Crime Seen | Episode 122: Killer Lies: Chasing a True Crime Conman

[00:00:00] You like to hear true crime podcasts and look behind closed doors?

[00:00:05] Then I have a tip. I am Rahe Klein from Deutschlandfunk

[00:00:09] and I host the podcast Tatortkunst together with Stefan Kolderhoff.

[00:00:13] In our new episodes we are looking for, among other things,

[00:00:16] French Kafka's pop-up letters.

[00:00:18] And we follow the traces of a spectacular breaking-in series.

[00:00:21] It is always crowded with Chinese art from European museums.

[00:00:26] Tatortkunst is available in the Deutschlandfunk-app and everywhere there are podcasts.

[00:00:55] www.trat.de.com.au

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[00:01:48] Crime Seen Pod

[00:01:50] You can also go to crimeseenpod.com to subscribe.

[00:01:56] And someone I know who will be subscribing is Ben,

[00:02:00] who writes,

[00:02:00] I just wanted to drop you a quick note to say thank you for the incredible podcast you both create.

[00:02:06] Oh, Ben, come on!

[00:02:08] Your perspectives on true crime properties are truly thought-provoking and insightful.

[00:02:12] I found myself actively seeking out different properties off the back of your and your guests' reviews and suggestions.

[00:02:20] Thank you, Ben!

[00:02:22] Yes, thank you, Ben. I love a good...

[00:02:23] There is no more joy that I get in my life than like giving a recommendation to somebody

[00:02:29] and then them being like, that was great.

[00:02:32] Like, I love that.

[00:02:33] Yes.

[00:02:35] So, Ben also goes on to recommend The Lie,

[00:02:38] The Murder of Grace Malaine,

[00:02:40] available on Netflix in Australia and New Zealand.

[00:02:44] I guess I'll have to fly to Sydney to watch that.

[00:02:48] Or you've got somewhere to stay.

[00:02:49] Yeah.

[00:02:51] Or is there a...

[00:02:52] Yeah, thanks for having me.

[00:02:52] That's on my list and other people have spoken about it as well.

[00:02:57] I believe it's very good.

[00:02:58] Yes.

[00:02:59] Last week we watched Unsolved Mysteries with Mark Blinkenship.

[00:03:03] But Sarah, what did we watch this week?

[00:03:05] We watched Killer Lies chasing a true crime conman.

[00:03:10] And this comes from New Yorker Studios.

[00:03:13] The New Yorkers also produced investigative podcasts like In the Dark.

[00:03:18] Killer Lies was directed by Ben Selcoe.

[00:03:22] And with us for her 13th time...

[00:03:26] Wow!

[00:03:27] Crime Sins on the chair.

[00:03:29] First guest and now 13.

[00:03:31] It's podcasted journalist, bookshop owner and all-round good guy,

[00:03:36] Sarah D. Bunting.

[00:03:38] Hello, Sarah!

[00:03:39] Hello.

[00:03:40] Plus, it's the same thing.

[00:03:43] Even though you guys are on the move, perhaps.

[00:03:47] I'm glad that I'm still here.

[00:03:49] Yes.

[00:03:49] We will definitely see you on the other side.

[00:03:51] Yeah, we'll take you with us.

[00:03:53] We'll just pack you up and take you with us.

[00:03:55] I hope so.

[00:03:56] Pack up my chair.

[00:03:58] I'll be there.

[00:04:01] So, Sarah was stepped up to second chair while you were on mat league.

[00:04:05] Murray, is this the first time you've seen her since then?

[00:04:08] I think so.

[00:04:09] It feels like forever.

[00:04:11] Now it could be because it has been forever or because I have been in a stupor for the last almost five months trying to take care of a tiny human.

[00:04:19] Either way, I'm so glad to be back here with SDB.

[00:04:23] I'm so glad that you're back truly.

[00:04:26] They were very big shoes that I had to fill and I'm glad that their proper owner is back to talk about his property, all three of us.

[00:04:35] So let's get into the crime.

[00:04:38] Stéphane Bourguin is a French true crime author and frequent television and documentary subject matter expert.

[00:04:45] Between 1990 and 2020, he presented himself as an expert in offender profiling and criminology.

[00:04:53] He claimed to be FBI trained and to have personally interviewed 77 serial killers.

[00:05:00] He also worked in a bookshop called The Third Eye.

[00:05:03] And he said that his own wife, girlfriend or friend, the story changed as he told and retold it, was killed by a serial killer in the US in the 1970s.

[00:05:15] He used this victimhood to gain entry into survivor support groups and access to their stories.

[00:05:22] In 2020, some of his fans began noticing discrepancies in his timeline and his plagiarism both in his published works and in the stories he would tell on television.

[00:05:33] The suspicious fans formed a group online called The Fourth Eye and began publishing YouTube videos pointing out discrepancies.

[00:05:41] They were hoping to get media attention to Bourguin's falsehoods and to hold him to account for using other people's trauma to sell books.

[00:05:51] In 2022, Lauren Collins from the New Yorker who appears in this docu-series wrote an article called The Unraveling of an Expert on Serial Killers,

[00:06:01] which we will link in the show notes.

[00:06:03] In response to the scandal, Bourguin was dropped by his publishers and producers.

[00:06:10] Sarah, what were your overall thoughts on fellow bookshop worker and serial liar, not fellow?

[00:06:18] Bourguin, did you know of him? Do you have his books in stock?

[00:06:22] No and no. But this was definitely one of those pieces in The New Yorker that the whole sort of like true crime commentary it seems like was talking about when it came out, which I think was summer of 2022.

[00:06:39] And that Lauren Collins had really gotten into it with not just Bourguin's misdeeds, but also what that said about the true crime entertainment industrial complex.

[00:06:54] And one of the things that I liked about this series, although I mean killer lies is such a over-injection.

[00:07:03] Yes.

[00:07:04] Yeah, and it's like he didn't actually kill anyone.

[00:07:08] But I did like that a lot of these series won't, they'll try or think about trying to contend with the compromises that we all make consuming and commenting on true crime in terms of like monetizing it for our own gain and so on.

[00:07:30] And then they're like, this is way too much for us. We only have three hours on whatever streaming service. So we give up, we'll have one talking head commentator make a comment about it and then we're out.

[00:07:44] This one actually I felt like, as I said in my review, kind of figuratively tied a rope around its waist and jumped into that quicksand a little more just to see if it could try to make a larger comment about the true crime industry as industry

[00:08:03] and what it means to think of it as an industry and to leverage that the way that Bourguin did for good or ill. And I think it was mostly the latter.

[00:08:14] So I respected that it did that. And also it was like, I mean, it's not breaking any artistic ground, I wouldn't say, but it was extremely competently made and I enjoyed watching it.

[00:08:27] My esteemed colleague Sarah Weinman was a talking head on it.

[00:08:31] And my dream is to be billed as a true crime historian and be able to bring receipts for that shit.

[00:08:39] So yeah, I liked it. I think Nat Geo was underrated in terms of its ability to do series like this and really get good visual materials as well.

[00:08:52] So I dug it. It's not perfect, but I liked it.

[00:08:55] We covered another Nat Geo property on JFK, which was very, very long way. It's the one day series.

[00:09:05] So Murray you're wearing your FBI t-shirt bought at the gift shop.

[00:09:13] It's actually right down the street from me though.

[00:09:16] Oh my God.

[00:09:17] When I visit you, I'm definitely going to the gift shop. What were your overall thoughts on this series?

[00:09:26] Hmm. Complicated because I didn't know what this was about going into it.

[00:09:33] I think, you know, the little sizzle reel at the top was like, oh, these lies and falsehood stuff.

[00:09:38] I was like, okay. And then it was also like we said, title killer lies.

[00:09:43] I was like, does he kill somebody? It's like, yeah.

[00:09:46] Like it's sad when you're like rooting for the murder. That's horrible.

[00:09:50] But you know what I'm saying? Like what is this title here?

[00:09:53] Like I don't did his lies actually kill anybody.

[00:09:57] It like fake killed the one lady who was still alive. So it's like, I don't know man.

[00:10:02] Like it was well done. I did like how it was shot and produced.

[00:10:07] I loved all the like, not even the reenactments, like kind of reenactments style stuff.

[00:10:15] And like the montage that's what it was kind of like montage is like the montage of the one lady going through all the 70s era porn to try and find the woman in the picture.

[00:10:25] Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Erotic films.

[00:10:29] Looking for a snaggle tooth.

[00:10:31] Yeah.

[00:10:33] She totally didn't want to do that.

[00:10:35] No.

[00:10:36] So but yeah, like I, I, it was well done. It was well made.

[00:10:44] But the subject matter to me wasn't as interesting personally like we're going getting away with being an expert commentator for like 40 years.

[00:10:57] At first, the kind of funny thing is during the sizzle world, they're like he kept building himself as an expert and da da da da da.

[00:11:03] And at first I was like, well, if he really did like interview that many people, he can basically become an expert.

[00:11:11] I mean, he doesn't have a degree or anything. But then when they started unraveling like, oh no, he's only talked to like eight people.

[00:11:16] I was like, okay, you know, like, okay, I see the law. I see where the lies are coming. I see it. I see you.

[00:11:20] But it still was just like, not as a big of a deal as I thought. Now I do like when the way that STB says that like it's more of a commentary on the monetization of true crime.

[00:11:33] Now that I like thinking about it like that because it's true this man was putting out he was stealing other people's books to put out books.

[00:11:40] When they said he put out a graphic novel about that the the one serial killer and to include the victim. I was like a graphic novel that that the taste level on that seems very low to me.

[00:11:57] But then I don't know because I have over my shoulder. I do have the last podcast on the left book, which is oh yeah.

[00:12:03] I sell that one. DERF back DERF has them. Rick Geary has them. There's one about Capote in Kansas. I mean, it's weird anyway not to disappear down that rabbit hole but

[00:12:16] Yeah, question for you both.

[00:12:20] As I've observed many times in the last few years and I know it's hacky to say it but like these three episodes could have been a feature and it did this did feel like that a little bit to me because they were there were some like fillery visual tropes in it also that I was like, yeah.

[00:12:43] I think they could have covered and and the you know the gear changes that happened between episodes. You can gear change in a 90 minute feature, you know, and there might have been a tightness and a more a more focused thing.

[00:13:02] I mean the the sideways into is he really did he kill the girlfriend wife friend was pointless because no he didn't because for a start she's alive.

[00:13:17] And I feel like that was a distraction.

[00:13:20] I feel the title wants us to ask whether he's a killer. I think the idea of they kept saying he was getting a masterclass from the serial killers he did talk to.

[00:13:31] And I think they were trying to hint he got such a masterclass that he was able to.

[00:13:36] I think that whole side of it could have been dropped the fact that his pseudonym his nom de plume was almost an anagram of I killed her.

[00:13:47] It's like, yeah, but if you're going to be so clever as to anagram is it in your nom de plume, it would be a complete anagram.

[00:13:55] It would not be. Oh, just drop these letters and somehow it all works. So that side of it irritated me because I didn't need it.

[00:14:04] It wasn't interesting. I think he's dangerous and hurting people without actually killing them.

[00:14:11] So yeah, that's how I feel about the structure of it.

[00:14:16] I like that it gets to I mean you get to the end of episode two and you think, well, how can there be another whole episode?

[00:14:23] Now we get much more into the what is true crime? What are we? Why are we looking at it?

[00:14:30] We get a talking head who is completely anti true crime, which I thought fantastic.

[00:14:35] I've never seen someone who who thinks it's bad.

[00:14:40] Asia Redden actively critiquing the things she's taking part in.

[00:14:47] I thought was like really interesting. So I liked that.

[00:14:51] But yes, as to length, Mary, what did you think?

[00:14:56] Oh yeah, definitely could have been an hour and a half to at most like.

[00:15:02] I think you're right. Here's like maybe it was just a presentation was a let down.

[00:15:09] Like if they had literally just presented it as like, wow, this guy really monetized true crime in a really icky way for 40 years.

[00:15:22] And these are the people who like help catch them.

[00:15:25] Maybe it would have been better. But for me, the setup just didn't there the way they set it up just felt like there was no payback.

[00:15:32] Like they is like they tried to make it true crime when it should have been about true crime, not actual true crime in a sense.

[00:15:40] I don't know if I'm making if that's making sense.

[00:15:42] You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

[00:15:44] The interesting question is did he hurt anyone and we get Dina sigh.

[00:15:48] Sarah, do you want to talk about that section of the documentary?

[00:15:54] He met her at a victim support group and because he has his own story, she felt a fellow feeling and told her story to him which he then used.

[00:16:06] Yeah, and then sort of just iterated on it in a way that I think even in interviews with him in this he's still in this group.

[00:16:18] Kind of Trumpy.

[00:16:22] But look at all the good stuff that I did way is like is trying to point to his own creativity in doing this.

[00:16:34] And the section that I came back to even in the section that you're talking about, Sarah is whoever says in a talking head like once you have a book, then you get on TV.

[00:16:46] And once you're on TV, then you're an expert.

[00:16:50] And it just reminded me of that famous like between the between what actually happened and the legend print the legend that famous quote that it's just like he I think really feels that what he did was justifiable because I don't know like the fake of the thing is the same as the thing.

[00:17:13] I don't I don't know if that's making any sense but like that section I thought was good at sort of hanging a light on the fact that this what he did sounds kind of like just he's a trifle and like we all sort of like a story like that that it's like this guy.

[00:17:33] But it actually had it was serious to the people who trusted him believed in him told him private things like that. And then if he's like testifying or teaching law enforcement how to profile.

[00:17:52] And he just like read it basically in a book that we would have bought out of the back of Mad Magazine where kids like it just is like, Oh, this is like this has real repercussions and that I think granted the title over promised like Marie said, and granted this probably should have been a feature but that's just not how these are sold these projects anymore.

[00:18:18] Yeah, nowadays. But I think it was quite good at underlining the idea that like this wasn't actually an important.

[00:18:28] Like there was a criminal aspect to what he did and that it's not no big deal and it's not just him being creative and a go getter like, you know, you're taking advantage of and trading on horror and pain and you're also just making it.

[00:18:48] You're just making shit up and you're not qualified so yeah questions that raised about money.

[00:18:56] Yes, there is money to be made we meet the extraordinary Dr Mickey Pistorius who's a South African profiler. She made a documentary that Bourgouin managed to get into in 1999 and she visits the dilapidated home of the South African serial killer that she had

[00:19:18] defiled and she breaks down because she says I I are we right in profiting you know I will write a book and I will make money from other people's pain and it's a very genuine moment that he just sucks up and regurgitates elsewhere for his own benefit.

[00:19:36] So there are victims is the wrong word but there is damage being made and I just don't think you can say well look, I made up the story but it brought attention to something that needs to be brought attention to how does that sound to everybody at the moment.

[00:20:18] I know it's not acceptable.

[00:20:21] If we took this whole team all these people these same people and the subject matter was oh we did this to catch this killer. I mean it would probably be like 2010 no notes, the fourth I coming together, then some of them being masked and shrouded and others like

[00:20:39] not me and them talking about the type of investigation and all the stuff that they did to uncover Bourgouin's lies and stuff. It's interesting, it is but again it's still like, okay this man he lied about the stuff and it's like, man that's stupid and that's not cool.

[00:20:59] You know what I'm saying? And it's like yeah expose him. Yeah, like that's not cool. You know what I'm saying? But if these same four people have put their time to solving an unsolved mystery, I'm telling you I would be glued to the TV and that's just the unfortunate thing

[00:21:19] and that might be just my taste in true crime. You know what I'm saying? My feeling about it because I don't want to keep overstating it but I do think that everything about this program was really fantastic except for the subject. For me.

[00:21:42] How did you respond to the fourth I people Sarah?

[00:21:46] Well, first of all it sort of made me think like there's probably a docu series and like the number of like YouTubers or whatever people who now here in 2024 are ending up in true crime documentaries because everybody was stuck in their houses.

[00:22:04] Yeah, three to five years ago and had fuck all else to do and think about and like crimes were being solved and also perpetrated this way the internet is a big wild wonderful scary place.

[00:22:21] I enjoyed like I'm a you know, I like processing stuff so I always enjoy like and here's how we caught him in this slide like I kept watching catfish way after there was any return on my viewing investment for that.

[00:22:34] So I like this kind of story.

[00:22:40] And I also liked that they were later asked to comment on how like the effect that this had had on the person only and why they thought they were like so invested in basically professionally pantsing this dude.

[00:22:56] Yeah.

[00:22:58] And the things that they had to say I thought were good and not like too underlined and asterisked.

[00:23:04] Yeah.

[00:23:04] But I mean, Marry's point is taken that like I am quite preoccupied with the meta aspects of any true crime story and what they say about us sociologically as a whole.

[00:23:22] Things that you use an accent to speak about sound fancy but you know, that's not not every property is cut out to do that and I think this one was but there is kind of like Marry said if you put the word killer in your title.

[00:23:43] People are maybe expecting more serious mayhem then plagiarism on the send which I like that kind of thing.

[00:23:54] Right and then Marry would have seen that title and been like more for you.

[00:23:58] Serity.

[00:23:58] Now what is my expectations would have been set.

[00:24:02] Yeah, exactly.

[00:24:06] Did you just like shark to tree off?

[00:24:09] I did.

[00:24:10] She said just just just confirming that that was an actual awesome thing that I heard and not not an ordinary.

[00:24:22] Yes.

[00:24:23] The fourth I were giving like the don't fuck with cats people like the fun.

[00:24:29] Yes.

[00:24:30] Totally.

[00:24:31] And we've seen it which made it work and we've seen the opposite when we did the the the Hiker killer one, Sarah where the two women were like they were really weird when they were trying to solve that the murder of the guy that died or whatever like these true crime web sluice were were very likeable they're very likeable

[00:24:56] they're they thought they're very educated about their subject matter they were really in on this takedown.

[00:25:02] So, like that was an element that I really did like just like as DB said when they're like saying like when when they would have we have the montages of him saying the exact same stuff in the montage of him changing up the story like all of that was truly truly amazing.

[00:25:21] Again, you just set me up.

[00:25:23] I would.

[00:25:24] I was expecting something grander with all this effort.

[00:25:28] Yeah, I think the setup was very much that they were going to uncover that he had murdered and cut up his wife slash girlfriend.

[00:25:37] I mean even the method of her murder change from decapitation to disembowelment to dicing.

[00:25:43] He found her in inverted commas.

[00:25:47] And one of the things that interesting things about March who's our main sort of our main fourth eye interview is that what she noticed was that he told the story exactly the same way each time.

[00:26:01] There's an idea that people tell the truth the same way and that it changes when they lie.

[00:26:07] But in fact, according to interrogators and interviewers, people who tell the story exactly the same way with the same words and the same cadence are more likely to be lying because they've had to learn it like wrote.

[00:26:19] So I found them all interesting and then for them to go on as you say and talk about the effect that being the fourth eye had on them.

[00:26:29] Both online and personally how it affected their lives.

[00:26:34] That's the juice of this docu-series.

[00:26:39] So interesting.

[00:26:40] Yeah, the question about true crime. Why are we drawn to it? Who are the people? How does it affect us?

[00:26:47] All the stuff that we talk about and talk around and round and we don't even conclude but I think the questions need to be asked.

[00:26:54] That's the juice of the docu-series for me.

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[00:28:25] The other kind of golden nugget, it's in the story but somehow it doesn't fit.

[00:28:32] So I wanted to see what you both thought about it.

[00:28:35] Dynasi was assaulted by Fauneray who is a French serial killer.

[00:28:41] She was assaulted by him when she was 14.

[00:28:43] The judge decided she hadn't been raped enough, sorry trigger warning.

[00:28:47] She hadn't been raped enough so it was an assault and not a rape.

[00:28:51] He went away briefly and came out and killed 10 young girls.

[00:28:56] She carries guilt for that because she says if they had listened to her and if they had.

[00:29:05] Appropriately punished this man that perhaps these girls would still be alive.

[00:29:09] I think that's drawing far too long a bow obviously taking that guilt on herself.

[00:29:14] It is not right because it's not her.

[00:29:18] But she's from Mauritius and she said the words if I was blue eyed blond they would have listened to me.

[00:29:24] I was tearing from her but it seemed like a different story, Murray.

[00:29:28] Yeah, I mean her story like her voice as a victim and her being able to tell her story was very powerful.

[00:29:38] And it was very compelling and it just did not belong here to me.

[00:29:45] Like I would have, I mean she effectively did kind of get her own episode in a sense where like a big portion of episode two was dedicated to her.

[00:29:55] But it was just like, again, are we, we're commentating on how he uses other people's pain for monetization and profit.

[00:30:04] And it feels like we're kind of doing the same thing to her story here where we're injecting her story here so that we can like squeeze some more juice out of this property.

[00:30:15] Very interesting.

[00:30:17] Like I want to say I would have cut her part, but it does end up coming back around to once he he publishes that graphic novel that includes her story and then he.

[00:30:30] He doesn't take responsibility for including the story. They also whitewash her in the story which I don't even know how to feel about that like if you're if you are going to take her story and appropriate her story.

[00:30:44] Tell it right. Don't even make it work even worse like I don't it that was a mind fuck man.

[00:30:52] That part, that was the part where I really was like, let's let's like I was really mad at him you know I'm saying that part and still in Mickey's her.

[00:31:03] Basically, yeah, like just complete. How do you basically publish somebody else's memoir that is that those two parts, maybe it's because it happened to women where I was just like how dare you sir, you know what I'm saying like that was yeah.

[00:31:18] Yeah, I felt really bad from a seat here.

[00:31:22] Well, it's just a fucking B minus white dude who's like well who's going to check this was published in South Africa. I mean, now that we're talking about these two stories that were striking to us within the larger framework of him just appropriating shit so that he could get more attention.

[00:31:44] Maybe the issue is that they needed a slightly different organizing principle and to sort of like lead with the fact that he like this is who he who he chooses to steal from or who he chooses to appropriate whose stories he chooses to just like camp out in and claim for his own.

[00:32:32] And then maybe just like reorganize it so that it's commenting a little more on that.

[00:32:35] Who is carrying, you know, this guilt that is like not appropriate, I guess but also is a perfectly understandable and human response to something like this where you're kind of trying to control it for yourself in your own mind and that ends up being blaming yourself.

[00:32:53] But that's not that's not for him to decide how that story is told really especially under false pretenses so I mean, I think the way they did it was how they felt like they could do it for a traditional like basic cable going to Hulu property.

[00:33:14] But now that we're talking about it I do kind of wish that they'd been a little more creative, I guess and how in whose stories they chose to make important because he took them like that that was the importance of it not just that he was like a big liar who was teaching French cops some shit that he read in a book.

[00:33:39] John Douglas book.

[00:33:41] Yes.

[00:33:41] Yeah.

[00:33:42] Yeah.

[00:33:42] I did enjoy John Douglas like the Chiron that's like John Douglas was like, I don't know her like.

[00:33:51] He's to Lulu says John Douglas.

[00:33:54] Yeah, I mean the interesting thing with Mickey Pistorius and her memoirs is just so she he borrows her manuscript and I thought oh God, this is not good.

[00:34:04] And then he writes a book essentially how I follow Dr. Pistorius around which he didn't do as a part of her investigation and how he thought he could get away with it, I suppose as he's writing and publishing in French.

[00:34:22] So Dr. Pistorius didn't even know about it till fourth eye brought it to her because obviously they're francophones she's not she would never have known that that that material was in his book, but it was fourth eye that were comparing page for page, literally page for page looking for the plagiarism and

[00:34:44] and a comment is made that he is somewhat a victim not that he's a victim that one of the reasons he was caught is he was so popular.

[00:34:52] So he's writing in French about crime and serial killers at a time that perhaps there isn't so much there's enormous amount in English, but not so much in French.

[00:35:02] So he had a lot of fans and in fact all the fourth eye people were fans of his and read everything that he wrote and watched everything that he was on.

[00:35:11] And that's where their suspicion started arising when they saw that there was something wrong with it.

[00:35:19] But yes, I agree, Sarah.

[00:35:20] I think there's a more creative way to look at who's stories he takes and how it affects them.

[00:35:30] So Diana whitewashed in the in the graphic novel or someone interview with her when she never spoke to him as an interview.

[00:35:40] She'd spoken to him in confidence in these groups.

[00:35:45] I mean it's like going into an AA meeting and then writing down everything that everybody says it's the same thing.

[00:35:50] Oh, see, I don't even know if I even got that I really thought that because I they show pictures of them walking together and stuff.

[00:35:57] Yeah. Yeah. So they were in she had set up a victim support group for family loved ones and people like herself who had had violence and acted upon them and particularly serial killers.

[00:36:16] And because he crossed paths with a serial killer when he found his wife slash girlfriend slash friend, he was invited to groups and he could sit and hear all their stories.

[00:36:26] And they had a main cause.

[00:36:30] So he told her when she was worse.

[00:36:33] Yeah.

[00:36:34] When she saw the book he said oh no I didn't see the proofs.

[00:36:38] It's not my fault it's the publisher's fault.

[00:36:40] It's like I don't think so.

[00:36:43] Oh, I mean I thought what he did was bad too.

[00:36:45] I thought he like actually interviewed her and then like stole all that but that is like 20 times worse.

[00:36:53] Sorry to go into like AA and just right now people's stories that is messed up.

[00:37:00] I mean it's it is messed up like I'm not saying it's not messed up.

[00:37:03] It's not lost on me that you know this is this is all still very wrong.

[00:37:07] You know, I'm just again I'm used to people dying so.

[00:37:16] I don't know.

[00:37:18] Yeah, I'm so scared here.

[00:37:21] That's talky more killie.

[00:37:23] More killie.

[00:37:23] That's a thing I've said before.

[00:37:26] Sarah just round us off here with episode three the reckoning when we sort of think everything's over.

[00:37:32] Lauren Collins follows her investigative journalistic instincts and really tries to track down this supposed dead girl woman and sort of beards the line in his den.

[00:37:47] She goes and she interviews him.

[00:37:49] What does she want?

[00:37:51] She wants him to confess that he's lying but he's already actually confessed he's lying.

[00:37:55] What does she want from him here?

[00:37:56] And was this a strange ending to you or did you feel it was where the documentary was going?

[00:38:02] I did feel like it was where it was going.

[00:38:05] It didn't seem strange.

[00:38:06] It just seemed a little this is where the director who is not an experience but was sort of doing like and they were doing shows for most of his career.

[00:38:17] I think prior to this, I think this is where he may be tracked back to the safety of visual cliches of the last few years in the genre like here's an empty interviewee chair and then someone is moving around in the back of the

[00:38:32] shot out of focus.

[00:38:33] Who could it be?

[00:38:34] It's obviously Bourguin.

[00:38:35] I fucking get on with it anyway.

[00:38:41] It's wild because like he has to have known how this was going to go but because he is who he is, he's just trying to rationalize and justify the more interesting part of it was the interviews with Lauren Collins where she's sort of talking about like

[00:38:59] I felt like I had to get to the end of this road and exhaust all the investigative

[00:39:07] you know means at my disposal to see if I could figure out what really happened because we're never going to get the truth from him.

[00:39:17] And I thought that was an interesting comment on what we sometimes need from true crime which is to tell us exactly what happened and why and the quest to find that out is like almost never satisfied right.

[00:39:34] So I thought that was an interesting comment on that but again, I like that meta stuff so I think she had a pretty good idea of how it was going to go and I was glad that she I was glad for her as a journalist.

[00:39:47] That she saw it through and that she can like finally close this file folder put it in a box in her garage and not think about this ass ever again.

[00:39:57] And he just kept doing what he did which was like, you know, but popularity is the same as goodness and you're like well no may not.

[00:40:10] You know I lied.

[00:40:12] Of course I lied and when I said that it was it was joke everyone knew it was a joke.

[00:40:16] And what is the name of the serial killer who killed your wife.

[00:40:19] No, I can't say I can't say I mean it's sort of brilliant.

[00:40:24] Murray, what are your final thoughts here?

[00:40:29] Like I you know, I don't I just like when we talk to the perpetrator.

[00:40:38] I think he let me let me know y'all thoughts on this.

[00:40:43] Did he kind of let the air out of the balloon by like being like yep I lied.

[00:40:48] Yeah, I like about that.

[00:40:49] What about that too?

[00:40:51] You don't say it like this.

[00:40:53] I think that was the idea right because it's like he doesn't want to be pressed on it.

[00:41:00] He doesn't want to be pressed on like but do you feel bad about it?

[00:41:03] Like he doesn't want to go there so he's trying to cut it off.

[00:41:06] So yeah, I think I said that.

[00:41:08] Yeah, I made that up like it was to me again it's the opposite of the things I like I like if you're going to give the perpetrator if the perpetrator is going to be here talking.

[00:41:20] I want them like like giving themselves more rope and look at stupid you know.

[00:41:26] Tell him you love me tell him you love me.

[00:41:28] Exactly.

[00:41:30] That's what I like out of that.

[00:41:31] The fact that he's sitting here and he's not double doubling down on much the the the only thing he does double down on is of course with what of course the black woman victim who he he's like oh no I didn't do that Missy it's just like I he gives up everything else he's just like yeah.

[00:41:52] Yeah, I did it and what so like I might be saying it a little bit more flippant than he was.

[00:41:59] Oh no, no, no much really.

[00:42:03] But it was just kind of like I was like so I don't even get this satisfaction from like you know from being on the show and be like are you lying lying lying lying.

[00:42:14] I sort of didn't mind that yes I think what you say is exactly right the air goes out because we, you know, narratively we want this great clash between Lauren Collins the fearless journalist who watched many many hours of 1970s erotica, including pausing on women's faces in ecstasy to see if she could see the

[00:42:35] snow or tooth and the lying liar who lied and the clash and we we want one of them to come out on top obviously Lauren.

[00:42:45] We want it to be the late great Hannibal Lecter and Kerry Starling and that kind of meld you know fight of minds the clash, and it's not and I kind of liked that as I was sort of thought yeah because this is actually what it's like there is no triumph.

[00:43:04] It is this man going on and on with his mendacity and his awfulness and never, never finding the sweet piece of confession.

[00:43:21] Sarah how many magnifying glasses are you going to rate killer lies chasing a true crime conman out of a possible five.

[00:43:30] I will go with four.

[00:43:32] I think it does.

[00:43:34] I think it is a little too long.

[00:43:36] I think it could have been structured a little more creatively but I think for what it is and I you know, I do feel like I have to sort of not clock creators and directors in this genre for like they wanted to make a property about X case and the options are

[00:43:57] 341 minute episodes like that's what everyone has to do so I'm not blaming anyone for that.

[00:44:04] I thought it was often more insightful than it needed to be and very visually compelling.

[00:44:12] Some, you know some drawbacks and I did kind of feel like they let Borgonia get away with get away with them, you know continuing his mendacity in the end.

[00:44:23] But overall, you know, I was not bored and it was a provoking viewing experience so I'm going for out of five.

[00:44:33] And Mari how about you how many magnifying glasses for this docu series.

[00:44:38] I'll give it a three.

[00:44:39] I'll give it a three like I, it was on, you know, is easy, easy watch.

[00:44:47] I did have to go back a few times because the when they go back and forth between like French and English, you know, you know, sometimes I'm half paying attention when it's in English I'm like oh God, it's French I got to stop and read the subtitles now.

[00:45:01] Yeah.

[00:45:03] But like it, like I said, it wasn't it wasn't bad like it wasn't bad it wasn't offensive.

[00:45:10] Like I don't feel like I completely wasted my time I'm not mad I'm just not impressed in a sense of like.

[00:45:19] Yeah, I just I don't know I feel like I'm being a broken record and I don't want my listeners are listeners to think that but it was just it was just good and they they just they just set set me up for failure.

[00:45:34] Me personally, I think I maybe I should have done more research going into a to temper my expectations but like it was just a fine piece of media.

[00:45:46] Sarah how about you.

[00:45:48] Well, I'm going to go right in the middle.

[00:45:49] I'm going to go three and a half.

[00:45:51] It would have been three, except for I think the real juice is the contemplation of you know true crime and who are we and why we're watching it.

[00:46:00] And I love them having a talking head that thinks true crime is not a good thing to be engaged within the way we engage with it in and I found her very compelling.

[00:46:10] I liked meeting dynasi and I liked meeting Dr. Mickey Pistorius think they were very compelling the documentary went where I didn't know it was going to go so I didn't find it predictable, but I absolutely agree that the title just sets you off on the wrong foot.

[00:46:31] I think it's very well made.

[00:46:33] I recommend it.

[00:46:34] It's not a two screener because there's there's quite a lot of French that is subtitled, but I like that that made me concentrate either concentrate or kind of imagine that I understood French.

[00:46:46] I don't know.

[00:46:47] So three and a half for me.

[00:46:50] So Sarah what do you have to recommend to our listeners just now.

[00:46:55] To my surprise, a very royal scandal on Amazon Prime.

[00:47:02] That's the third season of the very whatever British English scandal.

[00:47:08] That's the third iteration.

[00:47:10] I do not care for Epstein related things being called scandals.

[00:47:14] I think that's much too light and fizzy a word but this is a franchise that has that word in it.

[00:47:19] And it does feel like the show runners probably would have changed that if they could.

[00:47:25] This is about this is another property on that notorious Prince Andrew Newsnight interview.

[00:47:30] If you watched scoop from earlier this year, you might be like, why do we need this?

[00:47:35] Well, right?

[00:47:36] It's extremely well acted.

[00:47:38] It's extremely well production designed.

[00:47:41] It just like every episode is a full hour and I was not looking away like I know this story.

[00:47:47] I watched scoop also.

[00:47:49] It's just really well done.

[00:47:52] There's a couple of little moments where Ruth Wilson as this presenter is like someone asked her how it feels to have brought down a royal and she's like, I'm going to make thank you face and you're like, OK, like we do we have to feel sorry for Prince Andrew.

[00:48:09] But that's minimal.

[00:48:11] And it's it's just like very pleasing to look at and the performance by Michael Sheen as Prince Andrew is.

[00:48:20] Like that infuriatingly pitiable.

[00:48:25] Portrayal of this man who knows that he's nobody's first choice for anything.

[00:48:32] And you don't feel sorry for him exactly, but it does sort of explain how everyone got here with that whole situation.

[00:48:39] So very royal scandal.

[00:48:41] I liked all three seasons.

[00:48:42] I thought the first one was extremely strong.

[00:48:44] That was the one with Hugh Grant and this one was that was the divorce one was the second season, right?

[00:48:51] Divorce was to that.

[00:48:53] I like that season.

[00:48:54] That was good too.

[00:48:55] And this one I was like, well, you know, this franchise has been good.

[00:49:01] I'll see it through.

[00:49:02] So yeah, a very royal scandal.

[00:49:03] It has been out for I think a couple weeks now and that's on Amazon Prime.

[00:49:08] Excellent.

[00:49:09] Mari, what do you have to recommend to our listeners?

[00:49:15] So on a completely not true crime related recommendation.

[00:49:21] I am over there.

[00:49:23] I'm watching the anonymous on USA.

[00:49:26] It's on USA and it's on Peacock as well.

[00:49:29] You can find it on Peacock.

[00:49:31] It's a new reality TV show shocker.

[00:49:34] They're coming out with more reality reality TV shows than like I can manage.

[00:49:41] They already they've already announced a destination X, a U.S. version of destination X, which is a French reality TV show, I believe.

[00:49:53] But it's a show called the anonymous.

[00:49:56] It is by the producers of the circle and the traders and it basically is the circle and the traders put together.

[00:50:07] Yes.

[00:50:08] And it's when I first heard of that, I'm like, OK, y'all, this is this is getting out of hand.

[00:50:13] But then when I watched, I was like, well, this is great.

[00:50:17] It's so interesting.

[00:50:19] Like the premise is there's like 12 people living in a house together.

[00:50:24] They're living in the house.

[00:50:25] They're competing together face to face.

[00:50:26] But when it's time for like nominations and when it's time for people to go, they go into these little pods and they go into anonymous mode.

[00:50:36] They pick avatars for themselves like just basic avatars like the shark, the truck, the lipstick, the dice and they talk to each other through this screen.

[00:50:49] And nobody knows who's assigned to which avatar.

[00:50:52] And during that process, it's it's like the nomination process.

[00:50:56] So it's like, oh, I think we should get rid of Robbie.

[00:51:00] And it's like Robbie could be the one saying that like it's so interesting.

[00:51:03] Like I never thought.

[00:51:05] I never thought about the layers of psychology that you could you could get from people anonymously throwing people under the bus because somebody throws somebody on the bus and then they're like, that's me.

[00:51:19] Wait, should I try and defend myself?

[00:51:21] No, because then they'll figure me out.

[00:51:23] Like it's so interesting because after the nomination process, there's a short list of people who are up for nomination.

[00:51:30] And then after that they do a quiz to decide who the anonymous is the main point of the show is to remain anonymous.

[00:51:38] It's it's to make sure that people cannot tell what your avatar is.

[00:51:43] If you remain anonymous, you become the anonymous and you pick from those the short list of people who goes home.

[00:51:49] And it is brilliant. It's something that I truly was like at first I was like, pooh-ing it, but watching it in action has been so fun.

[00:52:00] So I feel like our listeners would like it in a sense of like a like a clue guessing game type thing and and watching social maneuvering and stuff like that.

[00:52:09] It's so fun.

[00:52:10] It really is very fun.

[00:52:12] So go check out, check that out the anonymous on USA Network and Pika.

[00:52:19] It's a good one. I like that one.

[00:52:21] Yeah, it's I came for Nina stayed for this for the game because I thought the game was really interesting.

[00:52:29] You know, it's the idea that you could be eliminated.

[00:52:32] It's only one vote.

[00:52:33] It's only the anonymous that gets to choose.

[00:52:35] So I like that part of it too.

[00:52:38] Sarah, how about you?

[00:52:40] I was at cinema on the weekend.

[00:52:44] I watched Blink twice, which is fantastic.

[00:52:47] I heard talking about Jeffrey Epstein.

[00:52:52] It's Channing Tatum being quite amazing.

[00:52:57] Naomi Aki.

[00:52:58] I don't know her, but she is sensational.

[00:53:01] Allia Shawcat, who always delivers and Christian Slater, who always delivers.

[00:53:06] It's really smart visually interesting.

[00:53:10] It needs to get to the fireworks factory about 10 minutes earlier than it does.

[00:53:15] That would be my only critique of it.

[00:53:18] So Blink twice go and see it.

[00:53:21] And I've got a few things today.

[00:53:23] A couple of podcasts, parts and future guest Sarah Colleen has a new podcast called Who Killed Jennifer Judd?

[00:53:29] And we covered part of this case on Flora Bama Murders with AJ Mas in episode three,

[00:53:35] hidden in Chinchula.

[00:53:37] So but she takes a much deeper dive.

[00:53:40] Obviously she's a cold case investigator, very engaging narrator.

[00:53:44] And I thoroughly recommend this podcast of hers.

[00:53:47] Greater detail, process and focus on the victim.

[00:53:53] Shout out to the other Sarah.

[00:53:55] To the other other Sarah.

[00:53:57] The other Sarah.

[00:53:59] So many of us.

[00:54:00] Many of the many.

[00:54:02] And I also want to recommend a podcast of revelation to me.

[00:54:06] I don't know how I have missed it and never heard of it.

[00:54:08] It's called Affirmative Murder.

[00:54:11] Shout out to Alvin and Fran.

[00:54:14] Come on the podcast.

[00:54:15] Haven't even discussed it with Mary yet.

[00:54:17] Affirmative Murder hosts Alvin Williams and Francel Evans,

[00:54:21] swap murder stories from marginalized communities while going off into rants about

[00:54:26] absolutely anything under the sun.

[00:54:29] It's very entertaining.

[00:54:30] Yes, we struggle with entertaining and murder being in the same sentence,

[00:54:35] but it is possible.

[00:54:37] So I would like to recommend Affirmative Murder.

[00:54:41] At Crime Scene where you get to hear your feedback and suggestions for future episodes.

[00:54:45] Please follow Crime Scene everywhere at Crime Scene Pod.

[00:54:51] That's on Gmail, Twitter, Insta, Facebook, Threads, Blue Sky, everything.

[00:54:55] Except for TikTok.

[00:54:57] We're still crime.seed over on TikTok.

[00:55:01] Find us on CrimeScenePod.com in order to subscribe.

[00:55:05] That would be so helpful.

[00:55:08] Sarah, what do you have going on and where can the people find you?

[00:55:12] Oh gosh.

[00:55:13] Well, I write reviews of all this stuff and more at bestevidence.fi,

[00:55:18] which is my true crime review blog that I write with Eve Beatty.

[00:55:22] We are under the reality blurred eGIS and I recommend that you step over

[00:55:26] and check that out.

[00:55:28] And the true crime bookshop, I will also bring up, it's called The Fifth Eye.

[00:55:32] Just kidding.

[00:55:33] It's not.

[00:55:33] It's called Exhibit B Books.

[00:55:35] You can find that at Exhibit B Books across most social media,

[00:55:40] Blue Sky, Instagram for sure.

[00:55:42] And you listeners are still getting that discount code if you enter XCS15.

[00:55:48] And check out, you get 15% off anything in the store and it's all true crime.

[00:55:54] Yay.

[00:55:56] And Mari, what about you?

[00:55:58] What's going on with you?

[00:55:59] Well, of course every week I'm over on the recap kickback.

[00:56:03] Me and Chappelle are recapping the week.

[00:56:05] The only way that me and Chappelle know how to.

[00:56:08] So we are, we're trying out a new format where we recap the week

[00:56:13] in like entertainment news.

[00:56:15] So what movies have been, have been reported?

[00:56:19] What's going on in entertainment?

[00:56:22] And then if we have a movie of the week,

[00:56:25] we then review the movie of the week.

[00:56:27] So it's really fun over there.

[00:56:28] If you haven't listened to the recap kickback,

[00:56:31] I don't know what you're doing.

[00:56:32] You can go to recapkickback.com in order to subscribe.

[00:56:35] You can also find our very funny YouTube videos on youtube.com

[00:56:39] slash at recap kickback.

[00:56:41] And then we'll be back with another episode of Hollywood Black.

[00:56:41] Last week,

[00:56:42] we finished our series talking about Hollywood black with Latanya

[00:56:45] Stark.

[00:56:46] I need everybody to stop what they're doing.

[00:56:49] Try and find an MGM plus account. I know it's hard.

[00:56:52] I'm sorry, but watch Hollywood black.

[00:56:56] It is a four part series about how black culture and,

[00:57:00] and the Hollywood.

[00:57:02] Or should I say how Hollywood appropriated from black culture

[00:57:06] and how black culture has helped build Hollywood to what it is

[00:57:09] today and how we don't get the same respect for it.

[00:57:13] It's, it's so hard to wrap up what Hollywood black is.

[00:57:17] You have to just go and watch it.

[00:57:18] It is.

[00:57:19] Was it based on the book?

[00:57:21] Yes, it was.

[00:57:22] Oh, okay. Awesome.

[00:57:23] All right.

[00:57:24] MGM plus is I am convinced something that people are just

[00:57:28] making up to speak to Britain.

[00:57:29] Yep.

[00:57:30] But yeah, I will try it because that book was rad.

[00:57:32] It comes with my cable.

[00:57:34] That's the only way I knew I had it. So.

[00:57:37] The book, I might have to buy the book now because the four

[00:57:43] parts.

[00:57:43] Oh, I know a book shop.

[00:57:44] Great.

[00:57:44] I do too.

[00:57:45] And I know, and I know a book code to code.

[00:57:49] Yep.

[00:57:49] It'll be there.

[00:57:51] So I, it was, it was truly amazing.

[00:57:54] And I think they need to show that series in film schools across

[00:57:59] the country, film study classes, high school, graduate level,

[00:58:03] all of those.

[00:58:03] I think it needs to be everywhere because I learned so much

[00:58:07] about how black culture affected Hollywood.

[00:58:10] It's amazing.

[00:58:11] So yeah, go listen to us talk about that if you don't have

[00:58:14] MGM plus and you just want to hear us, hear us talk about how

[00:58:18] great it is.

[00:58:19] But yeah, yeah, and that's, that's it.

[00:58:21] I'm also covering big brother for the rap has a podcast

[00:58:24] network.

[00:58:25] You can follow me on Twitter at Mari talks too much.

[00:58:29] That's too like the number two where apparently I can't

[00:58:32] block people now.

[00:58:34] Weird.

[00:58:36] Yeah, you didn't hear about that.

[00:58:37] That's a Elon.

[00:58:38] Yeah.

[00:58:39] He's about to take, he's about to take the black button away from

[00:58:42] all of us though.

[00:58:43] Well, we can block people, but you'll still see.

[00:58:45] Yeah, but it doesn't do anything.

[00:58:47] It doesn't.

[00:58:48] It's so stupid.

[00:58:49] It's like knocking wood.

[00:58:50] It's like, sure.

[00:58:51] Do it if you want.

[00:58:53] Does it?

[00:58:54] Yeah.

[00:58:56] So I'm over there.

[00:58:57] Honestly, I'm talking nothing but big brother right now.

[00:59:01] I had very fun time over on the big brother stock watch the

[00:59:05] round table this week.

[00:59:07] I am, I will be on the life heat updates this weekend.

[00:59:11] So if you are also a big brother fan and you want to know when

[00:59:15] I'm dipping my toe in definitely go follow me on Twitter.

[00:59:18] Sarah, what do you got going on?

[00:59:20] Well, you can follow me at Sarah Carradine on all the

[00:59:23] things.

[00:59:23] You can find me over on silent podcast international bringing

[00:59:27] you the amazing race Australia celebrity edition two with Annabelle

[00:59:32] Fiddler and Sam Smith and I will be bringing you Dutch courage.

[00:59:36] Yes, we are going back to the beginning and talking about

[00:59:39] Devarada's the original season of the traitors from the Netherlands.

[00:59:44] Watch out for that.

[00:59:46] Murray, what are we watching next week?

[00:59:48] Both Lori and Jenelle requested this.

[00:59:50] Thank you for the ask.

[00:59:52] So next time on crime scene, we are covering into the fire

[00:59:55] the lost daughter with Mary Payne Gilbert.

[00:59:58] You can watch it on Netflix and send us your comments and questions.

[01:00:04] Thanks to Sarah debunting for joining us first.

[01:00:07] She was our first guest talking about unsolved mysteries.

[01:00:10] Here she is.

[01:00:11] And we're going to take her with us into our new adventure.

[01:00:17] Thanks to Will from America for the theme music, tricky

[01:00:23] rise for the graphics and just sterling behind the scenes.

[01:00:27] Until next time.

[01:00:28] Case closed.

[01:00:29] Case closed.