#SKYKING | Crime Seen episode 197

[00:00:00] Hier kommt die witzigste Murder Mystery Komödie in diesem Jahr, basierend auf dem Bestseller Glenkill, ein Schafskrimi. Unser Schäfer wurde ermordet. Wir werden das Verbrechen aufklären. Diese Schafe sind keine gewöhnlichen Schafe, sie sind Detektive. Sucht nach Spuren und niemand frisst den Tatort auf. In den Hauptrollen Hugh Jackman und Emma Thompson. Es geht um 30 Millionen Dollar. Wir haben unser Motiv. Mit den Stimmen von Anke Engelke und Bastian Pastewka. Glenkill – ein Schafskrimi. Ab 14. Mai nur im Kino.

[00:00:54] Hallo, everyone. Ich bin Mari Forth. Und ich bin Sarah Carradine, podcasting aus Unceded Gadigal Land. Und hier ist Crime Seen, die True Crime Review Podcast, wo wir uns zu den hearten, wie True Crime stories sind. Es ist ein big True Crime news story, gerade jetzt. Es ist pitiful und horrible und Mari und ich nicht mehr darüber sprechen. 13-jährige Celeste Rivas Hernandez, die in April von letztem Jahr,

[00:01:19] und sie war in September, in der Trunk des Car. Das Car belonged to the singer David Burke, also going by David D4VD. He's been charged with child sexual assault, sexual misconduct with a minor, und unlawful mutilation of a body. Und, of course, murder. He has pleaded not guilty.

[00:01:46] Mari and I aren't going to talk about it, but if you want to hear more coverage of the story, go and listen to Alan and Joey on I Think Not, Mel and Rebecca on Something's Off, and, of course, our man Mike on that chapter. They all have really good coverage of the lead-up of the story and the unfolding events currently. Murray? Yes, very unfortunate events, but there are a lot of good journalists, YouTubers, podcasters out there that are covering it.

[00:02:15] So last week we watched Trust Me, The False Prophet. Wow, that was a trip. Watch it and listen to our coverage. Murray, what did we watch this week? This week we watched Hashtag Sky King on Hulu. It's a 90-minute documentary from ABC News Studios, directed by Patricia Gillespie. We have covered two of her previous films very positively, The Secrets We Buried, and They Called Him Mostly Harmless,

[00:02:43] both of which got fives across the board from us and our guests. Making his fourth appearance to the podcast, of somebody I've known my whole entire life, my dad, Tony Cox. Tony, welcome back. Welcome back, Tony. Glad to be with y'all once again. Yes, four times. Again, it feels like more. It feels like more. I might be a co-host sooner, later.

[00:03:14] Well, you have a long way to go. Our unofficial third chair is on her, like, what, 17th appearance? Close to 20. She's getting there. We figured out she'd been on almost 10% of our episodes. Amazing. Okay. Be now. Be now. But you can come back anytime, Tony. Pick something you want to watch. Let us know. Otherwise, we're just going to invite you anytime we feel like the property might tickle your fancy.

[00:03:41] Oh, gotcha, gotcha, gotcha. I think I like it that way. Yeah. Good. Because we do like doing it because, especially for properties like this. So let's get to it because I know I have a lot to talk about. But before we dive in, we want to let you know that the documentary and our discussion in part deals with mental health and suicide. If that's not for you today, switch off now and we'll see you next week.

[00:04:11] Here are some resources which we will link in the show notes. In the U.S., you can go to wanttotalkaboutit.com, go to 988lifeline.org or call 988. If you are in immediate danger, call 911. In Australia, you can call Lifeline on 131114 or lifeline.org.au or go to beyondblue.org.au.

[00:04:41] If you are in immediate danger, call 000. So to the crime, Richard Russell, called Bebo, was a 29-year-old American working as a Horizon Air ground service agent for less than minimum wage. In August 2018, he stole a Bombardier Q400 turboprop from SeaTac Airport in Washington.

[00:05:06] And for Australians and others, SeaTac is Seattle-Tacoma, I think? Seattle-Tacoma Airport. Yeah. So that's what SeaTac is. Although he had never flown a plane, he kept the aircraft aloft for 75 minutes, chatting with air traffic control, completing a barrel roll before crashing on Ketron Island, dying by suicide. Media and the internet dubbed him Sky King.

[00:05:33] So this was a very interesting documentary that we immediately knew that if we were going to cover it, well, when we were going to cover it, we had to have you on, Dad, to talk about your aviation experience and knowledge. So before we get into it, overall, what were your thoughts on the documentary and what experience or expertise you can tell us about this documentary?

[00:06:00] I mean, when you first told me about it, I was like, I remember that. I remember it very well and everything. So overall, I just thought it was interesting at first. There were things that I thought could have been done differently by the airport and air traffic controllers. And then it came around to what was going on in the world today or back then and still going on in the world today, back then and now.

[00:06:26] And when it took that turn there, because I had forgotten about that, then it kind of took me in a different direction. So I was spiraling for a little bit. First, I was like, what is he doing? How was he allowed to do this? And why aren't they doing, why aren't the airport, the air traffic controller doing more to get him out of the sky?

[00:06:49] And next, it was like, why did this story had to turn to a microcosm of what was going on in the world back then and now? So that's it. It took me on a pretty good ride there. I completely agree. Sarah, what are your overall thoughts about the documentary? Well, this, I mean, we like this director very much. So I was inclined to like it.

[00:07:15] I thought this is odd for her and the way that she works and what she's interested in. But of course, once I started watching it, it was like, oh, yes, yes, yes, Patricia. She tells these amazing and simple stories. They're like simple stories, but they're amazing stories. And she's able to really walk that line. And here she uses the audio of the events in the sky. Virtually the whole 75 minutes, I feel.

[00:07:43] She has the people she's talking to, the talking heads, with their headphones listening to it. So you get to hear a section of the audio and then you see each of the people she's talking to taking off the headphones to react at the same moment in different, obviously in different times and spaces to the events that you are reacting to. So there's this incredible echo backwards and forwards where we're hearing it for the first time. They're hearing it for the first time. They're reacting.

[00:08:13] We're reacting. So just technically and storytelling wise, it was stunning. Absolutely stunning. It looks really simple. But as a creator, I know what she did was amazing. Now, as you say, Tony, the stories of the documentary itself, the story that the documentary is telling is the other layer to this. And I'm looking forward to talking about it because I did not remember this at all. And so I didn't know what happened.

[00:08:41] And I was riveted. What about you, Mari? Yeah, I too have one of my notes is the storyboarding was really tight because I too realized that they were listening to it, like listening to it reacting. Listening to it reacting. I thought that was amazing. I thought the beats that she picked to stop down on, perfection. I think the way the story was told was very interesting. I did have a few gripes.

[00:09:09] Like, like dad said, it really did kind of send me on a roller coaster because at first I was like, oh my God, this is like really good. And then I was like, okay, then I started seeing little things. I was like, oh, okay, I could have done something a little different here. And then by the time we come back to the social commentary, I'm like, oh, there's some things we need to talk about about that portion. But overall, for an event that I do remember as well, I remember him stealing it.

[00:09:38] I remember like the fallout of it. I do think that this was way more in depth because I do remember taking away like, oh, he was a disgruntled white guy. But basically letting us hear that whole 60 minute was, I thought, riveting. I thought it was a great way to go with this. It wasn't egregious. It was very well done using the audio.

[00:10:04] But for me as well, it was, it was, it was a hard watch for me personally, not because of what was going on. I mean, not because of production or anything like that. It was bad. It was me personally. It was all my anxiety, all of the, the, the anxious parts of me. It triggered it all, right? The, the, I'm a nervous flyer and the whole time I'm just thinking, what about all of these other, these other planes? Were they redirected? Where's his altitude?

[00:10:33] What havoc is he unknowingly, you know, reeking in the sky type, type thing? An airport spread that's afraid of flying? Tony. I know. I need to talk to you about your parenting. Nah. Well. She hasn't always been afraid of flying. Not always. I think the older she gets, the more she gets afraid of flying. I think that's how it is. And to be honest with you, the more, the more I fly too, I get like that also. Because. Yeah.

[00:11:03] It's, it's the lower averages sometimes. You know. Don't say that. I've been flying since I was three months old. You're like, is this my number? But no, I'm just joking. I know for my answer. No. For me, I think, I think, look, I'm not flying the plane. I can't do anything about it. So, it is completely out of my hands, whether I live or die here. So, just, you know. And that makes you comfortable. I'm perfectly comfortable.

[00:11:31] And also because I know why they tell you to draw the shades, why they tell you to put the shades up. And I also know that when they show you the life jacket, it's like, you're not putting that life jacket on. If we land on water, we're not using that lighting whistle to attract attention. So, yeah. That's why this show was so intriguing. Whenever you get ready to get into the technical part about it, I can talk to you a little bit. I mean, let's, let's start off. Because I think that's where we have to start.

[00:12:01] And this was something that I really liked how they did. We start off the movie seeing the security footage. We legit see the security footage of him coming in for work like it's a normal day. And the fact that they had the security footage of like, it's a camera pointed at one thing, but in the background, you straight up see him hijack that plane. I was like, that was nuts bananas. I would say it's still moving.

[00:12:29] And he's got the stairway down and he's getting in it and he's shutting the stairway. Right. So, yeah. When I'm able to talk about that part of it, I want to talk about that because. Right now. He shuts the stairway and he noses the plane out. Yeah. So, first of all, the whole entire feat is amazing.

[00:12:56] First, because he's never flown a plane before, but he's got experience with it because he sits in the cockpit as they pull the plane or take it to the shop or whatever. So, he gets a lot of time to sit in that plane. And if you use an ATC, and this is not a plug, an ATC simulator, you can see exactly how that cockpit is set up because they got the different type planes in there.

[00:13:24] And if he, it seems like he sat in that cockpit while he played on his computer and realized where most of that stuff was. So, the hard part is taking off. That is so hard. You have to be going the right speed and you got to pull up and you got to know, put the wheels up and the flaps up. Something that's very technical.

[00:13:52] But if you fly a simulator, you can do it because it teaches you how to do it. A simulator teaches you how to do it. So, I don't know the background on that, but that in itself, just taking off with the plane was amazing for somebody that had never flown before. The flying around for 45 minutes, 47 minutes, over how long he flew, that can be done.

[00:14:18] The other part about it is that your anxiety, where are all the other planes at? The air traffic controller has got to keep planes away from him, not knowing what he was going to do. And the two jet fighters scrambling to go up there, that's going to happen anyway, like they said in the documentary. Anytime a plane is hijacked, you're going to get us to scramble. Yeah.

[00:14:42] I just thought that the people that were trying to talk him down, I think they got probably about 40 minutes into the documentary before they start saying, what about landing this thing? Yeah. Yeah. You know, they talked for about 30 minutes about a whole lot of stuff except for landing the plane. Yeah. And it was just Andrew, it seemed like. Yeah.

[00:15:10] I think as a crisis manager, my first thing would be, let's get him down as fast as possible. The faster we get him down, the less damage he may be able to cause. So, I think they were very patient with him. I think that if they had talked to him earlier, they might have had a better chance. Because it seemed like the longer he went, the more he had decided that this won't going to end well. Yeah.

[00:15:36] And so, they let him go for a long, long time. And once he did this barrel roll, I couldn't remember if he made it or not. He did. He made it. Yeah. Yeah. I saw it. Once he made it, I was like, wow, that is hard. 10 feet off the deck. 10 feet off the deck. That's amazing. And then he got it back up in the air and leveled it off again. This is so hard.

[00:16:06] And when he got back up there, they should have known once he did that, it was over. They weren't going to talk him down then. He even said, oh, I didn't think I was going to make that. So, he didn't care if he died at that point. At that point. And that's what I was saying. I think I would have, as a crisis manager, I would have started talking, trying to get him to come down 20 minutes into the flight. Not 40 or 50 minutes into the flight. Probably even earlier than that.

[00:16:34] Technically, that's what I thought they could have did better. Do you think that Colleen, the ATC operations supervisor, who picked Andrew, and I apologize to him, picked him to talk to Bebo, and we don't have Andrew. That's one of the people we don't have as a talking head. And I'm not surprised. It seemed to me that Colleen was kind of caught between whoever higher up she was talking to and relaying instructions through to Andrew, who was speaking to Bebo.

[00:17:04] Tony, was it your impression that she was in charge or that she was being hampered by those people who were in charge? Well, she had to do it. It was her job. She's a coordinator between those two things. I mean, those two entities. You saw she had to call the FAA first, which is all the way in Washington, D.C. And she got a, you know, she got a automated. The Hordons. Oh, yes. Yeah. I was like, oh, my God. Our Hordons don't last a long time. We're going to see you live.

[00:17:33] And that's when they came on pretty fast, you know. They say, I need to help you. Help me out to reach your call. Yeah. And the other thing with her was, she just said, I kind of got a, you have an emergency. You don't kind of have an emergency. You got an emergency. She said, I kind of got an emergency. No, you got an emergency.

[00:17:56] So, she has to play liaison between all these different fractions of people. First, it was her traffic controllers. And then it became the FAA. Then it became Andrew. And then it became the pilot that knows the plane the best. So, she had to play liaison between all these people. I think she did a good job of that.

[00:18:26] Maybe that's just her nature not to say, this is a freaking emergency and let's get this freaking plane on the ground as fast as possible. Mm-hmm. They were all just too cozy for me. They were just talking like it was a walk in the park. Yeah. To me, that's what it was. And especially since they weren't sure of his motives. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, I got you. They're like, wait, he's not in contact with us?

[00:18:55] I really wanted to know more about takeoff because how do you take off from a crowded airport? He took off from a, I think if I'm not mistaken, he took off from a taxi runway. Okay. I mean, there would not be any traffic on that runway anyway. Right. Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. I can't remember for sure, but yeah. Somebody says something to him, whether it was Andrew or Pilot Pete, compliments him,

[00:19:23] like quite cleverly at one point, sort of compliments him on how well he's doing. And he says, oh, I've played computer games. I think you're right, Tony. Yeah. In amongst that was probably the simulator. Yeah. And thanks, Marie. It was Andrew. And as you say, sitting in that cockpit as well. I was very surprised by how long it took them to put a pilot on. That's what, thank you. That's exactly what I was going to say. Because Pilot Pete was, I thought he was doing a really good job of talking him down.

[00:19:50] But like Dad said, at that point, it had gone on. It had been 50 minutes into the thing. Yeah. 40 minutes into the thing. And you can see how the pilot was more direct than Andrew was. Andrew had a lot of compassion for the young man. But the pilot was like, what are your thoughts here? What are we going to do? What are the chances of you landing this plane today? You know? Yeah. And the pilot was like, he said, you did a barrel roll. You'll be a hero. Da-da-da-da.

[00:20:18] And when Bebo pushed back, he was like, you got a wife, man. Like, the pilot. I thought when the pilot came on, I was like, man. Like, he was really good at talking to him, I thought. Yeah. If anyone was going to get him down, it was him. And he didn't indulge. Bebo was going off on tangents. And he was like, look at your instruments. What do you see? Look at the button that's above the thing. That, that, that, that.

[00:20:45] And I thought, yeah, it's that sort of voice that you, it's calm, but you obey it. And I thought if they'd got him on at the beginning of this, I mean, who knows? Who knows? And even when Bebo was saying, oh, the jets, the jets, and the pilot was saying, yes, they are there. And they will be there. And they are. You're not getting rid of them. Exactly. Do you, cause, and we're not blaming Andrew or anything like that. No, no. Like, like that. No, no. We're not at all.

[00:21:11] But when he was like, oh, I know, I know you're about to scramble the jets. And Andrew was like, no, we're not going to scramble the jets. Do you scramble the jets? So you're like, what do you mean? Everybody knows they're scrambling jets. There's no point in lags. Yes. Stay back. Stay back. No, don't stay back. He knows where you are. He can see you. It's like hulking jets in the sky. Yeah. And, and, and, and again, it's not Andrew's fault because let's, let's, again, Andrew is air traffic control.

[00:21:40] He is just supposed to, he's trained to control the air traffic. He's not a trained mental health person. Yes. Exactly. He's not trained. Andrew, Andrew probably went to, went to see a specialist after this, you know. Yeah. Oh yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Because like I said, you can hear the compassion in his voice and he wanted to, uh, uh, be able to land that plane or try to land that plane. But that pilot was really serious. And I think you hit it on the head.

[00:22:09] And if they had gotten the pilot on earlier, we may have had a different, you know, scenario. What chance would he have had to land the plane under instruction from the pilot though, Tony? Yeah. Great chance. That's a big plane. Okay. It's a big plane. And if McCord airfield was the best place for that plane to land, because that airfield is the home of all our big airplanes, our big jets.

[00:22:36] It's a ATC based, uh, air transportation based. So all our transport planes are there mostly. So he had, if they could have got him in a position to go at that airfield, he had a good shot. He could have, he could have landed on the water too. If they could have got him to flatten out at the right time and not go nose in, you know?

[00:23:02] So when he was 10 feet above the deck after the barrel roll, if he had just cut everything off and just let it glide, it would have land on the, uh, on the lake or whatever that was that, whatever that body of water was. Oh, Puget Sound. So he didn't have too much space there, but it was water. And he was only 10 feet off the ground on that water.

[00:23:27] Airspeed is, uh, is, uh, is, uh, is gonna cut what would have cost him to, it would have been a real bumpy landing because he was going really fast. Because he was at the bottom of the barrel roll. And at the bottom of the barrel roll is when the speed is at it, at his highest. So, and then he had to pretty much throttle up to get it to go back up in the air. So glad that we have you on because I, with no knowledge thought, how, how could they possibly

[00:23:57] get him down to land? But you've given us two really practical solutions to that. Yeah. Right. And if he could, if he can take off, he has the skill to land, especially with a pilot in his ear. Yeah. I would say so. So he definitely could have landed, but like he, you could tell he was weighing his options that whole entire flight, you know? So we, we gotta move on.

[00:24:20] This is some great technical talk, but we definitely gotta get into some of the more social aspects. So after we get the hijacking, it's interspersed with now we're meeting his family, his loved ones, if you will, the, the loved ones that are mentioned when he, when he says, you know, I do have a whole bunch of, I do have a bunch of some loved ones that'll like miss me or, or will be confused by this. And we're introduced to his mom, who I think is named Karen, right? Mm-hmm.

[00:24:49] We, we get two of his brothers, uh, his sisters. It's mostly his like immediate family, except for his wife. Um, getting, getting Bebo's backstory, I thought was very interesting. And I like the way that they unfolded it here, Sarah, because I felt like each time we got, uh, like his backstory, some section of his backstory, how he grew up, cut to the plane,

[00:25:19] what's going on there, go back more to his childhood or his early adulthood, cut to the plane. Like I thought it was really well segmented. What did you think about the unfurling of Bebo's backstory? Yes. Look, I think you're absolutely right. We often talk about placement, like there's not just the information. Do we need it? Is it illuminating? But where and how is it placed? And here, here again, I mean, the skill of this is incredible.

[00:25:47] I've, I found Andreas was really our narrator. When we first meet her, we think, oh, Karen's going to be the narrator. His mother is going to be the one that, that narrates and lets us in and lets us understand. But it was in fact his coworker, Andreas, who I found the most clearheaded and not afraid to say what was what. He started by saying that Bebo trained him and what a great guy Bebo was.

[00:26:16] And then he takes us with him as he observes Bebo starting to disintegrate. And more than his childhood, which, which was of interest, that disintegration gave me more. And Andreas gave me that disintegration because he was right there watching it happen. The very first thing that Andreas says is the first thing I thought was what did Horizon do to him? So we're going to go in via the work situation via Andreas.

[00:26:45] Yes, I can. I completely agree with that. I did think that they're talking about he was an all American guy. He's from Wasilla, Alaska, I believe, small town in Alaska, a poster boy, Christian, all American kid, wrestler, football player. He did one more sport. I can't remember. Track. Track. Track. Yeah. And even this is after on the comms, they're like, oh, well, I need Andrew's like, I need

[00:27:15] to know your name. What's your identity? And he's like, I've been struggling with identity issues. And I was like, hmm, that perked my ears up, you know? But basically, it's a story of the younger him grappling with his Christianity, going off to college, saying that it's not what he thinks it is. He moves back with his friend. He finds his wife, Hannah. We hear about Hannah's story.

[00:27:42] But again, we start to hear the unfurl of the pressures placed on him. Dad, what did you think about the kind of commentary here about the pressures placed on him via his Christian beliefs, really? Yeah. Like I said, this was a rollercoaster ride because it had a little bit of everything that is a microcosm of what America was and is today. So, and the story is a mental health story to me.

[00:28:10] It's a mental health story because this guy struggled from childhood all the way up to the point where he took the airplane, hijacked the airplane. To me, I think that growing up in a household with a whole bunch of people, a whole lot of craziness going on and an abusive father set the stage for what life should be and what it should not be.

[00:28:37] Because as a child, what you see, you're either going to gravitate towards it or gravitate away from it. And it seemed to me that he was trying to get away from all the craziness that was going on in his younger life. And as you get into the Christian part of it, sometimes people forget that as a Christian, it's a continuous journey.

[00:29:04] And in the Bible itself, and as everybody speaks, no one is perfect. And it seems like he was trying to be the perfect person for his wife, his wife's family, and be the perfect Christian as everybody see a Christian man. Provide for the family. This job didn't allow him to provide for his family like he said. He thought he should.

[00:29:32] It allowed him to travel and take his wife to places he wouldn't normally be able to take them there. But obviously, they struggled after they got back from these trips and stuff. So that's what the religious part about it and how he grew up brought it home to where his struggles were. Trying to be a good Christian, trying to be a good husband, and trying to be a good son and brother. He was trying to be everything to everybody.

[00:30:00] To me, that's what it looked like. That's really illuminating, Tony. I mean, you've sort of opened a window that I hadn't thought of. What I thought of was he's the middle of five children, but he's got twins above him and twins below him. Below him. So when you think about identity in his family, it's normal to have an echo or a mirror or another self.

[00:30:26] All of his siblings have another self and he doesn't. So I thought that intrigued me in terms of setting him up. So when you say, oh, he wanted to be the perfect American, the perfect man, the perfect Christian, the perfect... I can see that coming right from childhood. And in fact, his mother, Karen says, oh, he was always the one that looked after everybody. He was always the happy one. He was always...

[00:30:52] And I think given his abusive father, we see children being parentified. And I feel very strongly that he was... Because the two younger ones than him were girls. And I think, you know, gender has a role. And he stepped up to a parental role with them, even as a young boy, I think, in my opinion. I had originally wondered if it was like, oh, he was constraining under Christian values.

[00:31:19] But it didn't feel like he was constraining under them, as in like he had a secret that was, you know, making him feel down about himself. It, to me, felt like it was the pressure of wanting to... Like, it feels different. I don't know if I'm saying it differently, but it felt like he was okay with striving towards that. And he wanted to provide that. It was like, he can't. He couldn't. Because we get to the part where it's the commentary on society. It's like, his wife is from well-off parents.

[00:31:47] Because she went to culinary school. She got her baking degree. And when they said she went to culinary school, and they said as soon as they graduated, they brought a bakery. I was like, oh, I smell cash somewhere. And so they're running the bakery for a few years. Meanwhile, we don't get a lot of backstory from this. Most of the stuff we get from about this part of his life, his marriage, is from his mom's point of view. From what we are assuming is hearsay.

[00:32:15] Because his wife Hannah is nowhere participating in this documentary. And that should say something as well. But they just said, like, it seemed like the bakery was going well. Seemed like they were probably at least breaking even. And the family didn't know because all of a sudden, they went from running a bakery in Oregon to moving into Seattle so that they could be close to Hannah's family. And immediately as they're getting close to Hannah's family, Hannah's family are automatically like, well, you need to provide. You need to do this.

[00:32:45] And he's struggling. He's not used to the big city. He gets this job at Horizon Air. And this is where we get into, like, just like, I was like, oh, I didn't know about this part of the story. Where he's at this job. Like Dad said, they can't provide. The job can't provide. It has its perks, but it can't provide. He's making $12.75 an hour on long days. You know, spending all his time there. Unhappy. He's at a dead end. He can't go any further.

[00:33:13] And when he does have hope of trying to go further. When he does do things to better himself to go for it. They'll finish his degree and stuff. They tell him, well, you're not going to get that job. First and foremost, before we get into what was said. You know, the mistreatment of those guys being called monkeys in the tug. And ramp rats. And being openly mocked and ridiculed by what they say is a flight crew like other pilots.

[00:33:41] Why as a pilot would you mock your ground crew? Do you like your life? I don't know. That doesn't seem like good practice to me. So he's being mistreated. Like Andres says, they're understaffed, overworked, underpaid. And then when he thinks he can better himself, they're told no. What did Andres say that was told to him? He's a white guy. He said white does not wash away poor.

[00:34:11] Amazing. Well, yes. Yeah, that's the story. Well, that is true. But he's told you're white. You're not going to get that position. And that's how he internalized it. That's the part of when we go back to the flying portion. When he's talking about his life. And he's like, maybe he said, maybe this will teach the horizons to like ways raise the minimum wage or something like that. But what do I know? I'm just a white guy or something. And that's the clip that goes, you know, viral.

[00:34:41] So people think he's a white nationalist. We'll get to all of that. But I say all that to say, then Andres says, well, he wasn't the right kind of white does not wash away poor, which I think is a great saying. Just like you said here, Sarah. But it kind of goes to like, is there a hint of entitlement here, Sarah? Or is it like, I don't know. I was like, I'm on your side, but also. Mm-hmm. What?

[00:35:10] Why are you going to say what? Why are you going to say what? Before you go, Sarah, just think about Andres and his statement. I think, like you said, Andres, his coworker, I hope I'm pronouncing his name right. I think he was the most level-headed and the person that gave the most insight on the whole thing in the whole story. As far as that part about it, the social part about it.

[00:35:36] He said, like you said, his famous statement, white don't wipe away poor. And I've been black all my life. And it's always harder for a black man than a white man. He just was not the right type white man. He was considered poor, white trash.

[00:36:00] And the faster that a world and America see that it's not always about race, it's more classism than racism. It just is. It just is. And for years and centuries and whatever how long, people that with the means are always going to try to separate the poor white people from the black people.

[00:36:29] And make us fight each other while they stay at the top, gaining everything. That's my opinion. You couldn't have put it better, Tony, honestly. And I almost, I mean, I didn't stop the documentary, but I almost stopped the documentary. Several of Andres' comments.

[00:36:48] One that I wanted to highlight was that Horizon, their employer, who is presumably making money, said they couldn't afford to pay their workers more than $12.75 an hour, which is under minimum wage. I would posit that if you are a business going concern, an organization that makes money, a commercial concern. If you can't pay your workers, then you are not good at business.

[00:37:18] Then you can't have your business. Then you're not allowed to have your business. That's what I would say. Yeah, our minimum wage here is $22 or $24, something like that. I think it's $24. Must be nice. Yeah. To say that you can't pay your workers the wage and run your business means you can't run your business. Exactly. It's as simple as that.

[00:37:47] So, I mean, it happens here as well, but I know it happens in your country. It's American capitalism because those people are the people that make their company go. And they'll go back. I mean, let's circle back to what the pilots were saying about the ground crew. It happens in the Air Force also, but not quite as, you know, like that. You have the pilots, you have the ground crew, and then you have the support people,

[00:38:15] which in the airline industry will be customer service at the counters and stuff. That's how the ranking is. Pilots, stewardess. I don't know if you call them that anymore. We call them trolley dollies. Yeah, okay. Oh, no. Flight attendants. Okay, flight attendants. Go, go. Pilots, flight attendants, ground crew, and then customer service. That's how they're ranked. In the Air Force, it's the same way.

[00:38:46] Pilot, maintenance, and then support people. And that's how they're ranked. But the only difference in business, you have this thing called investors. They've got to be paid their dividend. And if their dividends aren't what they're supposed to be, we've got to cut costs. And where do you cut? You're not going to cut the pilot because they've got to fly the plane.

[00:39:10] You're not going to cut the stewardess, the flight attendant, because they have a strong union. So now you go to the ground crew. You said the word Tony, union. Yes. So there you go. That's how it works for the most part. And then you layer in that, as you say, that it suits people in power with money to divide people who are working class, people who are disadvantaged.

[00:39:40] It suits them to set those groups against each other. Because what would happen if they worked together? There's more of them than there are of the toppity, snootity, top tops. And so if the larger group of people turns on the smaller group, the smaller group are in trouble. So as you say, make them divide. Make them fight each other. Make them say, well, I'm poor like you, but at least I'm white.

[00:40:08] I'm poor like you, but at least I'm straight. At least I'm a Christian. So I find, not me personally, you find a way to be above another. And it's extremely effective. And it has to change. Yeah. Did y'all find that it was really odd that when he said that one statement that everybody in the documentary had to take a minute? I did too. I wrote that down.

[00:40:36] And I was like, oh, everybody wants the cameras to cut off all of a sudden. All of a sudden we want to cut the cameras. Exactly. Everybody had to take a minute because he said that. Because now they got to get their thoughts together. And like the brother was honest. He said, I don't want to say nothing that makes me sound racist, you know? So. So. And there's one way to sound racist, you know, it's to be racist. Exactly. Once again, it was a microcosm of what's going on in the world today.

[00:41:05] People don't want to talk about it. They don't want to talk about it. Just say it. I'd rather for you to say it than hide it from me. Right. Exactly. Yeah. And the irony about this being like a class thing, I really was like, he had all that time in the cockpit. I really wish he had talked about it more, but he didn't. You know what I'm saying? Talk about his mistreatment at Horizons. Talk about the mistreatment of the workers, the pay, you know, all of that.

[00:41:32] But because he says that, you know, you're contemplating as he a racist. And then we immediately have to have Andrus come like the only black person. He's not a racist. I'm like, okay, great. We got that out of the way. We got that out of the way. Because America and the world always live on the friends. Their left friends are the right friends. And the most people are in the middle, but we don't control the narrative. The people in the middle don't control the narrative.

[00:42:01] It's either to have friends or the right friends. Yeah. I mean, I keep saying somebody isn't racist. Like Australia likes to say we're not a racist country. We are. If we keep saying we're not a racist country, we will never solve our deep, systemic and foundational racist roots. Yeah. Let us say we are racist. We need to look at how that can be ameliorated. How can we decolonize ourselves? And how can we uplift all of us?

[00:42:31] Because it benefits. This is the thing. It benefits all of us if we can uplift. That's just me. And so when Andrea says that Bebo wasn't racist, I think, well, he probably was like we all are. You know? And saying that we're not. You know? So, and that kind of moves to the next and last and final thing. After Bebo completes the barrel roll, like he says, he ends up crashing.

[00:42:59] And it's after this that once they start releasing the clips online and news articles, they start calling him the Sky King. It's really interesting because the left, they say the far left, clenches onto the white guy comment and starts to think, call him a white nationalist. And then the far right, the white nationalists start to raise him up. And they have his best friend and his brother reacting to stuff that I'm glad.

[00:43:26] I'm really glad they were pushing back on the white nationalist stuff. Thank God. Because at first they started pushing back on the left stuff. And I was like, yeah. But the brother says, the brother says, like, he was, he did not believe in one race. He's like, he says, we are traditional conservatives do not believe in the true race. And I just found this all very ironic. We're talking about classism and poor people.

[00:43:53] It's very ironic because the brother has a Trump hat on. He has a hat with Donald Trump on it, clicking the camera off. And I'm like, so you didn't learn from this. Because if white does not wash away poor, why are you siding with the billionaire who's giving cuts to the billionaires? Dad, did you notice this? Yeah, I noticed. Wow, man. It's just, I don't know. America got it. Going back to this.

[00:44:23] America got this thing now that they said, yeah, we were racist, but. But what? You are. You still are. You know? They want to say, but. They want to say, yeah, we were racist or we are racist, but. There's no but because we're not doing anything to fix it right now. We're trying to sugarcoat it and everything. Well, I'm getting ready to go off on a tangent. I'm not going to do that. Oh, please do. Okay, no.

[00:44:52] I got to stay focused because I'll get off this subject. Yeah. So, yes. His brother. I'm quite sure he was a racist. I'm quite sure he was. But what happens is a lot of times they tell themselves, I might be a racist, but I don't hate black people. It's an oxymoron. You can't support Donald Trump and not support. Racism.

[00:45:19] You can't support the man and not support his policies. I just don't see how you do it. I don't see how you square it because you turn yourself in a pretzel like you see congressmen do all day, every day on American TV. Yeah. They turn themselves in a pretzel not to piss him off and not to sound like they're racist when they already are racist and stuff.

[00:45:46] I just think that his brother, his brother didn't want to see his, he didn't. I think the brother didn't want to see his brother seen in that light. Yeah. Even though he didn't know it was. Oh. He's a racist. Go ahead. Yeah. Go ahead. You know, I don't have to say I'm not a murderer, right? Because I'm not a murderer.

[00:46:12] So anyone saying I'm not a pedophile, I'm not a rapist, I'm not a racist, you go, aren't you? Like, why do you feel the need to say it? What's that analogy about like, if you're at a rally and even one person has a Nazi flag, it is now a Nazi flag, you know?

[00:46:36] So it's like, because it's like, so, okay, we're saying Bebo is not a white nationalist, we're saying he's not a racist. But what does it say that his message connected with that side, that mentality with those people? Like, it doesn't, it doesn't, it doesn't work like that, Mari, when you're white. It just doesn't work like that.

[00:47:03] Take the rally on, you know, the so-called rally, not the ride. No, I'm talking about the one in D.C. The ride in D.C. that they call a rally. Oh, oh. If you were a part of that, you're still not a bad, yeah, exactly. Yeah, the insurrection. There you go. So I was a part of the Million Man March. I was a part of the Million Man March where there was no fighting, there was no killing. There was one.

[00:47:31] We even picked up the trash on there. We cleaned up behind ourselves. But yet, and still, that was a big deal for white people. Why did y'all have to show up there like that? There was a lot said about that. It was one of the most peaceful protests that you will ever find with a million black men talking about us. We didn't say nothing about the other races or anything.

[00:47:59] We were talking about what we had to do to better our community. It was the most beautiful thing I was ever a part of or I ever seen. And like I said, if there was no fighting, there was no tearing out windows, there was none of that stuff. But I digress. I don't want to. Yeah.

[00:48:20] And that's all I wanted to say because like at the end, they're left like kind of going over, I guess, his legacy and what the hashtag Sky King meant. And yeah, as the credits are rolling, we're seeing people on TikTok react to it. And even me, after watching this film and going on this ride, I'm like, I feel bad for Bebo. I really do.

[00:48:49] But I also am like, there are so many people who are undergoing these same type of hardships and they didn't hijack an airplane. You know what I'm saying? Like it's kind of like weird. Like luckily he didn't hurt anybody but himself. You know, that type of mentality, that type of failed provider mentality normally ends up in what happens when you get like family annihilators and stuff like that.

[00:49:12] So the fact that he only hurt himself is, you know. Don't forget the plane. Oh yeah, the plane. The plane. The short plane. Yeah. And I would push back a little bit and he didn't hurt nobody. But I think mentally, mentally he hurt a lot of people because they saw themselves in him. That's so true. They saw themselves in him.

[00:49:42] It might not have showed up on the statistics or nothing like that, but I think he probably hurt some people mentally and everything. Because his co-worker, the black gentleman, he was visibly hurt by everything that went on. Because he'd said to him, he'd left that job and he'd got another job and he'd said to Bebo, come and work where I work. You know, it's so much better.

[00:50:08] But, you know, we get one of the brothers and I think also the best friend Chris talking about, oh, men don't talk about their feelings. And we need to talk about our feelings. But do you and are you? And that is not the message that the internet got. The internet they're talking about, oh, he did all these acrobatics in the air and finally did a barrel roll. He didn't do any acrobatics except the barrel roll. No, exactly.

[00:50:31] And it's like the spectacle of it washes away the thoughtful, passionate, confused discussions, like we've been having today, that we need to have about mental health and about men and their emotional access and being allowed to. I mean, this is a tangent, but somebody just got fired for being rude about an athlete celebrating in a way that he didn't like.

[00:50:58] He doesn't mind all the men who throw balls and shout and punch the air and jump and scream. But a man doing a dance because he does the sport really, really well is offensive to him. Luckily, he was fired. But this is the things that we should be talking about. We should be talking about racism. We should be talking about class. We should be talking about why are we giving power to these people that hurt us personally and socially and politically.

[00:51:24] So, I mean, I know it's too much for me to ask the internet to be serious for one minute and have a thoughtful discussion, but they got it so wrong. Well, certainly the clips that Patricia showed us were so wrong. And so maybe that was her point. Yeah, I completely agree. His brother, my final thought on this is his brother got a wake-up call. The one that's not racist and all that other stuff.

[00:51:50] When he saw that the far right was benefiting from his brother's death by selling t-shirts and stuff like that. That was the same one, I think. It wasn't the same one? It wasn't? I think it was. Yeah. But the same people that he would probably relate to were benefiting from his brother's death.

[00:52:13] And so that should tell you how much they think about you when they take your brother's death and monetize it. Yeah. And memorialize it for something that they say he didn't believe. And I mean, I do believe what Andrea says about the situation. Dad, how many magnifying glasses are you going to rate? Hashtag Sky King out of a possible five.

[00:52:45] I'm going to give it four. Sarah, how about you? How many magnifying glasses are you going to rate Sky King? Well, of course, you know, I want to give it five because historically that's what we've given Patricia. It's riveting. It's infuriating. I couldn't not watch it. It is not a two-screener. It's definitely you are right in there. It was a story I didn't know. And it was a story very well told.

[00:53:13] I do think, and I absolutely noticed the same thing that the two of you did, cutting the cameras at the exact moment that the cameras should have continued filming. Kevin Flynn from Crime Writers On talks about a documentarian either betrays their subjects or betrays their audience. And I think in that moment, Patricia, you betrayed us in order not to betray your subjects.

[00:53:36] Because you cut the cameras at their request, which we would say, that's a good thing, that's respectful and all of that. You betrayed us because we were at the exact moment of discomfort that I've been asking us to all sit in, you know, some of us more than others. So I'm struggling with giving her less than five. So I'm going to say four and a half. Probably should be four, but I'm going to say four and a half. How about you, Nari?

[00:54:03] I'm going to give her a four because production-wise, I love the storyboarding of the audio and stuff like that. It was the reenactment and the following the family stuff that I was like, this is odd and I don't need this. So the reenactment with just seeing the back of the head of the person who's supposed to be portraying Andrew and stuff like that, that wasn't too bad.

[00:54:25] The reenactment of, you know, him in the plane was all behind the, you know, camera looking at the person from the behind, pretending that they're doing whatever as the recording is playing over. I was like, sure, whatever. But what really kind of pissed me off is we're watching his mom, Karen, drive his car to random places. Like, why is she staring at the Virgin Mary statue holding Jesus?

[00:54:51] Why are we watching his brother, one of his brothers, at a shooting range? Then we see the other brother pick up a dead bird for some reason. He's just staring at a dead bird. It's symbolic. And then just puts it straight in the bin. At the same moment, like, it just doesn't make any sense. I was like, what are we doing here? Oh, I wiped all that out of my brain. You're absolutely right, Mari. I'm coming down to a four. Yeah, it was, I mean.

[00:55:21] That was the only thing. It was very good use of the audio, but I understand this is a visual medium. So she had to figure out what she's going to fill those spaces with other than the audio. And the whole shots of, like, Karen getting on the plane and the camera's dead on her face as she's, like, crying as she's getting on the plane. I was like, okay. It was just, it was a lot. It was a lot. I was just like, what are we doing right now? We didn't need it. You're absolutely right. We didn't need it.

[00:55:49] I don't know what to suggest we could have put there, but I don't think we needed it. I think we could have figured something else. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But again, overall, very good. I do recommend it. Again, yeah. But yeah, it was just like, it's too much. It was too much in some parts. And I was like, I really didn't need this. But again, I definitely would recommend it. Um, but again, for me, it was unsettling the whole time watching.

[00:56:17] My anxiety was through the roof, literally the whole entire time. And I think I've talked about it before, but the things that most unsettle me normally in true crime is listening to tapes, watching videotapes, like the listening to people's final minutes. That really just is what really just unnerves me. So I know this is a, that was a me thing.

[00:56:42] Like listening to the last hour of somebody's life is not pleasant to me, but I think it was very thoughtfully done. And I thought it was, I thought it was needed. I think playing the whole thing was definitely, definitely needed. So yeah, strong, strong recommend from me. Sarah, what do you have to recommend to our listeners? Well, I'm recommending another documentary by Patricia Gillespie, The Fire That Took Her on Paramount+.

[00:57:10] In 2015, Judy Malinowski's abusing, controlling partner, Michael Slager, poured petrol over her and set her on fire. She was expected to die within days, but she lived for two years in debilitating pain. And she was able to give a deposition from her hospital bed so that when she died days after the deposition, her testimony could be used in Slager's trial for her murder. And so this is legally very, a very interesting case.

[00:57:38] It's a very pitiable case. If like Mari, you don't like to see the last few moments of someone's life, do not watch this. It's very graphic. It does not hold back from showing us Judy. She was burnt over 85% of her body. I won't describe her injuries. If you're not going to be able to look at that, don't look at that. But after the first shock, I was honored to sit with Judy and hear her speak about it.

[00:58:06] So that's a big recommend from me with a big but. And that but is if you are not going to be able to look at that, don't. Because that's an image that will stay in your mind. And what about you, Mari? What have you got to recommend? I want to recommend Michael. I went and saw the new Michael Jackson biopic. I went and saw that. It was amazing. As dad knows, Michael Jackson is my favorite artist of all time.

[00:58:34] So the movie was absolutely amazing. And me and Chappelle talked about it on Recap Kickback. We had a great discussion because we are two stans. Like Chappelle has a Michael Jackson jacket that he wore there. So if you want to hear two stans of Michael Jackson talk about the Michael biopic, you can go to youtube.com slash at Recap Kickback to watch us on YouTube and go to recapkickback.com

[00:59:04] to subscribe to hear us talk about it. It was just nonstop gushing over that movie. So yeah, very, very fun. Wow. At Crime Scene, we are eager to hear your feedback and suggestions for future episodes. You can subscribe by going to crimeseenpod.com or search Crime Scene. That's S-E-E-N wherever you get your podcasts. You can follow Crime Scene everywhere at Crime Scene Pod or email us at crimeseenpod at gmail.com.

[00:59:32] You can support us at buymeacoffee.com slash crime scene pod. Sing us a couple bucks or join our monthly membership. Members receive episodes early and ad free as well as other bonus content. Big thanks to Megan who has just joined us at the forensic investigator level. Thanks Megan. Along with all our other members, Megan now has access to five full exclusive episodes as well as our monthly watch list so you can get ahead of your homework.

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[01:00:29] Doug, what do you have going on and where can the people find you? Okay. Okay. I am still with Gents Making Sense. We have episodes dropping every week. We not only have four episodes, but we have at least six to ten shorts going on with it. And we're discussing what's important to African-American Black men in particular, what's going on in the world. And we always discuss the subject that people like to stay away from.

[01:00:59] Now, this week, we will be talking about the supposedly assassination attempt on our president. So we'll be talking about that. Let the tips fall where they may. Yeah. So, yeah. Yeah. If you want some of that hard-hitting, unfiltered opinions. Yeah. That's what it is. Our opinion. We're right. Yeah.

[01:01:28] Gents Making Sense. Gents Making Sense. Yeah. Informed. Informed opinions. Can you plug the YouTube? Oh, yeah. My YouTube channel. Our YouTube channel is at Gents Making Sense. Spelt just like it said. And we also have Spotify. Hashtag Gents MS. Gents MS. There you go. Sarah, what do you have going on and where can people find you? The people can follow me on Blue Sky at Sarah Carradine.

[01:01:58] I'm covering the Trader's Turkey A on Babes in the Conclave with Annabelle Fidler. So come and join us over there. It's pretty wild. Those Turkish celebrities are something else. I think they think they're on Big Brother. What about you, Mari? I know that people want to find you. You can find me over on Blue Sky at MariTalksTooMuch. That's two, like the number two. Like I said, you can find me on Recap Kickback every week with Chappelle. I will also be on the Black Girls Talking TV.

[01:02:27] I'm talking Survivor. So a lot going on. And of course, I'm making cups. And soon you'll be able to buy Crime Scene cups on my website. You can go to MariCraftsTooMuch.BigCartel.com. I'm sure we'll put it in the show notes. Sarah, what are we watching next week? Next time on Crime Scene, we're covering My Killer Father, The Green Hollow Murders.

[01:02:56] And Katie from A Date with Dateline will be joining us to talk about that, as well as the untold episode, The Shooting on Hawthorne Hill. Thanks to my dad, Tony Cox, for joining us. Will from America for the theme music. And all the people out there who are working jobs that aren't getting paid what they should, but who are trying to change their lives for the better. Until next time, case closed.