The TikTok Killer LIVE! | Crime Seen bonus episode

[00:00:01] Chibo Oh, fühlt sich das nach Sommer an! Die neue Sommerwäsche von Chibo begeistert mit leuchtenden Farben und fröhlichen Trints. Feine Spitze, leichte Mikrofaser und sommerliche Schnitte sorgen für pures Wohlgefühl, selbst an heißen Tagen. Entdecke jetzt die neue Wäschekollektion von Chibo und finde deine Lieblingsstücke für den Sommer. Das gibt es nur bei G.

[00:00:32] Wieso? Last Call für deine Steuer. Oh no, ich weiß gar nicht, wo ich anfangen soll. Bei Wieso Steuer? Das ist wie Steuererklärung, nur ohne Stress. Ist das einfach? Klar, macht fast alles automatisch. Dauert das lange? Nö, einfach per App. Na dann? Hol dir jetzt dein Geld zurück. Mit Wieso Steuer. Bis zum 31. Juli abgeben.

[00:01:18] I'm Mari Forth. I'm Sarah Carradine. And this is Kripp. Crime Seen. Oh, look at Katie. Hey Katie. What? Um. For what? For watching? Oh, oh. Well, screaming out Katie's name in the middle of the intro is very confusing. I'm so professional.

[00:01:48] We are here live and with us is somebody who is not a stranger to going live with me at least. Katie! For his 14th appearance on Crime Scene. It's Mr. Matt Scott. Matt, how are you? I am phenomenal. And I was having the thought the other day that if you would have told me that we have gone live before on this podcast, I would have said, oh yeah, of course. Like, obviously we've gone live with Crime Scene.

[00:02:18] So, happy to be here for this momentous milestone. Ba-ba-ba-ba! I feel like because we're live, we need to have like the horn and all of it. Yeah. Yeah. We are live today. Um, yeah. We are live today. Why? Because we can. We wanted to do it. We wanted to try it. Yeah. Look at that. Applause. We wanted to have some of our friends, our past and future guests in the chat to, you

[00:02:47] know, chime in as well. So, thank you everybody who's here. Thank you to everybody who plans on coming. Um, but we're also doing this because our, for our fourth pot-a-versary is right around the corner. Yes. Crime Scene has been around for four years. I know. It feels like. It doesn't look a day over one, you know? Exactly. Exactly. It feels like we just started. Um, we also have our 200th episode coming up with our unofficial third chair, Sarah D. Bunting.

[00:03:16] So, keep an eye out for that in the next few weeks. And, of course, if you've been listening, we have a merch giveaway coming up. So, uh, we will get more into that at the end of the episode, but hopefully you've been up to date and you've been keeping live and you know that we're going to be giving away cool merch after this. All right. Um, so. I don't even have it. It's so cool. I don't even have it. Yes, exactly.

[00:03:45] Um, so we're covering the TikTok killer. It's a documentary on Netflix and I know we have a lot to talk about it. So let me just jump into the crime so then we can, you know, chop it up. We can discuss and all that good stuff. So, uh, Demita Motia, also known as Jose Gerardo Motia, uh, was convicted of four murders and sentenced to 123 years in 1987.

[00:04:15] After 28 years, he was released in 2013 from 2013 to 2022. He was just basically walking around Spain, making TikToks of his adventures. Um, in 2023, a woman named Esther Estepa was, uh, reported missing and through lack of police work, little bit of police work, but mostly work, uh, of Esther's family.

[00:04:44] They connected Jose Gerardo to Esther and eventually, um, connected Jose to the killing of another man named David in 2022. So in 2024, Jose was arrested for the two murders of both Esther and David. This, this two part docu-series goes in detail about this case.

[00:05:11] Matt, I absolutely have to start with you because we were just, we were cool, not covering murders. We were like, we're going to have a light month. We're just going to cover dirty, rotten scandals. And then Matt said, uh, I want to cover TikTok murders. Yeah. I said, bring them out, bring them out. Let's have some murder. Um, no, it, you know, honestly, I will say this, like, you know, this Mari, I don't get out of bed for less than $5,000.

[00:05:41] I don't watch a true crime podcast if not for being on crime scene. So I don't watch a true crime documentary if not for being on crime scene. I definitely don't watch a true crime podcast cause this is the only one I'm loyal to, but, uh, yeah, like I need an excuse to watch this and I'm so glad that you were on board. It just the idea too, of the TikTok killer, like the, the name and the branding of it jumped out.

[00:06:07] Uh, when I reached out to you, Mari and Sarah, this was one of the top properties on Netflix. So I was really curious and honestly, I went like running toward you cause I'm thinking, oh my gosh, they're probably recording it right now. So, uh, I'm glad that you weren't and that we can talk about it now. Yeah. Meanwhile, there's us, dirty, rotten scandals, no deaths, no killings. And then the lost women of Alaska come into our lap and we know that we have to cover them. And the TikTok killer comes into our lap. We have no rest for murder. Exactly.

[00:06:36] The moment we try and rest there and we try and do something different, all of these docu series just come knocking on our door. Um, and I would say Sarah that, I mean, this tick, the TikTok killer docu docu series here. Um, it is technically right up Matt's alley. What was your thoughts about seeing a lot of the, um, the TikTok killer? We're going to just keep calling him that a lot of his firsthand recorded footage. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:07:07] Into it, Sarah. Wow. So yeah, I, I was watching it and I have to say spoiler. I really, really liked it. And I was so worried. I thought, oh, Mari's not going to like this, but I was like, oh, it's alive. We can have an argument. You know, they're so sick of us agreeing on everything. Uh, cause there were so many aspects that I know you generally don't like, but me too. So how was it that this documentary became so compelling? We never want to see the killer. We never want to hear from the killer.

[00:07:35] And yet so much of the material is him, uh, on his TikTok. And it, it, again, I just go back to that word compelling. He was difficult to watch and difficult to listen to. And then to see the reactions to him. You're such a great man. You're so wise. You're so kind. Say all his followers on TikTok. And we know, I mean, we know it's him cause it's called the TikTok killer. So I, I liked it.

[00:08:04] They couldn't have not put his TikToks in because her friend, um, Vanessa became very obsessed and was looking for clues to the TikToks and finding his contradictions and so on. And like our man, like Mr. Smith in lost women of, um, Alaska, he couldn't help but record his crime. And it's there on his phone and the police go. Yeah. That's you committing the crime. What's up with these stupid, stupid criminals. Lots to think about lots to talk about Murray, but what about you?

[00:08:34] Yeah. Yeah. I will definitely say, um, yeah, the, this is a two part docuseries. And when I first started it, I was like, Oh boy. At first I was like, Oh no. I was like, okay. Okay. But Matt suggested it. So we have to, I got a message from you saying, I'm trying to watch it. Yeah. Yeah. Extra trauma. I'm sorry. Ew. No, it wasn't the trauma. No, no, no.

[00:09:03] It was, let's go into it. Yeah. It was how it did start off slow. It started off like it. So you can watch it in subs or dubs. I do believe this is, this is based in Spain. So it's Spanish based. And, um, I, I dubbed it. Cause I, I eat with subtitles doesn't doing both. Same.

[00:09:27] And at first it has that dry European presentation of true crime. It's just like, we start off seeing his tick tocks. We start off talking to, um, uh, Esther's friends and family. It's just very people sitting down talking to the camera, just very dry. Right. I was like, okay. Okay. Okay.

[00:09:54] But the way they laid it out, the way that I was like, yeah, we think it's him. And then it's like, also he's a serial killer. Boom, boom, boom. But they didn't even do the boom, boom, boom. You know what I'm saying? It was just so subtle. Right. And again, I hesitate to call it a twist because it, it, it, it, it didn't feel like a twist. Cause it was subtle. They didn't like, like really like tee it up.

[00:10:22] But the fact that by the end of the first episode, they're like, oh yeah, let's, let's now tell you about this, this sweet looking old man from tick tocks back story and history. And I was like, oh wow. So episode two really got me. I was like, oh, this is good. Matt, what were your thoughts on the, the two part concept and everything we just talked about?

[00:10:47] Well, the, the first thing that jumped out to me is that a part one, episode one is 39 minutes, the last message. And then the other one is closer to an hour. It's 54 minutes, the criminal influencer. And I appreciated that because I do feel like there's a tendency to just want to make the episode symmetrical. Like most of the properties we've watched, it's probably a very similar length to them. So I just appreciate that they didn't care about that.

[00:11:16] I also appreciate that it didn't feel like it was extra sensationalized. Uh, I wanted to comment though, on what you were saying earlier about not wanting to see so much of the criminal in this case, the killer. I think that this is actually a great, like the perfect example of where I want to see everything because this person is, I mean, and I don't like to throw this word around cause I don't like to diagnose people, but he's a narcissist.

[00:11:45] And he is someone who wants to paint a certain picture of himself. He wants to brand himself a certain way. TikTok was very much core to it. And in that way, in her intertwined with the crimes, even beyond Vanessa, just looking into them. So, I mean, I, I feel like when we first started on this crime scene journey, almost 200 episodes ago, like I just like, I remember being so enthralled, like by Gladbeck, for instance, where we were getting all this live.

[00:12:15] I have footage in real time. Um, but now I'm kind of amazed. I feel like every true crime documentary or docu series, like should have this type of like real time footage of people just telling on themselves. And I love it. Like that's the thing. I'm okay with people telling on themselves. I don't want to watch people, you know, making themselves look any better. But I mean, again, it's called the TikTok killer. We knew from the beginning that he was full of it. Yeah.

[00:12:44] We knew that he killed Esther, I think, because it's called the TikTok killer, but we didn't know he'd killed those previous four men. Yeah. And that then the young man, the year before he killed Esther. And as one of the people says, well, from 2013, when he got out of jail to 2024, when he was arrested, what was he doing? Was it just two deaths? So it's, it's pretty chilling. And I think, Maria, you're right.

[00:13:13] The way it slowly just builds without the dramatics, just here's a piece of information. Here's a further piece of information. Here's a further piece. And I liked that a lot. Yeah. I have to add though, cause I don't believe I watched, I don't know if I watched the trailer. I can't even remember if I did, but there was a point watching episode one where I thought to myself, wait, is he not the killer? Like, is he helping? And then he identifies another killer. So that did cross my mind at one point.

[00:13:44] Yeah. If I remember the trailer correctly in the trailer, again, they only reference Esther. They only reference like Esther's family saying like, we were trying to prove that he had something to do with her disappearance. At least that's from my memory. So I, I agree with you, Matt. It was one of those things where I was like, they, they did a really good job of, um, I don't know. Like sticking to a flow, making you think it's one type of property.

[00:14:14] And then being like, Oh no, but this is also what, what happened. Oh no. It's right.

[00:14:20] And, and I know again, like Matt said, we don't want to diagnose here, but if I had to guess like what he did, when they go into those four deaths in that first, in the first part of the second, uh, uh, episode, it feels almost like, um, when we see this all the time, right?

[00:14:44] Sarah, when somebody accidentally kills somebody, like, like not on, like it's not his first murder wasn't an accident, but it wasn't planned. It didn't seem planned. Right. He was like in a barn or something. A guy came up on him. They had an argument. He kills that guy. That's what he said. That's what he said. But I mean, like, uh, I don't believe that it was self-defense. I'm saying, I believe that it wasn't a planned murder.

[00:15:13] Now he deliberately murdered him, but it wasn't a planned murder. And after you, you, it's like Pringles. Once you pop, once you do the first murder, I think he, I mean, do we know it's his first though? I mean, do we know it's his first? I mean, I, I, I think this is again, this is what I would have to think.

[00:15:34] I think that's, if that's the first one where we start out, then he starts in that second murder, um, it's a few months later or, or almost a year later. And it's again, another, oh my God, I feel like they were attacking me type situation, but even less so. I shot him and then I burned him, you know, because he was attacking me. Yeah, exactly. And then finally, just to double tap.

[00:16:01] And then finally, the last two murders are like very close together to the third one. And they're just barbaric. There's no rhyme or reason to them. It feels like, um, the, the spree, you know, a spree killer almost. And so he gets caught, goes to jail for 28 years. He gets out. I could, I mean, I could see him resisting for, for a few years, to be quite honest.

[00:16:28] That doesn't mean I don't think that he, that only David and Esther was his, his last two, two victims. But when you spend that much time in prison, I can definitely see you trying to actually enjoy your freedom for a while until that itch kind of comes back. And then you do it again. Yeah. I mean, if you're right, and I think you are. Hi, Cherie. Nice to see you. Hi. That it's, that he's opportunistic. That also makes sense.

[00:16:57] He's not, it may be that he's not a hunter of people, but it may be that when that he's, he's alert to see who comes across his, um, his path, like the two young men that he killed side by side, the two friends, uh, which is just horrible. He came on them sleeping. I mean, you fucking coward. Yeah. Um, I mean, it's all cowardly anyway.

[00:17:19] So I think you could be right that he, because some of his philosophizing that his followers just adored was about, I walk and I look and I talk to people and isn't this amazing. And look at this beautiful place. Um, I've been, I've been to Alicante, which is where a lot of it takes place. And it was quite shaking to me that, uh, that this was taking place there. Uh, because I know that beach. I know that town. I know those people. I don't know them, but you know what I mean?

[00:17:50] His friends of mine have a house there. You know what I'm saying? Um, so it's not that liars can't be good liars. Uh, he is a good liar, but it also could be that part of his philosophizing is actually true. Like that's the thing that he likes to think that he is, uh, like certain survivor players who have a view of themselves as a certain way. And it's how they'd like to be. And they're just, they're not necessarily that way.

[00:18:18] Not that I'm saying that a coach is a murderer. Um, It's like RV and we named names. I mean, coach, coach could be anyone. Like there are lots of coaches. I love coach. I love him, but it's that I, somebody has an idea of themselves so that one of the reasons is TikToks are so compelling is that it's that confabulation where he believes it. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.

[00:18:45] And they did a very good job of like, again, in that first episode, putting out the flowery TikToks, the ones that the reason why he probably has so many followers, the I'm just here meditating. Life is great type ones. And then it just slowly and slowly kind of gets like more just it's sinister because as they're revealing these TikToks, they're revealing the history. Right.

[00:19:11] So it's like, oh, yes, I'm back in this spot here. Oh, this is where my good friend Esther was last seen. Or, oh, there's this 27 year old. She's right off camera. You want to get on camera? No, like not even giving time. No, he had a full, like a full ass conversation with, uh, with nobody. 27 year old. Well, he was amazed that she wanted a 27 year old want to go with him.

[00:19:39] Um, do you want to guess our relative ages? Mine to his. You don't have to say numbers. But what is the difference between our ages and which of us is older? Well, I mean, evil definitely ages you. So for all I know, he might be 21. You know, like I don't know. I have no idea. Yes. For you. This is where I stay out of the conversation. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And, and so.

[00:20:07] Not that that's anything, but it's like that evil. I mean, I know he's had a hard life as well, but there's something. He just said he's four. Oh my gosh, Sarah. That's wild. I think he's like 40 years older. Oh yeah. That's true. Amazing. A socialized, uh, health medicine. Yeah. I know. Oh yeah. We don't have that in. Can't relate. Sorry. Every time I say it.

[00:20:32] No, this is, I, I like, I, I really appreciate the way that they unrolled everything with him. And it really felt like a live, laugh, love moment. Like at the beginning when they were, when they were going into him, he's like, I'm an explorer on this, that, like, I really related to some extent. Not that I'm exploring or walking on trails or doing stuff like that, but like in my work, like there's going out interviewing people and highlighting them. And like, there's a little bit of nature in that. And so I'm like, Oh, interesting.

[00:21:02] Like I did feel, and again, this was when I first started watching, I was like, I felt a little bit of a connection, like appreciating him because I'm sure I follow a number of people like that. And then it just devolved and got dark. I will also say, um, for myself as someone who is a, uh, dubs person, like, I think there's like a whole other experience in, in just doing the subs because his voice is very, um, it, it's jarring.

[00:21:31] Like it's, he sounds, he sounds a little evil. You know what I mean? Oh, wow. Yeah. I didn't even get a chance. I normally, it's a big difference. Not boasting. It's just, I had the, I had the mental space to do it. So I did it, but other ones I've done, I've done the dubs just because there's so much going on and I'm taking notes, you know, Murray, you and I are taking notes and I'm sure you were taking notes too. Yeah. It does make it a little harder, but I was very happy to listen to it in Spanish and,

[00:21:56] and all of them in Spanish, but his voice is peculiar because it's, you're right, Matt, it is repellent, but it's also compelling as he himself. I mean, he is, you know, looks aren't everything, but he, he's hard to look at and the way they unwrapped the tick tocks, they only showed us the good ones first. And then as Vanessa starts digging, we hear the ones where he's talking about beating people up and, and that sort of stuff. But Sarah, you like, you want to look at him too.

[00:22:26] He's just so distinct. Um, you know, it's like, there's something really disarming about him and, you know, they talk about it like, oh, he just feels like he's your grand grandfather or grandpa or whatever. Well, my grandfather was evil too. So he could be my grandpa. It's way too close to home. It is wild though. Cause he just, he, you know, I wouldn't immediately think of him as someone who is, you know,

[00:22:53] going to be out there murdering people, but you know, that's, I think that's part of the, one of the compelling things about the story. Yeah. So, so let's talk about it. So, uh, Vanessa, uh, is trying to get this investigation off the ground. Um, the police are like, well, because of her age, she could have voluntarily left. Um, and once they do connect it to Matia, um, her, Esther's mom starts talking to him via WhatsApp.

[00:23:24] And as she's talking to him, they realized in January, they realized all his backstory, like the, him being in jail for the murders of four people, which apparently for some reason wasn't on his rap sheet. Like when you looked it up. It was in that province. It's like different States, even though they're not different States, but it's that idea of they may not, there's not necessarily, I was surprised too, but I thought it must be like the old days in America where there wasn't a centralized system.

[00:23:52] So they were just seeing thefts in extra Maduro. Yeah. So, and so she finds out in January that he is a murderer and continues to talk to him until May just trying to pull something out of him. Can you imagine you would like it's March right now. And January was so long ago and may is so far from now. Yeah.

[00:24:17] And, and you're, and she's literally talking to the killer of her daughter and she, she thinks this, right? Like she suspects it. That's why she's keeping him talking. She wants to get him to, you know, slip up, say something. He shouldn't give her a clue. Right. And she knows this, but by the time it's the end of the documentary and they confirm that he is the murderer.

[00:24:46] That's when we see her break down and she's almost like, I can't believe it. Sarah, how, how powerful was that? It was almost like she, it's like she knew it, but then knowing it was just heartbreaking all over again. Almost. Pepper is like obviously the beating heart of the documentary, although Raquel is to sister also. And you think, how did you, how do you get through having a missing child at all?

[00:25:16] Right. And then to find that this man who's ringing her and saying, Oh, Pepper, I'm walking the walk that I walked with her. I'm determined to find out what happened to my friend. He knew her for 21 days. Uh, they had romantic moments under bushes. Lovely. She, the strength that she had, and then she went on television and, and her husband wouldn't be, and he knew not to. And he was right. Cause he's an angry man. He said, don't put me on the television. I'm too angry.

[00:25:44] So she began this, what we see quite commonly in, in our countries, but we're not so aware of there. This sort of campaign of making herself the face of find my daughter, find my daughter. And I have to say, I don't cry at many of these documentaries, but when everybody met at the end, I was just like, uh, and when Raquel talks about her mother and saying, how do I tell her I'm a mother too. And now I know I must tell her about something that's happened to her daughter.

[00:26:13] So, so sorry, I'm going around and around again, but I think that Pepper is, I think the documentary becomes at least 50% less compelling if we don't have Pepper. I completely agree. Yeah. Um, this documentary did a very good job of, um, centering Esther while also unfurling Jose Jurado's story. Like it's, it's, it's very, it was very well done and very balanced.

[00:26:42] Um, even with like, I don't mind seeing his TikToks. Like I said, I, I, I normally don't like to hear from the perpetrator when what they're saying does not add anything to the documentary, to the conversation. Anything we, you know, we just saw that, um, in, um, lost woman of Alaska. Yeah. But Brian, get him off my screen. Exactly. So this, this was, this I thought was apt.

[00:27:08] The fact that he's sending her WhatsApp voice messages, which are saved and they have them here in the documentary. Like it took so much strength for Pepper, Esther's mom to do that. And again, she's doing that because the police investigation is lagging. Um, so Matt. Okay. I was just going to say, we get to the end and now we get the investigative parts. Yeah.

[00:27:38] Lagging is generous. Like they were not, there was not an attempt and they, they make a point here to say like, if this was, you know, if this was like someone who was viewed as more important, they would have been on it within 24 hours. Um, so it, it, you know, that's one thing I really did appreciate about the documentary is that. It just showed how incompetent the police were.

[00:28:02] Um, and you know, you have to appreciate that because they should be getting dragged for not doing anything. And that's, that's one of the beautiful things about a documentary like this, that it, it does really, you know, I think it puts pressure on the police to a level that who knows might lead to some change in some action in the future. Um, unless there's, you know, they're, unless they want another documentary coming out.

[00:28:31] That's talking about how horrible they are. And then they're asked questions about why they didn't do this and why they didn't do that. So, you know, we do sometimes talk about the role of media and how it impacts the story. But I think that one of the really powerful ways or positive versions of that is these documentaries, which just drag the police for not doing anything or give them credit when they do do something. But that doesn't happen all that much. Yeah. I mean, they were certainly investigating David's murder fairly diligently.

[00:29:00] Um, he was alive before he died as indeed are we all, but he was alive in order to be able to give his own father information about this older man that he'd seen. And they had DNA on his backpack, which they linked to our TikTok killer. Um, he was alive in order to be able to get his own father.

[00:29:23] And he was alive in order to be able to get his own father. And he was alive to be able to get his own father.

[00:29:46] And I think that he was alive in order to be able to get his own father. And he was alive in order to be able to get his own father. And he was alive in order to be able to get his own father who says, yes, I spoke to them. And they said, well, in the morning I turn on the computer and if there's nothing there, I turn it off.

[00:30:17] Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. Hmm. I mean, if you want to get to the women in the shelter, did you have something to say about them? Because I was going to move on to something different. Oh, okay. Well, just, uh, that there is, there's a group of, if you haven't seen it, there's a group of people who are, who keep Esther on the top of their mind. Her mother, her father and her sister, her friend, Vanessa, and Vanessa's husband, who feel really guilty because they had her to stay. And then they said, actually, you have to go.

[00:30:45] Um, and then these two women that, that she meets in the women's shelter and, apropos their lives, one of them says, yeah, we had a lot of rules and we had a lot of restrictions to be able to live in the shelter. And the people who abused us are living freely. So again, there was this, this idea of imbalance, um, that went through a lot of that. That was all I wanted to say. And then they all met in the cafe at the end and I cried. Yeah, they did.

[00:31:15] Yeah, exactly. Um, I will say just, just on that with the friends from the shelter, I mean, that really, again, I like how you phrase that, Sarah, that there were a lot of themes that were touched on, but one of them is just kind of like the cycle of violence.

[00:31:33] And how, you know, like, she was in Esther was in another relationship with a man who was abusing her and then ended up in this place, the shelter. And then they comment on the shelter. I think it's in Carney because Elena and Carney, but and Carney is talking about how the shelter is worse than jail.

[00:31:55] Um, it just makes you think, um, and obviously not a safe environment over or not a, not an environment that people want to be in overall, but definitely not as safe as it should be. Yeah. Yeah. So, um, let's get to the, near the end. Uh, the question from Katie there. Maybe I missed this. So Katie, but exactly how long did it take for Esther's case to be solved? Uh, two years.

[00:32:25] Yeah. Two years from her disappearance to his arrest. Yes. So for David three, three years, um, because he was arrested for both of the killings. Boo! She says, yeah, great. Yeah, right. Yes. But, so they do end up, uh, finding her because they, they do end up going, they say they go back to the last place he saw her because he kept harping on this hospital, the last hospital he saw her in, in, in, in Gandia.

[00:32:53] And they finally go and they look around there and they find her body in, um, in, uh, the canals. Mm-hmm. Sherry says, I don't have Netflix anymore. I understand. Good for you. I rarely even watch the docs you cover. I just enjoy listening to you guys. Thank you so much. Thank you so much. I love that. We appreciate it so much. We are here to cover the things so you don't have to watch them. Mm-hmm.

[00:33:18] Um, but they, they, they finally searched this canal because they actually lucked up on her skull. Like that, that's how this always happens, right? It's like a tourist just walking. So lucky they find the skull. Like us. Yeah. So they then are led to her body. They, uh, find a pieces of her clothing. Um, and so this finally gets the ball rolling. I, I do believe they find his DNA on her body.

[00:33:47] It was, or, or. They find the impression of a crucifix on his skull. Yeah. On her skull, yeah. And he has the crucifix. So it means he went back and, he went back and got it. So the crucifix. So on one of his returns, he went back and got it. So that he, so it sounds like, and I don't know if they gave an estimate for how long the crucifix was there, but it sounds like it was there for a long time from how, what they were talking about. Not about nine months. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Mm-hmm.

[00:34:15] So, because he kept saying, this is where I last saw her. That's the bench I last saw her. There's the castle where he went. So if you haven't seen it, he walks, he walks the length and breadth of Spain, but he returns over and over again to various places. And under the guise of looking for my friend, he walks the walk that they walked, uh, several times. And that's when, when Vanessa in particular realizes he always comes back to this place. And they compare the TikToks to the actual place.

[00:34:44] I thought that was extraordinary, Mari. Yeah, exactly. Like, again, it's that compulsion for him to revisit his, his crimes. Um, cause he also had, uh, TikToks in some of the other places from the other murders. And it's that narcissism. It's that revisiting the crime scene, that knowing a secret that others don't know, you know? Uh, so it, it, it really is. It was just, ugh.

[00:35:12] I mean, it's, yeah, it's, ugh. But it is interesting cause you're like, what are you, I, I, I wish I could understand more of what was going on, you know, uh, labeled him a narcissist already. Great.

[00:35:27] But like, he is on TikTok and I, I had to write, I can't even read some of it cause it's so disturbing, but like just the love poems, love in air quotes that he would share, or he talked about how she left such a mark on him. And like, we spent 21 days together, but like, you're basically, you're the love of my life. Um, he films the bush where they were romantic twice.

[00:35:53] I was gonna say, survivors 26 days and we do not see that level of connection. So, mister, you're absolutely right. Mister says this man was so sloppy with his murder trophy TikToks. It's wild how he didn't get caught for so long. Exactly. And if you watch Lost Women of Alaska, you'll see a very similar thing where someone was operating pretty stupidly and in plain sight. Uh, and we've come across this before. We don't want to give criminals tips, but we said, keep being dumb, please, because you're being bored.

[00:36:22] Is it also a compulsion just to share and to like, to, like, to play, like playing people's faces, basically? Yeah. Here I am. Playing in the faces. You know, like, and he's out there lying, making up a 27 year old who he's pretending to have a conversation with. Like, I have to wonder, is he, does he like stop recording and then just like laugh? Like, what is going on?

[00:36:49] I don't, I, I, maybe that's the part that's so twisted is like, it, we still don't really know what's going on in his mind, but hopefully we find, I don't want to hear it. But I, I would like to kind of know what, what's going on there. And I don't think you'll be honest about it either way. So we probably won't find that out.

[00:37:09] Well, again, it is just that, that common thread with, with a lot of the, of those trophy serial killers, because when they do arrest him for both David and Esther's murder, he has a phone on him. And unfortunately that phone has some very disturbing pictures of Esther's final moments. Trigger warning everybody. Yeah. Yeah. Big, big, big trigger warning.

[00:37:33] Um, and so they confirm with Esther's family, like he does have pictures of a sexual assault and of her, her, her body on his phone. Uh, so like, again, somebody, he was somebody we knew that we knew recorded everything. And this was just something he could not avoid recording again. It's again, that sloppy is so sloppy of him.

[00:37:59] So he is awaiting, um, he's in jail, awaiting, um, sentencing or awaiting trial. Sorry. To me, I'm like guilty. Yeah. He's done. I just happen to have a different man's, uh, sexual assault and murder on my phone. Not me. Exactly. Not to be there when someone else did it. Any final thoughts before we get into our writing ratings? Well, yeah. I mean, I just, there's so many different details that came up along the way.

[00:38:26] There was like, there, it's so much that we, we haven't gotten to in the weeds. So I would encourage folks to check it out. Like they talk about the, um, almost like the triangle of murders. I do think it's really, um, interesting is a little bit too generous, but interesting that he just walks everywhere by trail.

[00:38:49] Um, somehow carrying, apparently carrying a shotgun along the way, or at some point he was, um, there's something called a blah, blah car. That I didn't know about. Yeah. Do you not know a blah, blah car? No. What is that? Oh, it's, uh, it's, uh, community shared vehicles. Like Uber. So I'm going to, I'm going to Melbourne. I'm going to, everybody who's listening, you see, you should have been on the live cause I'm going to pretend to text. I'm going to Melbourne.

[00:39:19] Who's driving to Melbourne? And someone says, I'm driving to Melbourne. Blah, blah car. Yes. Carpool. Blah, blah. Blah, blah car. So then I'm driving to Melbourne. Blah, blah car. Somebody come with me to keep me company or help pay for petrol or whatever you would like. Is this again, is it more like Uber? Is it cause it sounds like hitchhiking, but like, is it safe? I mean, is Uber safe? Is anything safe? Oh God. We're watching too much crime.

[00:39:47] I hitchhiked all through the seventies and eighties. Well, okay. Here's my, here's, you know, I didn't really get. I just want to give you hitchhiked. Okay. Sarah, you're still alive though. That's the thing. I will also say, I mean, the, the, uh, the car carpool situation service is referenced because she's basically scheduled the blah, blah car to pick her up. So that was also some evidence that pointed to something.

[00:40:16] So yeah, there's like, just like Uber or Lyft, like there's a way of tracking to some extent. So that's reassuring. Mari, let's just assume. I mean, that's one of the reasons. For the peace of mind over the listeners. That's one of the reasons that. I don't know. It was very strongly thought that she didn't leave, you know, disappear of her own accord was because she wanted to get to Valencia and she'd connected with this person who was driving to Valencia and the person went to pick her up at the meeting spot and she wasn't there

[00:40:45] and there was, and messaged her and there was no message. So even though someone could blow off such an arrangement, it's points much more to the fact that she wanted to leave and was prevented, I think. Yeah. Especially since we, we do, um, that when they get to, into Jose's phone data, her phone, uh, is seen connecting to his hot, hot spot after they, they have confirmed her, her murder, or her, the, the date and time of his, her murder.

[00:41:12] So, uh, saying that she's not there and that he doesn't know where she is. Exactly. So, you know, kind of open and shut to me. Let's move on to our ratings. Uh, Matt, how many magnifying glasses are you going to rate the TikTok killer out of five? Ooh. Okay. I'm giving it five out of five. Like I, I really appreciated all of the real time footage down from, from his takeoff.

[00:41:42] TikTok down to the point where he was like in, uh, bar Benito, by the way, shout out to bad bunny, uh, but bar Benito, like, and he was like, he looked up, we see him look over his shoulder and then there's another shot of the cops getting him. So I really appreciated like that. Um, just how much information that gave us. And also the citizen, um, detectiveness, uh, that, uh, detective work that Vanessa was doing. Uh, like I said, footage from the perpetrator was uncanny.

[00:42:12] I loved the, or really appreciate the representation of the family here and learning more about Esther. Um, this really felt like real. It's definitely recent. It feels relevant. TikTok is in there. We got more of the police's role. We heard a little bit about media's role, which, you know, I always love when they're like, stop talking about the case. Stop sensationalizing it. Um, and then, uh, I really, to Sarah's point, I really loved the heartwarming moment where

[00:42:40] all of the, uh, all of the people, the friends, the family came together and, uh, it was beautiful. And it's interesting because I'm imagining a world where just to talk about that scene for a second, like I'm imagining a world where the producers of the documentary might've been, why don't you all just like get together? You know, like we could do a whole thing and whether or not they prompted that or not, I, I just felt like there was a little bit of a sense of like closure and beauty at the end of this and in a really, uh, ugly situation.

[00:43:10] So I, five magnifying glasses for me. Um, and I definitely enjoyed this, like obviously rough case, but like I enjoyed the experience of like watching and trying to understand what was going on. Um, really a lot. So please don't give it less than like two magnifying glasses or else I'll have to change my rating. You've opened the door. Sarah, how about you? How many magnifying glasses are you going to give this docuseries, the TikTok killer? Come on. Five. I really, really liked it.

[00:43:40] And Matt, thank you for bringing it to us because I may not have got to it partly because there's a lot of stuff and also partly because Mari and I are taking, you know, no murder march, which turned out to be very murder march with serial killers. Two serial killer things. Murder madness. Yeah. That's what it matters. I think, I think it's, look, I imagine that it was the producers that said to the people all, all come into it and join in the cafe, but it didn't feel overproduced.

[00:44:07] And I was particularly moved when the two men, the stern father and the Hudson, Vanessa's husband who blames himself for saying that, that she had to go when they met and that sort of manly hugging they were doing. And I was like, but I, I like this a lot. The recreation that they do have. And we've just posted our coverage of Dirty Rotten Scandals, America's Next Top Model, where we complain about the recreations.

[00:44:33] Here, the recreation is a man, similar physique, shot from behind and above, walking, walking, walking, walking, walking over all these different paths and terrains and places. And I love that we would have his TikToks of a place and then we'd have these crisp, you know, high definition drone shots of the place. And I liked that because it was like, this is how we experience it through a TikTok, but this is actually how it really is.

[00:45:02] And the two are the same place and yet not the same place. And so when you start seeing him walking and walking and walking, you think that's sort of amazing, you know, put a backpack on and just walk and don't own anything. And, uh, and even he says like a man can do this. I know a woman can't do it. So wow. Acknowledging privilege, right? And that it could be amazing and saying, oh, you're wonderful. You know the history of all the areas and I'm learning so much.

[00:45:28] And as you continue to see same angles, same shot, different terrain, following him behind, as we start to learn about him, it becomes this stalking of an alert predator who's not necessarily hunting, but he's not going to say no if, if a weak creature comes in front of him. I think the backwards and forwards in time, even without a timeline, was perfection.

[00:45:56] I knew exactly where we were at every moment. So I, it's, it's tough, but it's so well made and it's so interesting. And we see a lot of American stuff. I love America. I love America. I love Americans, but it's nice to sometimes get a different sensibility. And I think we find that with these European things. So that's why we call on Matt. And so it was nice to get that slightly different feel and sensibility. Anyway, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, five stars. How about you, Mari?

[00:46:27] I, you know, I want to be like, ah, five stars, but there's nothing I can take a star away from. Like, to be quite honest, both of you summed it up very well. I mean, a well done docu-series with only two episodes, with short episode 3954, didn't overstay its welcome. Didn't feel like I have more questions. I feel like I know everything about this case. Yeah. Perfect. 10 out of 10. No notes.

[00:46:59] Do we cheer? Do we, could we cheer? I don't know if there's a... Well, yeah. People are dead. Well, you had the cheer sound effect at the beginning. That's true. I'm just happy about the documentary. Shining light on the people. Obviously, if we hear news of his trial or his conviction, we're going to tell you. Sorry, Matt. Yeah. No, that's actually the one part that really bothers me. But, and again, why I'm thankful for the docu-series.

[00:47:25] But, like, it's rough that we still don't have a conclusion on the case. And yet it's like, throw the book at him. What are we doing? But I'm glad that more people could be aware because I think that that might actually help and affect the case in a way that leads to justice for Esther, for the family, for everyone affected, for everyone else who's been murdered by this, you know, insane murderer. Well, there may be no bodies, right?

[00:47:55] There may be more bodies. There might be. Probably. Yeah, they might have to get somebody to comb through his TikToks. Yeah. And see where he returns. Where he was, yeah. Did I mishear that when they're in the canal talking about they found her skull and then they found her body, which is a horrible image. Her skull was not with her body. Right. They said, and 60 other bones? 60 bones, yeah. Bones of what?

[00:48:23] I don't know if they were like parts. Like, I don't, I don't know how bones were. I don't think it was part of Esther because I said her skull and her body and 60 other bones. I thought, wow. Oh, I thought I, yeah, I thought they were her. It was her. I don't know. I don't know. It's horrible either way. Yeah. Um, so. Oof. Oh, no. Okay. Rough times. Yeah. Oh, no. She was so rough. We're live. We're very live. Yeah. We're live. Yeah. We're live.

[00:48:53] So, Shira, you see how often we say um? You don't hear that on a normal podcast. Mm-hmm. So, any recommendations by any chance? Recommendation follow-ups? Sarah, you have any recommendations? Uh, well, I talked, uh, on the episode that's on the main feed now about some very exciting shows coming up. I'm sort of waiting for those. I didn't expect, well, you all know that we're reality TV people, so if you don't like talking about reality TV, turn off now.

[00:49:23] Um, I didn't expect Survivor 50 to be as good as it is. I thought it was going to be terrible. Of course, I was going to watch it and harumph and grump. It's been great until the latest episode where apparently, according to IMDB, it is the lowest rated Survivor episode of all time.

[00:49:52] So, that's a non-recommendation. Well, just expect to spend about 30 minutes and then finger on the fast forward. There's a lot to fast forward. There's somebody who's not on the show spearfishing for 20 minutes. Sorry. It was only 20 minutes? It felt like a lot longer than that. So, boo. Right. But Survivor 50 is great. Australian Survivor has, has just completely lost the plot as, which is what we absolutely love. So, that's going wild. I now know I'm going to the live finale.

[00:50:21] So, I'm very excited about that. So, I recommend following me for everything that you, that you need to know. But no, I'm not, I haven't been cracking open any new shows, Murray. I'm going to start Jury Duty business group. What's it called? Company Retreat. Company Retreat. Company Retreat. And Deadlock season two, uh, tonight, my time. Yeah. Jury Duty, like the show. The show. Yeah. It's coming back.

[00:50:51] Oh, there's a season two. Oh my gosh. Yeah. That's so funny. I don't think I knew that, but I just watched season one all over again last weekend. So, I'm in. So, Company Retreat is so fun. Wow. I'm in. Matt, how about you? Any recommendations or anything? I haven't watched, yes. I haven't watched this, but, um, on Netflix, I, I'm going to check out, uh, from Lewis Thoreau, British journalist, award-winning British journalist.

[00:51:17] There's Inside the Manosphere, which I feel like, I feel like this is, uh, I don't know. It's just interesting watching all of this and seeing this man featured in the documentary. Um, I don't know, Inside the Manosphere feels like a spiritual cousin to men doing horrible crimes. So, you know, I'm going to check that out. If you want to hear a fascinating discussion about it, go to Recap Kickback and listen to Mari and Chappelle talk about it. Yeah, I know. I need to check that out.

[00:51:47] But, you know, I'm also, speaking of Recap Kickback, I'm sure Mari and Chappelle and I will be on there soon talking about another Netflix property called Beauty and Black, which is back to, right now, right now as we're recording this. So, um, I might not sleep for the next, well, you know, next several weeks because I'll just be watching it again and again and again. But I'm, we'll hopefully be talking about that again soon over on Recap Kickback. Yes, exactly.

[00:52:14] Um, y'all, y'all basically took all my recs. Oh, no. Um, uh, I am, so two anti-recs, I guess. I'm watching Age of Attraction on Netflix and I don't know why. Like, why am I watching this? This was... I did have that pulled up because it looked a little interesting, but I don't think that the execution, the execution seems like it'll be trash. Exactly. The execution is, it's a lot of me just being like, they're still working that, working

[00:52:44] through that, you know? Um, and the only reason why I even started watching it is because our, our friends over on the Love at First Sight feed, Asia and Jason are covering Age of Attraction. This second drop was just like, oh my God, what is, why are we here? And then come to find out, um, that they might, like the contestants might not have known that this was the show they were coming on.

[00:53:09] Apparently, a few of the contestants, the younger ones, shocker, thought that they were on Too Hot to Handle. They, yeah, they thought they were like, you know, because Netflix is like, oh, we were casting you for a show. Oh, I hate that. That's the snake eating itself because they go on Too Hot to Handle thinking they're going onto a different show. Yeah. I feel like there was another, yeah, maybe it was Too Hot to Handle. I feel like there's like another show that did a similar thing to that with like hot young people.

[00:53:38] I don't remember what it was, but I really don't like that. What do you mean? What do you mean? Well, the hot was in there. Bunny is. The hot and young was in air quotes. I think, I think Netflix does that a lot because I think they did it with a sibling one, the dating, the sibling dating one where I forget what that's called. Yeah. But yeah. So after I found that out, I was like, well, now that makes sense. I was like, that actually makes a lot of sense that they thought they were on another place. So I would not recommend that.

[00:54:08] Also, the new Bachelorette season was just canceled as well. So sorry to our friends Haley and Amy, who I'm pretty sure would have brought us great coverage of a shite season, but they they're canning it all together. So. All right. Yeah, it's not all right. I mean, I guess it's it's so strange how that all works out. And them canceling the season all comes down to like, I don't know.

[00:54:37] I don't have an opinion on if they should have done it or not. I'm not watching. But the Bachelorette anyway or the Bachelor anyway, but like, it just all comes down to the corporations protecting themselves. Look at that. Oh, my gosh. I can go on a rant. But yeah. Yeah, it was. They were losing sponsorships once the video of Frankie Paul came out. And it's just like, but y'all knew that this is who she was when he signed on to it. This was a very costly publicity stunt for them.

[00:55:04] They knew she was very kind of toxic and problematic before they booked her. They then went through a whole they filmed a whole season with her. And now you just wasted all of that money and all that time. And now you got to fill what four hours of television space for the next six weeks. Shocker. Because I know the Bachelorette's on two nights normally. It's normally on two nights and for about like two hours a night. So very interesting to see how what they do with that.

[00:55:32] James said it might be a whole bunch more basketball. But Katie in the chat says Milf Island did it. Horrible. Correct. I think our friends, I think we got to ask Chappelle. I think our, or is that Milf Manor? Milf Manor, I think. Milf Manor, yeah. Too many Milfs. Too many Milfs. Yeah, too many Milfs. So that's it for our recommendations.

[00:56:00] We know a lot of our listeners love the recommendations section. Sherry is one of them. At Crime Scene, we are eager to hear your feedback and suggestions for future episodes. You can subscribe by going to CrimeScenePod.com or search Crime Scene. That's S-E-E-N wherever you get your podcasts. I'm supposed to say something now. Something, something. BuyMeACoffee.com slash Crime Scene. Oh my God. Live.

[00:56:33] CrimeScene everywhere at CrimeScenePod or email us at CrimeScenePod at gmail.com. Huge thanks to our members who support us on Buy Me A Coffee. They get exclusive bonus content, including the audio of this episode. If anyone in the chat wants to join us and get a chance to win a piece of merchandise that Mari is going to just hold up right now. No? Wait, is she going to hold it up? You didn't even give me a chance to hold up the merchandise. Hold up the merchandise. Hold it up.

[00:57:03] If you go to BuyMeACoffee.com slash CrimeScenePod and join, you will automatically be entered into the drawer for this beautiful, beautiful merchandise. Mari, stop moving them so much. It is so beautiful. I'm not good at being a Vanna White or Kiki Shepherd. Kiki Palmer? Kiki Shepherd. Oh, I didn't hear who you said. Kiki. So we're going to do the drawer on Friday, March 20th at 9 p.m. Eastern. So if you want one of those. And by the way, these are gorgeous.

[00:57:32] I love, I mean, and we just had St. Patrick's Day this week for the people who celebrate that, you know, you can get your cup because it really matches St. Patrick's Day vibe or if you like the color green or if you like glitter or if you like fabulous things. Mari, Sarah, I need my cups. Matt, you're getting it? Yeah, you will get it. You'll get it? All our 10 timers are getting it. Good. Matt, what do you have going on and where can the people find you?

[00:58:02] Oh my gosh. I have like, I'll have no plugs here just to tell folks to follow me at Matt Scott GW on the platforms, but especially on Blue Sky. And I'm just happy to be here. The people could find me here and watching Survivor 50 and on all sorts of other random stuff, which you could check out. But look, I don't know. Do the people know where they could find either of you? Sarah, where can the people find you? The people can find me on Blue Sky at Sarah Carradine.

[00:58:32] They can listen to Dirty Rod and Scandals E, America's Next Top Models in our feed right now. And next week we're finishing the series with The Price is Right with Mike Bloom. So check it all out. Mari, what about you? Yes. You can find me over on Blue Sky at Mari Talks Too Much. That's two like the number two. You can also find me at the aforementioned Recap Kickback. You can go to RecapKickback.com to subscribe or go to YouTube by going to YouTube.com slash

[00:59:02] at Recap Kickback. We are having a lot of fun over there. So make sure you subscribe to Recap Kickback where you'll get more of Matt and me, Matt and Chappelle covering Beauty and Black. Jason will be joining us to cover Cross. And we have a lot of stuff coming down the line. The Vampire Lestat and House of the Dragons season three. So make sure. Oh, Sarah's coming on. I'll be making my debut with Jirajiji Company Retreat.

[00:59:32] Yep, there you go. One of Mari's other favorite shows on there is the Wrestling Kickback where about every month or so, especially with WrestleMania coming up, we talk about wrestling. So check that out over on Recap Kickback. Yes, exactly. So next time on Crime Scene, like we said, we will be finishing up the E! Dirty Rotten Scandals trilogy with The Price is Right.

[00:59:59] And Mike Bloom will be on to talk to us about that. So thanks to Matt Scott for joining us. Will from America for the theme music. And thanks to all of you for joining us here in the chat and joining us live. And all of our members who are listening to us as well. Until next time. Case closed!