Swipe Right On The Devil | Crime Seen episode 222

[00:00:24] Hello everyone, I'm Sarah Carradine, podcasting from Unceded Gadigal. Mari Forth And this is Crime Seen, the true crime review podcast where we get to the heart of how true crime stories are told. So Jeremy has become a member at the forensic investigator level. Thank you so much, Jeremy. It's so generous. And Anna has become a supporter. We're glad to have you. Last week we watched the new Stanford Prison Experiment with Caroline Cordes.

[00:00:52] Wingnut on Blue Sky skeeted. The new Stanford Prison Experiment was a cool concept that could have really been something, but it wasn't. It pulled on so many potentially fascinating threads, but none of them ever went deep enough. The episodes often felt contrived and authentic and shallow. It wasn't bad, but it wasn't good either. There were so many great characters and situations I actually liked and sometimes loved, but overall was disappointed in the execution.

[00:01:21] It should have been at least 10 episodes. Yes. Fully and completely agree. Yes. And Three Leos said, Felt like it would have been better without the empty podcasty commentary the whole time. I found it irritating. Like the commentary for those three hosts. Experts. Experts. Yeah. They were as expert as the experts in Married at First Sight, in my opinion. Yes. But even worse, it reminds me of, I watch a lot of Korean like dating shows and stuff like that.

[00:01:51] And they always have like a panel of like four to five hosts talking about what they're seeing. And normally in that context, I like it. In this context, I did not like it. No, but they added nothing and they didn't highlight any of the actually interesting things that were going on. Yes. And shout out to Wingnut, Monica, I believe. Monica, yes. I'm pretty sure. We were talking about this and I mean, I cannot agree with that statement more.

[00:02:19] It was like, I love this, that, and I hate it now. And oh my God, you guys suck. I want more. That's exactly what it was. It's absolutely true. And in other news, everybody, Melanie Linsky, adore and love her, has signed on to portray Erin Patterson. If you don't know who Erin Patterson is, she is the so-called Leon Gaffer mushroom murderer. Yes, yes, yes.

[00:02:48] A lot of you have asked us to talk about the mushroom murders and murderer. So we'll wait until that comes out to talk about that. The series is co-created by Anya Berenstorff, who wrote on apple cider vinegar. Dana Reid, who directed episodes of The Handmaid's Tale and producer Deb Balderson, six part series. Mari, are you in? Yeah, sure. When I saw this and I saw you were excited about it, because it's from your neck of the woods, right? Sure is.

[00:03:16] It's Leon Ganther in Victoria. Yeah. So when I saw this, I was like, I need to go look into that case. It sounds vaguely familiar. Yeah. She invited her in-laws and her ex-husband over and made beef wellington with death cap mushrooms. Yeah. That's not funny. Yes, it's not funny. People died Murray. Sarah, what do we watch this week? Well, everyone, it's spooky season. So we watched one about witches and one about ghosts.

[00:03:45] Our main topic is Swipe Right on the Devil on Disney. It was directed by Brian Bagel. And joining us for the sixth time, she loves a cult. From Orgasm Inc. to the Saviour Complex. It's Gia Worthy. Hey, Gia. Mari and Sarah, I am so happy to be back for my sixth time. I really need to buy myself a robe. I feel like I really want a five-timers club robe. I love coming on the crime scene. I love to yap with both of you.

[00:04:14] And you guys have a really good one to discuss right before Halloween. So I am very excited to get into everything. I mean, you could get a t-shirt just like our t-shirts that are available at maricraftstomuch.bigcartel.com. You know, our crime scene t-shirts. We'll be talking more about that later. But Gia, six times. So you're right up there with Kirsten in Asia, I believe. You are one-upping them. So we're trying to create competition. Yes, we love it.

[00:04:43] I am honored. Listen, if there's a competition involved, I'm first in line to do my best to make sure I am at least in the top ranking of returnee guests. So I'm excited at the prospects of it. Yes. We just created another tier because Chappelle and Matt Scott are kind of running away with it, even though Jason Reed is really hot on their heels. Yeah. And Mark Blankenship as well, though we miss him. We haven't seen him for a while.

[00:05:11] But he was our fastest returnee and rapidly racked up a number of appearances. So no one's ever catching third chair Sarah DeBunting, but you can try. Yeah. Do my best. Do your best. So let's get to the crime. In November 2017 in Wilbur, Nebraska, an actual place, 24-year-old Sydney Luth set out for a second date with a woman she had matched with on Tinder. The day after, Sydney was reported missing when she failed to appear at work

[00:05:39] or answer any text or phone calls from her family. Three weeks later, her body was found along a gravel road, 60 miles from her date location, and horribly she had been dismembered. Two suspects, Bailey Boswell and Aubrey Trail, that's a young woman and an older man, were arrested concerning her murder. The suspect's story had changed throughout time, still continued to change. Initially, Boswell and Trail denied involvement in her killing,

[00:06:06] but after the discovery of her body, Trail confessed to the killing while Boswell maintained innocence. The prosecution had store receipts and video evidence that showed that they had both bought a murder kit at Home Depot the day before the killing. Don't buy everything all at once. Don't buy your zip ties and your tarp and your bone saw all in the same place. They still, after doing reconnaissance on her, after following her for a second, then they bought the bones. Then they bought the bones and then the date.

[00:06:32] So Aubrey Trail was sentenced to death and he remains on death row, and Boswell was sentenced to life in prison. Gia, I'm coming to you. I couldn't be the only queer person on this panel. What were your overall thoughts? Because that summary was not even a tenth of what we're going to talk about. I mean, there's so, even when you were saying it, just remembering the different things that happened in each episode, it was just like, and then we found out this, and then this happened.

[00:07:01] There was so much to uncover. I think a big part of it was obviously the initial hook of it, obviously, is like the swipe right part. They met on Tinder and then they learned more about the individual that was on Tinder and was not, she was not using her real name when she was using it. And there's so many other factors that go into what led to all of the horrible tragedies

[00:07:29] because it wasn't even just, there is one murder that we are discussing here, but even a lot of the talking heads that we see throughout the three episodes are people that were directly impacted, either victims themselves, of this, I want to say trafficking and, or victims in an abusive situation at the very least, or people like family members, not just of the deceased, but of like other people involved in the documentary as well.

[00:07:58] And it really, it really, I don't want to say opened my eyes, but it really unfolded a lot for me of just how deep this went outside of an already devastating tragedy. Yeah, absolutely. Mari, what were your overall thoughts? And then we will dive deep because it is twisty and turny. Overall thoughts was my, my assumption about what this was changed at least 8 million times. Yes.

[00:08:27] When, when me and Sarah first were like, oh, swipe right on the devil. We're like, ah, has to be like another LoveCon thing. Okay, LoveCon, let's find some people who are LoveCon. Then I watched the trailer. I was like, oh, this isn't a LoveCon. This is cults. I was like, okay, let's, let's call Gia over. Man, when I started watching that, I was like, oh, this is a demonic woman. I was shooketh. I was shocked at who, I mean, two people perpetrated this crime,

[00:08:53] but I feel like the person who was leading it might've got a lighter sentence. So it was very twisty. It was very twisty. I was like, okay. So yeah, I think we, we sometimes, I think Sarah, this, what this really is, is again, very, very poor marketing. Very poor. Very much so. Yeah. Call it something else. Look, I'm with you, Murray. I sent, I sent you the suggestion. I remember I said, oh, I'm not that keen.

[00:09:22] You know, we've seen it before, but maybe let's see. I was surprised. I think once I figured out that it was, it seemed to be a man gathering a coven of women using his enthralled young woman as bait on Tinder to attract baby dykes, basically young, searching women who are vulnerable. We even hear about Sydney. Sydney's sister says when Sydney came out, her family was not very accepting.

[00:09:51] And she said, and neither was I, which I thought, honesty, great. I mean, they didn't throw her out or anything like that, but they didn't really understand. And in order to be in this cult, he's paying for them and he wants them to be witches. In order to be a witch, you have to kill someone to take their soul. It's very salacious. And I really was surprised at how plain the documentary was. It wasn't salacious. I mean, I had problems with the ridiculous reenactments of witches dancing around fires and stuff.

[00:10:20] I could have done without that. But I thought it was for what could have been a very rub your chops and get really excited about sex and queerness and all of this and murder and dismemberment. It actually had a very, I'm going to say plain again, had a very sort of plain way of telling it. And toned down. Yeah, toned down. And I was really pleased about that because in other hands, Paramount Plus, in other hands, it could have been like really distasteful in the telling.

[00:10:49] The crimes are distasteful as it was, but distasteful in the telling. Gia, I'll ask you, you mentioned the talking heads. I'm interested in how you felt these four young women who all had similar stories, realising that they were same-sex attracted, being vulnerable in being away from their families. Or in Sydney's case, you know, the family was close, but they didn't understand her. Sydney dies. The other three women we have very generously talking to us.

[00:11:19] How do you feel that the documentary and the producers dealt with their stories and the attention that they were given and the ability to tell their stories? I think this was my, I mean, if we're going to have a favorite part of a true crime documentary, favorites feels like the wrong word because it's like these are women explaining really awful things that they went through and survived for the women that were talking during the documentary.

[00:11:47] So there are some ways that it feels odd to say that this was my favorite part of the documentary, but I think it was the part that was most impactful for me. And part of that is because recently I, for part of my job, I'm putting together some workshops to teach young women about signs of healthy and a healthy relationship. So this is something that's been at the center of my mind. But I think a big part of it is the fact that they are talking about their own experiences

[00:12:17] and they are not, they're not trying to make it seem as if they are a perfect victim. Like they talk about, they explain there were different times where it's like, yeah, if I, if, if I could go back, I would have done this differently. Or I was upset that this, that my girlfriend was seeing someone else. And I know that shouldn't have been the first thing in my mind, but that was the first thing that came to my mind because I, I think we need to stop.

[00:12:43] We as a collective society, people like to place blame on victims when they do something that may not be the best move. And, you know, like saying, oh, well, you contributed to this in some way. And I like that this documentary still frames it as their stories deserve to be heard. They made some mistakes along the way, but also they are still victims and, and have survived some terrible things that have gone on in their lives both before and after this relationship.

[00:13:12] So I really enjoyed that piece of it, that they were very honest with it, but also just seeing the women talk about everything that led up to this experience, what their lives were like. You sense those patterns of these, there is a reason that these women were vulnerable, whether it was because of a financial insecurity, because they are, they are queer women in places or with families that are not accepting of their queerness.

[00:13:41] They are insecure. They are looking, they can be needy or they're looking for love and they don't necessarily, they're not necessarily reading into some of the red flags that you might read into when you see somebody that you're attracted to and giving you all of this attention. So I, I really did. I'm glad that they framed it the way that they did. I thought that part of it was really well done.

[00:14:06] And I'd be interested to see what those women, if they comment on how the documentary was framed, how they feel about it. But I, I thought it was well done and I thought it was very brave of them all, honestly, to actually talk about their experiences because it got very intimate and sometimes graphic and what, what they endured or what they went through. And they weren't, and this isn't the first time they did it. They also had to do this in a courtroom as well.

[00:14:34] So it was, you know, I can't, I can't overestimate how brave I think these women are for telling this story multiple times. Even with some of the more imperfect things that happened along the way. So I'm really happy to see that be a part of it. And they're really not underselling the fact that these women have been through a lot. There, there is a lot of trauma that comes with being in a abusive relationship, whether

[00:15:02] it is a conventional like two person relationship or not. So I think that you could even see some of those signs throughout the documentary. Sydney is the woman who goes missing and is sadly found dead. And the three other women that we speak to who were involved in some way or another with the perpetrators, Anastasia, Ashley and Katie. Murray, Anastasia fascinated me.

[00:15:26] And I wonder what you felt about her, where she tells her story in the third person. How did that strike you? I was confused at first, but then when they revealed that it was like her. Okay, it makes sense. Anything to cope? Yeah, I thought the women were a good part of it. I will say, I thought they gave us the best background on the cult slash aspect of it because

[00:15:54] it's weird because it's like, was it a cult? Because he said there were witches and he needed to have 13 of them. And it's not even, and I felt like it wasn't even, I don't even know. I feel like, I feel like we didn't hear a lot of the full story because how many women did he get? It felt like he got close to 13. Like, am I correct? That's exactly, that's exactly what I was going to ask you. Each of the women that we speak to says that they are told there are 12 women and they are the 13th.

[00:16:22] So I wondered, was it just the three of them and then Sydney? How long had this been going on? Did you get a good idea of the timeline that we were given as we went through the three episodes? I thought we did because they did do a good job of being like two months before, or like two years before Sydney disappeared. Because we do, I loved how they did it like chronologically of like, they tell us that Sydney is the victim, but I didn't know how it was going to happen.

[00:16:51] So when it unfolded, I was like, oh wow. And then it was like four weeks after Sydney's disappearance. So they would have these labels, the chyrons in the middle of the screen, how many days have passed and elapsed. So I thought that they did do a pretty good job of keeping that all straight. When they are giving us the backgrounds of the other women, they are jumping around a little bit. So this murder happens in 2017, but he's been collecting these women for at least two to three years prior to that, right? So we know that.

[00:17:21] So we're getting like on a story. I think Anna was one of the, it sounded like she was like one of the first. I don't know. Yeah. Right. So we're getting their stories and we're getting what I like to say is what, what was the foundation of the whole trap? It was a honeypot trap. That's exactly what it was. It was a honeypot trap. Bailey was used as the bait on Tinder. It'd be, she'd say her name is Audrey. She would go on dates with these women.

[00:17:50] It felt like she would actually like get into relationships with some of these women. We, we like, we find out later, especially Caitlin is like, I'm trying to tell her let's run away together. It really felt that she was getting into relationships with some of these women and then she was testing the wires. Like, uh, we say it all the time. Sarah says it all the time. Like predators, they, they pick their prey specifically. Right. And that's what it felt like Bailey was doing to these women.

[00:18:15] She would find these women, like Sarah said, women who were not so sure in their sexuality most of the time. Uh, they would basically fall head over heels in love with Bailey. Basically. It sounds like she was, she was a very domineering presence. And then she'd slowly be like, but I'm also, I'm a sugar baby. Oh, you want to meet my sugar daddy? Here's, here's Aubrey. Oh, he just wants to watch in the corner. He would, he just, okay. Let him watch in the corner. And all of a sudden we're not, everybody's having three ways and it's turning rough.

[00:18:43] And, and then the next thing they're saying, you're, there's the cult in a coven. And the girls are like, well, I guess I hate some people. I can kill some people. So it's like that slow walking. And Bailey was to me, the instigator. She was, it sounded like she was having like full on relationships with these women, basically. And I think one of the questions that pops up in this documentary quite often, it was like, why was Sydney killed and not me? You know, like some of the women say it.

[00:19:11] And at first I was like, Sydney probably was, we know that Sydney went on one date with Bailey first. She said it went well and they went on another day. And so I thought that maybe they propositioned her for this, the whole three ways and stuff. And she was just like not feeling it. And so they killed her. But no, as the property unfolds, we learned basically they picked her to, to kill her specifically. There was no trying to groom her into the cult. They picked her specifically as a victim.

[00:19:41] So it really did not happen. Like I thought it was going to happen. Yeah. And she looked exactly like Anastasia. That was one of the things that was. Anastasia, Sydney, Caitlin and all the old pictures. Yeah. Ashley. Blondes. Blondes. All blondes. Gia, Murray and I are on record as we do not like to hear from the perpetrator.

[00:20:04] A lot of the third episode is Aubrey Trail in custody, playing with the police. I mean, they're aware that he, of all the tricks and psychology that he's using. I was almost okay with that because he wasn't talking directly to the producers, although he does do so at the end. Too much? Not enough? Revealing? Boring? How did you find that section when we move away from the women and their story and have this large concentration on Aubrey Trail?

[00:20:33] I agree with both of you that I am not a huge fan of hearing from the perpetrator myself. I think part of it is if you're going to do it, there should be a point to it. Like it shouldn't just be because you can. And I think they, even though I hated hearing from him, I think showing the tapes of that interview does give a lot of context to what the investigation was like, what the end

[00:21:03] result was and why. So I do think it added something to this documentary. So I guess if you're going to do it, you should be able to explain why you're doing it other than, well, why wouldn't we want to hear from the perpetrator? Everyone wants to, wants to hear from the evil person that did it, that type of thing. But it almost, it feels very sensationalized. I think sometimes when we do a lot of true crime stuff, there should be like a code of

[00:21:32] ethics with it as well. So I feel like most of the time I'm, I'm in the same camp as you two. Yeah. I mean, it was interesting. It went on too long. I thought what, for me, what was interesting was you saw how he operated. So he's saying to the police, you will drop the charges against Bailey. Just making statements. The thing that, that men and some women do, which is they put their hands behind their head and they expose the armpits.

[00:21:59] It's a very domineering position to be in as he slouches in his chair. Murray, too much, not enough. Didn't want him interested. I actually, I was actually fine with it. I agree. I agree with Gia. I thought it was very important to actually see the, because to me, confession tapes and stuff like that, those interrogations, if done right, they don't, they don't irk me. Agreed. Yeah.

[00:22:24] I really did think that this was important because I, again, as I'm watching this documentary, I'm watching these tapes. And to me, it really felt like, you know, the property that we, I think we did a mini on a welcome to paradise. Remember the one where the guy who was like, it feels like welcome to paradise. The one where we talked about with the big women, this guy was obsessed with big women. He had them in his house. It was like a semi-cult, not semi-cult.

[00:22:53] The only difference is nobody was murdered. A woman did complete suicide because of her treatment at that house. But this is what it felt like because this guy, this guy watching these interrogations, he, you could see, he feels that he was on top. He feels like he was a domineering force, but I'm sorry. I was talking. Sing it. I was kind of like, Bailey really twisted this mofo up.

[00:23:19] She, I really think she manipulated him to think that he was in the dominant position to the point where he was saying he was, he's willing to, he, he's doing it. He's taking the rap for her. He said Bailey had nothing to do with it. He tries cutting his neck in court with the razor blade. As he's saying, Bailey, Bailey had nothing to do with it. Bailey had nothing to do with it and starts cutting his neck with a razor blade. He's the one who's on death row, right? All of that. But he's still like, yes, I had these covenant women.

[00:23:47] Then when we talked to him contemporaneously in the jail cell, which I thought was just enough. Just enough. It was like one call. It was one call, just a few minutes. And then he says, no, Bailey was the one who, who did all of this. She, you know, it was at her behest. I'm like, oh, this is literally what happens when, mostly when women get away from their cult leaders. Guys, Bailey was the cult leader. She is the devil we are swiping right on. And that blew me away. Yes, I love that.

[00:24:16] But Bailey wanted to kill everybody. So she also wanted to kill Katie, Anna and Ashley. But in fact, they were caught because of who the family was of Sydney. They thought Sydney was a vulnerable, alone, lonely, seeking young woman. And they didn't realize that even though the family was having, was not immediately embracing her sexuality. They were absolutely behind her.

[00:24:45] Also who the family was, I think socioeconomically. So they immediately reported her missing, which they thought wouldn't happen. And they themselves went out and got information. One of her friends signed up for Tinder. I was just about to say, it was her friends. Yes, the friends rallied around. It was her friends, for real. So Bailey and Aubrey basically had to go on the run and were not able to kill the other three women. But I'm like you, Murray.

[00:25:12] I was thinking, oh, yes, this older man, this 51-year-old man with the money, he's in charge. The women are frightened of him. And they talk about Bailey being different when she's with him as when she's not. And slowly it dawns, no, this mid-20s woman is the one. Gia, when we saw Bailey in court, what were your thoughts about her? We don't hear her, but we certainly see her. Yeah, I feel like I came to the same realization as we are learning more about the court process, I guess.

[00:25:41] So we spent a lot of time on Aubrey and his psyche. They tell her, first of all, I didn't find him charismatic at all in his interview tape. So I don't know what men think. I don't know if it's a man thing. He's very charismatic. You can totally tell. No, he sounds like an asshole. But I digress. But he sounds like a child. None of the women describe him as charismatic, which is all we need to know. Yeah. So I don't get it. But all right. I digress from that.

[00:26:09] But I did find it interesting. We spent a lot of time on him. And I feel like the documentary almost wants us to realize late that, well, he is obviously not a good person. It is part of a very horrific crime. That it is like the devil in question. I agree. Is Bailey.

[00:26:31] And the person that she wanted to become a prolific female serial killer is the reason she even hatched up this plan. And I think the interest in witchcraft from him and from Audrey. And I think that stuff is true. I think he's telling the truth when he says that. Especially when he's talking about his upbringing and things like that. So that makes sense.

[00:26:57] But I think the end of the day, this is happening because Bailey wants to kill somebody so that she can become a prolific killer. She wants fame. She wants to be a dangerous person. And it hits you almost too late as you're like watching towards the end of the documentary. And their mistake is literally the fact that people cared about this girl. Yeah. Because they considered killing all three of those girls.

[00:27:27] But they were like, we've been seen with them. The town kind of knows them. And they were like, okay, let's just pick somebody else. And for that to be their undoing is, I mean, it's horrendous that it took Sydney's life. But the courage of her friend, Brooklyn, who we said was like a dog with a bone. She got on Tinder. She started swiping right to find that devil. Yeah. And then I think one of her guy friends was on here and they were talking.

[00:27:57] They got her family involved because she was alone in Lincoln because she moved to Lincoln, Nebraska from her smaller city in Nebraska. She was alone. She did say she felt lonely, but she still had people. You know, they just didn't. She had a lot of people. They didn't know it. She had a lot of people. Yes. And the fact that she did could have probably stopped some would-be serial killers. Yes. More than likely. Because Bailey wanted to kill those other three women and presumably on and on.

[00:28:26] So both of them were charged with first degree murder. They were given separate trials. They were both found guilty of first degree murder. He is sentenced to death and is on death row, as we said. Murray, why did she get life? Was it because she cried? We heard Bailey's plea at her sentencing hearing and she basically also throws in the fact that she had a kid, which I was like, wait, did the documentary tell us she had a kid?

[00:28:53] Because we didn't hear about this kid this whole time. Right at the end. I was like, she's working still. And she apologizes to the victim family again. Boo-hoo. I don't believe you. But maybe that is why she gets life instead of death. And there may still be a distaste to put women on death row. If you're going to have the death sentence, everybody, it's got to be everybody that gets there or nobody, which would be my preference. Right. Right.

[00:29:22] So I looked at the clips from her trial and I was just like, this is scary, man. And they point out how she's leaning forward to kind of look the witnesses in their faces. One of the witnesses testifies that Bailey is in the middle of like choking her or something. And she's thinking she's about to die. Yes. Katie testifies like she thinks she's about to die.

[00:29:49] And Aubrey was like, tell her about torture and stuff. So she'll, if she comes, then she'll, being crass. If she comes, she won't kill you. And so Katie says she reached down real deep to her like 10th grade history and thought of like Thurac or something. Or people being skinned and medieval. Thought of the medieval torture she learned in history class. Yes. And in court, they were all very polite.

[00:30:15] They'd say she got off and then the prosecutor's saying, so when you say she got off, my God, you guys. It was so funny to me because I was like that, even that doesn't make sense because she got off. She got off or did she get off of you? Yeah. Yes. So Gia, how many magnifying glasses are you going to rate swipe right on the devil out of a possible five? Oh, you know, it's hard because I think the last one we did was the perfect neighbor, which got an Oscar nomination.

[00:30:45] So it's hard. And that I definitely gave five magnifying glasses. I don't think, unfortunately now my standard is, you guys shouldn't have brought me back after that because now my standard is very high. It's a rating, not a ranking. I know. I would say like a, I would say like a four. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it as much as you can enjoy something like this. And I liked the different perspectives that we got.

[00:31:11] There are some things I didn't, I wasn't necessarily a huge fan of in the documentary, like how they explain certain things. But I still overall enjoyed it. Okay. And Mari, how many magnifying glasses will you give this docuseries? I'm sorry. All I've been thinking of, it's a rating, not a ranking. It's such a good, we got to put that on a t-shirt or a sticker set or something. Stickers. Let us know if you want stickers. That would be fun. You guys should do a like five magnifying glass like sticker too.

[00:31:41] Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Yes. Just like Gia. If you have ideas, you know where to find us. You can send your emails to crimescenepod at gmail.com for ideas about sticker sets and stuff like that. And maybe we have to have, we have to come up with more stuff to put on some stickers. We got to put, we're still workshopping, but the scenesters, right? That seems to be equal, equal number of votes with the scene team. So get your votes in. Okay. Yeah.

[00:32:11] So get your votes in either the scene team or the scenesters. Once we get that settled, we'll make a, we'll make a sticker book or something. That sounds fun. But anyways, I agree with Gia. It, I thought it was really good. I thought it was really well made. Again, was it the best thing I've seen this year? No, but it was very like it, it flew by. It flew by. I went, guys, when I tell you, I went into this thinking it was one thing and it just completely kept shocking me and shocking me and shocking me.

[00:32:40] I was like, okay, okay. So I also will give it a four. Four. That's what, that's what I'm feeling. It's one of those things like, I don't necessarily know why I'm picking a magnifying glass. It's not scientific. Yeah. The magnifying glasses are not scientific. It's all vibes. They're not, but it feels, yeah, that's the vibe. It has to be a four. But I highly suggest it. How about you, Sarah? How many magnifying glasses are you going to rate swipe right on the devil?

[00:33:06] If I predicted before I watched it, what my rating would be, probably be like a two and a half, three. It is definitely a four. It's really well made. I'm amazed. These three episodes are one hour each. And they do fly by, as you said. They didn't like it. Very, very engaging. And I like the way the story's told. I love that the three women in particular are given space and time to tell their stories, that we also see them in court.

[00:33:32] And I just wrote, they are so brave. And just after that, Mackenzie's Sydney sister said, these women were so brave. And I thought, I said that, Mackenzie. So I think it had a lot to recommend it. It's a definite recommend from me. It's quite a hard sit, but it's worth telling, I think. So yeah, four magnifying glasses from me. I think what it is, I don't know if that should have been the title, right?

[00:34:00] I, the swipe right with the devil and then the whole, the phone in the red and his face is kind of centered. It makes sense at the end. Yeah. You know? I thought it was a bad title till the last five minutes. And I thought, now it's coming together. You told us all along, right? You told us all along. Yeah. And now, Murray has our ghost story for today. Yes. So for the mini, we're talking about the Pet Sematary Murders, colon, a ghost story.

[00:34:30] What begins as an investigation into one woman's murder becomes an exploration of generations of violence, murder, and questionable death. And disturbing secrets surrounding a particular property. Gia, we're really excited to have you on for this one too. Talk about two properties that I was like, okay. Like I was going into them. I was like, all right. And then just completely getting my mind blown and blown and blown. What are your thoughts? Curveballs swipe right through us.

[00:35:00] Where I was, I, and I agreed. It was a very fast watch. Like it, it did, it was three hour long episodes, but it didn't feel like it. For every curveball that I, that was thrown at us for swipe right, double that for Pet Sematary Murders. I would, first of all, side note, immediate one. I knew I needed to say it on the pod. I loved the accents. The Creole accents are incredible.

[00:35:29] I, I love it. I felt very comforted during that time, even as we're talking about very gruesome things. But it was great. I loved the accents. I would say, I really liked this. And it, it took me in a very different direction than what I was expecting. But I feel like I got so much more out of it than I thought I was going to. I was not expecting this generational trauma tale. Even ending it with, we think we know what happened, but actually we probably don't.

[00:35:58] And it might actually be this thing all along that we didn't talk about for a majority of the three episodes we have you for. So very intriguing. Not like a lot of documentaries that I have seen in the past like this, but I really enjoyed it. Sarah, how about you? What were your overall thoughts about the Pet Sematary Murders? Well, I have to say, this is one of the best double features we've ever put together. Yeah. Yeah. And like you, like neither of them particularly appealed. Like we get very excited about some things.

[00:36:28] Other things we think, oh, it's an important topic. Other times we go, Netflix, everyone will be watching it. So let's do it. And these were sort of very mid, okay, we can. And they both completely sucked me in, in the best possible way. And I think they're both really good. However, very, very different in tone. The tone is crazy. The tone is like. The subject is crazy. My God. I didn't know the case. I'm not surprised I didn't know the case because it feels like a very local case.

[00:36:56] But I thought we went from the disappearance of a woman to her body turning up. And then we were in Katrina. And then we were back in the 1870s with the slaughter of previously enslaved people in this area. And then we were forward with ghosts coming and telling people that they had to tell the truth. I believe those people thought ghosts were telling them to tell the truth. It's called a conscience, everybody. Truth will out. And I think if I may be political for a moment, I think there's a truth serum era going on at the moment.

[00:37:26] All that stuff is going to come to light. And so I think it's very interesting that the people who had held very dark secrets are visited by ghosts, prompting them to go to law enforcement and tell what they know. And I think that's very powerful. So I think Pet Sematary was a very powerful document. I don't believe that certain places hold badness, but it was amazing how many murders, slaughters

[00:37:56] and suicides happened on this one patch of ground. I really, really liked it. I can't say enough about how much I liked it. How about you, Mari? I will say I turned it on and I was like, oh, this is vintage. Something about it just felt so old school true crime documentary. Like it felt so vintage. It felt so right up there with the thin blue lines to me. Like it just something about it.

[00:38:24] It was the presence of the people, the presence of the story. Again, those Creole accents, I'm pretty sure really, really helped in that. And as they're slowly talking about the disappearance of this woman, this older woman, I'm sitting here like, huh? At first I'm like, okay, okay. Well, I like this. I don't know. It's very straight to the point. And then we're talking about a massacre of freed black people who are trying to vote

[00:38:50] and change, you know, change their circumstance, who are trying to get along in the Jim Crow era South and that they are killed by the judge on this land that this land is now named after. It was, it was so good. The first like 30 minutes, well, each episode was about 45 minutes ish. Right. So the, the first half of each episode would be like a portion of the murder. It'd be like, okay, Dorothy went missing. They found her body floating in the river about the murder.

[00:39:20] And then somehow I don't even know how they did it. They would blend it with history in a way that now we're talking about history and everybody, if you know me, I love me some history. I hate American history, but I'm a big history buff. And so the first formerly enslaved massacre, I was like, oh wow. And then they're like, wait up. There's more episode two. We then find out, oh yeah, a whole bunch of indigenous people were also used and abused

[00:39:49] and died on this land and then were buried and interred on this land. And now it, it was so funny. I don't know if funny is the word, but it was like, uh, one of the indigenous talking heads was like, everybody talks about Indian burial grounds, cursed Indian burial grounds. He was like, who do you think cursed it? It's not us. It's the people who put the, who do the horrible things to those people that curse it. And I was like, oh my God, this is legit.

[00:40:19] Like when they said the Pet Sematary murders, I, I was, I really thought that they were, they were fishing because we, again, we get all of these fishing style titles. You think it's one thing and it's not. Literally, this is all happening on an actual Pet Sematary. It was to the point where by the end of it, I was like, did Stephen King hear? He had to have heard this story and then made this story. Sometimes dead is better. Yeah, it had to be.

[00:40:46] They said before they heard, the only way they heard about this case was from the movie. So I feel like there has to be some direct inspiration from there. This is Louisiana Gothic. This is Southern Gothic. Yes. In its absolute finest, we have in the first two episodes, there's a house with wafting curtains that we look at. Come to find out in Katrina, it got completely destroyed.

[00:41:12] We have a visual artist who goes and takes us through the place where the house was, the place where the graves were with the gravestones and the funerary statues. And he's lifting up vines and he's pushing aside greenery. And we see a brick. We see the new post of the porch. It's like, what is going on? It's amazing. Going through all the stuff Mario was talking about. We didn't even get to Hurricane Katrina yet. There was so much going on in this movie or in this documentary.

[00:41:41] And the files, the man that's doing the cold case, but all the files were destroyed in Katrina. So this is never, ever going to be solved. But wait, the state police have a file. Because I was thinking, well, where did you get all those photographs? If the file was destroyed. I love the twists and turns, Murray. Yeah. And like you guys said, so Katrina comes through and they say Katrina basically happens on top of this land.

[00:42:07] They say that the main center of Katrina goes over specifically this land. They show us archival Katrina footage. Everything's up to the houses. We're talking to, I think it was one of the sheriff deputies. Some of the talking heads, they completely lost everything into Katrina. You know, I'm a spiritual person. We talked about this, Sarah famously, we got to find a way to put that into it. Yeah. We got to find a way to put that into it. Atheist versus spiritual. And I was literally. With spiritual.

[00:42:37] I don't want to be versus. Exactly. Even after this, I was like, I don't know, man. I kind of believe that this land is cursed. Because how does Katrina pass right over this? They said it whipped up everything. When we get, again, one of the deputies going back in real time, everything is overgrown. Again, the houses are gone. But he's finding some of the tombstones from the animals. I was like Katrina, formerly enslaved massacre.

[00:43:07] Indigenous people massacre. They drove the indigenous people out of it. Right. And then. They also infected them with blankets and things like that. So. Yes. And there, it was like, they were kind of buried on the land. It was just like history after history. Wait. And guess what? What else happens, Gia? We find out that Dorothy herself might have eliminated two of her husbands. Two of her five husbands. At least. And then we learn, at the very end of the, of the, all three episodes,

[00:43:37] it also might not have been her. Who killed the husbands? Yes. She killed the husbands. She killed the husbands. Who did they say? No. Her mom. Well, no. Grace? Her mom killed her ex-husband lover's wife. Yes. Yes. There was a lot. And they were all drug addicts. I mean, it's, it's the ultimate sampler box. It was. As I say, it's Southern Gothic to the absolute nth degree.

[00:44:03] And Maria, how did they tell such a complex story so that we followed it? I don't, I, exactly right. It was, it's very Midnight in the Garden of Good and Evil. Like, exactly that. Because I keep forgetting that that's an actual true story. And, and not the very good fiction that it is, nonfiction book that it's based on. When I tell you, they weaved so much history, so much town lore into this. It was fantastic.

[00:44:32] And again, it's the reason why HBO Max really knows how to pick their Sunday night. It's the reason why we wait three weeks to cover their properties. And, and, and how, why we don't mind a weekly drop for those because they do it in such a way. When I, when I finished that first episode, my jaw dropped. I was like, man, I got to wait for the second episode. It was just, it's just so good. Like I, dear listeners, we, again, we, we summed it up, but go and watch it.

[00:45:02] It's still like, it is still mind blowing. All of the stuff that happens in and around on this property. And even at the end, they were like, oh yeah, there's somebody interested in this property. And she, she passed away due to a murder suicide. Huh? Like even to this day still, everybody go away from it. Get away from it. Like maybe. The guy at the end that was like, I don't believe in curses, but if they are real, then this, this place is definitely up for discussion.

[00:45:31] It's like, even the skeptic. Yeah. I love the older police officer who was sent as a young, fresh police officer to the shooting death of one of her husbands. He's on the lawn, twisted up. And they said, go there, say it's a suicide and get out. Yeah. He said, and I did. Yeah. Completed suicide by shooting himself twice in the back. Suicide and get out of there. Like it.

[00:45:57] I will say the speaking of which though, if you are a little squeamish, the, the crime scene photos are not edited at all and they come at you quick. They are. So yeah. So be, be mindful of that. Uh, yeah, they, we see the husbands dead in all their glory for sure. For sure. So just be, be mindful of that. Gia, how many magnifying glasses are you going to rate the pet cemetery murders out of a possible five?

[00:46:25] I'll do a 4.5 for this one. This has had a special oomph to it that I think might, I don't want to say is missing from, from the swipe right documentary because I did really like that one too. But I think that the history blend of it also was really fascinating to me. And I think that's like the edge that I get for it.

[00:46:48] Like that has the edge for me is that there was so much folded into it historical wise, um, with this one that you just can't do with this other documentary because it's a fairly recent case. Not as much historic background is needed to explain that story. So I would say, yeah, like a 4.5. I really liked it. And Sarah, how about you? How many magnifying glasses will you give this docuseries out of a possible five?

[00:47:16] Well, again, I'm wondering why I'm not giving it five. I'm going to give it 4.75. Uh, I think there were a couple of moments where the documentarians dragged the heels and did a bit of bait and switch that we didn't need because there was so much in it. Um, but I am going to thoroughly recommend it. I'm going to give it 4.75 nearly there. How about you, Murray? I'm going to give it 4.5 just because I'm going to give it 4.5. Cause I like, I like round numbers. Because it is, it is nearly perfect.

[00:47:44] I will say though, I could see how people could turn it on initially. And if you don't get through that first like 10 minutes, you might quit on it. Yeah. So, yes. Yeah. Yeah. So that, that I'll bring it down for that. But honestly, once it gets going, you're like, what else? That's what it feels like. It's just like, what else?

[00:48:08] It's certainly in contention for best talking head of the year with Patricia Newman and her eyelashes. Mm. Mm. The friend. That was Dorothy's friend, right? Yeah. Dorothy's friend. I loved her. I loved her. I also, I also really like the defense attorney. Yes. For Notier's defense attorney. Again, this is mini spoilers. Like, I don't want to spoil it cause go watch it.

[00:48:34] Um, but like the fact that he said they, they do come to a plea, a plea deal. And when he says, I'd rather have numbers than letters, give me an L, give me an I, give me an F, give me an E. I was like, Oh my God, this man is a lawyer. He is a good old Southern liar that really got his client off. And I was like, when he, that was so funny to me. That was the funniest thing to me when he got the plea deal and he just said, numbers is better than letters.

[00:49:03] And it took me a minute to be like letters. And then he spells it out for you. And I was like, that is absolutely hilarious. Yeah. And it's like, of course, this is how all of this ends. Of course. Yeah. It's 10 years, 10 years. Also, I have to say when they said that Notier was now 58, I wrote 58 and about 25 question marks cause he looks 158. Hard living. They were like, which is why they were okay with giving him 10 years. 10 years. They were like, he's going to die. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:49:33] They don't think he's going to, going to live it out. So yeah, it was a man. It was, I thought it was really good. It's so good. Where once, once they do catch Dorothy's killers, that is the least of my worries at this point. It's not the mystery that you think you're watching. It's so good. Yeah. Yeah. Very good. So what else is good? Gia, what do you have to recommend to our listeners?

[00:49:57] If you haven't, this is, this is a very unserious recommendation, but if you want a like comedy court, enjoyable viewing, if you have not been to the movie theater recently, I would recommend Coyote versus Acme because that was a very fun one. If you love the Looney Tunes, which I do, I highly recommend it. Great message into it. I cannot believe this movie was almost shelved and I never got to see it.

[00:50:23] Warner Brothers and HBO, you are on my list for that. But such a good movie. I loved it. It was a really fun courtroom. It's not even a drama, but they have its little parts in there. But if you do yourself a favor and go see it after seeing it, I watched Space Jam, Space Jam 2. I went back and watched all my favorite Looney Tunes stuff as a kid. Fantastic. Great recommendation. And how about you, Mari? What do you have to recommend today?

[00:50:49] Well, I'm headed back down to the pank, y'all. So if y'all don't know, the third season of Pea Valley is coming in December. And to get ready for the third season of Pea Valley, because it's been literally what four years in between season two and season three. I have been re-watching season one and season two of Pea Valley because me, Chappelle, and

[00:51:13] baby boy Bryce will be covering season three of Pea Valley on Recap Kickback and Purple Pants Podcast Crossover. So because of that, that's all I've been watching. I absolutely love Pea Valley. Like just revisiting this show. The fact that we're only going to get three seasons is gutting to me. But this show was so good. And it's one of those shows that I know for a fact that I'm probably just going to be re-watching for the rest of my entire life.

[00:51:42] I guess if you don't know what Pea Valley is, it follows a strip club owned by the notorious Uncle Clifford and his gaggle of strippers down in Chocolisa, Mississippi. And down in what is called Pea Valley, also known as Pussy Valley. And it is such a real raw show. It's on stars. And it's just so incredibly good. A very underrated black show that, of course, will not get its full dues. But while it's here, we're going to celebrate it.

[00:52:12] Other than that, I've been reading a lot of historical fiction lately. One of my favorite historical fiction authors, Philippa Gregory, just dropped her newest book, Royal Witch. Yes, it follows Eleanor Cobham, the former Duchess of Bedford in the early 1400s. So it's kind of as somebody who, again, historian here, mostly English history.

[00:52:37] I can basically tell you the line of succession from William the Conqueror to the current line. But I will say that a blind spot for me has been after between Henry V and Henry VI. There's just a blind spot there because there's not a lot of media about it. Not called the Dark Ages for nothing.

[00:52:58] Yeah, we don't go from the most dominant king in Henry V, who is also known in the Shakespeare play, to what is essentially a mad king, Henry VI and the War of the Roses, without there being some kind of dullness in there. But Philippa Gregory does a great job of finding a heroine in that period and making us watch history through their eyes.

[00:53:26] So it's a great, it's been a great read. Now I got to go back and reread her War of the Roses stuff as soon as I'm done with this. So I can just firmly link the two in there. And I've just been having fun with that. I'm the type of person when I'm reading stuff, like one minute, I will just be reading mystery thriller books. The ones that I'm pretty sure I recommended a few weeks ago. To then now I'm reading historical fiction.

[00:53:51] And then I'm pretty sure in a few days I'm also reading some sort of urban fiction smut. So it's just like, you know, duality of man. Yeah, exactly. So that's what I'm doing right now. Right now it's historical fiction. What about you, Sarah? Well, I adore Maria Bamford. She's an American comedian and actress. Absolutely adore her. Every single thing she does, every word out of her mouth, adore.

[00:54:18] So Judd Apatow has made a documentary about her and it's called Paralysed by Hope. It just dropped last week on Netflix and I cannot recommend it enough. She's a very particular person. If you're not into it in the first five minutes, that's what it is for the entire length of the time. So if you're not into her, then turn it off.

[00:54:38] But come at me, Maria Bamford fans, and let's talk about her and how brilliant she is and how wonderful this documentary is on Netflix. Also, I just went to the cinema. I saw Prime Time. It's about Chris Hansen and the Dateline show to Catch a Predator. Mari and I covered the documentary Predators in December last year. We both gave that. Oh, actually, I'm going to ask Mari.

[00:55:02] Guess how many magnifying glasses you gave Predators in December last year? Was it 3.5? It was zero. And so... We gave it zero? Yeah, we both gave it zero. I was shocked! I remember it not being that great. I went back and looked and I thought, zero? So I guess we knew what we were talking about at the time. This, however, this movie, Prime Time, it's wonderful. Robert Pattinson plays Chris Hansen. The whole cast is amazing.

[00:55:31] It's very impressionistic. It's straightforward in terms of events, but the way it's filmed and the sound design and the aspect ratio is all super interesting. So I am going to recommend Prime Time. Who was our guest on that? No one. It was just us. Wow. And we... Okay. I'll link it in the show notes. People might like to listen. I might like to listen, actually. I know.

[00:55:57] I knew we didn't like it, but I thought zero without Mark Blankenship to corrupt us. Right. Yeah, I got to go re-listen to myself now. We'd love it if you would subscribe to the show at CrimeScenePod.com or search Crime Scene. That's S-E-E-N, of course, wherever you get your podcasts. You can follow us everywhere at Crime Scene Pod.

[00:56:18] You can support us at BuyMeACoffee.com slash Crime Scene Pod or sling us a couple of bucks like Anna did or join our monthly membership like Jeremy did. Members receive episodes early and ad-free as well as other exclusive bonus content. In the supporters feed right now and for the next few weeks, Katie from A Date With Dateline joins me for episode-by-episode coverage of Ludwig.

[00:56:42] It's a scripted show from the BBC starring David Mitchell as a renowned puzzle setter who must impersonate his twin brother, a police detective. Fantastic season. And we're having lots of fun over there and lots of interaction with our members and supporters coming over from A Date With Dateline. So check it out. You can also support us by buying our merch. Well, look at that. Look again. Go to my store, maricraftstomuch.bigcartel.com. Again, like we talked about earlier. Link to the store will be in the show notes.

[00:57:12] You can get Crime Scene Tumblers and guys, remember, T-shirts. We have T-shirts on sale. We're having a pre-sale for Crime Scene T-shirts. If you buy a T-shirt, we're taking orders until November 21st. If you buy a T-shirt by then, it'll be guaranteed to get to you by Christmas. We have different colors, different sizes. So please, please, please go check out our T-shirt merch over on my website. Of course, I also have other book-themed Tumblers.

[00:57:40] I got a lot of really good new book decals too, like really gorgeous ones. So go check me out. I can also do custom cups. But also, free is good. Free. Free. You can support us free by rating and reviewing Crime Scene so that others can find us. Five stars only. Five stars. Your support makes a huge difference. So Gia, thank you so much for joining us for this one.

[00:58:06] We couldn't think of anyone better for this amazing, spooky double feature. What have you got going on? Where can the people find you? Oh, goodness. Other than here, you can find me on social media, at Classically Gia on Twitter, Instagram, TikTok, Blue Sky. For all of my reality TV shenanigans, I'm also on Substack under BetOnBlack. Please give it a follow. I'll be posting some end of the year stuff soon, which I'm really excited about.

[00:58:34] It's been a whirlwind of a year for reality TV. And I actually just recently, well, just a few hours ago, finished our recap of our most recent episodes of Abbott Elementary with Chappelle, which was a very fun time. So definitely check that out. Same thing. Give us five stars. Five stars. And Survivor 51 is back. And I am recapping Survivor 51 on Inside Survivor with Christine Palin. Awesome.

[00:59:03] Amari, how about you? I know that people want to find you. Tell them where. You can find me over on Blue Sky at Maritalks2much. That's two likely number two. Of course, like I said, over on Recap Kickback, me and Chappelle finished our coverage of The Drop, A Snowfall Saga. All eight episodes, they're done, dusted in the can. We had so much fun. Make sure you go check that out as you watch The Drop. But also, again, make sure you're subscribed to Recap Kickback. Go to RecapKickback.com, wherever you get your podcast.

[00:59:31] Or even better, go to YouTube.com slash at Recap Kickback. Because Pea Valley is coming up. Like Gia said, she's over there with Abbott Elementary. Chappelle and Chantel are still revisiting the Flavor of Love universe. They're at I Love New York season two. Chantel has never seen. Exactly. Chantel has never seen the Flavor of Love universe. So she's experiencing it for the first time with her Sherpa, her guide, Chappelle.

[01:00:00] And finally, me and Matt Scott, we saw that, again, one of my favorite drag queens, Bob the Drag Queen, dropped a video about him talking wrestling. So me and Matt decided we were going to drop a video watching his video. So we react to Bob the Drag Queen talking about wrestling. It is available over on Recap Kickback as well. So you can check that out. The wrestling kickback came, we dragged ourselves out of retirement.

[01:00:26] We're not retired, but we dragged ourselves out back to our podcast mics to talk about Bob the Drag Queen. I mean, of course, of course we would. Downloading that episode now for my drive to Boston tomorrow. Thank you. Please. What about you, Sarah? Where can the people find you? Well, the people can find me on Blue Sky at Sarah Carradine if that's something that they'd like to do. Also over on Babes on the Conclave, Annabelle Fidler and I talk about non-English speaking traders seasons.

[01:00:53] I know I promised you Denmark, civilian too. We've had to push that back because of things, life, waves hand around generally. But you can listen to older episodes of Hungary, Turkey and others. And Denmark is coming in December in time for holiday season. Mari, what are we watching next week? Well, next week listeners will need to watch our social media to find out what we're covering.

[01:01:19] However, in the next few weeks, we will be covering You Can See Everything. If you know this podcast's history with Elizabeth Holmes, then you know that I gotta go see this movie and I gotta trash this lady. I'm excited to see it. Again, this could be totally different from her medical malpractice, as I call it, that she tried to commit specifically on my job. So I'm very excited. You can expect that coverage in about two weeks or so.

[01:01:49] It'll be a very inspiring step forward. Okay. You did a Southern accent before. You did a Southern accent. Because I can. I will do a, don't tempt me. I'll do a whole podcast in a Southern accent. And don't forget to let us know your suggestions for what our listeners should be called. Yes, you. There's a poll on our Buy Me A Coffee page. Please let us know what you should be called. We'd love for you to weigh in.

[01:02:17] Thanks to Gia Worthy for joining us. Will from America for the theme music. And all the good witches, healthful spirits and the ancestors who protect us. Until next time. Case closed. Case closed.