably be it.

[00:27:02] You know what I'm saying? So I too was like, yeah. Kevin, you make a very good point. It was that both of, both these couples gave it. I mean, there's no atheists in foxholes, they say. I've never been in a foxhole. So I can't, I can't guarantee that. I will say, I want to. I might call on Poseidon if I was in a ship that was sinking. I would call on Poseidon because he's going to have much more help to me. That would be an adventure. Yes. I will say.

[00:27:30] One of my absolute formative and favorite movies. And I saw it at the time that it was released. The Poseidon Adventure. Have you seen the Poseidon Adventure? Are you familiar with that film? The original. With the, there's a boat. Yes. Yes. It's called the Poseidon. And people are stranded in it. It's like one of these 70s disaster movies. And yeah, the boat like capsizes. So it's upside down.

[00:27:55] So in order to, for the passengers to get out, they have to like climb up, which is really like climbing down, you know, and everything's upside down. And it's sort of, that's sort of what it was. And I remember seeing it like on, when they would play movies on Sunday afternoon on cable. It's like, that's like, oh, the Poseidon Adventure? They remade that, right? They did. Probably. Watch the old one. Shelley Winters, champion Olympic swimmer and a fantastic cast. Yeah.

[00:28:23] The boy goes to use the bathroom and everything's upside down. The visuals here did remind me of like Poseidon Adventure because you're right. I mean, if you just turn a building on its side, you know, it's, you're going to have these weird perspectives and things like that. That's interesting. I will check that out. I will say we, there's not too much more to talk about this because we kind of did, we kind of went through it, but I do want to say a few things about the production of it.

[00:28:50] So again, I think some of the things that they did well was the, like you said, the description of the boat showing us where people were like the, the cool kind of like a blueprint of the boat showing us the location Rose, Rose is in the back deck and the bar. John and Megan were on the fourth deck. Like, like I thought that you did a good job of that. I do wish they had way more footage of the ship.

[00:29:19] It, it, it was kind of like they held, like we said, they held the, you know, showing the ship in the, the light time as like a, whoa, look at, look at this. But I really would have liked to see a little bit more footage from an outside perspective of what the ship looked like. Because I thought those, that, those pictures, those videos were very captivating. Just, you know, slowly seeing a ship sink over. You can't tell me that they don't have a lot of footage from all those boats that were going

[00:29:48] to go help those people. You know what I'm saying? Like a lot more of it. I will say that it, it felt, I don't know, like kind of just not completely coherent as a through line of, of just kind of like, maybe it's just because we're seeing so many perspectives at different moments that it was just kind of like a mess.

[00:30:12] They tried to keep it, they tried to keep us on, on task with the different times that I will, that was good. They had the times at the bottom of the screen because I was like, it was 45 minutes before they even, even acknowledged anything was wrong basically. So I did like that aspect, but just something about it. I mean, I still liked it, but it was, it was something about it that was just like, I,

[00:30:40] I came away, like I originally said, I came away thinking, I feel like there's more that I would have loved to hear about this. Um, and I think a lot of it also comes down to the helmsman thing, because I went into this thinking, man, that captain was a dick. He, you know, been ship, he did all this. And then at the very end during his court thing, they, they, they kind of say really quickly,

[00:31:07] like, oh, the captain, you know, there's a miscommunication between the captain and the helmsman. And I would have loved for them to bring on like somebody who steers ships and to tell us like what the difference was between what the captain was telling the helmsman to do and what the helmsman did. I would have, I would have loved just a little bit more technical about how the, like what was going on in this boat.

[00:31:34] And, and, um, I think it was Manrico who at one point had said like when he had turned toward the sail by and he was like the boat, like increased speed, like the speed never flagged. Like I would have loved, I don't know. I would have loved a walkthrough, like an actual, like not just letting us hear the black box that they recreated, but having somebody like a maritime person really step-by-step say what kind of happened. I don't know.

[00:32:02] Technically, like the technical aspects of what happened once the boat was struck, what happened? Like, oh, these chambers filled up. Oh, there is a fire. Like I would have loved to hear that type of aspect to it. Um, Kevin, what about you? Any, any, like, I guess I'm asking for final thoughts here. Yeah. Well, if you had that expert, they might've pointed out the fact that this isn't technically a shipwreck, that it's a grounding, you know, or a capsizing, you know, it's not a deep sea shipwreck.

[00:32:31] No one is going to be, you know, snorkeling, uh, the Costa Concordia shipwreck a hundred years from now. Um, it occurred to me exactly just how horribly bad the public relations was with the Titanic that a hundred plus years later, that's all anybody can talk about when they go on a cruise, whether or not this is or isn't like the Titanic. Titanic.

[00:32:59] And it's just like, man, it's like, I think, I think like the, you know, the Titanic's like, keep your name out of my, keep my name out of your mouth. All right. Zero to Titanic. Just because there's life books. Oh yeah. Zero to Titanic. You know, everybody that goes, oh, this looks just like the Titanic. Yes, I know. The Lusitania, the Lusitania's going, what about me? Yeah. What about me? The Lusitania says hi. Costa Concordia says, hold my beer. Yeah. Uh, yeah.

[00:33:26] I mean, I think, I think you guys make some really great points. It's, you know, it's an interesting, uh, story. Like, could they have like done this a lot more seriously, like an investigation into what happened? And, you know, it's probably pretty weak because I don't know if they're going to dig up like, you know, something brand new. They can, they can dress it up and put, you know, um, uh, you know, with, with crazier music. I'm trying to think of the one about the missing airplane where they had, it was like. MH-19 or whatever it was called.

[00:33:56] Yeah. You know, and then they had all the conspiracy people. Yeah. You know. We loved every minute of it. Didn't we, Mari? Three long, long episodes about, but wait, it could have been this next episode, but it wasn't. But of course it wasn't. No, no. Could it possibly be the obvious thing, which is the pilot who had a simulator that took it exactly on that route. Couldn't it have been him doing that on purpose? It's like, but he never flew. He doesn't need to fly it all the way in his simulator.

[00:34:26] He just needs to point it in that direction. He's like, simulation done. I'll crash it from here. You know? But as far as this disaster, I felt like, you know, that they didn't really build the tension in a way that made it compelling throughout. There's a lot of action and drama in the accident.

[00:34:55] And the people that they used to illustrate what was happening, almost all of them fell flat. And, you know, it's just, one of the things we say in crime writers, like sometimes when we talk to someone who's like a, or we hear from somebody who's a victim of a crime, some people are much better at telling their story than other people. It doesn't mean that, you know, if you're bad at that, that's not a character flaw.

[00:35:23] That just, you know, it doesn't mean that you're less of a victim or, you know, whatever, that your pain is different. It just means that somebody else is better at communicating this story than you are. And it ends up being very difficult when you have a podcast or a documentary or something else like that, when you're trying to put all of the narrative on that person's back. And unfortunately here we had, you know, I just pulled up the IMDB to look at it.

[00:35:51] We end up hearing from eight different people, right? We hear from two couples and then a couple, and then, you know, and then four individuals. And that is it really until you, until you get to like the next day and Barbie comes on and all that other stuff. But it lacked, it really, the casting for this was, ended up being fairly lazy. And it's like after they shot it, somebody said, yeah, good enough.

[00:36:19] We got enough here that we can work with. And it just, it just, it just didn't draw me in. And I'm like, uh, okay. Uh, I assume that you guys all escape. So, uh, except for the, you know, except for mom who we know, you know, she had cancer. So it was like, she, she goes one of two ways. We either lost her because, you know, uh, the tumor came back or she never got into the lifeboat like she said she was going to do.

[00:36:47] So anyway, uh, for me, I thought like, you know, they probably could have done something better with this because of the disaster, because they do have some interesting footage from inside. Um, but they just didn't have the right people to tell a story that would capture my attention for an hour and a half. This could have been a great investigation discovery, 45 minute installment in seconds from disaster or whatever, whatever else. Yeah.

[00:37:17] So what do you say? Well, final thoughts is go to prime and watch. Uh, there's a 45 minute sort of rundown. Exactly what we're asking for. Very plain, uh, nothing exciting, but that factual step-by-step. I'll put it in the show notes. I'm sorry. I can't remember what it was called. Uh, there are a lot of Costa Concordia things. All of them tell pretty much the same story. This should have been, if not different in the facts, because there are no new facts, despite the fact that they try and trick us.

[00:37:46] And when I get to my side Googing, I'll tell you all about that. But that I suppose has that, you know, a bit more premium. Uh, I think the casting, you're absolutely right, Kevin. It's like with, you know, uh, reality TV, which we know a lot about. We, all three of us can go through the same thing on reality TV. Whichever of us tells that story the best is going to be the one that gets five confessionals and you each get one.

[00:38:11] Uh, so it's the same here, except they got the people who don't tell the story as well. There was some very sneaky film not, film not found on night that they put in. And I thought, I don't need that. If someone's talking about running down a corridor, please don't give me a blurry, uh, swishing side to side, a gray, black and white bit of film, because I know that's not from when they were running down the corridor.

[00:38:38] So I found that a bit like, uh, and I, but I think the major blunder was, uh, the, what they call the black box recording. My side Google gave me two more things to be angry about. However, I can't not recommend it. It's like not, it's not, not watchable, certainly more watchable than three episodes of Vatican Girl. It seems like Chiara is very, very good at finding super interesting stories.

[00:39:09] Full stop. And not doing them very well. Oh, I couldn't help myself. Oh, I couldn't help myself. You said full stop. I did say full stop. But then I went on to the next sentence. And just on, on the topic of our very nice captain, who is definitely not abandoning ship. What he was doing was evacuating the passengers to shore. Oh. And when that guy said, get back on that boat, he's like, uh.

[00:39:39] I love the code that said, you have abandoned ship. That means I'm in charge. Get back on the shore. I never abandoned ship. Well. No. All right. Well, let's get to our rating. Kevin, how many magnifying glasses are you going to rate shipwreck nightmare at sea out of a possible five? I am going with, I'm going to kind of Toby ball it. I'm going to go with 1.75. So, so if you want to round up, I would do two magnifying glasses.

[00:40:08] This is, I guess if I were doing crime writers, I'd, I'd be a mild thumbs down. Okay. All right. That's it. I am 1.75. I can't give it two full stars, but I can't, you know, it does have some good things to it. Right. I think that, um, uh, the, the video, uh, presentation, the, you know, the, the, the contemporaneous video that people were taking on board was very interesting.

[00:40:33] And it was, it was gripping, but they just, you know, I, it ended up being fairly lazy. Cause I feel like they got up some people, they checked a few boxes and they said, let's go. As opposed to really, you know, putting together, that was something putting, getting the right people to tell the story and make me like care about the danger and the peril that they're in, which I really didn't feel. You know, there was this one scene where they're saying like, you know, they've got the, the camera going and people are like, oh, everybody wanted.

[00:41:03] They're just saying their name. And so they have video of people saying John Smith, uh, from Iowa city. It's like, Hey filmmakers, there's a John Smith in Iowa city. Why don't you go find him? They just did all the casting for you. You just got like 10 names of somebody else who was on that lifeboat who probably could say it better than the family that a brings a one-year-old on a cruise, a one-year-old for a vacation. Come on, man. You were asking for it. Yeah.

[00:41:33] You know, I'm the one who wishes that, uh, I had remembered my pacifier. So this, you know, it was an interesting idea. It wasn't done well at all. So I am a 1.75, uh, magnifying glasses for shipwreck. Yes. Sarah, how many magnifying glasses are you going to rate shipwreck out of a possible five? Well, I'm probably a two, but then I'm sort of mildly, I'm not, not recommending it. So I feel like I should give it a 2.5, exactly half.

[00:42:01] I think what I'm really missing is there was a moment that I thought Patricia and Nicholas were going to foment revolution. And I feel I was being set up for them to do so. And then they didn't. They were just, I'm sorry, loud, brash Americans. I mean, lucky they were because they saved a whole lot of people. So, you know, let's put it that way. Did they? Well, no, they didn't. No. They think they did. They think they did. And if that's the story that they need to tell, that's, that's sort of, that's fine.

[00:42:31] So I think I've got nothing more to say about the documentary apart from my googing. So I'm going to give it 2.5. How about you, Mari? Yeah, no, that's exactly where I landed. I was going to say 2.5 exactly in the middle because I, I thought there were some good things in there. I don't think it was a waste of time and I learned some stuff I didn't know. Like I, I, I like most people I'm assuming I went in here thinking it was all the captain's fault.

[00:43:00] And I learned a little bit that it wasn't all his fault. I mean, it was his fault that he abandoned ship clearly and didn't tell people the truth and all of that. He might not have completely caused the, the, the grounding, running aground, but he sure participated in that coverup. That was basically a coverup. You know, he led the charge on that. So yeah. So, um, very interesting. Could be told better, but I'll give it a 2.5.

[00:43:30] And now I have to, have to hear what your googing is. Well, like the documentary, I might've oversold it a little bit. Uh, so I felt that the documentary made me think that the black box, so there's a black box recorder and that, that had been found, but that technicians were unable to extract the data from it.

[00:43:55] So we meet Alessandro, who's a computer science researcher, and he doesn't tell us how he did it, but he found a way to break into it. After they give us that information, they talk about how the helmsman got the instructions wrong. And I thought, oh, is that the new thing they found? Side googing, the helmsman was sentenced in July, 2013, along with everybody else.

[00:44:24] So they knew. So in my notes, I've written, not sure why the documentary makes it seem like this is new information. But the biggest, and I'm going to call it a crime, absolute crime, is I was shocked, stunned, startled, and gooped to find Manrico, our hotel manager, who helped evacuate people, stood on a door, fell down into water, broke his leg, and was there from Friday night to Sunday morning.

[00:44:52] And Francesco came and manfully rescued him, and they cried manful Italian tears. Because Manrico was convicted for his role in the evacuation, which was described as chaotic. And he was sentenced to two and a half years in prison. Why did the documentary filmmakers not talk to a person they actually had? Kevin Ware, imagining casting from a group of people that they didn't have access to.

[00:45:20] We are talking to Manrico. And they never say to him, what was it like to be convicted as if you had something to do with this grounding? Shocked. What did he do that was wrong? That he would do? He was right there. He could have told us. I mean, if it's like, well, you're all going down together no matter what, that's like one thing. But yeah, five.

[00:45:47] So the captain got 16 years, and then five others were sentenced to between one and two years. One of those was the helmsman. And one of them was Manrico. And it's like, what? Because he was the, I mean, they did talk about the hierarchy on the line briefly. And I was very interested in that. You know, Manoj tells us what the captain says is true. So when he says there's no problem, then there's no problem.

[00:46:14] You know, the only difference between being a sailor and being a prisoner is that a prisoner is unlikely to drown. Otherwise, it's all the same. Oh, in the toilet. In the toilet, yeah. Yeah, I guess so. Yeah. So that sort of made me cross both things. One, you tried to make me think something was new, like new information. Oh, wow. The helmsman. Yes, he got that wrong. And he said starboard instead of port. Oh, my goodness. This lexic helmsman. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:46:42] They said had he obeyed him, they might have even avoided it. But that was not new information. He was charged for that. But poor old Manrico. Yeah. And that's all I'm about to say. But I think they presented it because it was new information to the public. Because like I said, I didn't know that. And yeah, I don't agree with them doing it like that. But that's what I'm saying. And like that was new to me, you know? That's so weird.

[00:47:10] They should have gone after Rose because she abandoned her post as a dancer. I quit. Get back on that stage. Entertain. Go entertain them. You mean like on the Titanic? Yeah. Yeah, no thanks. It's been an honor serving with you. It's been an honor. Oh, my God. That's horrible.

[00:47:38] Kevin, what do you have to recommend to our listeners? Well, as far as podcasts go, we review quite a bit Crime Writers On. And I tell you, there are two really great ones that we've listened to recently. One is from Serial Productions and The New York Times. It's called The Last 12 Weeks. And it follows a defense team as they try to win a stay of execution for their client.

[00:48:04] And it includes things like, you know, trying to dig up new leads and find new evidence and work the court system. And it's a view that you don't usually get to see. Serial Productions is like their last thing that they did, The Idiot. Like, we really didn't like it. They've been a little hit or miss. But this was a very good one. And another podcast that I'd recommend is called Uncover the Expert Witness.

[00:48:34] This is from CBC Podcast. And they've been very consistent, very good for a long time now.

[00:48:40] And this is also about prosecutors getting convictions using a new evidentiary tool called CyberCheck, which was a computer system that uses historical digital data and GPS stuff and your phone and social media to pinpoint where a suspect was at the time of the crime. And when defense attorneys started looking at this, they were like, is this bullshit?

[00:49:11] And so a couple of defense attorneys looked at it and tried to find the algorithm. And the guy who developed it let them look at the code. And he had a sketchy background. And it's just a really fascinating story. The host is Sam Mullins, who's done some other great stuff like Chameleon Wild Boys and Sea of Lies for Uncover.

[00:49:38] So those are two really great podcasts that we've listened to. And I'm sure everybody's watched Widow's Bay by now. That's a fun. Yes, really fun, really fun. Sarah, what do you have to recommend to our listeners? Well, I am waiting for August to come. I'm not wishing my life away. But when August comes, comes with it. Season two of Ludwig. Now, I've recommended Ludwig before, but if you haven't heard me talking about it, I couldn't help myself.

[00:50:07] I did a rewatch and it was just as good as it had been before. This is David Mitchell, British production. He plays a puzzle setter. He is the most famous puzzle setter. Goes by the name of Ludwig. And his sister-in-law calls him one night and says, get over here. And it turns out that his twin brother, who was a detective inspector, is missing.

[00:50:34] And she needs him to simply just walk into his office in the police station and get his notebook, because everything's in there, and walk out. But wouldn't you know it, when he walks in, he gets taken, of course, to his first crime scene. Which turns out, of course, that he can solve. So every episode, for some reason or other, he can't quite get the notebook or he needs more information or he needs to go back.

[00:50:59] And so he is trying to impersonate his brother, crack the code, figure out what happened. And plus there's a murder of the week, all of which turn out to be logic puzzles, which he solves in one way or another. So it is fantastic. It is slightly lighthearted, but it has a seriousness to it as well. Very, very well made. I fly to England to watch it.

[00:51:26] It's probably on BritBox, I would have thought, for those of you who don't have the wherewithal to do that. And when season two comes, I'll let you know if it's just as good. I'm hoping so. The other thing I have to recommend is a podcast. It's called In Darkness We Rise. And this is Robert Christopher, and he does five to 15 minute snapshots of true crime cases.

[00:51:53] So it's, again, plain, but we sometimes like it plain, and he'll just tell you something. And sometimes we listen to people for two and a half hours talking about the latest thing in the Karen Reid case happily. And other times a five to 15 minute snapshot is for us. So if you are interested in Darkness We Rise, have a listen. Let me know what you think. And what about you, Mari? What have you got to recommend?

[00:52:21] Well, it is the dawn of trashy dating reality TV. Love Island is done, but Married at First Sight. The first three episodes are on Peacock right now. I am in my trashy bag. It is so good. Peacock. The move from Married at First Sight to Peacock has been so interesting and so fascinating. They have new experts this year.

[00:52:49] Of course, after I watch the episodes, I'm going over to our friends, Jason and Asia, at the Love at First Sight podcast and listening to them talk about it. So it is, I'm just having fun with that. That just started. Also, the Vampire Lestat is literally one of the best TV shows on here. I know me and Chappelle probably talked about it on Crime Scene as a recommendation, but

[00:53:17] we are just having so much fun over on Recap Kickback talking about the Vampire Lestat. It's just so good. It's just so good. You should be watching it. Um, also, I, I've been continuing my deadly influence, um, watching. I just really like that series. It is really hitting its stride.

[00:53:40] And they just recently covered a case that I'm like really, really familiar with. A case, uh, on the astrology influencer, TikTok astrology influencer called Mystic Lipstick. And I am familiar with the case because the amazing girls over at Sisters Who Kill covered this case back in December of 2024.

[00:54:09] So I would suggest watching the Deadly Influence episode, which I believe is season two, episode seven, and then, uh, going over and listening to Sisters Who Kill the, the December 6, 2024 episode entitled Danielle Johnson, Mystic Lipstick. But also this was just a really big case at the time because, uh, Danielle Johnson, also

[00:54:35] known as Mystic Lipstick was a very big, well-known influencer to like Twitter influencer, especially like kind of in the black community. She was known for doing like giving like astrology readings, but in such a funny way. Like she would, she would do, she would do like, uh, like a horoscope, basically like a daily horoscope, but it'd be like, it would just be like reading, um, really reading the, um, the signs and stuff like that.

[00:55:05] And she was so funny and, and, uh, she had had her platform for over, it was about eight years or so, um, or almost over, uh, close to a decade. But unfortunately she does end up, uh, killing her boyfriend at the time. And then she drives down the 405 freeway and pushes her two daughters out of her car. One of her daughters is five months old.

[00:55:34] The other one is eight, I believe. And it was, it's a very sad story. It's a very, and it was all spurned on by the, the solar eclipse, the blood, the blood moon solar eclipse. So it's, it's a very sad and fascinating story. I will say the, uh, deadly influence was, it was a good, like kind of precursor or kind of like introduction to the case, but sisters who kill really, really did a great job talking

[00:56:04] about Daniel's motivations, all of the stuff she was posting up until the deaths of her, her family. And then she, um, after she did all that, she intentionally crashed her car into like a, like a highway barricade. So she ended her own life as well. So it's a, it's a very, very tragic story based on a person who was very, very well known. And so, yeah, it, it, it's, it's very interesting.

[00:56:33] I would suggest those if you're looking, if you're looking for true crime, um, recommendations. At Crime Scene, we are eager to hear your feedback and suggestions for future episodes. You can subscribe by going to crime scene pod.com or search crime scene. That's S E E N wherever you get your podcasts. You can follow Crime Scene everywhere at Crime Scene Pod or email us at crime scene pod at gmail.com. You can support us at buymeacoffee.com slash crime scene pod.

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[00:57:31] You can go to mauricraftstomuch.bigcartel.com. And while you're there, you can also look at my other book themed tumblers. If you don't find your favorite book, let me know and I'll make something just for you. But, um, please support crime scene by getting some crime scene tumblers. The link to the store is in the show notes. You can also support us for free. I like that price. That suits my budget. Rate and review crime scene so that others can find us.

[00:58:00] It really does make a difference. But five stars only. Five stars. Do it. Five stars. Thank you, Kevin. So Kevin, what do you have going on and where can the people find you? Yeah, we just started season 11 of These Are Their Stories, the Law & Order podcast. And this is a show Sarah has been on more than once.

[00:58:24] We talk about network TV's most enduring crime franchise and look at the real life cases that inspired their shows. So we'll take an episode of either Criminal Intent SVU or Original Recipe Law & Order. We'll crap on it for 35 minutes. And then we'll talk about the rip from the headlines case that inspired it. So you can find us at lawandorderpodcast.com or wherever you get your podcasts. Like maybe where you're getting this one. You can get us too.

[00:58:54] These are their stories. Still waiting for my invite. Still waiting for my invite. All right. Well, I will take care of that. Thank you. Which flavor are you? Which one do you like the best? SVU. SVU. SVU. SVU. All right. I got one or two we can talk about. Good. Sarah, what about you? What do you have going on and where can the people find you? Other people can find me if they'd like to do so on Blue Sky at Sarah Carradine.

[00:59:22] I'm at Sarah Carradine everywhere, but Blue Sky is where I hang out. And I'm on Babes in the Conclave with Annabelle Fiddler. We are covering as many non-English speaking seasons of The Traitors as we can. You'll find Turkey A season one, Hungary season one and season three and plenty more over there. If it is of interest to you, most of our listeners do not watch the show. They just listen to us being, you know, amusing and charming and whimsical and making up very silly

[00:59:52] nicknames for everybody and then getting completely shocked when we get contacted by the cast members. Shout out Dr. Timmy Rat. We had no idea you were listening. Lucky we said nice things about you. What about you, Mari? Where can the people find you? Of course, you can find me over on Blue Sky at MariTalksTooMuch. That's too like the number two right now. It's all Big Brother all the time. That's what I'm talking about. But also still follow me. It's fun.

[01:00:20] I might peek in there with some witty, something witty, but mostly about Big Brother. Of course, like I said, over on Recap Kickback, me and Chappelle, we're podcasting about the Vampire Lestat and we're finishing up coverage on that. And then we are also smack dab in the middle of House of the Dragon coverage. So we're having loads and loads of fun. Just we're in our fantasy bag and Recap Kickback is it right now.

[01:00:47] So you can go to RecapKickback.com in order to subscribe wherever you get your podcast. But even better, you can go to YouTube.com slash at Recap Kickback and look at our beautiful faces and the really cool pictures that Chappelle brings up as we talk about it. So yeah, definitely go check me out over there. Sarah, what are we watching next week? Next time on Crime Scene, we're covering a toxic love story with Sarah Killeen. Watch it on Netflix and send us your comments and questions.

[01:01:17] Thanks to Kevin Flynn for joining us. Will from America for the theme music. And the people who actually stuck around to help people get off the boat. Until next time. Case closed.