My Killer Father: The Green Hollow Murders | Crime Seen episode 202

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[00:01:26] Oibos – Last week we watched The Crash with Nicole Horn. Big reaction to that. Lots of you messaging us with your thoughts. And a couple of friends of the pod sent us their thoughts via SpeakPipe. Remember, listeners, you're welcome to do that at any time. Anything that you want to say, pop it onto a SpeakPipe. So let's first hear from Kirsten McInnes. She's from our sister podcast, Miss Magnets. Let's listen to what she has to say.

[00:01:53] Hi Sarah and Mari. It's Kirsten. I just wanted to leave you a little voicemail about The Crash because I truly have not been able to stop thinking about it since watching the documentary. And yes, I do have several pieces of homework from Mari to still watch regarding this case because obviously the documentary didn't really show everything.

[00:02:15] But I just can't get over like what an insane way it is to kill people to drive straight into a wall. Like, I think she obviously thought either none of them would die or that all of them would die. And I can't decide if I think it's premeditated murder or just someone not thinking things through because Mari did make a very compelling case for that.

[00:02:41] But my main issue is her parents. Like, what do you mean your underage child is living with her boyfriend while she's still in high school? I think we haven't spent enough time questioning them. Anyway, love you guys. Bye. Thanks so much, Kirsten. We love you too. So listeners go and follow Kirsten and Sasha Joseph on The Mess Magnets for all your mess every week.

[00:03:09] And now we're going to hear from a friend of the show, Kimberly from A Date with Dateline. Hi, this is Kimberly from A Date with Dateline. I loved The Crash. I thought it was so fascinating. I love all the parodies that are coming out now. I love when all of true crime society sort of comes together and are obsessed with the same thing at the same time. I thought it was really well done.

[00:03:36] I thought there was a lot of shade thrown at Mackenzie's parents who did not seem to realize they were being shaded. I really enjoyed that. I thought it was a lot of sympathy for the two victims in the case. And I thought it reminded me so much of this Dateline case from a long, long time ago called Crossing the Line.

[00:04:01] And so we just covered that on our show because there are a lot of parallels between the two cases. Also, being a teenager sucks. And maybe none of us should be allowed to be in society until our frontal lobes are developed. And that's sort of what I thought. I give it five magnifying glasses. I thought it was great.

[00:04:26] And now I'm going to go and devour all the supplemental materials on the case. Oh, thanks so much, Kimberly. Great to hear from you. Everybody go and check out the episode from A Date with Dateline called Crossing the Line. We will link that in the show notes. This week we watched My Killer Father, The Green Hollow Murders.

[00:04:49] And returning for her eighth go-round, she recently joined us to discuss documentaries on Karen Reed and Andrea Yates. We had to collect the set. It's Kimberly's partner in crime. Yes, it's Katie from A Date with Dateline. Katie! Burp, burp, burp, burp. Thank you for having me back. Let's talk about killer dads. Yes. Exactly. Exactly.

[00:05:17] Well, we've been instructed, Murray, so let's get to the crime. Let's go. Donald Studi was an IO man accused by his daughter Lucy of being a prolific serial killer. He is alleged to have killed dozens of women over a 30-year period. Lucy alleges that the majority of the killings took place in the 70s and 80s.

[00:05:37] She claims her father murdered between 50 and 70 women, mostly transients and sex workers, picked up in Omaha, Nebraska, and that he buried them on his property in Fremont County, Iowa. Although Lucy reported her father to authorities and others for over 40 years, no investigations were conducted while he was alive. He died in 2013.

[00:06:04] The FBI, Iowa Division of Criminal Investigation and Local Sheriff's Department conducted searches of the property in 2022, but spoiler alert, no human remains were found. Lucy also believes that Donald killed her mother, also called Lucy, and her stepmother, Charlotte, both of whom were said to have died by suicide. She also suspects him of killing his last girlfriend-slash-wife, Anna.

[00:06:32] This documentary crew followed a three-year investigation into the allegations and including paying for the exhumation of Charlotte and for the digging at the property. Katie, what are your overall thoughts on this three-part docuseries? I really thought they were going to find something. I really thought they were going to support a spoiler alert. Yes. I really did. And I was watching that time code like a hawk in episode three.

[00:07:02] That's what I... um Oh, you know, this was a confusing one. Mm-hmm. On a lot of levels, but... Whoa. I... Overall, I was intrigued and I was hooked. So if they wanted you to follow the story, I did it. Did some things feel a little bit forced? Absolutely.

[00:07:28] There was definitely some forced drama and confrontation that made me a little grumpy and I thought was unnecessary. But, uh... What do you guys think? Please tell me. Please tell me. So I think we need to do like a moratorium on Paramount Plus documentaries there. Agreed. Because... Agreed. We've given them chance after chance after chance. Chance after chance. Too many chances. I am done.

[00:07:59] I am done. Um... This was... Ugh. Yuck. Like, what are we doing here? Like, why is it three episodes? Why did we get three episodes of my dad may be a serial killer for it to fizzle off and it'd be like, Oh, no, we didn't find any bodies. Okay, we're going, bye. Like, that's what it felt like. The bodies are there, Murray. The bodies are there. They just didn't find them.

[00:08:26] Or, according to Susan, that proves that the bodies aren't there. I think I was a little higher on it than both of you. Spoiler alert. I am going to recommend it. Spoiler alert. It's not good. It's not a good docuseries. As Katie said, I think intriguing is the perfect word. It's pitiable. These women, Lucy, her stepsisters, Mari, Dawn and Charlotte. Charlotte's daughter, also called Charlotte.

[00:08:55] Her sister, Susan. Her cousin, Linda. Her aunt, Marilyn, named after Marilyn Monroe. So, this family is just the sadness and the pity of it. Whether or not he was a serial killer, he was a violent man who came from a violent family. And Linda, the cousin, does say, our family is violent. The producer says, Oh, can we talk to your mother, Dawn's sister? And Linda says, No, you can't.

[00:09:24] She's in jail for attempted murder. So, that I liked isn't the word. But I was honoured to honour them by listening to their stories. But the pity I felt for them, particularly Susan. If you look up denial in the dictionary, there is a photograph of Susan. Desperately damaged by her father, by her family. Desperately clinging on to the happy family story. Look at these photographs.

[00:09:54] You can see we are happy. You can see we are not scared of him. No, Susan. No, that's not true. They didn't find remains in the two places. They dug on this huge property. That proves that dad wasn't a serial killer. So, Susan, for me, I think they want us to feel for Lucy the most. But I felt for Susan the most. She hasn't even begun to have to deal with what she has to deal with. And she may never. She may never. Katie? I agree.

[00:10:24] I agree. Yeah, that was really difficult also because any memory that she had is from a picture, which isn't, that's not real. That's difficult to watch. Because when you have traumatic stuff in your past, at least it's been shown that a lot of times that sort of gets blocked. So she's sort of making up new memories based on these pictures she sees where everybody is smiling in a picture, right? That's not a real memory. That's something that she's seeing.

[00:10:54] But I was shocked. There's one point in this. First of all, therapy is expensive and should be accessible to everyone. And so I'm grumpy about that. But Lucy goes to a hypnotherapist. And I was like, OK, forget the hypnotherapy part of this. But I was also very concerned that this was going down that path at this point, that somehow

[00:11:22] some of her awful memories about her dad killing these women were planted by a hypnotherapist. But I think that was her first time there. Did either of you think for a minute that we were getting implanted memories at some point? So the hypnotherapist that they showed in the documentary, that was her first time going to her. It was. Yes.

[00:11:48] And I honestly think that that session was conducted very well. My mom, my mom does hypnotherapy as as therapy for like a some like traumatic brain stuff that she's had. And so, yeah, just like TIAs, like ischemic, small ischemic mini strokes. Um, she goes she goes to a hypnotherapist and it's it's helped her so much.

[00:12:17] So hypnotherapy as a profession, I do actually truly believe in because a lot of it isn't just recovering memories. It's retraining your brain for stuff. Yeah. Um, for just regular stuff. However, and I and like I said, the session that we saw, I thought was actually conducted very well. It didn't feel like any planting. It felt like that at all. Right. Yeah.

[00:12:44] The doctor lady, she was just kind of like, OK, what's what are you feeling? What are you feeling? And the minute that the minute that Lucy got agitated, she brought her out. She like, you know, I was I was saying tell her it's not happening now. Tell her it's not happening now. And she said to the to the to a greater or less extent, I was just it's not happening now. You know, I was just worried her going that that this is where the documentary was going. I was relieved that it wasn't.

[00:13:10] So my thought process is she probably went to somebody who wasn't this doctor who could have like like when you guys say when you said about Susan, like she's using photos as like false memories and stuff like that. I agree. And then on the on the flip side with Lucy, I'm I'm just concerned about how do you remember at four years old dumping a body with your father? Like, why would your father let you dump a body with him?

[00:13:40] Also, like even if Don was going to involve his children, puny little girl arms at four, they can't lift a body. He's practical. He's going to get that poor other fellow who was in a pub and carried a body with him. He seems to have been very careless about who carries a body with him. So Lucy is I think her son is very interesting. He says that his childhood was either extremely stable and when his mother was working and they were financially stable and everything was fine.

[00:14:08] And then she would only you said go off the rails, but basically become gripped by this. I'm going to call it mania. It doesn't mean I don't believe that she believes it and it doesn't mean I don't believe it's true, but it's like a mania. And you can see that how she gets touched off. And I'll come to that. But so then they have a couple of years where she's investigating, whatever that means, and their money runs out.

[00:14:36] So this young man's had a very unstable life himself. And while we have absolutely no reason to believe that Lucy has been violent, this is the generational violence being visited upon her son through her agitation and through her mania. However, I have reason to believe that he staged at least one of the suicides of the wives.

[00:15:05] Mary, what did you think? Oh, yeah. If there's any rescuing this docuseries, because I'm very hyperbolic about how much I just I just liked it. It wasn't it wasn't like bad. It was bad. No, no, it was bad. But it wasn't like I wasn't offended bad, to be quite honest. It was just kind of boring. It was kind of uninspired at parts. But the parts that it did get right, I did enjoy.

[00:15:32] And the parts that they got right was including Charlotte's children, her three daughters, and investigating Charlotte's death, because that's one of the murders that they could actually go back and look at and kind of find some evidence for. So they they exhume Charlotte, who is Lucy's stepmother, who is the three women's mom.

[00:15:57] Marie, Dawn and Charlotte are Charlotte's daughters. Charlotte was Dawn's studies, the man, his fourth wife. And again, this is where Lucy actually has some backup here, right? So Charlotte's three daughters were of age when Donald and Charlotte got married.

[00:16:24] And so they actually say when Donald moved in with his four kids, you know, Lucy and her two sisters and brothers, they said they saw him beating those kids. So we have independent sources saying that they did witness abuse. So we do know that Lucy has some bearing to what she's saying.

[00:16:50] And that's how we're also can make this the conclusion of Susan being like, you know, her being like, we weren't afraid. You know, we can see the flip side of her kind of blocking out her traumatic stuff. So this part, I was like, oh, my God, thank you. Some actual evidence. And not only that, the three daughters are actually wanting to figure out what happened to their mom.

[00:17:14] So they do give consent for the documentary team to pay for the exemption of their mom's body. They get several like forensic. Oh, my God. They had a whole forensics team to go over the autopsy of the exhumation, then the previous autopsy. And this was why I was like, oh, my God, finally. We can actually sink our teeth into. This is the documentary, isn't it?

[00:17:41] The documentary is Dawn, Marie and Charlotte and their mother. That, to me, is our 87-minute documentary. And the law enforcement. Yes. Oh, yes. For some reason, they did not want to investigate that properly. Katie, there was no disturbance in the snow around her car where she was dead inside. So therefore... There's no snow. First of all, there's no snow. But if there had been, surely Donald's footsteps would have been.

[00:18:10] So the sheriff is very agitated about it. He wants to visit violence on anybody that would even question him. Yeah. Oh, my God. Just to... I don't want to bash Susan like her father did. But she does a very classic thing, which, again, I just feel such pity for her. They say to her, but, you know, Lucy says he beat you.

[00:18:38] Well, everybody got beaten in those days. Okay. Lucy says he beat your mother. Well, she beat him back. Everybody's... So everything that she did, either it didn't happen or if it did happen, it was justifiable. Whereas Dawn, Marie and Charlotte, again, very good point that therapy is expensive. They seem to have...

[00:19:04] Perhaps it's because they were older and because there are three of them as a united unit, they seem more measured. And when Lucy goes off at them, they're incredibly measured. They don't follow her down that road. Katie, talk to us about the scene at the exhumation when Lucy and the three women arrive and the digging has begun.

[00:19:33] Listen, Lucy has in her mind that things are going to happen a certain way. And when things deviate from that, it's unpleasant for people around her. And she loses it, for lack of better terms. Which also leads me to believe that if she's doing that over the years trying to get this story told with law enforcement, etc., nobody wants to help her. Which is a shame.

[00:20:02] But it's... The few confrontations we have in this with Lucy are 0 to 50 in one second. Just upset and won't hear reason about it. Like, we started digging because it takes a while. And I don't know why she thought she needed to be there for every piece of this process, which is not necessary.

[00:20:29] But she kind of can't hear anything else. It's a little of what we get in episode three as well. We do... I think that there were some parts cut in episode three when she started to get heated with who she refers to as Smith and people on the land. A Smith. A Smith. A Smith because you can't trust a Smith. Yeah. Yeah. I agree. Lucy, she's very singular-minded. It's...

[00:20:58] You know... I think there's some unspokenness here. I think... I'm really wondering if Lucy took the brunt of the abuse. I wonder if there was some sexual abuse maybe with Lucy. And it's those things that we talk about it over and over again when we cover... You know, we cover such heinous crimes and stuff like that.

[00:21:26] And oftentimes when there is a family member who is abusing another family member, normally including sexual abuse, they do it to one family member. And so the others just don't believe it. It didn't happen to them. So they don't... They don't believe it. Or stuff like that. And I'm just wondering if Lucy got the brunt of that and Lucy is just trying to be like, I'm not crazy.

[00:21:56] Somebody believe me type thing. She's been talking about how horrible Donna is. She's... Clearly seems like of the four children of what we know, the only one that really like despises their dad, despises Donald. Like Susan and their other sibling, their other sister, refused the exhumation, which it makes sense. The exhumations are expensive and stuff. I think that's... You know, that's what I would say would be the reason not to. But they just don't believe in the dad.

[00:22:26] You know, they don't believe he's a killer and all of that. And it's just... I'm just saying that Lucy, I think, is just trying to... She's trying for vindication. I do think that she cares about these people that she feels like may be in that well. But I also think she's doing it to prove that she is not crazy. And it's, you know, to prove that she remembers these things and these things happen.

[00:22:54] And because of that, she gets so riled up about what's happening. And when we see them digging up the lot and Sean Smith is there, which was a funny turn of events because we have been talking to him through the whole documentary. And then in the third act, we're like, oh, he owns the land now. And I was like, oh, that's cool. I see you. I see you. But her just unloading on him was like, oh, okay. Like... She has allowed them on the property.

[00:23:23] Yeah, she's unable to... I think that's very insightful. She wants to be there and in charge of everything that's going on. Because as a child, she wasn't in charge. I think that's true. Katie, did you, like me, get flashbacks to look into my eyes when you saw the rail of the cupboard that Lucy is said to have hung herself from and how low it was?

[00:23:49] Do you remember in Look Into My Eyes, those children committed suicide, kneeling down, basically? I forgot about that. Thanks for reminding me. No, yes, I do. I do remember that. Now, here's what I didn't like with Susan's explanation of why she wouldn't exhume the Bonnie. I wish she had said money. Even though the documentary crew is clearly paying for a lot of this.

[00:24:18] She said, let her rest. Which means that Susan is worried that there could be some evidence that that wasn't actually what happened. And that becomes then, these sisters are just in battle. And so it's, I'm right, no, I'm right. And it's, neither one is going to relent.

[00:24:43] Even though we do get a glimpse, like a tiny glimpse at the end, that both of them kind of have a little bit of leeway. But only at the very, very, very end do we see a teeny, teeny, teeny bit of that. But, so, I don't, oh my goodness, that documentary. Sorry. You don't. Yeah, I'm sorry. She's gone right. She's hypnotized. She's been hypnotized.

[00:25:08] Yeah, Susan does say, the producer right at the end says, if there were bodies, where would they be? And she says, in the well. Which is what Lucy's been saying all along. But we don't find the well, so was there a well, Mary? Right. No, that's what I was confused about. So did they, so they just never found the well? Did they never find the bodies or did they never find the well? Never found the well. Oh, they never found the well. Okay. Because I thought, well, they thought they found the well at one point. But that was not the well. Doesn't mean there's not a well.

[00:25:39] It doesn't mean there aren't bodies. Like, are you maybe misremembering the well part of it? And that you saw an area, but it wasn't actually a well. It was just a hole. Or did you not see the bodies? Did you not carry the bodies? But do you know your father so well that on a lizard instinctual level, you know that he was killing these women who came into the house briefly? It's also possible that between wives, he did have sex workers come and live in the house who would then leave, you know, unharmed.

[00:26:08] It's not out of the question. Very interesting. Susan does say, well, 50 to 70 sex workers went missing. I mean, someone would notice. Susan, no. No. No. They wouldn't. That's the whole thing, Mari. Right. Unfortunately, they would not. That is why sex workers are continually targeted because it still hasn't changed. And especially back then. Yeah. No. Yeah. Not at all. In the 70s and 80s. No. Can we talk about Marilyn?

[00:26:38] Because Marilyn. I was just about to throw Marilyn to you. Thank you. Sucking on her cigar. Oh, my gosh. I was like, when they went. And again, I was like, okay, I believe her. She said, she said, I hate Lucy. Yeah. She said, I hate Lucy. However. I hate Lucy. Sorry, Marilyn. You're fab. I think Donald killed 100 people. What?

[00:27:09] Like, and that's, and I was like, and I believe you because it was her deathbed confessional. She said she saw him kill two people at least. So I was like, I believe Marilyn. Marilyn ain't got no reason to lie. Even though at one point she was like, she said she couldn't say because she's on parole. I'm like, lady, you, you told us you were doing this because you were about to die. Why do you care? But Sarah, I don't know if you want to go into Marilyn's backstory or not. So yes.

[00:27:37] Well, Marilyn, named after Marilyn Monroe, is Donald's sister. She's the seventh of seven. He was the first of seven. She was the seventh of seven. So it was a very parentified relationship because that family was very, I think those children were left alone quite a lot. And so Donald was in charge and she loves him, loved him to this day. She's in the ground now. She loves him. She also knows who he is.

[00:28:05] So I think that's why I, of all the people, I think Marilyn is the one that is really getting to the guts of everything because she can say, I loved him more than my own life. And he definitely killed people. So Linda, her daughter has said that their entire family is violent. And Marilyn was in jail because she, sorry, I'm not laughing. It's not funny.

[00:28:29] She beat her boyfriend with a claw hammer and she's doing eight years for attempted murder. Katie, how did Marilyn strike you? Delightful. A delight. Fun at a dinner party. I believe Marilyn. I do. Even though I think some things are exaggerated and she's doing a lot for dramatic effect because I don't know if anyone else noticed, but I certainly did that she's not smoking her entire cigarette.

[00:28:53] She's definitely using the lighting of it and some things for dramatic effect and then puts it out halfway done. And I was looking at her as a former smoker and saying, As a former smoker, I also noticed. Nay, you're not doing that. And also, I believe they're very expensive now. So no, you're not putting it out. Unless the production team bought her a pack of sakes. Maybe they bought her a carton. A hundred percent. I don't know what's going on. A hundred percent they bought her a carton. Yeah.

[00:29:22] But she is there for the drama. Yes. But there's something. She died two months after they filmed that interview and she knew she was on her last legs and she said it's been weighing on her, which Murray was why I also was surprised when she said there were things she wouldn't say. It's like, why do you care? Exactly. She was driving as a teenager with Donald. This is an awful story.

[00:29:49] And they stopped to get petrol and she saw the man at the petrol station and she turned away quickly and Donald said, what's that? And she says, oh, that's just one of the men who raped me. And he said to her, look at him properly and tell me that you're absolutely sure. At which point she maybe should have said no. She said, yes, I'm sure. And he went in and beat the man to death, according to Marilyn. Again, I believe her.

[00:30:20] I truly, truly do. Well, I truly believe that Donald beat the man senseless, whether he was actually dead or not. It's another story. I agree. Because nobody has ever investigated Donald. Not even when he found his wife in her car, shot through the head, surrounded by snow with no footprints in it. Katie, talk about law enforcement and how much you love them.

[00:30:48] I am really grumpy about law enforcement in this one. He did have a Sasquatch. He had a Squatch mug. I don't know if you noticed. It doesn't count. It doesn't matter. Not the Squatch mug for you. No. I mean, it would have helped if he had done one thing or not been so defensive. How old is this crime? This is not a problem. It feels like everyone was sort of afraid to look into it.

[00:31:16] This just happened a long time ago that Charlotte killed herself. So I don't understand why it feels like because even the person that comes in and does the autopsy for the second time, that woman who comes in. Dr. Erin Lindy, who we meet, I believe, in episode two, feels very concerned that if she makes any sort of blanket statement like this definitely was not a suicide, there's going to be problems. So why?

[00:31:47] Why? Because this is a very, very old crime. And it's the worst thing about law enforcement. This is something that happens on Dateline all the time where people either A, don't want to do the work. So this department either doesn't want to dig into this, what they would consider a closed case. They don't want to hear it. Or they're like protecting their own. So they definitely won't look into it because it'll make them look bad.

[00:32:14] Like they didn't do a thorough investigation, which clearly you didn't. Because the shape of the gun, the length of distance from the arm to, you know, her face, the whole thing. It's just very obvious. Ugh. Exactly. Like, I was like, what do you mean you can't talk about this case?

[00:32:36] If the case is closed, you ruled it a suicide, and it was from 40 plus years ago, there's nothing legally, there's no legal reason as to why it's not public information. As far as I understand. Yeah. Like, that didn't make any sense. And that's one of the reasons that sometimes, in my opinion, law enforcement in the US leave cases open. Because if they're open, then you can't foyer any of the information. Exactly.

[00:33:06] Yeah. So listeners, as you can hear, there was a lot in it. Just with our final thoughts and our ratings. Katie, she's shaking her head again. You did this last time. She refuses to go first. Ma, how many magnifying glasses are you going to give My Killer Father The Green Hollow Murders out of a possible five? I'm going to give My Killer Father The Green Hollow Murders 2.5.

[00:33:33] I was going to give it a two, but I'm going to be nice for you guys. I wouldn't recommend it. I'm going to be real with you, Chief. I don't recommend it. Because three episodes for this, to me, it took me too many times to watch it. I watched it, but it took too many times. And I just thought there was too many slow parts. And I think there is a better documentary in there.

[00:33:58] If they had just focused on the wives portion of it, I think this would have been way, way better, way more interesting. Because it's like, because you have the first wife that died by suicide. I was like, oh, that sounds fishy, but we can't do much with it. You have the fourth wife, who is the second wife that died by suicide. This is the investigation. This is the reenactment. The reenactment was so good. Talking about the length of the arm, how the shell ejected, all of that.

[00:34:26] That is where, and then getting at the end, getting the undetermined, the turning it from a suicide to an undetermined for the autopsy. That's your kind of big win, quote unquote, in this. And then also the fifth and final wife with the whole, her death was ruled natural. Her family believes it's natural. Lucy thinking it wasn't.

[00:34:50] Like, that I thought was, was interesting because I, I, I didn't believe Lucy there. That was the one time I was like, Lucy, I think you might be stretching a little bit. But the three wives, the tale of the three wives, I think is much better, could be much better told than we're going to go start digging in this area for this. I will say that it did have pretty good graphics.

[00:35:14] I did like the graphics, the, like the tree, the, it had like, what felt like claymation graphics or like, um, and it was pretty interesting. And then the visualizations during the hypnotherapy session was pretty cool too. So I, I really thought visually some parts were, were, were pretty cool. But honestly, I, I thought, I thought it, I thought this was a waste of time.

[00:35:39] Like I hate, I, I hate when they drag out something for three episodes when it did not. I truly don't think this needs to be three episodes. Yeah, no, I, I can't. Even if the episodes were fairly short, 40 ish minutes, 47 minutes ish. No, the last one was 52, nearly an hour. Well, interestingly, you came to 2.1 on my behalf. I'm saying two, it's terrible. So it's terrible. However, I was, I was never bored.

[00:36:09] I was never bored. I was intrigued. I really liked meeting all these women. Marilyn was a treat for, for episode three. I do see that there is a really good documentary in there, a 90 minute, 87 minute documentary focusing on the three sisters, Charlotte, Dawn and Marie and the apparent suicide of their mother, also called Charlotte. With Lucy as a, perhaps a side character rather than a main character.

[00:36:39] So it's really not good, but I'm going to recommend that people watch it. It's pretty wild. Katie, now you must say. I'm going to hang in three magnifying masks because, listen, I don't watch as many documentaries as y'all. So to me, as the average documentary watcher, but a true crime watcher, it had what I needed to make it through all three episodes.

[00:37:08] Like, are they going to find these bodies? Is this real? I thought there was going to be a big reveal. It did not pay off. Spoiler alert. Still watch it because you will probably think the same thing. And also it was an easy watch in that it, it was shot well for me to, to look at it. It seemed like there was some good, some pretty photography in there.

[00:37:32] And I fully agree that if we had done something just based on the wives, it, you could have had a, the staircase type situation. Cause that's the Michael Peterson case. And that case is huge and very intriguing. Lucy would never have let that happen. There is no way. So you either had to not solve Lucy at all. And I don't think that happened. I think Lucy was bound and determined to make sure that she told this story.

[00:38:00] Lucy probably saw something, whether she saw as much as she said, we don't know. There's a FBI expert at the end that I feel like sums it up great. And it's like, this is almost two cases. And it is. But then in that case, maybe we could have had two documentaries. One that's slightly wild than the other. Yeah. I, I really like, maybe my suggestion would be to, would be to watch episode two and episode three.

[00:38:29] Like, I don't really know if we needed episode one, to be quite honest. There you go. I don't know if we needed, if we needed that, because I think the same stuff that's iterated, that's iterated, well, it's told in episode one is reiterated throughout the other two episodes. And it was probably midway through episode two that I realized they weren't going to find the bodies. Because also the horrible thing about Paramount Plus, they do the sizzle reels, Sarah. Remember, we hate the, the sizzle reels before. Coming up on. Coming up.

[00:38:58] That's why I got to get it. Yes. No. But Katie, at one point, they, they used footage that. They used the journalist saying, what you have been looking for all your life is right behind you. Right behind you. They used that several times. When we came to it in the documentary, he said, imagine if what you have been looking for all your life is right behind you. And I thought, you fuckers. Yes. I got me. Exactly, Sarah. I got me out. Exactly.

[00:39:27] I was, I, I, I saw it. I was like, oh, oh my God. Again, Katie, we watch too much of this. So we, we see the tricks and the, the production editing and stuff like that. And I, I, I call that. And I was just like, then what else are we here for type thing? Yeah. I'm going to be, okay. I'm going to be ready next time. Watch it out. I do not get tricked. All right.

[00:39:55] And we have a mini review. We watched the last episode of the latest drop of the untold series. This one is called the shooting at Hawthorne Hill. Retired Olympic equestrian, Michael Barrison took on Lauren Kennerick as a student on his idyllic farm in New Jersey. Over time, tension mounted between the two, leading to 911 calls, cryptic social media

[00:40:22] posts, and accusations of spying, leading to Barrison shooting Kennerick in the chest. At his trial for attempted murder, he claimed he had been driven insane by her social media attacks. The jury agreed. Katie, please tell us your thoughts and your ratings for the shooting at Hawthorne Hill. I have not seen any of the untold series. Get into some first viewing of my thought.

[00:40:52] The overall, this was infuriating. I was really mad about this whole case. This is going to show up on Dateline, I think. Can someone tell me when the trial took place? I couldn't figure out what year we were in. It was like just last year or so. It was like 2023, 2024, something like that. It is very recent. I looked it up. I think it was 2023. I'll look it up while you talk.

[00:41:17] This has got to come to Dateline because this courtroom, the whole courtroom, I was losing my mind. I needed to watch the whole trial. So my feeling on this is everyone should watch it because it is shocking and nothing based on how it was filmed or anything else. I'm giving this, I don't give this a 3.5. It also is infuriating. Yes, you're right.

[00:41:47] It may come up on Dateline. The trial was 2022. 2022. The shooting was 2019. So it's all very recent. Fuck these fuckers. Honestly. These elitist, imperialist, moneyed so-and-sos. It's not great. Lauren at one point says, oh, people think I'm entitled. I don't know why. Because you are entitled. You are the picture of entitled.

[00:42:16] Now, Michael Barrison is an Olympian. So we have to give him that. That's a lot of training and all of that. You cannot do this sport unless you are completely loaded. Like many girls, I liked horses. I never had a horse, but my parents would drive me to a place and they would rent a horse for half an hour and I'd jog around on it. Not a lot.

[00:42:41] And I never asked for one because there was just never a moment that it was going to be possible for us to own one, let alone take up a sport that costs so much money. The horses cost money. What you wear costs money. Driving the horses to the airplane, flying the horses to the competitions. It's infuriating.

[00:43:06] And that nobody in this documentary, they do talk about money, but no one acknowledges how elitist it is. No one acknowledges also how, I'm sorry, stupid it is. Horses don't go backwards. You can get them to go backwards. They don't go backwards. They don't go sideways. So dressage is about the triumph of human over animal. We make them do these unnatural things. Now, these horses are amazing.

[00:43:34] They're very, very beautiful and they are sports animals in their own right. But the imperialism, the colonialism of invading this species. And you're not just using it to ride from A to B. Fine. You are compelling it into these unnatural movements. Make them beautiful. I just, oh, I loved every minute of this documentary.

[00:44:04] I'm giving it three and a half as well. Mari, how about you? It was great. It was great. I hated everyone. I hated absolutely everyone. At first, too, I think I had misunderstood who got shot at first because it took me a minute to realize we were talking to Lauren who had gotten shot. I thought for a minute that Michael's girlfriend had gotten shot because she wasn't here. I think she just didn't want to participate.

[00:44:34] Would she? Would she? Would she? Oh, my God. But other than that, I was like, oh, you guys suck. Like, it's when two people you don't like and one shoots. He shot her point blank in her chest and got away with it. Got away with it. And it had to be because the jury didn't like her either. It has to be. I don't like her. I don't like her. Because that acting mad. Katie, did you like him acting mad at the defense table? Oh, my God.

[00:45:03] I was like, Kim really needs to see this immediately. This is bananas. But yeah, she was that unlikable on the stand. Correct. She was that vile. The jury was like, we would have shot you, too. Right. You're getting shot. Which is crazy. And again, points to money. Money, money, money, money. There's no justice like that. That money that you can put behind it. So I was just pissed. I was like, I don't even like her.

[00:45:32] But I know she did not deserve to get shot in the chest and almost died. Like, what? But I thought it was so funny how the documentary just shows you how bad they both are. Especially her. Like, her yelling at Bob, Bob, Bob. What was that in the name? Like, she just kept yelling at him. I love this. I give it a four. The Untold series, Katie, is really good. And it's perfect for like, again, sports stories you don't know about. I had never heard about this. And this was so interesting.

[00:46:02] And then to see Michael was there the whole time talking to us. And to see him talking to us for what, the first hour, 45 minutes. And then to see the act that he put on in the courtroom, I was like, you got to be kidding me. I'm a director. I have some notes. First of all, you're doing too much. Way too much. Way too much. Overact. Just take it down a little bit. But she's at 125 every minute of her life.

[00:46:32] Bring me a whip immediately. Bob, bring me a whip immediately. I need a whip right now. Okay. And, you know, all that money doesn't make you an Olympian. If you don't have the seat, if you don't have the skill, you're not going to get there. So you can't buy your way in. Very interesting about, you know, getting on a horse that knows what they're doing, which I have done as an adult. Went to a dressage school.

[00:46:58] And the woman, you know, schooled me and then said, do you want to get on this other horse? And it's like, oh my God, these horses are amazing. Which made me madder because I thought these awful people own these animals. Like, own them in whatever the worst version that you think of that word. Own them. And she wanted this really good horse and so she just took it. And then she made him sell it to her for half price. I mean, go watch it, everybody.

[00:47:27] I think we're all recommending it. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Definitely. Katie, what do you have to recommend to our listeners? I think I always recommend a bunch of horror literature every time I'm on. Horror literature. So I just did a trip, which means I did another book. And this one I half read, half listened to because of what I was doing. Part on a plane, part driving.

[00:47:53] But the book is by a pretty well-known author. I don't know if I've recommended before, but I think pretty well-known, at least in the horror-lit circle. And his name is Grady Hendrix. And I think there's a famous book about the Southern Lady's Guide to Vampire something. It's something. This one that I read was called How to Sell a Haunted House. It is not what I expected.

[00:48:22] If you're into things, I was just more impressed with the creativity of the idea of this. You've taken the idea of a puppet and made it pretty creepy. And, you know, puppets and dolls can be creepy, but this specifically was very clever. So Grady Hendrix, How to Sell a Haunted House. Everybody loves puppets. No. I was literally, I was in the middle of looking it up, and then you said puppets and dolls. I was like, oh, no, not for me. Oh, and in the audio.

[00:48:52] They tell the boys. Oh, no. Oh, yeah. Uh-huh. Delete, delete, delete. Literally on my audio. Delete, delete, delete. No. A Final Girl support group by the same author is excellent. I love that book so much. I didn't realize it. Have you read any more from that author? I haven't, but I'm going to read How to Sell a Haunted House. But The Final Girl is so good. So good. Mari, that one's really good.

[00:49:22] And it does not puppets. It's just such an interesting idea again. It's these really clever ideas. I'm impressed, slightly jealous. So, yeah. I love that. And Mari, how about you? What do you have to recommend to our listeners? So, I got around to watching Widow's Bay on Apple TV. Since we're staying in the horror genre here, Widow's Bay is a horror comedy. And my husband really wanted to watch it.

[00:49:52] We made time to watch it. And it is excellent. Horror comedy. I'm trying to think of other type of titles that are like that. And I really can't think of any. We're just into like almost like episode three. So, we just started. But so far, it's so good. It's so, it knows the right time to be funny. And it knows the right time to be creepy. And I wish I had the director's name. I know his first name is Hero. He directed.

[00:50:21] He's actually the director who directed some episodes of the show Atlanta that me and Chappelle covered. He directed basically all of Atlanta's like scary themed episodes. So, he. Oh, like the White House. Oh. The Michael Jackson. Yep. Yep. Yep. Exactly. He directed that one. And so, watching him direct Widow's Bay has been just spot on. Like picture perfect spot on.

[00:50:50] So, loving that on Apple TV for sure. I'm looking that up. Also, it's got Matthew Rhys from the Americans in it. Oh, yes. He's amazing. Love him. It's full of comedians. It's actually like great. Yeah. Uh-huh. It's really good. I have one more. Apologies. Amazon Prime. I believe it's called Last One Laughing. And it is all of these UK comedians in a home. This is the UK version.

[00:51:19] Season two just dropped. Bob Mortimer is back. David Mitchell is in it. Who is my favorite. Your secret husband. And my husband. Yes. He is still unaware. Well, if we're still just recommending comedy. What you got? Funny AF with Kevin Hart on Netflix is actually pretty good. Great. Yeah. It's a stand-up. It's a stand-up comic competition show.

[00:51:48] Reality competition show. Stand-up comedy reality competition show. Hosted by Kevin Hart, Kumail Nanjiani, Chelsea Handler and Keegan-Michael Key. Brilliant. It is great. I don't even like stand-up like that. But I love competition reality shows. And this one's really good. I used to be a stand-up comedian in the 80s. So everybody probably needs a bit of a laugh. So go and see those lighter shows. Get away from the rectangle of doom in your hand.

[00:52:17] Lighting up your face at three o'clock in the morning. And if you are awake, then turn on one of these comedy shows. There you go. At Crime Scene, we're eager to hear your feedback and suggestions for future episodes. You can subscribe by going to crimescenepod.com or search Crime Scene, that's S-E-E-N, wherever you get your podcasts. You can follow Crime Scene everywhere at Crime Scene Pod or email us at crimescenepod at gmail.com.

[00:52:44] You can support us at buymeacoffee.com slash crime scene pod. Sling us a couple of bucks or you can join our monthly membership. We're having a lot of fun over there. Members are receiving episodes, supposed to be early and ad-free. They're definitely getting them ad-free. Sorry about the early part of it. We'll blame our editor, me. But there's five full bonus episodes there at the moment and more coming. We take a few highways and byways.

[00:53:12] It's sort of true crime. But the last one we did was we screamed about The Bachelorette Season 22 with Mel Barrett and Ellen Marsh. Rate and review Crime Scene so that others can find us. Five stars only. Five stars. Your support makes a huge difference. Katie, what have you got going on? Where can the people find you? You can find us on Date Dateline. On all your social medias and we're now on YouTube at a Date with K. Yes, you are.

[00:53:43] You can hum and yell at our faces. Just kidding. Don't. Five stars only. Only positive reviews. That's it. Okay. And what have you got going on, Mari? Where can the people find you? Because I know they want to. Of course, you can find me over on Blue Sky at MariTalksTooMuch. That's two, like the number two. Me and Chappelle over on Recap Kickback. We're just covering just like a whole bunch of things coming up.

[00:54:08] We're covering the Vampire List stat and we'll be pulling Double Duty when House of the Dragon Season 3 comes out again in June. Yeah. Two weeks ago, we covered Michael. The leader review on the Michael Jackson movie, which was fun. And we will be covering the aforementioned Funny AF on Kevin Hart. So if you go and watch it, come and listen to me and Chappelle talk about it. But over on Recap Kickback, we talk about whatever we want to.

[00:54:35] So go to RecapKickback.com in order to subscribe or go to the YouTube page, YouTube.com slash at Recap Kickback. Sarah, what do you got going on and where can the people find you? Other people can find me also on Blue Sky at Sarah Carradine and various other places. I'm covering the traitors on Babes in the Conclave with Annabelle Fiddler. So come over there and listen to us.

[00:54:57] Last week, I was also on Black Girls Talking TV with Kamaria and Victoria talking Survivor Season 50 Episode 10. I had a blast. Like I said, I probably talk Survivor maybe twice a season on podcasts and I normally do it on an affiliated podcast. So it was so fun to go on Black Girls Talking TV and talking about a wild episode of Survivor.

[00:55:23] So if anybody who's listening want to check that out, you can catch Black Girls Talking TV over on YouTube. Members are very lucky. The June member extra will be the ability to watch us live as we record our main feed episode. So it gets all edited cleverly, cutting out all the flubs, all the swears, all the chats that we have in between sections and the inappropriate laughing. You will get all of that.

[00:55:52] We are going to be watching The Nightmare Upstairs, What Happened to Ty and Bryn on Hulu. And our guest will be Chappelle. All that information and the link will be available in the members portal at buymeacoffee.com slash crime scene pod. So if you would like to join us, you would need to join by 9pm Eastern on Friday, June the 5th. Thanks so much to Katie from A Date with Dateline for joining us, edging towards the 10 Timer Club.

[00:56:21] Thanks to Will from America for the theme music and all the comedians making us laugh at this particular moment in time. Thank you. We need you. We love you. Thank you. Until next time, case closed.