The Cult of Nature Boy | Crime Seen episode 199

[00:00:26] I'm Sarah Carradine, podcasting from unceded Gadigal land. And this is Crime Seen, the true crime review podcast where we get to the heart of how true crime stories are told. Speaking of true crime, there is true crime news. Listeners may have heard that Alec Murdoch's murder convictions and life sentence for the deaths of his wife Margaret and son Paul were overturned on Wednesday in the South Carolina Supreme Court

[00:00:53] because the court clerk at his trial suggested to the jury that he was guilty. This is Becky Hill. She's pleaded guilty to charges of obstruction of justice, perjury and misconduct in office. So she's serving three years of probation along with paying restitution. I'm not sure who she's paying the restitution to, the state for the cost of the trial, I don't know. And also she's going to do community service.

[00:01:21] Jurors have come out and said, we knew he was guilty. Like we didn't need her to tell us. So it's all a bit of a mess. Murray, I don't know if you've ever heard of a rich white man in the South getting away with stuff. It's pretty unusual. Rare. Rare. Rare. Rare. Rare. Rare. Concurrent 40 year federal and 27 year state convictions for his financial crimes. Because you know, you can kill people.

[00:01:51] You can kill a black woman and rip off her two sons of the insurance money. But God forbid you should take somebody's money. You can listen to friends of the pod, Mel Barrett and Rebecca Lavoie on their channel. Something's off. They have a great rundown of the facts there. On the last episode, we watched worst X ever. And should I marry a murderer with Jason Reed. Murray, what are we covering on this episode? We watched the cult of nature boy.

[00:02:19] And joining us today as a first time guest. She's the co host of the podcast black girls talking TV, which I've been very fortunate to be a guest on to talk about survivor. We join any cult led by her. It's Kamaria. Camaria. Welcome to the scene. Camaria. Hey, welcome. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me. You guys are great. And this is like such a great episode to be featured on for the first time.

[00:02:49] So excited to talk with you ladies. Yes. The peak behind the curtain. I came on black girls talking TV. We talk survivor. I said, you know, I have a true crime podcast. And Camaria was like, I love true crime. And I said, Oh, bet. And literally the next day said, Hey, here are some options. I'm holding you to it. Come on my podcast. Yeah. And I was like, definitely this one. This is the option that I choose. Okay.

[00:03:20] And I'm so glad you did. Just like on black girls talking TV. Can you run down your resume for our people really quickly? Oh, my. I look, you're making me sound more fancy than I am. I am a lawyer though. I'm also a pop culture writer, but I haven't been writing lately, which is so interesting. So sometimes I say to Victoria, I was like, should I still be saying I'm a pop culture writer? But like, I have loved to write and I actually have like, you know, other businesses and things like that.

[00:03:48] But black girls talking TV is super fun and I've enjoyed it. And being a lawyer is, is, has been great as well. I'm a legislative attorney. And so not a lawyer that anyone could really use except lobbyists, I guess. But I, I kind of have the fun job of sometimes, you know, kind of coordinating with Congress. So, so fun. Yes. And Kamaria, as a first time guest, we have to ask you just like we ask all of our first time guests.

[00:04:18] What's your true crime origin story? Like what got you into true crime? What is your favorite true crime property? Oh yeah. No investigation discovery back in the day. Uh, like that was just the beginning. I was in high school watching and I was like, why? Why do I love this so much? It is crazy. I continued it all through college and law school. I kind of gave it up right after law school, but the, all the forensic files, all the cold case,

[00:04:47] like it, it, it has, I've just watched it forever, but I gave it up for a little bit. Cause I was like, I, I shouldn't be watching. And then I was like, no, I think, I think it's, you know, it's okay. It's okay. I had to like coach myself back, but I, you know, I've loved it. Um, and, but I like, I told you, I like make sure that it's solved.

[00:05:09] Like, I don't like an unsolved, but even when I was a child though, now that I think about it, unsolved mysteries, I did watch it, but they would solve some of those crimes sometimes. I don't know, but yeah, no. Sarah, that's how we connected. Cause she said, I can't do anything unsolved. And I said, girl, you have no idea. I'd be on this podcast, like mad as hell. And when me and Sarah watch something that's unsolved, I can live in uncertainty.

[00:05:37] Maureen, no, no, no, no, no. Must be solved. Must be finished. Yeah. She's from science. You know, science likes to finish things. Um, but Kumari, have you been following this latest outrage in the Alex Myrtle case? Yeah, I was really shocked. Like I was so, so shocked. I'm not following it closely, but I saw the headline and I was like this, these little technicalities cause this is how OJ got off. Okay.

[00:06:05] The technicalities, people trying to push it and make sure that this person is convicted. You start bringing in like the, the, the problem, you know what I'm saying? Just let the evidence, let the evidence speak for itself instead of trying to push it in a direction. But I, you know, it's not, not this specific thing was what would happen with OJ, but you know, I do believe that they, they planted something there, but you know, he didn't, but it's just the jury couldn't buy it.

[00:06:34] You know, that if you, if you might plan it one thing, you plan it everything. And so with here, it's more of a technicality in the legal system, you know, because she broke the law. So yeah. Yeah. I know. And, and even if those jurors say that nothing that she did swayed them, it's still against the law, you know? Yeah. And it's just like, yeah, of course. Okay. And again, all of it is, it's just a fancy excuse to let that, that man out. So off on those charges.

[00:07:05] So unfortunate. I was shocked. My mouth was on the floor. Yeah. At this point, it's just kind of like, so I saw the comment, somebody in the comments of this, of an article said, Oh my God, now my wife is going to make me watch more documentaries on this game. Exactly. But let's get to this crime. Cause this is a doozy. Can't wait to hear your thoughts, Kamaria.

[00:07:32] So beginning in 2016, Elijah Bishop, known as Nature Boy, used social media platforms to attract young people searching for spiritual healing and a rejection of modern societal trauma. He marketed his community, particularly to black people as a real life back to nature, black utopia first called Melanation, then Carbonation. Which is so weird.

[00:07:59] Anyway, he encouraged recruits to abandon their families, leave their jobs, turn over their finances to join him in paradise and places like Costa Rica, Mexico, Belize, a whole bunch of tropical places. Once followers were isolated in the jungle, Bishop's teaching shifted from alternative wellness focused lifestyle into an abusive, tightly controlled environment.

[00:08:26] He declared himself a Messiah and King and subjected his followers to psychological manipulation, physical abuse, and sexual violence. The group documented their lives online, gathering followers and soliciting donations. The cult unraveled when former members managed to escape and share their horrifying stories. With the help of internet sleuths and investigative journalists, law enforcement was able to intervene.

[00:08:53] In March 2024, Elijah Bishop was convicted of multiple charges, including rape, false imprisonment, and charges related to revenge porn. He was sentenced to life in prison plus 10 years. Okay, so a very thick docuseries here. Four episodes on Hulu. Kumaria, again, this is one of the properties I proposed to you.

[00:09:21] Can we get your overall thoughts of the documentary? And what made you pick this one? Wow. Yeah. Overall, I was just shocked. I'd never heard of this at all. Like, I'd never heard of Nature Boy, like, at all. And it just was completely shocking to me. So like, and I almost, when I was watching, I told Victoria, I co-host Black Girls Talking TV with a psychologist.

[00:09:48] And I said, you might have been the better person for this because I need to understand psychologically how this happened. How did these people continue to follow him? And so, look, I don't want to sell myself short. I got a little legal expertise. But this was shocking to me in the way that these individuals were like willingly seeing violence.

[00:10:16] And somehow one of the cult members spoke about how it was, they didn't really have bonds with each other as much as they did with the cult leader. Yep. So that, I guess, explains it a little bit. But I'm like, how did that happen? As opposed to like, you're with these folks every day. So overall, I just, I shocked, shocked, shocked, shocked.

[00:10:42] Why I picked it is that I also, I kind of have grown up in a sort of very, I guess, African-centered household. Like my name is African, Kamari Swahili. It means like the moon. Like I have, I love like wearing like natural hair and like, I love African, you know, garments and things like that. And so I'm like, this feels like what is happening?

[00:11:09] Like it feels like a twist in terms of, of like, I've never experienced anything like this. But this, these people look in some way like they could be someone that I would see growing up or be around. So I was very fascinated by how you could have just such a split in how people maybe take a, a thing like wanting to be close to nature or whatever, and just go two opposite directions with it.

[00:11:39] So that's what kind of intrigued me. Yeah. Because my mother is a tree hugger. And I mean like a literal tree hugger, like out in the front yard, she will hug the big oak tree. So it's, this is, this was a very like, wow. So yeah. Mm hmm. Oh my gosh. We have so much in common. It's so funny. But we, I, we told Victoria, she, but Victoria isn't into true crime, right? Into crime, yeah. True, true, true. She, she, she, yeah.

[00:12:08] But maybe, I wish we could have, we could have roped her in on this one. Cause I agree. She, I think she would have, she would have really been helpful here. Yeah. Sarah, we have seen, we've covered a lot of cult documentaries. Mm hmm. And what, what Kamari said, it, it, we've seen it often. That is, that is often the, um, one of the main tactics. Yes, you're in a cult, but everybody is dependent on the leader, not each other.

[00:12:35] What was your overall thoughts of seeing this cult, which is just a little bit different than some of the ones we covered before? Mm hmm. Yes. Well, you know, my keeping go cards, everybody, nobody joins a cult. We've said this so many times. Mm hmm. And so when you're watching these documentaries, I don't, I don't need to lecture you all, you're all smart. You have to imagine that when they join, it's not what we see at the end. Right. So these were also very young people, very young people.

[00:13:06] Mm hmm. And they say themselves, I mean, they up sticks, got a bag, left America forever. Mm hmm. And they go to this, what looks like paradise in the, in the video. So if you think when you get there, oh, something's not quite right. You look around you, everybody else seems to think it's okay. So you think it's okay.

[00:13:28] What is intriguing to me is these cult leaders, did they all get the manual? I mean, it's cult leader 101. How did they learn from looking at other people? Or is it something innate in their psychology? And this is what we need somebody to tell us that understands, or there's a cunning, like

[00:13:51] a very base cunning where they know how to manipulate people without ever being told it, that they understand, that they have an ability to read people. It's like our coercive controllers that we talk about. It's not that they can control everybody. It's if they, if the person that they're attempting to influence doesn't respond, they'll just move on to someone else. And it's the same with these young people.

[00:14:21] We mustn't forget that they, first they followed, then they clicked like on the videos, then they might reach out and message. Then there's having a relationship via the internet, a friendship or a relationship via the internet. Then they have voice messages and then they are face to face on the video, and then they actually go and meet them. So it's not going from one state to the other without any transition. I thought this was absolutely fascinating.

[00:14:51] I have some serious reservations about the production itself, but the topic was just absolutely riveting. What about you, Mari? What did you think? Yes, all of the above. This is me trying to wrap all of my thoughts around to coherently guide us through this conversation because I just have so many questions. They need more answers.

[00:15:16] But like, overall, it was just so fascinating to see, like Kamaria says, how it starts one way, and then it just unravels another way. We've seen this so many times in the cult documentary that we've covered, Sarah, and I am on record from saying, why do cults, why can't you just stop right here? Like, stop, stop here. Stop at the wellness.

[00:15:46] Stop at the eating fruits and being with nature. But no, we never stop there. We always end up at multiple wives and sexual abuse every single time. How do we get here, man? And so, and I can't even say, oh, two Americas. I can't say that. I can't say this. Dear listener, if you don't know, this is a cult comprised of mostly black people.

[00:16:13] And as we stated, it was originally supposed to elevate black people specifically. He did. He does end up widening the net. As we see more, more people who aren't just black join, but it's a cult of black people. I haven't heard of it. Kamaria didn't hear of it.

[00:16:33] So now I'm like, okay, there's two internets because it was, I was, I was shocked to hear all of this stuff and to hear that this had started happening way back as early as 2017, 2016. You know what I'm saying? And just got resolved two years ago in 2024. I was like, what? What did I miss?

[00:16:57] And because of that, once, once our discussion is done about this property, I'll talk about some other stuff that I did. Cause I had to do my gooks. I had to do my side gooks and a little bit more research. So I did find some sources that did help fill in a little bit of the gaps that I had and questions from this docu-series, but let's, let's get into it. So we, of course, this is going to be again, a lot because I think the content is so interesting.

[00:17:26] Like the subject is so interesting, interesting, but like Sarah said, the production is also kind of, it's like two different things. So let's start off with episode one. I'm not going to go episode by episode, but I do want to highlight episode one because I thought it was very good and kind of like setting the tone of what we're getting into. Sarah, like you said, people don't join a cult thinking it's a cult.

[00:17:51] And I thought this episode one where we're seeing the early videos of Elijah, AKA Nature Boy, and it is this woo-woo tree hugger thing. I was like, okay, I can see this. What was your thoughts on the opening, the beginning, our introduction to the cult, Sarah?

[00:18:10] Well, what I thought was really interesting here, and I liked that at this point I had no problems with the production because they specifically focused on his thoughts about race, racism in America. Black people in America are not safe. Black people are being killed and oppressed and held down, and we don't want to do that anymore. We are not going to stay and fight. We're going to remove ourselves. And I thought, wow, okay, let's just get there.

[00:18:40] The introduction to the women here, I had a little trouble with timelines. Because we meet them now, and then when we go back to the videos, it's shocking how young they are. So I had to keep reminding myself because now they're grown and they've had time to think through and are able to speak.

[00:19:01] When you see them in the videos, they are these young girls looking up, literally looking up at the men, at the man, and being led by them. And I just, I feel sick in my stomach when I think about it. And so starting with the women was super important to me because they are going to lead us through.

[00:19:24] But showing his passionate, justice-seeking, social justice, racial justice-seeking pitch, shall we call it, you can see why the men were drawn in. Exactly. Kamaria did that first introduction. That sounded great, right? They're showing us clips, which I don't know if I appreciate it.

[00:19:47] They were showing us clips of police brutality and violence in this documentary, which I was like, I don't think I needed to see this. Yeah. But they're corresponding it with his original message. Did you think production did that well? Yeah, no, I totally agree. Had the exact same thought about the triggering nature of watching the videos. I was not a fan of that, including that. Not at all. Because I think we get it. We get it. We get it.

[00:20:17] Yeah. So I didn't feel it needed to be hammered home that much because I just had to look away at times because it was very, very, very triggering. Yeah. Um, but overall, I do agree that, that they did lay the spell out, have the story start very well, basically. Mm-hmm. They, they started the story very, very well.

[00:20:41] Um, and I personally was just looking at these women and thinking like, wow, I felt, I felt so afraid for them because I knew what was already going to happen. And they were, I could see the innocence in their, their, their eyes. I could see the innocence in their tone and what they were thinking about, um, what they thought they'd found, you know? And so that was kind of difficult to watch.

[00:21:07] But I think that the beginning, you have to see the beginning as to like, what was the promised land that they thought they were getting? Otherwise you don't see how they got to the end. You have to see what, what was the initial draw and what was the initial pull. And like I said, in the intro, you know, I've been in spaces where there's always like, let's get back to nature. Let's, let's make sure that we are affirming ourselves.

[00:21:33] It's like black people, black women, and make sure that we're giving each other love. And it seemed like they were trying to do that, you know? And so I'm like, wow, this is not where we end up. And so, you know, I think telling the opening story was necessary. Necessary. Yeah. I completely agree.

[00:21:56] Speaking of the women, Sarah, Velvet is, of course, she's basically, I would say, the main narrator, one of the main narrators throughout the series, the four episodes, which we'll talk about. Um, and just from where she was going, I was like, oh, yeah, like my, I said, I was like, oh, like my arms are like a hair was standing up. But even, even with me thinking I might know where it was going.

[00:22:26] Once we got there, I was like, holy crap. I did not see that coming type thing. I thought Velvet was a very good talking head. I did at times wonder about her cadence. Uh, Kamaria, did you realize she was really, she was like, um, like she kept saying a lot of really big words. Did you notice that? Was I the only one who noticed that? Like, the way she was talking was very interesting to me.

[00:22:52] It was like, she used lots of very, very big words. And quite often, I don't know if the word would just, would quite fit what her meaning was. Um, but it was very, very interesting. Um, I'm like, I'm like, what am I? Because a point that this documentary, I don't know, really hammers on.

[00:23:17] And probably one of the reasons why, uh, both me and Kamaria were not familiar with this is there is a segment of the black population that not effectually known as like hoteps or hotepstresses. Uh, where it's, it's a manipulation of black liberation. It's, um, rejecting of normal science. It's, it's, it's kind of a skewing of black unity.

[00:23:44] And this group has that underlying, that underlying thought process. It's just this documentary didn't really bring that to light. And I think it's because the documentarians themselves probably don't understand the nuances within the black community to really address it. And that's why it was stuff like the over articulation of velvet. Um, we do meet Aaron.

[00:24:09] Aaron is one, another one of the biggest talking heads and him walking us through how as a man, he can sit there and watch the abuse of the women play out. And how he bought into all of the teachings. It was a very interesting, it was, it was such a, it was, it was very interesting how it was put on the camera to me again.

[00:24:37] So I I'm just trying to say, did you notice what I'm saying? Like, it felt like there was a little bit of the culture that was missing from this docu-series.

[00:24:46] I will say that what I saw in her was kind of typical for maybe, I don't want to say inner city, but like, like when there's a poverty, you're coming out of some level of poverty in the black community.

[00:25:08] I feel like I could see something in her in terms of what she was, she's reaching for something better, but kind of limited by her circumstances financially or whatever. So I, I, I hear what you're saying about the, the, the words and things like that. It didn't strike me as much watching it. I think just because I was like, okay, yeah, this is, this is, she's someone who's, you know, she made it out the mud. You know what I mean? Like what she's trying to do.

[00:25:38] The thing I will say that from a production standpoint that I was a little unclear of, I don't think it happened as much in the first episode, but was the timing of the interviews. Because sometimes I would see her with longer hair, shorter hair, different things. So I was wondering overall, just what was the timing of each, you know, it would have been nice if they gave us, I was like, I don't know which one is the older her, the younger her, but she literally had longer hair and shorter hair.

[00:26:08] And so did Janae. And so they both had these different hairstyles and it was the short hair on velvet. And then the longer that I'm like, I know we can make some things happen, but I don't think that was that. I think these were shot in different years. You know what I mean? Cause she had very short hair and then she had like longer hair, longer braids or something goddess twist or something wrapped into her wrap.

[00:26:34] So I, I was unclear about that, but I do think that, like you said, there is a, there's an element to the black community. There's that, the hoteps, there's the, you know, just culturally conscious. There's, there's, you know, you have your, your, your black people are not, not a monolith. And so there's so many segments of our population and maybe it was in an attempt to not to, to give them a legitimate, like, this is how they started.

[00:27:03] It's not a hotep. It's a, they want peace, love and harmony type of vibe in the beginning as to why they may not have introduced that. But, but yeah, it's, it's, it's interesting. It's a lot. Yeah. It's, it's. And again, I'm used to this. I'm used to watching these documentaries and really breaking them down.

[00:27:24] So, uh, sorry if I just threw that, that, that wrench there at you, but it, it is in a, from a production standpoint, I do think it is missing. I'm wondering who produced this here. I don't know if we had it in the notes because I, I don't necessarily get that, uh, maybe a, a black producer or director, uh, produces. And that's fine. It's okay.

[00:27:47] I'm not saying it's not, but it, it, it just from, and this could just be from my further research that I was like, there's a lot of stuff that was not really touched on. So I think we've established that the first episode did a really good job of establishing the group, establishing, establishing the timeline and stuff like that for the story, the story at large, not for the talking heads.

[00:28:14] Because also Velvet was pregnant in, in, at one point and not, it was, it was weird. That is the strongest evidence besides, besides the hair, that baby growing was the strongest evidence of a time jump. And, um, so, but Sarah, where we get to probably my biggest thoughts of the failure of the production is episodes two and three, because.

[00:28:42] My thoughts kind of are two and three were the weaker episodes and I kind of felt like they could have put them together. Um, your, are your thoughts aligned with mine or, or no? Wow. Yeah. I think this first episode, um, I mean, it was so interesting. I thought it was well done. I knew where I was. I felt great. Like I don't need to have my hand held exactly, but do tell me where we are in time.

[00:29:07] It was only when we got to the fourth episode that I realized they started making it before he was convicted. But let us in on that, you know, let us in on that. So I felt right through. No, no, no. You really just blew my mind. Cause you're right. Because now we have the different interviews. Oh my God. Sorry, Sarah. Go, go, go, go, go. No, no, no, no. That's, this is what we're here for.

[00:29:31] So it may be that this group did traipse from pillar to post. I think they did. They went here, they went there, then they went there, then they went there. You don't have to tell me all of that documentary filmmakers. You don't have to, or give me a map, an old fashioned map with the dotted line showing me where they are. You don't have to do any of that. What is the guts of this cult? How did it come about? What was attractive to the people originally?

[00:30:02] What was the horror that they found? And what was the resolution? I don't need A, B, C, D, E. You can do A, B. Then you can go to D. And I think episode two and three were interminable, even though they were the same length of time. They were all the same length. They were all around 40 minutes. But it was interminable. And I didn't get any more than I had. And they kept doing this thing of, well, it was like this, but we had no idea how bad it was going to get.

[00:30:32] And then that's it. And you don't find out. And then somebody else goes, but it was never. We didn't think it was going to go to there. Where? Where is it going to go to? So I think that there was a lack of weaving together of the talking heads. The best documentaries that we watched with either multiple or a few talking heads. We saw this in Sky King where they passed the story. The editors passed the story from talking head to talking head. So it was a cohesive narrative told in many voices.

[00:31:03] And I don't think we had this here. It was like one voice, then a different voice, then a different voice. All of them to be listened to. All of them to be heard. But where is the overarching narrative drive, I think, of the documentary is how I would say it. And I'm not even saying get to the good stuff. But you know what? Let's get to the fireworks factory. Yeah, that's a great point. Yeah. The only thing I can think of is they try to let each person tell their story. But it just...

[00:31:34] Everybody had a different perspective. You know what I'm saying? Like, which... Like, when Kendra comes along in around the second episode, and we hear her talking in her perspective, but also seeing, like, the archival footage of, like, she's kind of the main person who... He's like, slap that girl. And it's Kendra slapping somebody. And it's like... It's rough, man. It's really rough. Aaron, too. Like, I was like, ooh. Aaron...

[00:31:58] I think Aaron just did a good job of putting himself back in the place where he was. Because the way he was... The things he was talking about and the way he was presenting how the cult was, I was like, ooh, sir, you were in deep. And it sounded like he was, like, kind of defending me, like, at some points. But again, I think he was doing it from a place... Or the only reason why I can think of it is he was doing it from a place from healing.

[00:32:28] But now that Sarah mentions it, I'm wondering, Sarah, if, like you said, it does seem like they started making this documentary before his conviction. So maybe they made episodes one, two, and three, thought they were going to put it out sooner, and then made episode four, tacked it on once they got past the trial or something. Because Aaron in episode four,

[00:32:54] where he actually testifies against Nature Boy, now that you really mention it, does feel a little bit more healed than the Aaron's that we were getting in episodes one, two, and three. So, that's now making me really think about, again, like Kamari said, some of these different sightings of the different followers, you know? And it would have been really nice to know when the different interviews take place. It does.

[00:33:23] It takes two seconds. It takes... We've seen it before in a documentary. Velvet 2022. You know? Velvet 2020. Just 2024. And a little Chiron on the side. Like, it does not need to be a whole big thing. You just show it to us once, so that we know it's a different timeline. I don't know. Production kind of flopped there, if what you're really saying is true, Sarah. One thing, before we move on to the fourth episode

[00:33:53] and kind of wrap this up a little bit, I did forget to mention, the documentary did carve out time to talk about the white girl from Canada who joined. I've done quite a lot of time for Miss Kayla. It's like, you can't even have your own cult documentary. White people, get out! Get out of the way! Oh my God. But the documentary didn't even make the point of Kayla joins the cult

[00:34:22] and Interpol is alerted, but Kendra joins the cult, Velvet joins the cult, these girls disappear and nobody says anything. Maybe that's true, maybe it's not, but you can't leave it. You can't just drop it in and then not comment on it. Kamaria, what do you think about that side of it? Yeah, no. Immediately when the story became all over the news, as soon as her parents reported her missing,

[00:34:51] I was just like, wow, this is just a classic tale of like a white woman gets this attention. I think also what may be at play with some of it is that maybe across racial lines, there may be sort of this concern. I think part of it is also the sense that her family in Canada, you know, as like a white family, Canadian family,

[00:35:21] they see this cult. they don't know anything. They may not be, they may not interact with black people that much. And so it's just like a black box of like alert, alert, alarm. Right. And I think that when black people see like, oh, maybe a cousin or whoever has gone with these other black people who wear dashikis and things like that, it's not as much alarm, you know what I mean? Because it's like, all right, we've seen you before, you're harmless or whatever.

[00:35:50] But I think that that alarm in her family came probably from a place of unknown. I don't even think it was like, oh, this is a cult, cult, cult. It's like this, what is this? You know, what is this? It's very, very unknown. And yeah, it is a cult, but I think the unknown factor probably was more than anything what alarmed them. But it is interesting. It is very interesting. That's the thing. I think they did have to include it in there because it's the

[00:36:19] thing that got them a little bit more attention and it makes sense, but it's still kind of like, what, why is this always the story? Cause I think it just, it allowed us to see that this is essentially what gets their spot blown up. You know, they, they, they're getting, they have a little bit more attention, a little bit more eyes on them. Um, and it's just unfortunate. It is a mirror of what we see that, you know,

[00:36:49] sometimes some of these serial killers are killing, you know, a certain segment of women, but then when it becomes a quote unquote, you know, nice middle class white girl, that tension gets placed on them, but they've been either killing like women of color or killing, you know, uh, sex workers or whoever they've been killing these marginalized communities already, but it's, it's, I guess getting the wrong one that gets them in, in trouble. Yeah. I mean, we, we,

[00:37:18] we watched a documentary called my, my killer father, which we'll drop an episode of in a couple of weeks. And one of the sisters who doesn't think her father was a killer says, Oh, well, I mean, if 30 or 40 women went missing, someone would notice and marry you and I both went, no sex workers. No, they wouldn't notice. And that's the whole point. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's sorry. That's not your, that was not your point, but, but that's what you made me think. Yeah. I think that's really, that's, that,

[00:37:48] that's really opened my mind. Kamaria more. Maybe I would have liked Chantel, who's a little bit of a narrator. She's the internet detective. I could have done perhaps with a little more perspective from her, but I think she had a tough job because she had to, it seemed like she was restraining her rage. And I thought Chantel let it out. Let it out. I know you're angry. Let it out. Yes, they did use internet detectives here, which was,

[00:38:17] I'm not going to lie. It was kind of funny every time they put Chantel internet. It's not a job. It's not a job. It's funny. Which, okay. Sure. But I think the real meat and potatoes before the conviction in episode four is we get the unraveling of the abuse of Velvet, Velvet, also known as EJ, also known as Elian, right? Queen, chief dress, Eliana.

[00:38:46] Velvet, who we meet literally at the beginning, tells us about how she, she goes there. She's actually quote unquote married because these cults love these forced marriages to another member. Once they break up, mostly due to Nature Boy's prying, Nature Boy convinces her to be his queen and his chiefest and to have a higher stature among the members of the cult. But it ultimately, ultimately,

[00:39:14] it ultimately leads to her being basically the target of his abuse, at least from what this docuseries presents. Even when she's pregnant with his baby, even after she has his baby, she is physically abused behind the scenes, starts off behind the scenes, then comes in front of the cult. The cult knows about it. Then it gets to the point where he's abusing her on camera, on live with thousands of people watching.

[00:39:45] And it's, it's really terrifying, Kamaria. Like watching these videos for me were just horrible. Watching her clutch her baby, hold her baby to her, thinking that her holding her baby will help the abuse to stop. Yes. And just watching this, I felt horrible. What were your thoughts? Oh, yeah. Yeah. I, I, I, I, I, that's when you know that this is on a different level.

[00:40:13] When you are willing to abuse, like a woman, not, you know, with her child in her hands, you just don't care about anybody. You don't care about the babies. You don't care about, you know, other human beings. Like you, like a baby, like his level of extreme, I don't even know what it is. That's when Victoria would be great to, to, to diagnose or do something. I don't know. Because narcissism is coming to mind. But at,

[00:40:42] at just lack of empathy, it's extreme. It was extreme. And the live streaming was what shocked me. Like shocked me, shocked me that people were seeing this. And this wasn't immediately being stopped. Some authorities, some, some force, police force knocking on the door. I know it's international and I, that complicates it, you know, but there were time periods when they came back. I couldn't follow. They came back to the U S they're in Atlanta.

[00:41:11] I was like, yeah, and when you spoke about Aaron earlier and just how he, he felt like he was defending it. It, to me, it felt like he was being very honest about the, where he was in that state. And that's what I mean. He was able to transport back to those. Yeah.

[00:41:40] But I was just. Mind blown as to how he could defend it. Even then. And it kind of just made me think of like red pill content and like, just this rabbit hole of like how we can think an adult could be disciplining another adult. And I'm using air quotes, you know what I mean? So all of it was just a thousand percent shocking to me. I was watching this entire documentary with my mouth on the floor.

[00:42:10] I just couldn't believe that other people saw this. This was broadcast live. Other people participated. Other people participated. They had the women. Yeah. Jumping each other. Yeah. And to your point, you were, you said, why don't you get them? I mean, most of the crimes up until the major one, like stuff like when they're in Costa Rica and they're like, we just need to stamp your passports. And he's like, no,

[00:42:39] we will die on this bus. You're not stamp. It's like, what are you doing, sir? It's like, you're inviting trouble. It's, it's again, narcissism, cult leader. One-on-one. You invite that persecution. You, you make people see like, Hey, they're persecuting me. You make yourself a martyr, but all of the problems that he had up until the big problems were self-inflicted, like going to Hawaii during COVID. Hawaii did not play about COVID restrictions. So as soon as they said this, I was like, Oh, I know where this is going. Um, and they, they violated,

[00:43:09] uh, COVID restrictions. They're the ones who put themselves in that predicament for Hawaii to then, you know, send them back to the mainland and all of this, like they're coming for us. They're going, you just had to comply and they wouldn't have came for you. But Sarah, all of that aside, all those stupid, stupid petty crimes and, and forced persecution aside. Once again, once they get to Atlanta, that's when all hell breaks loose.

[00:43:37] And we finally are introduced to, to Janae and essentially what will put him behind bars. This woman is incredible. I mean, they all are, they all are not putting one above another. We see her briefly in the first episode and then we lose her. Then we, then episode four is really her episode. I mean, it was just a little side thing. What you were saying before about people's different perspective. That's another way to do it.

[00:44:05] Let someone tell their whole story. Now let another person tell their whole story. That's another way to do it. And it would have been very illuminating. I mean, Aaron, for example, says that when he saw velvet being struck, he thought, Oh, she must've been disappeared. Yes. That red pill stuff, Kamara, you're absolutely right. That men's right stuff comes in there as well. But Janae is a figure of,

[00:44:32] it's almost Shakespearean tragedy that she goes with such an open heart, that she goes with such a, a fierce idea of uplifting her culture, uplifting her people, uplifting herself, women, black people. And the way he took that and crushed it, not just her, but her. And we see it. And because of the live streamers that these, for some reason, these cults love,

[00:45:01] and even before social media, cults loved filming themselves. They love it. Go back to Jim Jones, go back to all those people. So she brings the charge forward. This is a very difficult thing to do. And I, I thought, why are we only meeting her now? Why are we only, why did we spend two episodes traipsing through the jungle saying more, but the worst thing was yet to come? And then not doing it.

[00:45:32] I could have done with more of her. What did you think, Kamara? Did you get enough of her to, to follow, to catch onto her, her thoughts? No, I agree. I think she, I think personally, they could have introduced everyone in the beginning, like flash, flash, flash. Like they introduced Aaron, they introduced velvet. And I think, like you said, we thought, we saw a little bit of her, Janae, but if they had introduced everyone, because there was another guy, I can't remember his name who.

[00:46:02] Solar, maybe. Solar. Is that his name? Yeah. Yeah. He just came in the end. I'm just like, bring the people in the beginning, give us a flash of all of these victims, these participants, because it's like, sometimes they're, they're both, you know, especially on the male side, but it's give us, give us them early. Right. I did feel like the,

[00:46:28] the storyline with Janae was so important that they could have had a through line because the only person who really had from beginning to end, start to finish a hand in every episode was velvet. And I feel like they could have put everyone in there throughout. I mean, Aaron was in there too, but it was velvet story to tell. It felt like it almost felt like they started this documentary telling this story through velvet and then decided to add on other people as they got more interviews.

[00:46:57] And so I agree. I think that if they had just a more fluid way of telling the story and a more well-rounded approach to each, each episode, that would have been, would have been nice to see. Yeah. Yeah. I would say the fourth episode is what it's back to basics. It's what we, I think it really worked for us, Sarah. It's the courtroom stuff. It's, we see Aaron, Kendra, we hear velvet.

[00:47:27] We hear them, uh, testifying against nature boy. We see nature boy locked up. We see some of nature boys followers, like still, um, his current followers on the step. I know, right? Because prison does not stop cult leaders. We found this out. Um, we were just, we were just talking about the FLDS cult not too long ago. So he still has some followers, uh, but it's, it's more straightforward,

[00:47:56] more courtroom setting. Did you find this interesting, Sarah? Yeah. Yeah. I wish the skillfulness with which they put episode four together had been present in the previous episodes. It's like the organizing principle for like, I'm repeating myself now, but episode four is episode one and episode four are really good, but you need two and three for the story. They just didn't tell it very well is in my opinion.

[00:48:20] They explained that they could testify without being seen. Fantastic. Uh, the idea of how do you tell law enforcement about revenge porn? How do you make them understand that it is a violation and that it is a crime because it, in this case, and I'm sorry to say this, but the video that he had was him raping her,

[00:48:49] but it can also be revenge porn when the video that they have a view is consensual sex, but you don't consent to that then being shown to people. And I think that, you know, we see again and again, the reluctance of law enforcement to accept the word of the person who's been abused by a man generally. And how they are so woefully ignorant and need education on these matters. In my opinion.

[00:49:19] Yeah. I do think that the charges, like, so even they point out that when, um, Janae is telling her story and that she herself doesn't necessarily use the word rape, but, um, Kamaria, I feel like the victim doesn't need to say the word. If it, what she's describing is in the charge, they can charge rape. Right. Absolutely. And like,

[00:49:46] also the difficulty around it in the sense that like, this is not just an isolated rape. It is a rape that happens in within a cult. And so the cult is the mind control piece of it. So whether she, whatever she calls it, there's some indoctrination going on. And like, even for me, like I've had a situation that was a textbook rape situation. And because it was not violent,

[00:50:14] I still to this day have difficulty calling it. I always call it a rapey situation. It was a rapey, like, and my friend had to say, no, this, that was rape, you know? And so I think that, and you don't want to like get anyone into it. You don't want to, I think that's indoctrinating us as women. And like, especially when the person is not like a, you know, weirdo in behind the bushes, but you know,

[00:50:43] this guy was a weirdo in live streaming, you know, but either way, it's like, they don't, they, that's not what they saw. They, they see this person that is like another black man. We don't want to, you know, put him into the system or deal with. And, and so all of those pressures, I think as a woman weigh on you. And I think that when people get caught up in that terminology, it's like, you're missing the point. You're missing the point.

[00:51:11] Like you really have to understand that there's two things going on. One, the right, and her mind is being, is she's brainwashed in a way. And so she can't even call it that. And so like, I like, yeah, she can't even. She did express it. So, and, and, and like I said, normal, like everyday situations that may result in like, there's an actual crime happening and I'm not in a cult, but you're having difficulty because you have those societal pressures. And within the black community,

[00:51:39] there's also that we're not trying to perpetuate another black man going to jail. We, you know, he's a professional or he's a, this or whatever. It's like those layers of, of things that you don't, you don't particularly see it for what it is. And so, yeah, what she called it. It's a level of protection. Yeah. Like you're trying to protect yourself. Like it's, it's, it's a level of protection. We,

[00:52:07] we talk about that soon in one of our recordings about things that we do to protect ourselves from very hard truths, you know? And so the fact that I, I think more or less, cause I think even she said that she hated the situation, but she was able to get out and go. And it wasn't until somebody reached back out to her and said, Hey,

[00:52:33] he recorded that and he put it on the internet that that's when she really like, you know, pursued charges. You know, it was that revenge porn aspect. I think that initially got her through the door. And when she told her story, they're like, well, girl, that's, that's rape and false imprisonment. Cause he would not let you go. You know? Yeah. So, yeah. I think that there's the, I mean, what you're saying, Maria is so true. And I, especially before our sort of awakening,

[00:53:02] certainly in the seventies and eighties stuff that we would up with, don't think of, didn't think of, it certainly wasn't called sexual assault. Sometimes you just would have sex out of politeness. Cause you think, Oh, well, I'm here now, you know, and I'm not, you know, that idea that one can say no at any time is very new. I mean, one could always have said no, but, and so to name it is really difficult because you have to have a certain, then thought about yourself.

[00:53:31] But what happened with Janae that was, that was so interesting. And we see again and again, he wouldn't let her go. She wanted to leave. He wouldn't let her go. He said, have sex with me again. And she thinks, well, okay, I'll have sex with him again and then I can go. So to law enforcement, they said, well, then it's consensual. You consented to have sex with him. And as a woman, any woman hearing this will go,

[00:54:01] Oh my God, you have no idea. You have no idea. And so that's why the false imprisonment part of it is so powerful. But you're right, Murray, had he not put that video on the internet, I don't know that Janae would have pursued charges. I know because she, it happened. And she had sex with him while he's asleep. I think she said she, she left like that, like she was able to escape and, you know, it, it, it's unfortunate,

[00:54:30] but she's so brave. And I'm so glad that she was able to come forward with those charges. And, you know, he, he got the term he deserved. I'm sorry because, uh, uh, dear listeners, we're about to wrap this up. So I can't even explain all of the horrific stuff that was in this documentary that he did. Please go watch it. We didn't even cover the tip of the iceberg. We say that every time, but there's truly is a lot, um, going on. And before we get to our, I'll have you guys,

[00:55:00] your overall thoughts, give, give me your overall thoughts during your ratings. But until we get there, and I just want to share a little bit of, again, a little bit of the side research I did. It's kind of funny because I'm sitting here thinking this documentary should have been three episodes, but I'm about to suggest you go to YouTube and watch a YouTube docuseries about nature boy. That's 46 parts. Oh my, I've heard about the YouTube version and people say it's better.

[00:55:29] I have heard that. It is better. 46 parts. How long is each part? About 20, 30 minutes. So I'm, I was cleaning today. I was cleaning today and I got through like a third or a fourth of it. And it was really interesting. Maybe that solves the problem of this production. Maybe it does need to be longer. Well, so that's the thing. Like there are so many things that was not included in this that I was just like,

[00:55:59] well, okay. Like a woman died in the early, like before 2018, a woman had went to visit him, started with the diet and ended up dying. What? That is so shocking. Um, again, what I was kind of referencing, this is all, um, rooted in, uh, Dr. Sebi's teachings. Um, Kamari. Yeah. He started out as kind of like a follower of Dr.

[00:56:28] Sebi's teachings and then made his own teachings out of that. And he actually got a lot of followers from being redirected from like people who were interested in, in Dr. Sebi teachings, finding him. Yes. I think I wish y'all could see Kamari. Yeah, no. Tell me who Dr. Sebi is. Who's Dr. Sebi? Like, I mean, I have mixed thoughts because like,

[00:56:58] I'm a very like natural girl. Like I, I really am. I'm like big pharma's out to get us all. Yes. I'm, I'm very natural in how I operate. He, if you know, TLC, uh, Lisa left eye lobes, was she, what did, was she in Honduras? Like she was kind of like, uh, she kind of died out there. Wasn't it? Yeah. Yeah. Um, but not because of Dr. Sebi, but like, I think she was in a car accident,

[00:57:27] but that's, I feel like the most famous, maybe celebrity that like was following him, but he, he, he, uh, basically is a holistic, natural healer. Oh, not healer. Food, like, I'm, are you my, you might say, I don't know. I don't know how to describe. Dr. Sebi, not a doctor. Yeah, not a doctor. Uh, Dr. Phil. Not a doctor. Yeah. Um, but he's, he's essentially a herbalist,

[00:57:57] a hood herbalist is what I call him. He believes in like just eating proper food can cure all diseases. He has this whole book of natural stuff. You eat natural, no diseases touch you. It's this really, it's like Mario said, yes, I believe in like, it's like holistic stuff, but it's to a point, right? Yeah. To a point. Like there's, there's still science, you know, he like, you can't say like, Oh, you have cancer. We talked about this, right? Sarah. Um,

[00:58:26] you have cancer, go eat fruits and it'll, it'll go away type thing. Um, it's, it's like our version of that, Sarah. It's, it's, um, and that's what nature boy was doing. That's what he was saying. He was like, eat from the land, eat organic, eat natural, eat the stuff that we're pooping out. And that'll cause the cure all. He was, he was telling people that it like his diet will cure. He had followers with a spinal cancer. He had there.

[00:58:55] One thing that was not talked about on this is maybe a potential herpes outbreak within their, within the cult. Are you kidding me? And one of the things that the questions I had about this, remember the guy, I don't remember his name. Uh, was it? I can't remember his name, but the guy who velvet went down there to be with. They just, yeah. What happened to him? He just kind of slid out of the picture. And there's a documentary on YouTube.

[00:59:24] Talk about that. Not, not yet for me, but, um, other things that weren't, weren't mentioned. So we got two internet detectives in this one, but the real internet detective, a guy named young Pharaoh, who also is kind of like in that kind of same vein of like the Dr. Sebbies of them all, the Dr. Umars. He and nature boy had a, a tumultuous.

[00:59:54] He was on nature boys neck. He there, he says to nature boy, I feel like people got to you through me. And I, I will not stop until I eliminate you because he saw right through nature boy. He was, he was doing real internet detective work. He was going live every day, trying to expose nature boy. That whole thing about like the white girl from Canada,

[01:00:21] bringing attention kind of re yes, but also young Pharaoh and a lot of black people. There's, there's another internet detective. It was a woman. I forget her name who was also not featured on here. Both of them were tag teaming and trying to get the word out about nature boy and how awful he was like young Pharaoh finds the Airbnb address in Mexico, releases it to his followers and has his followers. They call the Airbnb owner.

[01:00:49] They call the consulate in Mexico. Like they're kind of one of the reasons why they get kicked out of Mexico. I don't even know if the first or the third time, I don't know. So that was another thing. I'm like, the documentary isn't really showing that there are, there were black people that were aware of this cult and who were trying to get rid of it in the, or in the early days. That's, I think that's as far as I got to up there. There's also rumors of HIV within the cult,

[01:01:17] which have been unsubstantiated because of this whole thing about like nature boy doesn't believe HIV exists at all. And you've never heard of a condom. Exactly. Exactly. So there's, there's all, it's, it's a lot. And there was other births from different children that were complicated. Were they nature boys or are they just like among the other? Among the cult.

[01:01:47] Among the cult. Right. So the cult actually has a good amount of kids being born. I'm sure there's so much going on, you know? Yes. There, I mean, this cult was in operation for at least seven years, 2017, 2024. Right. And yeah. So it's, it's a lot. And I will definitely suggest it. It's on hood horrors at YouTube, just hood horrors, nature boy. So there, there's,

[01:02:15] it was a lot of stuff that I was just like, yeah, again, this four part docu series. I like how, how Sarah said it. They, they might not have told the story in the best way, but go and look up more about it. Go watch this docu series. If you haven't, let's get to our ratings. Cause I'm sorry, this is a lot to talk about. And I think we got through a lot of it, but Kamaria, we always start with our guests. So Kamaria,

[01:02:41] how many magnifying glasses are you going to rate the cult of nature boy out of a possible five? If you do allow like have these and decimals and stuff too. That's funny. Oh, wow. I think that like, I'm going to say, I'm going to say at three and a half, I'd rate it higher. If I had like, was just going off the shock factor because I,

[01:03:08] it had my attention the entire time because I just was genuinely shocked. And when Sarah, when you spoke about there being the, and then the worst thing happens cliffhanger, I was just like, what, what, what is it? What is the worst? So they had me hooked in. So I would give it a higher rating, except for the fact of like the storytelling element. I don't think it would have taken anything away to give us like the dates of these, especially like the, the interviews,

[01:03:38] uh, especially because like in one interview, Janae seems incredibly in different spaces. It's healing wise with regard to what's happened to her. Like when she's in the yellow and she's breaking down, it feels, I mean, she is talking about the incident specifically in that scene only. I don't think they, they, she does it with her hair in the white wrap. However,

[01:04:02] it feels like she's in different spaces about it in terms of her ability to have processed it and talk about it. And so I just would have loved to see sort of like that. Um, and just some production things that we've touched on, were, were not, uh, my favorite thing, but yeah. So I, I give it a three and a half. And the only thing I wanted to speak on additionally that we hadn't really touched on was like Velvet running away. That to me, like I, it was so like,

[01:04:32] I had chills, like her putting her baby on her back and then like leaving in the middle of the night. And, and I think that her and Janae's story of like really getting to the space of doing the hard work, hard thing of just getting, protecting themselves or children, you know, not there, but in Velvet's case, you know, her child. I just think that is, deserves so much like round of applause. Like,

[01:05:00] because the level of brainwashing that was going on, the level of just, they are not in their right mind to have pulled themselves out of that or with the help of others, that takes courage. And it's, it should be commended because that is like your self protection element that I think is a base human component. It's just, it's springing to life. It's just like, I'm never going to give up on you. I'm even though you've been through this and you, you've,

[01:05:30] you've been here this entire time. I'm still like a new flower going to bloom and really push you to, to preserve yourself. And so I really loved their stories of like escape. And I, I, I really am glad that they talked about that because like, I was really like, wow, she put that baby on her back and she ran out. And he, they call it, they talk about the narcissistic collapse sometimes. I don't know if you've seen those videos, that mess that happened after she, she left.

[01:05:59] That was that narcissistic collapse. Okay. Yes. Yes. Velvet running away. I think, I think it was Aaron said like, that was the turning, one of the turning points, like with no shoes. She went out with no shoes. Yeah. Amazing. Yeah. Sarah, how many magnifying glasses are you going to rate this docuseries out of a possible five? I think one of the things that we might be struggling with is it's a fascinating story. It's an important story. It is in my mind,

[01:06:29] tell me if I'm wrong, shut me down, but it is a black man weaponizing black culture for his own ends, taking racism, turning it, saying, I will save you from it. But in fact, harnessing it. And I think, Murray, your point of, I don't want to put another black man in jail. I will, I don't want to show the ass of my, of my people.

[01:06:57] I want to present a united front. All of this stuff. He weaponized. I think that's really, really interesting. The women are incredible. They can have a hundred points, but the documentary itself got lost. It didn't have a cohesive narrative drive. And with such an extraordinary story, you can't tell everything. So pick, pick the, the, not just the salient points,

[01:07:25] but the thematic lines that you want to follow. So I'm going to give it a three. I'm going to recommend it, but it sounds like the 46 episodes on YouTube might be a better recommendation. Murray, what about you? Yeah. Great point. It's like, yeah. What, what, what are you trying to tell? Because we also had golden boy, a Portuguese Canadian guy come in for half a first episode just to be like, I was there. I was there.

[01:07:54] It wasn't for black people only. And then the first time that they encountered the police, he's like, I'm gone. Like, why? Like, why did we do that? Um, but yeah, I, I'm, I'm stuck in between the both of you. Cause I was going to give it a three and a half, but Sarah's right with the threes. I'm going to say 3.25 because I can do that. And I heavily recommend it. Like, like I said, I do recommend it just because of how intriguing it is.

[01:08:24] And not everybody can listen or watch four part, 46 parts on YouTube. So this four parts is, is interesting enough. If you, if you want to like get the gist of it, but I, I do think there were some missteps when it comes to how we tell the story, because the story is fascinating. The story, and I think that's what they kind of relied on. They kind of relied on the captivatingness of the story itself to kind of tell, tell it,

[01:08:53] but you do need a thorough line, a through line. You do need some, some documentary storytelling and, and, and creativity, especially when you have a lot to work with like this. So that's where it kind of falls short, but I completely understand why this docu-series has taken, has taken, you know, social media by storm, especially with, with the black community. I, I was like Kamara said,

[01:09:20] my jaw was on the floor the entire time, especially again, y'all in the, those later stages when you see them in Atlanta and all of a sudden he goes from nature boy to like gangsta boo. Like why he looked like Poo Shiesty? Like why did, what? Like it didn't make any sense. Very, very intriguing content, you know, production could have done better. So 3.25, but I do, I do recommend it. That's, that's for sure. Kamara,

[01:09:50] do you have anything to recommend to our listeners? So I've been watching the Emma Greets podcast is fire and I really love, like I particularly recommend the Bozama St. John episodes. Boz is like one of my all time favorite. I will say, I guess housewives, but like, cause she's new to the housewives now, but I,

[01:10:15] she's one of my all time favorite marketing and just business woman executives. I just think she has so much gumption about her. And she's just like, she has so much life advice about really kind of going for it. And so I have been kind of binge listening and binge watching cause it's YouTube and, uh, Spotify, the, the podcast. So if you're kind of into business or, you know, looking for a,

[01:10:41] a woman's perspective from these women CEOs and business women, uh, I think it's a great listen. And, and Emma Greets, she's been, she's been in the news a lot lately. I feel like recently, but I really love, uh, sort of listening to the stories. And the one critique I will say is that sometimes Emma Greets might talk too much, but it's like, she has such access to these women who are fabulous that I just love hearing their story. She's got Tracy Ellis Ross on there.

[01:11:11] She's got a lot of women that, you know, Meli, uh, Hopson. She just got a lot of women that you want to hear their stories, like how you made this, how you built what you built. And we hear from men a lot, but she, she focuses on women. And so I think that's really great. Yes. Thank you for that. Sarah, what do you have to recommend to our listeners? I'm going to recommend a scripted drama. It's called legends on Netflix. It's a six part British drama.

[01:11:39] It's based on a true story, undercover customs offices, infiltrated global drug networks in the early 1990s. It's really, really good. Uh, Steve Coogan is in it. I know him as Alan Partridge, but you may look for him in the next white Lotus. So that's legends on Netflix. What about you, Mary? What do you have to recommend?

[01:12:06] I'm going to recommend some low quality, uh, trash TV that I have to watch. Perfect match season four, I believe, uh, just dropped on Netflix, watched all five episodes of the drop. It's, it's so bad, but I have to watch it. It is. There's no rhyme or reason, you know, I just have to watch it. I barely know who most of these people are. Um, but I'm going to watch it. There's some sleazy love reality TV show on.

[01:12:35] I am watching it. So I did. And I don't know if you should watch it, but I do know you should go listen to, um, our compatriots, uh, Jason Asian, I believe Kirsten McGinnis, who I'm pretty sure will be covering perfect match over on the perfect match podcast on RHAP. So I, I, I watch it so I can listen to Jason Asian person that, yeah, that's my story. That's why I'm sticking to it. We're actually covering that too. This season.

[01:13:05] We literally just recorded our first episode today on that. And I agree. It's, it's a mixed bag. It's like, why am I watching this? Why am I watching this? But also why am I just letting it play through? Right. It's just so easy. It's just so easy to keep it on and look up and do whatever on your phone and be like, mm. At Crime Scene, we're eager to hear your feedback and suggestions for future episodes. You can subscribe by going to CrimeScenePod.com or search Crime Scene.

[01:13:35] That's S-E-E-N wherever you get your podcasts. You can follow Crime Scene everywhere at CrimeScenePod or email us at CrimeScenePod at gmail.com. You can support us at buymeacoffee.com slash CrimeScenePod. You can sling us a couple of bucks. We'd like that. Or you can join our monthly membership. Members receive episodes early, if I edit them on time, and ad free, as well as other exclusive bonus content.

[01:14:02] There are six full episodes waiting for you there, including our latest discussion of The Bachelorette Season 22 with Mel Barrett and Ellen Marsh. And our member bonus for June. You are going to get the opportunity to watch us record the main feed live. We're going to leave in all the mistakes, all the inappropriateness, all the laughter that we cut out and edit for our beautiful main feed episodes.

[01:14:32] Yes. Yes. You can also support us by buying our merch. Yes. We have Crime Scene Tumblers. They're available at my shop. You can go to Mari Crafts Too Much, too like the number two, at bigcartel.com. When you're there, you can also look at my other book-themed tumblers. I customize cups for you guys. So if you see something that is not for you, you can always just have me make something for you.

[01:15:00] I put pets on people's cups. I put kids on people's cups. I can put anything on a cup. So check it out while you're there. You can find the link to the store in the show notes. And if none of that is for you, you can still support us for free. Yes, we like that price tag, free. Rate and review Crime Scene so others can find us. Five stars only. Five stars. Your support makes more difference than you can imagine.

[01:15:32] Kamaria, what do you have going on and where can the people find you? You can find me at Black Girls Talking TV. We are on YouTube. We're on Spotify. All the places where you find your podcasts. And we're on Instagram and TikTok for a little short entertainment burst. We recently, for Survivor, our Survivor recaps, we had on season 14 winner Earl Cole. First Black winner of Survivor. And it was so great.

[01:16:01] We loved having him. And so go check out that episode. Yeah. And so this week we're wrapping up Survivor. And we're on Perfect Match. We'll be covering Love Island this summer. Big Brother. Just all the favorite TV shows that you can't get enough of. And so thanks so much for having me. I appreciate it. It was fun talking with you guys. Of course. Of course. Thank you so much. And if you see anything, see anything true crime related and you want to talk about it, let us know.

[01:16:31] Reach out to us and we'll fit you in there. We'll put you on. We tell our guests you can pick your, you can pick what you want to talk about. Or, you know, if we find something for you, we'll always ask. Yeah. I saw you guys did Worst X Season 2. I was like, I just watched it. I'm like, yeah. This would have been great as well. But I see you guys have already covered it. But yeah, I'll let you know. Of course. Sarah, what do you got going on and where can people find you?

[01:16:59] People can find me on Blue Sky at Sarah Carradine if that's something they'd like to do. Over on Babes and the Conclave, I'm finishing up coverage of The Traitors, Turkey A with Annabelle Fiddler. We have seen the finale. It is wild. So we can't wait to talk about that and bring you that episode. And I sat in for Mel Barrett on her show with Rebecca Lavoie that I mentioned earlier. Something's off. It was super fun. It was also one o'clock in the morning here where I am.

[01:17:27] So who knows what I said? Go and listen to it and let me know what I said. What about you, Mari? Where can the people find you? Well, of course, you can find me over on Recap Kickback, where me and Chappelle talk about whatever we want to. Like I said, we've been on a really good run this May. We started it by reviewing Michael, the Michael Jackson movie. And for the past two weeks, we have been covering a lot of comedy.

[01:17:55] We talked about Funny AF, Kevin Hart's stand-up comedy reality TV show. And then we followed it up by asking, are we too woke for roasts? During our coverage of the roast of Kevin Hart. This week, we're covering Is God Is. And so we are just barreling towards June, where during June, we will be covering the interview with the vampire season three, known as the Vampire-less Stats.

[01:18:24] Our favorite toxic vampire duo will be back and we'll be talking about it. And of course, we're pulling double duty because right around the corner, right after that is House of the Dragons season three. And we cannot wait to talk about that. So over on Recap Kickback, it's Chappelle's show. He can talk about whatever he wants. He's currently finishing up Avid Elementary with Gia Worthy. Him and Chantel Francis every Sunday night,

[01:18:51] talk about a new episode in the Flavor of Love universe. They are currently in the middle of Charm School season one. Chantel Francis did not watch the original VH1 Flavor of Love universe. So Chappelle is guiding her through it as they go through it now. And it's such a fun ride. So please go and check out Recap Kickback,

[01:19:17] the whole network by going to youtube.com slash at Recap Kickback. Or you can just follow us and subscribe on Recap Kickback wherever you get your podcasts. Sarah, what are we watching next week? Next time on Crime Scene, we're covering We Are Jenny with Ellen Marsh from I Think Not podcast. Watch that on max and send us your comments and questions. Thanks to Kamaria for joining us, Will from America for the theme music,

[01:19:47] and to those brave women who were able to escape a cult and were able to bring it down. Until next time, case closed.