Crime Seen | Episode 118: Taken Together: Who Killed Lyric and Elizabeth

[00:00:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Hello everyone, I'm Sarah Karadine podcasting from unceded Gadigal land.

[00:00:29] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm Mari Forth.

[00:00:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is Crime Seen, the true crime review podcast where we get to the heart of how true

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_01]: crime stories are told.

[00:00:37] [SPEAKER_01]: You can get this show along with all the other fantastic Reality TV content by subscribing

[00:00:42] [SPEAKER_01]: to RobHasAwebsite.com.

[00:00:46] [SPEAKER_01]: We know Reality TV.

[00:00:48] [SPEAKER_03]: We'd love it if you were subscribed to our dedicated feed as well.

[00:00:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Please go to RobHasAwebsite.com slash Crime Feed.

[00:00:56] [SPEAKER_03]: You'll get your true crime on Tuesdays.

[00:00:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Last week we watched Daughters with Chantel Francis and Latanya Starks.

[00:01:03] [SPEAKER_03]: The documentary made Crime Seen History.

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_03]: It was the first to receive six magnifying glasses out of five from the whole panel.

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_03]: So if you haven't seen it and you haven't listened to that episode, go watch the documentary

[00:01:17] [SPEAKER_03]: and then go listen to our episode.

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah.

[00:01:19] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it was extraordinary.

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_01]: We had a great tweet from Joelle.

[00:01:23] [SPEAKER_01]: They say, my goodness, this was so powerful to watch and then listen to the impactful

[00:01:29] [SPEAKER_01]: conversation, purple heart.

[00:01:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks, Joelle.

[00:01:33] [SPEAKER_01]: We're so glad you liked the documentary and very grateful that you listened to us.

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_01]: It certainly a lot of tissues were used that day from all four of us.

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And while I was editing it, some more tissues had to come out.

[00:01:47] [SPEAKER_01]: So yeah, it was very, very powerful.

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:01:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Sarah, what did we watch this week?

[00:01:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Last week we announced we were going to be watching Worst Ex Ever.

[00:01:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Don't worry, it's still coming.

[00:01:58] [SPEAKER_01]: We are making Jason Reid do it with us, kicking and screaming

[00:02:03] [SPEAKER_01]: because we wanted to cover a very interesting documentary, which I passed over

[00:02:09] [SPEAKER_01]: because it is unsolved and I know how you feel about that, Mari.

[00:02:14] [SPEAKER_01]: But we watched Taken Together Who Killed Lyric and Elizabeth.

[00:02:18] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a three-part documentary series on Max in the US and Benj in Australia.

[00:02:23] [SPEAKER_01]: It was directed by cinematographer and first time director, Dylan Syres.

[00:02:28] [SPEAKER_01]: And of course, we cannot do it alone.

[00:02:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Joining us is a woman who turned her love and hatred of reality TV into a career.

[00:02:36] [SPEAKER_01]: We know all about that.

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Hey, Mari from Pink Shade Podcast.

[00:02:40] [SPEAKER_01]: It's Mary Payne Gilbert.

[00:02:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Hello, Mary Payne.

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Hey, y'all, thank you for having me.

[00:02:44] [SPEAKER_00]: This is like this is super fun.

[00:02:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I never get to talk about crime.

[00:02:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, crime's not fun, but talking about crime can be fun. Right?

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Right. We try and make it as fun as we can.

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_02]: As comedic as we can.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, unless we're crying about daughters.

[00:03:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, so we're moving on, moving on.

[00:03:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I won't ask you about that.

[00:03:05] [SPEAKER_00]: What tell me about this daughter's documentary because I don't know about it.

[00:03:08] [SPEAKER_00]: Where was it? Where did it go? Where can I find it?

[00:03:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Even better, you'll love this.

[00:03:13] [SPEAKER_03]: It was a it's on Netflix.

[00:03:14] [SPEAKER_03]: OK, and it was it follows incarcerated fathers here in D.C.

[00:03:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Who they they joined a 10 week program where once they finish a 10 week program,

[00:03:25] [SPEAKER_03]: they get to do a father daughter dance

[00:03:27] [SPEAKER_03]: hosted like in the jail by this organization.

[00:03:33] [SPEAKER_03]: What was the name of the organization?

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_03]: So girls for a change girls for a change.

[00:03:38] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. So so it followed the incarcerated fathers

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_03]: as they went through their program and then it also followed four of their daughters

[00:03:46] [SPEAKER_03]: getting ready to do the father daughter dance.

[00:03:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, my gosh.

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, you know, I come for love after a lock up on my show

[00:03:53] [SPEAKER_00]: and and also inmate to remade and also prison brides.

[00:03:57] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm well worse in the prisoner life.

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And yeah, I don't know that would you'll love it.

[00:04:04] [SPEAKER_00]: If it's uplifting, that would be good for me.

[00:04:06] [SPEAKER_03]: It is. It's very uplifting.

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_03]: It's very. Yeah, it's it's a lot.

[00:04:11] [SPEAKER_03]: And the documentarian followed them over like years, like a span of years.

[00:04:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, not just like for this one.

[00:04:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that's what was so I thought it was going to be, you know,

[00:04:20] [SPEAKER_01]: emotional and and uplifting.

[00:04:22] [SPEAKER_01]: And in my mind, you know, we we get to the dance.

[00:04:26] [SPEAKER_01]: We have the dance. Yeah. That's it.

[00:04:28] [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no, no, there's another 30 minutes of the documentary afterwards.

[00:04:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And that 30 minutes is vital for us to see vital for the success of the documentary.

[00:04:39] [SPEAKER_01]: OK, I'm watching it. I'm going to watch it.

[00:04:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Watch it now.

[00:04:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Not right this minute.

[00:04:47] [SPEAKER_03]: Right. I immediately tell us what you think.

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Please send us a speak pipe and we'll play it on next week's show.

[00:04:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And tell them you love me.

[00:04:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Keisha, my co-host, I have a rotating co-host,

[00:05:00] [SPEAKER_00]: but Keisha was a rotating co-host and she and I were like, oh, yeah,

[00:05:03] [SPEAKER_00]: what we didn't have one week love after lockup wasn't on.

[00:05:05] [SPEAKER_00]: I go, why don't we watch this documentary?

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, it looks great.

[00:05:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And she's been a social worker in the school systems.

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_00]: And so she's like, yeah, after we both watched it, she wrote me and she was

[00:05:14] [SPEAKER_00]: like, it's your podcast.

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm not going to tell you what to do.

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_00]: But I go, no, no, no, we are not covering this.

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_00]: This is upsetting. Oh, upsetting.

[00:05:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Traumatic. We shouted.

[00:05:26] [SPEAKER_01]: We shouted.

[00:05:28] [SPEAKER_01]: We swore was a lot of

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_00]: we did hear the net and the net net did the net net.

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_00]: How many magnifying glasses did it get?

[00:05:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And do you believe her?

[00:05:39] [SPEAKER_03]: I kidding.

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I I don't remember how many magnifying glasses we got, but we we trashed her.

[00:05:46] [SPEAKER_03]: Like we did absolutely trashed her.

[00:05:48] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I have never been so angry in my entire life.

[00:05:55] [SPEAKER_00]: I went when she's when she was later, you know, in the real time,

[00:06:00] [SPEAKER_00]: when they were talking during current time, she seemed so smart and so normal.

[00:06:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And then we were going back and forth with the story.

[00:06:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, oh, wait, no, what? No.

[00:06:10] [SPEAKER_00]: What? And then she did what?

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_00]: What? Oh my God.

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_00]: So upsetting.

[00:06:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't even know what to think about that whole thing.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh my God.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_00]: When you go back and listen to your episode, then you can tell me what to think.

[00:06:21] [SPEAKER_01]: I'll say I'll send it to you, Marypane.

[00:06:23] [SPEAKER_01]: It was it was, you know, we were full of the righteous fire of indignation.

[00:06:31] [SPEAKER_03]: Good. You could not believe we were like, what are we watching here?

[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Like I've never put like I've never been more prepared unprepared

[00:06:38] [SPEAKER_03]: for a documentary in my life.

[00:06:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't know it was going to go that way.

[00:06:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought it was a love story.

[00:06:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I didn't know it was going to go the way it went.

[00:06:44] [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, wait, what?

[00:06:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh my God.

[00:06:47] [SPEAKER_01]: You'll hear when you listen to our documentary.

[00:06:49] [SPEAKER_01]: But for me, I approached it like, oh, you know, rights of disabled people.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Sure. Of course.

[00:06:54] [SPEAKER_01]: To be sexual beings, to have as much autonomy,

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, mental and emotional autonomy, you know, blah, blah, blah.

[00:07:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And then we meet her.

[00:07:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And then we meet his family.

[00:07:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's like, Mary and I do not like listening from the perpetrator

[00:07:10] [SPEAKER_01]: listening to the perpetrator and time given to the perpetrator,

[00:07:12] [SPEAKER_01]: but essential in this case for her to take that shovel

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_01]: and start digging and start digging.

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_01]: And as she got lower and lower, she just kept thinking, dig up, dig up.

[00:07:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Except she never thought she was in the wrong.

[00:07:25] [SPEAKER_00]: She's never. No, she didn't.

[00:07:27] [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, that brother was like Harvard educated lawyer.

[00:07:30] [SPEAKER_00]: And he was like, he to me was so impressive because he's like,

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm trying to explain to you in calm, educated terms what happened here.

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_00]: I worked in this system with them, I can tell you

[00:07:44] [SPEAKER_00]: from his own life experience and his education

[00:07:47] [SPEAKER_00]: that I thought his part in it was so powerful.

[00:07:50] [SPEAKER_00]: If he wasn't around, it was just the mom.

[00:07:52] [SPEAKER_00]: People might be like, oh, the mom just doesn't want her like over baby or whatever.

[00:07:56] [SPEAKER_00]: But I thought the brother played a huge role in it.

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, very, very cute too.

[00:08:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Very cute.

[00:08:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, too.

[00:08:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And we talked about this, the fact that the mother and the brother

[00:08:10] [SPEAKER_01]: had to visibly restrain themselves.

[00:08:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And I thought, yes, they're trying to they are trying to

[00:08:17] [SPEAKER_01]: not fit into a white space, but.

[00:08:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Cross that barrier that is there

[00:08:25] [SPEAKER_01]: by taking on the way that white people want this stuff to be to be communicated.

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I yeah, I did.

[00:08:32] [SPEAKER_00]: You could tell that they were very much trying to to conduct themselves

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_00]: so perfectly so that they would be heard.

[00:08:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. Yes.

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I think if it was just that mom and you didn't have the brothers, the backup,

[00:08:45] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if it would have been heard as much because it would have just been

[00:08:49] [SPEAKER_00]: like, well, she's no, she's the mom.

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Purp. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:08:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. I they didn't dive deep on how much the police

[00:08:57] [SPEAKER_03]: like really believe them, but they but they did believe them enough

[00:09:01] [SPEAKER_03]: for to get the case and her to get convicted and stuff like that.

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_03]: So that's all that matters.

[00:09:06] [SPEAKER_03]: But like you said, who knows what it really, really took to get that?

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Get there, but she's just out in the world.

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_00]: Just probably working for therapy dot com.

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, she's not going to teach anymore and she had a waitressing job

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_01]: but she lost it and we're apparently supposed to be so feel sorry for her.

[00:09:25] [SPEAKER_04]: Yeah.

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, yes.

[00:09:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I'm I can I can understand exactly why your co has said,

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if we should be.

[00:09:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, you're right.

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_00]: This is this is not going to fit into our fun love after lockup Monday slot

[00:09:39] [SPEAKER_00]: very easily. So no.

[00:09:40] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm so sorry.

[00:09:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I said I tracked the whole thing, but first I wanted to know about daughters

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_00]: because you're so passionate about it.

[00:09:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And then I wanted to speak to somebody else in the world who watched.

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_00]: So you love me.

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_00]: No problem.

[00:09:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry about it all.

[00:09:54] [SPEAKER_01]: So why don't you?

[00:09:56] [SPEAKER_01]: This is the first time you're here.

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Very pain. Welcome to crime scene.

[00:10:00] [SPEAKER_01]: What is your true crime origin story?

[00:10:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you watch a lot of true crime

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_01]: and what started you on the path if you did?

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I watch everything.

[00:10:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm upset that I haven't heard about daughters,

[00:10:09] [SPEAKER_00]: but I I watch everything and I get very nervous when a new thing is coming out.

[00:10:16] [SPEAKER_00]: Like the Scott Peterson, there's like two documentaries that have come out

[00:10:18] [SPEAKER_00]: that I have not had time to watch.

[00:10:20] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's giving me an uneasy feeling that I'm behind.

[00:10:23] [SPEAKER_00]: I have heard several podcasters talking about it,

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_00]: but that's not enough.

[00:10:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I need to see it for myself.

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I watch everything.

[00:10:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that I don't know what year it was

[00:10:32] [SPEAKER_00]: that the John Benet thing happened,

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_00]: the kidnapping, the murder or the whatever.

[00:10:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Six. OK, so I would have been right out of college at that.

[00:10:43] [SPEAKER_00]: No, not right out of college for me.

[00:10:45] [SPEAKER_00]: No, I would have been four or five years out of college.

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_00]: It was just born. I was barely born.

[00:10:49] [SPEAKER_00]: But I was post college and I remember seeing it was constantly on the nightly news.

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Right? We didn't have so much seeing and was around, but not so much.

[00:10:59] [SPEAKER_00]: So it wasn't 24 seven, you know, and I was so fascinated by it.

[00:11:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, why can't they figure out who did this?

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I don't know if that was my jumping off point into, you know,

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_00]: watching every dateline, every 48 hours, any nightline, whatever it was,

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_00]: unsolved mysteries, whenever that was on.

[00:11:20] [SPEAKER_00]: I'd from or watching that like in high school.

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And I then started my old podcast called Pain in the Pod

[00:11:26] [SPEAKER_00]: where I interviewed podcasters and the only podcasters

[00:11:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I wanted to interview were true kind podcasters and reality podcasters

[00:11:33] [SPEAKER_00]: because those are my interests.

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I was like every so often something else would slip in there.

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_00]: But I have always had a fascination.

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it's a I think I was being Southern.

[00:11:44] [SPEAKER_00]: There's so there's a murder in my own family way back.

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Nobody that I knew way back.

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm fascinated by that.

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_00]: I just didn't like every time there's anything in your own town

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_00]: when you're a teenager and you hear the parents talking about it

[00:11:57] [SPEAKER_00]: like you want to know.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's always been my jam between that and when the real world started.

[00:12:04] [SPEAKER_00]: You can't you can't tell me anything about anything.

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Now I'm like, I'm just a reality TV and that's all I love.

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. How do you go with the I mean, all murder is sad and bad.

[00:12:16] [SPEAKER_01]: But how do you go with the the darker stuff that we as I was telling you

[00:12:20] [SPEAKER_01]: before we started recording, we have a little handful of people who come on

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_01]: for the nice crimes, the food crimes and the and the entertainment industry crimes.

[00:12:29] [SPEAKER_01]: And we have an even smaller group who come on for the very dark stuff

[00:12:33] [SPEAKER_01]: that we trust to be able to, you know, that we can look after each other

[00:12:37] [SPEAKER_01]: just to peek behind the curtains.

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Everyone we do look after it rather than when we're when we're watching this

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_01]: stuff and we do check in because that kind of of particularly when you watch

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_01]: so much of it, Mari, as we do now probably as much as we would.

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_01]: But we have to go into it much more deep because we're taking notes

[00:12:54] [SPEAKER_01]: and we're thinking about it and we talk about it.

[00:12:56] [SPEAKER_01]: How do you marry pain?

[00:12:57] [SPEAKER_01]: How do you go with that darker sexual sadism appalling deaths?

[00:13:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And in this case, as I wrote to you, it's child murder.

[00:13:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Are you OK with that? I mean, not OK with obviously, I'm not OK with child murder.

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_01]: You heard it here, everybody.

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Let's get that straight.

[00:13:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Not on my list of things that I'm OK with.

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_00]: But no, I don't.

[00:13:19] [SPEAKER_00]: I I I really love and like I said, from being from the South,

[00:13:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it is the storytelling that is in me.

[00:13:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm from Mississippi.

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_00]: It's just, you know, sit on the porch, tell stories.

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I was an English lit major in a town that focused on William

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Faulkner. That's my thing.

[00:13:33] [SPEAKER_00]: That's my thing is the storytelling.

[00:13:35] [SPEAKER_00]: So I love a true crime documentary because I love the storytelling of it.

[00:13:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Sometimes it's like with the murder case or whatever, you know what happened.

[00:13:44] [SPEAKER_00]: But to see the documentary and you get so many little pieces

[00:13:48] [SPEAKER_00]: and the question of how do you sort of watch it and not get so upset about it?

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, my husband's always like, why are you watching this?

[00:13:56] [SPEAKER_00]: This any means that if it's the real housewives or if it's a murder

[00:13:59] [SPEAKER_00]: document, why are you watching this?

[00:14:02] [SPEAKER_00]: This is terrible. You know, it's to him, it's equally bad.

[00:14:05] [SPEAKER_00]: And I don't know.

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's because I'm always hoping that the bad guy gets what he deserves,

[00:14:13] [SPEAKER_00]: gets caught in prison for life.

[00:14:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Somebody like takes him out in prison, always hoping for that.

[00:14:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And I'm always hoping for some justice for the families.

[00:14:22] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm always at the end of the story.

[00:14:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm always hoping something good happens at this particular documentary

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_00]: that we watched at the end.

[00:14:29] [SPEAKER_00]: I did feel a little bit better, a little bit better

[00:14:33] [SPEAKER_00]: that maybe they're going to figure it out.

[00:14:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Maybe. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:14:39] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. So just, you know, just a warning to our listeners as you've guessed,

[00:14:43] [SPEAKER_01]: we're going to be talking about child murders.

[00:14:44] [SPEAKER_01]: So if that's not for you today, I hope you've enjoyed hearing

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Mary Paine talk and you can switch off and hear her another time

[00:14:51] [SPEAKER_01]: when she comes back.

[00:14:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, another time on something that's a little bit more your style.

[00:14:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Mm hmm.

[00:14:59] [SPEAKER_01]: So, Murray, let's get to the crime here in 2012 crimes, shall I say?

[00:15:05] [SPEAKER_01]: In 2012, cousins Lyric Cook-Morrisey, who was 10 years old

[00:15:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and Elizabeth Collins, who was eight were abducted in Evansville, Iowa.

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Their bodies were found by a hunter in a remote wildlife area five months later.

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Filmmaker Dylan Sires was a local news photographer at the time of their disappearance

[00:15:23] [SPEAKER_01]: and beginning in 2017, he made this series filming over seven years

[00:15:28] [SPEAKER_01]: and continuing to interview his subjects and follow potential leads.

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Ten months after their abduction, another pair of girls was taken.

[00:15:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Desi Hughes, who was 12 at the time,

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and Kathleen Shepherd, who remains 15 as she was at the time of her death.

[00:15:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Desi escaped their captor.

[00:15:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Kathleen was brutally killed.

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_01]: The perpetrator, Michael Klunder, completed suicide before he could be apprehended.

[00:15:56] [SPEAKER_01]: In 2017, Abigail Williams, 13 years old and Liberty,

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Jermaine, 14 were abducted and killed in Delphi, Indiana.

[00:16:06] [SPEAKER_01]: In October 2022, Richard Allen was arrested and charged with two counts

[00:16:10] [SPEAKER_01]: of murder for their deaths.

[00:16:12] [SPEAKER_01]: His trial is scheduled for October of this year.

[00:16:15] [SPEAKER_01]: In both those instances, Tyre Stolyrick and Elizabeth's case were circumstantial.

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Murray, we've covered two other documentaries in our Who Killed series,

[00:16:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Who Killed Robert Won and Who Killed Jill Dando, both with Matt Scott.

[00:16:33] [SPEAKER_01]: Both documentaries failed to answer the question in the title

[00:16:36] [SPEAKER_01]: and we were also a little tepid on both of these properties.

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_01]: How do you feel about this docu-series by comparison

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_01]: given that we don't have a definitive answer here either?

[00:16:47] [SPEAKER_03]: I actually did really like this docu-series

[00:16:51] [SPEAKER_03]: because I feel like we got really good procedure.

[00:16:56] [SPEAKER_03]: I feel like nothing.

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Surprisingly, I felt like nothing was just inserted at random.

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, honestly, when the Delphi murders pop up in what episode,

[00:17:07] [SPEAKER_03]: end of episode two, beginning of episode three, I was like, oh snap.

[00:17:11] [SPEAKER_03]: You know what I'm saying?

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Like it felt different.

[00:17:14] [SPEAKER_03]: What was so other than the one property?

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_03]: What was we just covered two properties just like this,

[00:17:19] [SPEAKER_03]: the one with the grandparent, right?

[00:17:22] [SPEAKER_03]: The girl who thought her grandfather was a murderer.

[00:17:25] [SPEAKER_01]: It's funny how we've watched that title from our minds and can never think of it.

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes. Something about a picture or life, a life picture or something.

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh, no, we love that. A life in pictures.

[00:17:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Was that that was a good one?

[00:17:39] [SPEAKER_03]: That was the good one.

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_03]: See, this is when we watch too much stuff.

[00:17:42] [SPEAKER_03]: And then one that we just watched like two weeks ago,

[00:17:46] [SPEAKER_03]: where I was like, why did you like waste my time with this tangent?

[00:17:50] [SPEAKER_03]: As opposed to those, I think this one.

[00:17:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Sasha Reid. Oh, God, Sasha.

[00:17:55] [SPEAKER_03]: That's Sasha Reid. Oh, my God.

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_00]: That's the one you were trying to get me to watch.

[00:18:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. You dodged a bullet if you're.

[00:18:03] [SPEAKER_00]: Okay. I didn't. I didn't.

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't watch it.

[00:18:06] [SPEAKER_03]: A big, big bullet. Yes.

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_03]: All right. Exactly.

[00:18:09] [SPEAKER_03]: So like this, I thought was very interesting.

[00:18:12] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's called taken together and they talk about how double abductions,

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_03]: how like basically how rare double abductions are.

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_03]: Like for some reason, as a true crime person, it's like you think

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_03]: you kind of think like, oh, you hear those stories.

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_03]: They happen all the time.

[00:18:28] [SPEAKER_03]: But to say that only 17, like there's only been like 17 double abductions

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_03]: like since the 1970s in the U.S.

[00:18:37] [SPEAKER_03]: And then that two of them happened within a 10 month span in Iowa.

[00:18:43] [SPEAKER_03]: And then like the Delphi ones were, I think, 18.

[00:18:47] [SPEAKER_03]: I think they said in this document, it's so interesting.

[00:18:50] [SPEAKER_03]: That is interesting to me, because I don't think I've ever heard

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_03]: anybody talk about and break down double abductions like this

[00:18:58] [SPEAKER_03]: doc you this docu series did.

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_03]: So it brought new light to crime statistic.

[00:19:04] [SPEAKER_03]: I didn't know. I didn't know this case at all.

[00:19:08] [SPEAKER_03]: And then, of course, Sarah, the the the multiple interviews over time,

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_03]: you know how we do.

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_03]: I knew you'd love that.

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_03]: Last week, like I love the multiple interviews over time.

[00:19:19] [SPEAKER_03]: I like how they were perfectly labeled.

[00:19:21] [SPEAKER_03]: We saw like Elizabeth's mom, like one, two, three,

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_03]: like 2015, 2019, 2022.

[00:19:31] [SPEAKER_03]: We saw yeah.

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_03]: So we just saw the different talking heads in different time periods

[00:19:35] [SPEAKER_03]: and it was easily distinguishable, easily marked.

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I thought that was so interesting.

[00:19:42] [SPEAKER_03]: And then not only did he do that, though,

[00:19:45] [SPEAKER_03]: but he interspersed the stories as they were telling it,

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_03]: which I thought was very genius and honestly would have been great

[00:19:51] [SPEAKER_03]: if kind of somebody was lying.

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_03]: Like if we had a jinx moment and so I was lying.

[00:19:56] [SPEAKER_03]: But I was waiting for it.

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_03]: I was waiting for it.

[00:20:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I was waiting for it.

[00:20:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Mary, came up with your overall thoughts before we dive in.

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought it was really well done.

[00:20:06] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that you're right.

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I think the way that they put it together

[00:20:11] [SPEAKER_00]: thematically was great and the way that they went through it

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_00]: so that at the end of one episode, you're getting now,

[00:20:18] [SPEAKER_00]: there's this other thing at the end of the next episode.

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, when they brought the Delphi thing, I was like,

[00:20:22] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I didn't see that coming.

[00:20:23] [SPEAKER_00]: But of course, also double abduction.

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Like you're saying, thinking about double abduction.

[00:20:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I think that probably plenty of people try to do a double abduction.

[00:20:33] [SPEAKER_00]: But one kid is like, no, no.

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_00]: And the other kids like I need a ride, you know, or one kid,

[00:20:39] [SPEAKER_00]: maybe their parents had voices in their head and they go,

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_00]: No, I'm not going to do that.

[00:20:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And the other kids like, well, what, you know, what could go wrong?

[00:20:47] [SPEAKER_00]: And of course, you know, I grew up in the 70s.

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_00]: So I mean, I would have gotten in a car with anybody.

[00:20:52] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I didn't know.

[00:20:54] [SPEAKER_00]: So it was interesting to me that I did go back to it at one point

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_00]: and like, what year was this? What year was this?

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_00]: Because when they were showing like the mom, Misty

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_00]: and Lyric and the bed and like, I love you and all this.

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, wait, they had cell phones.

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_00]: So I had to like go back and rewind.

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I was thinking 2012.

[00:21:15] [SPEAKER_00]: But they were 10 and eight.

[00:21:17] [SPEAKER_00]: So they had been born 2012.

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_00]: They were born in 2002 and 2004.

[00:21:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Four. So my kids are 2003, 2005.

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_00]: So I do a lot of that when it's like, OK, so that's the same age as my kids.

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_00]: And my kids very easily would have been on their bikes to ride.

[00:21:37] [SPEAKER_00]: Now, I wouldn't let them go half a mile away.

[00:21:40] [SPEAKER_00]: But I'd be like, you can ride your bikes down to the

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_00]: 10th course at the end of the neighborhood or whatever.

[00:21:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. Yeah. I do that a lot.

[00:21:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I kind of in my mind like, OK, well, they had cell phones.

[00:21:50] [SPEAKER_00]: So it must have been around the age of my kids.

[00:21:52] [SPEAKER_00]: The double abduction thing was fascinating.

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_00]: But I think that if you put a statistic next to it of how often two people are

[00:21:59] [SPEAKER_00]: together and one goes and one doesn't, then you would have a maybe a different view on it.

[00:22:05] [SPEAKER_03]: It's just so weird because we

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_03]: the one with the grandfather where the girl thought her grandfather was a killer

[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_03]: that had a double abduction in it.

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_03]: Remember, Sarah, like two girls were abducted from a skating rink

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_03]: and were found murdered together.

[00:22:21] [SPEAKER_03]: Like it feels like that it doesn't feel as rare, you know?

[00:22:26] [SPEAKER_01]: It's interesting for me because this these are all children.

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_01]: These these ones that we're talking about.

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_01]: The my brush with the serial killer is as early listeners.

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_01]: If you if you have been with us since day one, you'll know the story.

[00:22:42] [SPEAKER_01]: The serial killer who tried to try to kill me and my friend, Ivan Malat.

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_01]: He he was a double abductor, but he double abducted adults.

[00:22:52] [SPEAKER_01]: And what's fascinating and why my friend, Alison, shout out, Alison.

[00:22:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And I know that it was him who tried to get us is someone did escape.

[00:23:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And so we know his M.O.

[00:23:04] [SPEAKER_01]: But he took pairs of adults, which was what made the investigations

[00:23:09] [SPEAKER_01]: drag behind because it was pairs of adults going missing.

[00:23:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Did they go missing together?

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Have they run off because you never think of a single person

[00:23:19] [SPEAKER_01]: being able to control right two children, let alone two adults.

[00:23:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. And this is this is where in episode two, we're bouncing around a little bit.

[00:23:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's let's discuss.

[00:23:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So episode one goes from their disappearance to finding the bodies.

[00:23:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Misty and Dan, the parents of Lyric come under suspicion and scruziny

[00:23:39] [SPEAKER_01]: because they have they have body backgrounds, backgrounds and there's meth.

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_01]: But as Dan says, he only cooked the meth for himself.

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_01]: He wasn't, you know, and the way the media and the police then treated them

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_01]: as noncooperative.

[00:23:54] [SPEAKER_01]: It's that thing that we see, Mary Payne, about what is the affect

[00:23:59] [SPEAKER_01]: of the husband, the parents, the boyfriend, the girlfriend

[00:24:04] [SPEAKER_01]: and that being judged sometimes correctly.

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_01]: But in this case, we think not.

[00:24:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And then episode one finishes with their bodies being found.

[00:24:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Episode two starts with finding the bodies and telling the parents.

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Then we go to the second case there in Daytona, rule out that perpetrator.

[00:24:21] [SPEAKER_01]: And then at the end is the beginning of the Delphi case.

[00:24:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I too sat up because I thought, oh, I've heard of that one.

[00:24:27] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think we've heard of that one if people don't quite remember why

[00:24:30] [SPEAKER_01]: it's because one of the girls took a video of their murderer.

[00:24:34] [SPEAKER_00]: The person who there's a great, there's a great podcast.

[00:24:38] [SPEAKER_00]: There's a great podcast about it.

[00:24:39] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I think it's called the Delphi murders, but it's a really, really good.

[00:24:43] [SPEAKER_00]: And it's been keeping up to date as it's been going. Yeah.

[00:24:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, fantastic.

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_01]: And then episode three starts again with the Delphi case.

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_01]: They do a sidetrack into Jeff Altmaier,

[00:24:55] [SPEAKER_01]: who is in prison for life, for kidnapping, sexual abuse and enticing

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_01]: a minor ruled out.

[00:25:02] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is something that I think we know because people don't go backwards.

[00:25:05] [SPEAKER_01]: Once they kill, they're not just going to abduct an assault.

[00:25:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Goes the other way.

[00:25:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And then we have Drew, the father of Elizabeth,

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_01]: talking to and recording cellmates of the potential perpetrator,

[00:25:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Michael Klunder, who law enforcement have ruled out.

[00:25:25] [SPEAKER_01]: And maybe we find that they should have ruled them in

[00:25:28] [SPEAKER_01]: and then a reunion at the cemetery because this double abduction

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_01]: tore apart the family, the sisters

[00:25:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and also both pairs of parents.

[00:25:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's the structure of it.

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I thought structurally it

[00:25:47] [SPEAKER_01]: was it was an excellent structure as far as I was concerned.

[00:25:50] [SPEAKER_01]: But I was talking about Desi.

[00:25:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's talk about her because that's very opposite

[00:25:54] [SPEAKER_01]: because Desi escaped from Michael Klunder, who took them both.

[00:26:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Again, like the oven, my late escape person,

[00:26:04] [SPEAKER_01]: we have an insight into their methods.

[00:26:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Mary Payne, how did you find Desi as a talking head?

[00:26:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I felt for her so hard

[00:26:18] [SPEAKER_00]: and every time they showed her, you know, she had different hair,

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_00]: different things. And I will tell you something that

[00:26:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I learned from Olivia Plath of Welcome to Plathville, my favorite show.

[00:26:28] [SPEAKER_00]: I've interviewed her several times and she, you know, left a very

[00:26:32] [SPEAKER_00]: strict religious upbringing, sort of like Duggar Esk.

[00:26:38] [SPEAKER_00]: And when talking to her about other people on the show,

[00:26:40] [SPEAKER_00]: this will come back around a promise to your question.

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_00]: Talking to other people in the show and like changing, like all of a sudden

[00:26:46] [SPEAKER_00]: now you dyed your hair black or now you got all these tattoos.

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And you're, you know, she said what she has come to understand

[00:26:51] [SPEAKER_00]: from her being out of the cult is when people get out of the cult,

[00:26:55] [SPEAKER_00]: the first thing they try to do is change because they're going to show

[00:26:57] [SPEAKER_00]: their changed, but all they change is the outside.

[00:27:00] [SPEAKER_00]: And they constantly change the outside.

[00:27:02] [SPEAKER_00]: They dye their hair, the dye their eyebrows, their pierced their nose.

[00:27:05] [SPEAKER_00]: They get tons of tattoos.

[00:27:06] [SPEAKER_00]: They're trying to show that they've changed, but they're only changing the outside.

[00:27:10] [SPEAKER_00]: They're not doing anything to change the inside to help them deprogram.

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_00]: So when I see somebody that's been through something like that,

[00:27:17] [SPEAKER_00]: who has really, really kind of drastically over and over changed their appearance.

[00:27:22] [SPEAKER_00]: You're like that person is really going through something

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_00]: really trying to mask it with a new hair color, with a new piercing, with a new

[00:27:30] [SPEAKER_00]: because that way if I keep doing that and changing these things,

[00:27:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll be changed.

[00:27:35] [SPEAKER_00]: But that.

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Desi is scarred for life.

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what kind of major therapy will

[00:27:44] [SPEAKER_00]: will help her get over it.

[00:27:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Her walking through that field and saying, here's where they held me.

[00:27:52] [SPEAKER_00]: I looked to my left.

[00:27:53] [SPEAKER_00]: Here's where I hid and had that like hog gun that would stun the hogs,

[00:27:59] [SPEAKER_00]: but there was nothing in it.

[00:28:01] [SPEAKER_00]: And then you wonder because of the story that she tells,

[00:28:04] [SPEAKER_00]: you wonder because he did pat pat pat on her leg when she was crying,

[00:28:09] [SPEAKER_00]: was she was never the target?

[00:28:11] [SPEAKER_00]: The target was her friend, Kathleen.

[00:28:13] [SPEAKER_00]: But was he coming back for her?

[00:28:15] [SPEAKER_00]: He must have been.

[00:28:17] [SPEAKER_00]: But you'll never know.

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_00]: And that Desi is living with that her whole life.

[00:28:22] [SPEAKER_00]: She was 15 at the time.

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, oh my God, my heart just broke in a million pieces, a million pieces.

[00:28:31] [SPEAKER_00]: It truly did.

[00:28:33] [SPEAKER_03]: And I will say

[00:28:35] [SPEAKER_03]: that that was probably the one moment where I was like, I was like,

[00:28:39] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't know if the documentarian should have done that.

[00:28:42] [SPEAKER_03]: Putting make absolutely bad to the field.

[00:28:45] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, I that I was like.

[00:28:48] [SPEAKER_03]: It didn't add it. It didn't add anything.

[00:28:50] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

[00:28:53] [SPEAKER_03]: And then not only did it not add anything, but he he recorded it

[00:28:56] [SPEAKER_03]: in this weird sepia tone.

[00:28:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Like what are we doing here?

[00:29:00] [SPEAKER_03]: Like this is. Yeah.

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_00]: That was trying to show you like it's trying to show you

[00:29:04] [SPEAKER_00]: that it's like back in time with the black and white like back to 2012 or whatever.

[00:29:09] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, I gotta tell you.

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_01]: He is this first documentary.

[00:29:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it's stunningly assured for a first documentary.

[00:29:17] [SPEAKER_01]: He has been a cinematographer.

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_01]: So right, I think we see that visual.

[00:29:22] [SPEAKER_01]: You can see that visual alacrity and flexibility that he has,

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_01]: which I think is one of the great parts of the documentary.

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_01]: But I agree with both of you.

[00:29:31] [SPEAKER_01]: I think this was a misstep.

[00:29:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I liked hearing from her liked is the wrong word.

[00:29:35] [SPEAKER_01]: It was great to him. That's also the wrong word.

[00:29:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Having Desi there is very illuminating.

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I do wonder about re traumatizing.

[00:29:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I hope that there was some support for her there.

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Taking her to the field was completely unnecessary.

[00:29:51] [SPEAKER_01]: And I thought all three of it, I think all three of us thought,

[00:29:54] [SPEAKER_01]: please take that child because she's still in some ways that child out of there.

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. And for Desi to like we get three,

[00:30:03] [SPEAKER_03]: we get her in three different shots over over the years.

[00:30:07] [SPEAKER_03]: So we get like, I believe we got 20.

[00:30:10] [SPEAKER_03]: It was 2013, 2018, maybe and then 2022.

[00:30:16] [SPEAKER_03]: I want to say those could have been the years.

[00:30:18] [SPEAKER_03]: It was a spread. It was a spread like that.

[00:30:21] [SPEAKER_03]: And it was just so shocking to kind of see the transformation

[00:30:24] [SPEAKER_03]: over the time period between like, like you were saying,

[00:30:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Mary Payne, the change in her appearance.

[00:30:32] [SPEAKER_03]: And, you know, we don't often comment on appearance here,

[00:30:34] [SPEAKER_03]: but it did look like she was going through it.

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_03]: You know what I'm saying?

[00:30:39] [SPEAKER_03]: By the time we get to 2022, I just I just felt so I felt so bad for her

[00:30:45] [SPEAKER_03]: because like you said, you could see that this is still with her.

[00:30:49] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's why I was like, did we need did we need her?

[00:30:54] [SPEAKER_03]: Like, did she say anything different in 2022

[00:30:56] [SPEAKER_03]: that she didn't say in 2018?

[00:31:00] [SPEAKER_00]: That didn't show us like, OK, here's the actual distance.

[00:31:03] [SPEAKER_00]: You can see that if I ran 12 feet this way and then to the left

[00:31:07] [SPEAKER_00]: and he couldn't find me like it didn't add that to it

[00:31:09] [SPEAKER_00]: because we'd already seen the aerial shot of where the where the farm was

[00:31:13] [SPEAKER_00]: to where the woods were. So we we didn't need it.

[00:31:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I really, really.

[00:31:18] [SPEAKER_00]: My heart is it doesn't it doesn't help that the guy did it.

[00:31:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Is dead. That doesn't help because your friend is also dead.

[00:31:25] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, it's like, whoo.

[00:31:28] [SPEAKER_00]: And I didn't understand the timeline of that either.

[00:31:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Speaking of timelines, when they told the story of the guy, you know,

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_00]: she runs, he's trying to find her.

[00:31:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Then he obviously murders her friend, has time to wrap her in something,

[00:31:40] [SPEAKER_00]: dump her in the river, go to another property and kill himself.

[00:31:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm like, what was the real timeline there?

[00:31:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Was that three hours? Was it?

[00:31:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it was a few hours, I believe right here.

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, he took her friend, Kathleen away.

[00:31:56] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think that's when he was killing her and wrapping her while

[00:32:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Desi was getting her shackles from the back to the front and running and

[00:32:05] [SPEAKER_01]: hiding. I think for a long time, as you can imagine,

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_01]: to get through to the next neighborhood, we saw that aerial shot.

[00:32:13] [SPEAKER_01]: It's it's bushland, as we would call it here.

[00:32:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think because it was slightly we felt from the filmmaker.

[00:32:22] [SPEAKER_01]: I had to figure that out in my head because it felt like he did that after.

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think he did it before then, as he was not there.

[00:32:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So I think he thought she was securely tied up.

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I think he went and did what he wanted to do to Kathleen

[00:32:37] [SPEAKER_01]: and then came back and found her missing.

[00:32:39] [SPEAKER_00]: OK, it may sound like like while he was in the middle of whatever

[00:32:43] [SPEAKER_00]: he was doing, yeah, then she jumped up and ran and he stopped

[00:32:48] [SPEAKER_00]: what he was doing.

[00:32:49] [SPEAKER_00]: That's what I thought as well came back to the body, wrapped it up and took it away.

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. No, she says she says it sort of briefly, but it's like he took her away.

[00:32:59] [SPEAKER_01]: So Desi was by by herself. Yes.

[00:33:02] [SPEAKER_03]: Waiting to see what she said next.

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah. She said the last thing that Kathleen had said was my name.

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_03]: So she must have, yeah, definitely been there.

[00:33:10] [SPEAKER_03]: So yeah, it it he knew he was screwed.

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_03]: When he wants, he wants Desi had gotten away and he had he driven

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_03]: around for a few hours like looking for her.

[00:33:22] [SPEAKER_03]: She said as she was running through the wood,

[00:33:24] [SPEAKER_03]: she could see his lights popping up in different places and she had it's terrifying.

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a horror. I could not imagine.

[00:33:30] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it is literally a horror movie.

[00:33:32] [SPEAKER_03]: And but he wasn't able to find her.

[00:33:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And then that's that's when he went back,

[00:33:38] [SPEAKER_03]: I think it to at least start covering his tracks because then

[00:33:41] [SPEAKER_03]: because I think she just waited in the woods for like, you know, hid in the woods

[00:33:44] [SPEAKER_03]: for at least a few hours till she felt like it was clear and it was gone.

[00:33:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And then yeah, go.

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I think when he left, he had Kathleen in his truck.

[00:33:52] [SPEAKER_00]: This guy. And then I think so.

[00:33:54] [SPEAKER_00]: I think so.

[00:33:55] [SPEAKER_00]: And she was able that that neighbor and that neighbor saying

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_00]: when she showed up, I told my friend, get your gun and go to that property.

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_00]: He sure did.

[00:34:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And he said, don't let that guy leave or do, you know, don't hurt him for now.

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, wow, what a like a good Samaritan, you know, for him to be like,

[00:34:14] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know what shit went down, but we're calling the cops and get my friend

[00:34:17] [SPEAKER_00]: to get that gun and go over there.

[00:34:18] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, that guy.

[00:34:20] [SPEAKER_00]: But anyway, that does he that was a heart wrenching.

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_00]: There's so many heart wrenching parts, but her particularly was bad.

[00:34:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Bad. Bad.

[00:34:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I think one of the strengths of the of the docuseries

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_01]: is we see the ripple effect through the whole community of each of the

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_01]: docuseries cases.

[00:34:42] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's call them that's a little cold, but let's call them that.

[00:34:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And even to this man, does he relive that moment where this

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_01]: incoherent little girl bound by the wrists, scratched, bleeding arms

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_01]: and legs appears on his property?

[00:35:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, does he relive that?

[00:35:04] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, he did the right thing, but that affects him.

[00:35:06] [SPEAKER_01]: We see these ripples in community, in all the communities.

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And we hear our girls.

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I've never seen law enforcement.

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Three of them tear up.

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_01]: So the talking heads are basically the four parents of Lyric and Elizabeth

[00:35:25] [SPEAKER_01]: and the three law enforcement and the filmmaker.

[00:35:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So the law enforcement, Murray, did you find them illuminating

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_01]: or was there a slight indulgence, which is what I think?

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_03]: A little bit of both because it did feel like they, you know,

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_03]: they were there to add some sympathy for them.

[00:35:46] [SPEAKER_03]: But I do think that when stuff like this happens in a small town like that,

[00:35:51] [SPEAKER_03]: that these cops do get caught up in the case like this.

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, when Dan Tralke, the Waterloo Police

[00:35:57] [SPEAKER_03]: chief talks about how he was going to be the one to give the death

[00:36:01] [SPEAKER_03]: notification because he had gotten so close to the parents.

[00:36:05] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, I you feel that because they are they are looking for these girls.

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_03]: They these police officers called in the DCI,

[00:36:15] [SPEAKER_03]: the Department of Criminal Investigation,

[00:36:19] [SPEAKER_03]: because they they knew that their small precinct

[00:36:23] [SPEAKER_03]: wasn't going to be able to do it.

[00:36:24] [SPEAKER_03]: So like, yes, there was a lot of cops here.

[00:36:27] [SPEAKER_03]: I don't think it was too too gratuitous,

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_03]: but a lot of them also were like the case is active.

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_03]: We can't really tell you a lot of things.

[00:36:36] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, we can't tell you some stuff because we're still

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_03]: investigating the case and there's stuff only the perpetrator would know.

[00:36:44] [SPEAKER_03]: So they were kind of keeping this stuff close to their chests.

[00:36:48] [SPEAKER_03]: But I mean, it didn't take away from the documentary for me.

[00:36:53] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think it took away.

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Mm hmm.

[00:36:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I think having those cops there was good, but I think I think it was an advantage

[00:36:59] [SPEAKER_00]: having them tell their firsthand account of, you know, because some of them

[00:37:04] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, retired from the force were only on the case for a couple of years.

[00:37:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I think it's always good.

[00:37:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I think what I found very frustrating is that, you know,

[00:37:13] [SPEAKER_00]: they can only tell so much because the killer would have this information

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_00]: and we get it. We understand that you don't want to ever tip off, of course.

[00:37:22] [SPEAKER_00]: But if you think.

[00:37:25] [SPEAKER_00]: Two of the possible killers are dead, what does it matter?

[00:37:28] [SPEAKER_00]: You know what I mean?

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_00]: So that was first that was frustrating to me that they're like,

[00:37:32] [SPEAKER_00]: well, we're not going to tell you this and we're not going to tell you that.

[00:37:34] [SPEAKER_00]: You're like, well, how is it ever going to get solved?

[00:37:37] [SPEAKER_00]: And you've got the dad drew out there just like.

[00:37:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Just talk about him.

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:37:43] [SPEAKER_00]: He was true.

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Mary, thank God for drew.

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I found drew so sympathetic and I mean, obviously, and.

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_00]: What was interesting about the difference between drew and Dan?

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_00]: So Dan is a recovering addict and drew is just a grief stricken dad.

[00:38:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I found it was very interesting about Dan and Missy were didn't seem like

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_00]: they were ever like super together as a couple.

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_00]: They were definitely never married.

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_00]: But drew and Heather Heather.

[00:38:13] [SPEAKER_00]: I wrote Jennifer was close.

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_00]: Heather, they were married, had four kids, had a, you know,

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_00]: seemed to have a very it seemed like the one sister was the good sister

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_00]: and the other sister was the wild sister.

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And then Tammy was in the middle.

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, Tammy was the middle sister.

[00:38:28] [SPEAKER_00]: He was like, I'm the sister.

[00:38:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, whoa, where'd she come from?

[00:38:31] [SPEAKER_00]: But it's it's it seems like.

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Drew, it was interesting about drew and Heather's marriage

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_00]: and how he said we both handled it very differently.

[00:38:42] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's what broke up our marriage.

[00:38:44] [SPEAKER_00]: You could easily see how that would happen.

[00:38:46] [SPEAKER_00]: But him being like, I'm putting this together and this together

[00:38:51] [SPEAKER_00]: and this together and this person knew this person from high school

[00:38:54] [SPEAKER_00]: who was in prison with this guy who may have known this killer who is dead.

[00:38:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Let me investigate.

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, you go for it, Drew.

[00:39:01] [SPEAKER_00]: Good job.

[00:39:02] [SPEAKER_00]: I loved him.

[00:39:03] [SPEAKER_00]: I loved him at the end.

[00:39:04] [SPEAKER_00]: How he's like jumping out of my car.

[00:39:05] [SPEAKER_00]: He's got my phone in my pocket.

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Is that weird?

[00:39:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, yes, it is weird.

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_00]: But this dumb dumb that's been in prison doesn't know, you know?

[00:39:13] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. Oh, man, I liked him a lot.

[00:39:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I really at the end, I was like, I kept going.

[00:39:18] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it's only got five more minutes.

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, it's only got four more minutes.

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_00]: Like obviously they're not going to give us the answer that we want.

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, three more minutes, you know.

[00:39:27] [SPEAKER_03]: This very much like drew as a father and Heather, like again,

[00:39:33] [SPEAKER_03]: the grief seeing the grief in parents

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_03]: and how losing a child impacts families truly is like the saddest thing to me

[00:39:41] [SPEAKER_03]: because the earliest interview we get with Drew and Heather, it's 2015.

[00:39:47] [SPEAKER_03]: And they're sitting there together

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_03]: and you can tell Heather is trying to keep it all together.

[00:39:51] [SPEAKER_03]: And then as she goes, gets through her subsequent interviews,

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_03]: you can just tell that it's just like she couldn't she couldn't do it.

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_03]: You know what I'm saying?

[00:40:00] [SPEAKER_03]: And it reminded me of a captive audience, Sarah.

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Remember, it's like fathers.

[00:40:05] [SPEAKER_03]: We've seen this like fathers who lose kids.

[00:40:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Some of them take it so hard.

[00:40:12] [SPEAKER_03]: Like they just they were not there to protect their child.

[00:40:15] [SPEAKER_03]: Like they take it like so personally.

[00:40:19] [SPEAKER_03]: And to the point where Drew was falling apart,

[00:40:23] [SPEAKER_03]: like like Heather was saying, Drew was falling apart.

[00:40:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Just like I believe Carrie Stainer's father was like

[00:40:29] [SPEAKER_03]: he could not he could not do anything.

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_03]: He was just distraught over losing Elizabeth to the point

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_03]: where Heather had to basically reign in her grieving

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_03]: because they had three other kids.

[00:40:42] [SPEAKER_03]: There was no right for her grief.

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_01]: He didn't write any room for the grief.

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I had to say should have taken turns.

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that sounds really light, but it is actually what needs to happen.

[00:40:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Exactly. And while I look up, they had the three other children.

[00:40:56] [SPEAKER_03]: They had three other children.

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_03]: And Heather could not let it fall apart.

[00:41:02] [SPEAKER_03]: She said she she tried to keep it together.

[00:41:04] [SPEAKER_03]: And I think she ultimately said she she by the end she couldn't, you know?

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_03]: And that's why that's why they got divorced.

[00:41:10] [SPEAKER_03]: And it's just it's just so incredibly sad.

[00:41:15] [SPEAKER_03]: But out of all of that, Drew is still hunting.

[00:41:19] [SPEAKER_03]: He's still trying to figure things out.

[00:41:21] [SPEAKER_03]: And he he I think he got some really good information

[00:41:24] [SPEAKER_03]: to say the least.

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_03]: So I mean, yeah, it's so bad.

[00:41:31] [SPEAKER_03]: It's it's such an unfortunate situation that these two cousins

[00:41:35] [SPEAKER_03]: are kidnapped and murdered.

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_03]: And it just completely creates this big schism within their families.

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_03]: They're their big family at large.

[00:41:45] [SPEAKER_03]: And then within their individual families.

[00:41:47] [SPEAKER_00]: We think about think about the grandmother, too.

[00:41:49] [SPEAKER_00]: The grandmother was one watching them.

[00:41:51] [SPEAKER_00]: And that's the mother of those daughters.

[00:41:53] [SPEAKER_00]: You think about the grandmother.

[00:41:54] [SPEAKER_00]: You think about the siblings of the kids.

[00:41:58] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I don't know if Lyric, I feel like Lyric may have had one sibling

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_00]: and Elizabeth had three.

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And we think about their cousins and their cousins, all the cousins

[00:42:09] [SPEAKER_00]: and something that Misty said, which is interesting,

[00:42:12] [SPEAKER_00]: because we found out she was in prison for the first four years,

[00:42:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I think of her life when she came out and she was clean

[00:42:19] [SPEAKER_00]: and she wanted to do the right thing and be a mom.

[00:42:21] [SPEAKER_00]: It was interesting that she said, you know,

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_00]: when your kids outside without a coat and it's in the back of your mind,

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_00]: oh, they should get a coat. I'm worried I should get it.

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_00]: You can't like let it go because they're outside without a coat.

[00:42:32] [SPEAKER_00]: She said, that's how it was in those five months

[00:42:34] [SPEAKER_00]: when we didn't know where they were.

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_00]: I was thinking my I couldn't let it go out of my mind

[00:42:38] [SPEAKER_00]: that my kid was outside cold without a coat.

[00:42:40] [SPEAKER_00]: And for me, it's like a mom that really hit me.

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_00]: I was like, it's just that nonstop.

[00:42:45] [SPEAKER_00]: It won't let you go.

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_00]: It won't. Oh, did my kid forget this?

[00:42:48] [SPEAKER_00]: My kid doesn't have a coat.

[00:42:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And you can't that really, really struck me really did.

[00:42:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And another thing that struck me when they showed that 2015

[00:42:57] [SPEAKER_00]: of Drew and Heather together was how thin Heather was.

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_00]: She looked unwell,

[00:43:06] [SPEAKER_00]: unwell because her child was missing.

[00:43:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And then also, like you said, she's dealing with her husband's emotions

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_00]: and trying to take care of the other three kids to explain

[00:43:14] [SPEAKER_00]: where your sister has gone.

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_00]: I mean, she she was under a lot of pressure

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_00]: and I can understand why they got divorced. Yeah.

[00:43:22] [SPEAKER_01]: One of the things that struck me was Mike Patty, Mike Patty is Liberty's father.

[00:43:27] [SPEAKER_01]: We don't spend a lot of time with the Delphi case, the people actually involved.

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_01]: But we do get Abigail's mother and Liberty's grandmother and father.

[00:43:39] [SPEAKER_01]: And he says, because at the time there was no arrest,

[00:43:43] [SPEAKER_01]: he says he has to be lucky every day.

[00:43:46] [SPEAKER_01]: We only have to be lucky one day.

[00:43:49] [SPEAKER_01]: And I thought, Mike, you don't know when you're saying it, but he did get unlucky

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_01]: and he is going to be tried as we said in October of this year.

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I like that too. I like that quote.

[00:44:01] [SPEAKER_00]: I like that. I like these dad energy coming in like, I will I will come for you.

[00:44:07] [SPEAKER_00]: I will come for you.

[00:44:08] [SPEAKER_00]: And because I curse so much, I enjoyed Drew's

[00:44:12] [SPEAKER_00]: constant use of the F word, which is my favorite.

[00:44:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. It's interesting that you hadn't thought about that,

[00:44:17] [SPEAKER_01]: but we get a lot of dad energy because we get Dan as well, who is,

[00:44:22] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, doubly oppressed because not only is his daughter missing,

[00:44:27] [SPEAKER_01]: but he is under the scrutiny of the media and the police, as we mentioned earlier.

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_01]: But even the next door neighbor that Desi ran to, there's some dad energy there.

[00:44:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. Straight into it. Right. Solve.

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to go to Solve mode.

[00:44:40] [SPEAKER_01]: You gun over there. Me phone cover, cover child with coach.

[00:44:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, that's one of the things that Drew did.

[00:44:47] [SPEAKER_01]: He went into Solve mode and is still in Solve mode

[00:44:51] [SPEAKER_01]: because someone who was ruled out by law enforcement

[00:44:55] [SPEAKER_01]: or enforcement won't say why they ruled this person out

[00:44:59] [SPEAKER_01]: has been ruled back in by Drew's investigation

[00:45:03] [SPEAKER_01]: and speaking to cellmates of this man now dead.

[00:45:08] [SPEAKER_01]: But one would like to know who had done it.

[00:45:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I think what's interesting about that, because I watched, like I said,

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_00]: I do a lot of prisoner shows and what I thought was super interesting about that

[00:45:19] [SPEAKER_00]: when they said just because his cell phone didn't ping doesn't mean that's where he was

[00:45:24] [SPEAKER_00]: because he would not be allowed to travel outside the county

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_00]: because you'd have to get his PO to approve it and it'd be a whole thing.

[00:45:31] [SPEAKER_00]: So if he wanted to just go see his buddy,

[00:45:33] [SPEAKER_00]: he would leave his phone where it was so they couldn't GPS him.

[00:45:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Go see his buddy. What's up? Come back.

[00:45:39] [SPEAKER_00]: So the fact that his cell phone didn't ping means nothing

[00:45:42] [SPEAKER_00]: because to visit a different county, it's or of state or whatever.

[00:45:46] [SPEAKER_00]: It's a whole big thing. You got to talk to your PO.

[00:45:48] [SPEAKER_00]: And the prisoner was like, yeah, we do that all the time.

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_00]: Like that's just that's just what you do if you want to go visit somebody

[00:45:55] [SPEAKER_00]: and you don't want to have to tell your PO.

[00:45:56] [SPEAKER_00]: And I thought that's some insight we needed that the police should have thought of.

[00:46:00] [SPEAKER_00]: Right. Is there also a thing they're not allowed to consort with other other?

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_00]: Not at all.

[00:46:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Well, I'm not not allowed to live with another fellow and not allowed to be

[00:46:10] [SPEAKER_00]: even go to lunch with another fellow at all.

[00:46:12] [SPEAKER_00]: Wow. Bad news. Bad news.

[00:46:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, that seemed like such an oversight.

[00:46:18] [SPEAKER_01]: And I mean, look, it's great that we have, you know, the cell phones

[00:46:20] [SPEAKER_01]: and forensics, which is Murray's area and all of that.

[00:46:24] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's also like you've got to think about people.

[00:46:26] [SPEAKER_01]: What do people do?

[00:46:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Someone's going where they're not supposed to be.

[00:46:31] [SPEAKER_01]: We say stays stay stupid criminals

[00:46:33] [SPEAKER_01]: because a lot of them do take their phones with them.

[00:46:35] [SPEAKER_01]: But if you are a smart bad person, you'll leave your phone at home.

[00:46:42] [SPEAKER_01]: You won't be telling people that you're going anywhere.

[00:46:45] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes, absolutely.

[00:46:46] Mm hmm.

[00:46:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Murray, any last thoughts before we go to our ratings?

[00:46:50] [SPEAKER_03]: The only last thoughts I have is I think Michael Klunder did it.

[00:46:55] [SPEAKER_03]: I think I think it's safe to say that he did it.

[00:46:58] [SPEAKER_03]: But, you know, the the parents aren't ever going to really get

[00:47:04] [SPEAKER_03]: justice because he's dead.

[00:47:05] [SPEAKER_03]: You know what I'm saying?

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_03]: And then like say he wasn't dead, say he had trial and all that.

[00:47:11] [SPEAKER_03]: And he's guilty, you know, justice, but they still don't have their kids.

[00:47:15] [SPEAKER_03]: You know, so that's the really sad part.

[00:47:19] [SPEAKER_03]: I guess the biggest relief, like they said, is for those those five months,

[00:47:22] [SPEAKER_03]: they had no clue where they were, what was happening.

[00:47:25] [SPEAKER_03]: And they did feel a little bit of relief, even though they felt bad about that.

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_03]: Once they found out that they were, you know, they were gone.

[00:47:33] [SPEAKER_03]: But it's just like I just my heart goes out to them.

[00:47:37] [SPEAKER_03]: I feel so bad for them with this case.

[00:47:40] [SPEAKER_03]: But I truly think, especially with the statistics of like double

[00:47:45] [SPEAKER_03]: abductions are so rare and there's two in Iowa.

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_03]: You got one guy who did one confirmed.

[00:47:51] [SPEAKER_03]: And after he dies, no more double abductions happened.

[00:47:54] [SPEAKER_03]: It's it feels like the the guy went down for, you know.

[00:48:01] [SPEAKER_01]: So I mean, that was one of the moving things was that the girls' bodies

[00:48:05] [SPEAKER_01]: were found together and that was a small comfort that they that they had each

[00:48:10] [SPEAKER_01]: other in the in the worst moment of their lives that they weren't separated.

[00:48:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Mary Payne, any last thoughts before we raise?

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_00]: I thought it was really good and I would not have because I've always

[00:48:21] [SPEAKER_00]: got so many things on my list.

[00:48:22] [SPEAKER_00]: And now I've got more things after talking to y'all.

[00:48:24] [SPEAKER_00]: Always have so many things on my list to watch when I actually have like a little

[00:48:28] [SPEAKER_00]: break and I can watch something for myself or for more fun or just like,

[00:48:34] [SPEAKER_00]: you know, just just to like watch it and like also like play a game on my phone

[00:48:39] [SPEAKER_00]: and not have to write a note or really pay attention.

[00:48:42] [SPEAKER_00]: So so but I was really, really watching this and it wouldn't

[00:48:47] [SPEAKER_00]: this would not have come to me.

[00:48:48] [SPEAKER_00]: I would not have known about it.

[00:48:49] [SPEAKER_00]: So I'm glad that you guys showed me this because now I'm really going to be like

[00:48:54] [SPEAKER_00]: following it, especially with the Delphi murders and is there a tie into that guy?

[00:48:59] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think so.

[00:49:00] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't think so.

[00:49:02] [SPEAKER_00]: But what if they what if they find out there is like?

[00:49:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah.

[00:49:06] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah.

[00:49:07] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. Appreciate it.

[00:49:08] [SPEAKER_00]: I appreciate you letting me watch it.

[00:49:10] [SPEAKER_00]: Of course.

[00:49:12] [SPEAKER_03]: We're glad you liked it.

[00:49:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Mary Payne, how many magnifying glasses are you going to rate?

[00:49:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Taken together who killed Lyric and Elizabeth out of a possible five?

[00:49:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Five is the best.

[00:49:26] [SPEAKER_00]: Five is the best.

[00:49:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Can we do havesies on any?

[00:49:30] [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, yes, ma'am.

[00:49:32] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm going to go for I'm going to go four and a half.

[00:49:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, oh, OK.

[00:49:35] [SPEAKER_00]: Really well done documentary.

[00:49:38] [SPEAKER_00]: I liked that Dylan, the documentarian was a part of it.

[00:49:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I like that instead of him just finding out later in an interview why he was

[00:49:46] [SPEAKER_00]: so interested in it.

[00:49:47] [SPEAKER_00]: I liked that he explained that he had been on this case for so long.

[00:49:50] [SPEAKER_00]: And when the call come in, it was like nine o'clock and he was about to get off

[00:49:54] [SPEAKER_00]: and he was like, oh, now I'm not going to get off work.

[00:49:56] [SPEAKER_00]: I liked all that background of it.

[00:49:58] [SPEAKER_00]: I liked the time lapse of the people.

[00:50:02] [SPEAKER_00]: The only reason I don't give it a five is because I don't think they

[00:50:06] [SPEAKER_00]: should have taken Desi out to the woods.

[00:50:09] [SPEAKER_00]: And I think it could have been 30 minutes longer

[00:50:14] [SPEAKER_00]: because or another episode or another one's coming

[00:50:17] [SPEAKER_00]: because I felt like there's more to come with Drew and his investigation.

[00:50:22] [SPEAKER_00]: So I felt like that was a little bit of a cliffhanger,

[00:50:24] [SPEAKER_00]: sort of like murder on Middle Beach.

[00:50:26] [SPEAKER_00]: It's like a cliffhanger. Oh, yeah.

[00:50:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I love murder on Middle Beach.

[00:50:29] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah. Yeah. I was good.

[00:50:31] [SPEAKER_01]: So four and a half, four and a half magnifying glasses.

[00:50:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Marie, how about you?

[00:50:35] [SPEAKER_01]: How many magnifying glasses for the Stuck U series?

[00:50:38] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm going to give it a four.

[00:50:39] [SPEAKER_03]: And for all of the reasons that Mary Payne said,

[00:50:43] [SPEAKER_03]: but also like there were some some cinematic choices

[00:50:48] [SPEAKER_03]: that I was like, I don't know.

[00:50:50] [SPEAKER_03]: This is weird.

[00:50:52] [SPEAKER_03]: I was like, OK.

[00:50:54] [SPEAKER_03]: And like I said, he he did weave

[00:50:57] [SPEAKER_03]: the double adduction things together pretty well.

[00:51:00] [SPEAKER_03]: I did not feel like my time was wasted with the Delphi murders

[00:51:05] [SPEAKER_03]: surprisingly, but you know, to come back around and it be like,

[00:51:10] [SPEAKER_03]: oh, but Drew is still like maybe we could have gotten a little bit more of Drew's

[00:51:15] [SPEAKER_03]: investigations and little less Delphi because I thought it was going to end

[00:51:19] [SPEAKER_03]: at Delphi and then they come back around and then they have this whole

[00:51:22] [SPEAKER_03]: investigation on Michael Klender like going on.

[00:51:25] [SPEAKER_03]: And I was like, oh, I want to know more about this.

[00:51:27] [SPEAKER_03]: So maybe just a little bit of a misstep there.

[00:51:30] [SPEAKER_03]: So I'm just putting in four with some of the higher stuff we've watched.

[00:51:33] [SPEAKER_03]: But, you know, not five or four point five.

[00:51:36] [SPEAKER_03]: It doesn't belong in the stuff for for me, like, you know,

[00:51:39] [SPEAKER_03]: comparing all the other stuff that we've given those higher rates.

[00:51:42] [SPEAKER_03]: So rating, not a ranking, but I do understand.

[00:51:44] [SPEAKER_03]: I know, I know.

[00:51:45] [SPEAKER_03]: You say it every time.

[00:51:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, no, no.

[00:51:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Not in my mind.

[00:51:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Is there ranking?

[00:51:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to give it a four as well.

[00:51:54] [SPEAKER_01]: I agree with what you both said.

[00:51:56] [SPEAKER_01]: I think the inclusion of the documentarian as a talking head

[00:52:00] [SPEAKER_01]: could have been wrong.

[00:52:02] [SPEAKER_01]: It was right.

[00:52:04] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm knocking it off because don't take Desi back there.

[00:52:07] [SPEAKER_01]: Like just don't do it doesn't add anything to us.

[00:52:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I think there were a few things that happened that didn't really add.

[00:52:13] [SPEAKER_01]: I I like law enforcement giving me procedure.

[00:52:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I like their personal stories, but I think there was just a little indulgence

[00:52:20] [SPEAKER_01]: there as they manfully sniffed away tears.

[00:52:23] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, I don't actually need to know that.

[00:52:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Although it does fit in with the theme of how is the entire community connected?

[00:52:31] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm not going to knock it back.

[00:52:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to give it a four.

[00:52:34] [SPEAKER_01]: They don't give you the answer for the Delphi murders, by the way.

[00:52:38] [SPEAKER_01]: So the arrest was was post the making of this of this documentary.

[00:52:42] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's fine.

[00:52:43] [SPEAKER_01]: You do have to go in knowing that you're not going to get the answer.

[00:52:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I could have done with a like a deeper dive into Michael Klunder.

[00:52:50] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, he we know that he was Catalan's murderer and Desi's abductor.

[00:52:56] [SPEAKER_01]: We didn't get quite enough there, particularly as they're going to circle

[00:53:00] [SPEAKER_01]: background and say the police ruled him out.

[00:53:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Now he must be ruled in, but yeah, a very solid recommend there.

[00:53:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Yes, I recommend. Yeah, same.

[00:53:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Talking about recommendations, Mary Payne, what do you have to recommend

[00:53:13] [SPEAKER_01]: to our listeners? What have you been listening to, reading, watching that you have enjoyed?

[00:53:19] [SPEAKER_00]: You know, I haven't listened to a good podcast lately.

[00:53:22] [SPEAKER_00]: So if anybody has a good recommendation for a podcast, I'll take it.

[00:53:26] [SPEAKER_00]: I'll take it.

[00:53:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm always looking for like the next thing to binge while I'm in the car or room gate,

[00:53:32] [SPEAKER_01]: broom or room, room gate, broom, like sweeping, sweeping, curling.

[00:53:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, the scandal in curling.

[00:53:38] [SPEAKER_01]: You never thought you'd be so interested.

[00:53:40] [SPEAKER_03]: I love curling and I have not.

[00:53:43] [SPEAKER_03]: OK, now I got no gate.

[00:53:45] [SPEAKER_00]: OK, one word. Yes. Love it.

[00:53:49] [SPEAKER_00]: And you know, when you asked me earlier about how I got into sort of

[00:53:52] [SPEAKER_00]: the true crime thing, I will say as far as dipping a toe into true crime

[00:53:55] [SPEAKER_00]: podcasting, you know, my favorite murder is the goat.

[00:53:59] [SPEAKER_00]: And in my mind, Karen Coogler is my best friend.

[00:54:02] [SPEAKER_00]: Of course, we are about the same age.

[00:54:04] [SPEAKER_00]: I think we're both kind of funny and have an Irish background.

[00:54:08] [SPEAKER_00]: So I think I think we'd be friends.

[00:54:10] [SPEAKER_00]: She doesn't know it.

[00:54:12] [SPEAKER_00]: I have reached out with no reply.

[00:54:16] [SPEAKER_00]: As far as what I'm watching, I just got finished covering.

[00:54:20] [SPEAKER_00]: We've got one more episode to go. Love is Blind UK.

[00:54:23] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. 10 out of 10.

[00:54:25] [SPEAKER_00]: I've been covering on my Patreon Supercast.

[00:54:28] [SPEAKER_00]: It is so good. It is so good.

[00:54:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I haven't gotten the screener for the reunion yet.

[00:54:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't know if Netflix is going to give it to me.

[00:54:35] [SPEAKER_00]: But yeah, I knocked all 11 of those episodes out in about a week and a half

[00:54:39] [SPEAKER_00]: before going into college.

[00:54:41] [SPEAKER_00]: And I know way too much about these people, but it was a great season.

[00:54:44] [SPEAKER_00]: The blood is.

[00:54:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And the accents. Oh, Mari, what did you think about that?

[00:54:49] [SPEAKER_00]: Oh, I love it.

[00:54:50] [SPEAKER_00]: Freddie. Oh, that Freddie is so hot.

[00:54:54] [SPEAKER_03]: He is so hot and Kat was getting on my nerves.

[00:54:57] [SPEAKER_03]: OK, she's the worst.

[00:55:00] [SPEAKER_03]: She's the worst.

[00:55:01] [SPEAKER_04]: Look at that man.

[00:55:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Oh my God. How do you how do you have somebody so hot

[00:55:06] [SPEAKER_03]: but giving golden retriever boyfriend energy?

[00:55:08] [SPEAKER_03]: I just oh my God.

[00:55:10] [SPEAKER_03]: Talk about a fumble.

[00:55:11] [SPEAKER_00]: Talk about a homeowner, a solid job.

[00:55:14] [SPEAKER_00]: And then you've got Benia, who we called Benihana half the time.

[00:55:17] [SPEAKER_00]: Benia, freaking homeless.

[00:55:19] [SPEAKER_00]: So I got a homeless guy.

[00:55:21] [SPEAKER_03]: You know what that makes sense?

[00:55:23] [SPEAKER_03]: I think I'm saying he's a nomad.

[00:55:25] [SPEAKER_03]: He is.

[00:55:26] [SPEAKER_03]: That man doesn't have a house.

[00:55:28] [SPEAKER_01]: He's a he's a he's wielding hitchhiker was a nomad as well.

[00:55:32] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, I know.

[00:55:33] [SPEAKER_00]: I'd be in I.

[00:55:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Yeah, he got it.

[00:55:34] [SPEAKER_00]: Like, oh, he was so happy to be on the show.

[00:55:36] [SPEAKER_00]: He had six weeks of room at board.

[00:55:38] [SPEAKER_00]: Exactly.

[00:55:39] [SPEAKER_00]: So that is a thing, something I just got.

[00:55:42] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm still watching it because the reunion is coming out and loving that.

[00:55:45] [SPEAKER_00]: And I always will recommend to anybody who will listen, welcome to Plathill.

[00:55:48] [SPEAKER_00]: In my opinion, the best reality show to ever hit our televisions.

[00:55:54] [SPEAKER_00]: Wow.

[00:55:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Love it.

[00:55:55] [SPEAKER_00]: Cover it.

[00:55:57] [SPEAKER_00]: Covered every episode is so good.

[00:55:58] [SPEAKER_01]: So good.

[00:56:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And what about you, Mari?

[00:56:01] [SPEAKER_01]: What do you have to recommend today?

[00:56:04] [SPEAKER_03]: I am going to recommend from the Discovery Channel.

[00:56:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Everybody knows I love my like naked and afraid.

[00:56:11] [SPEAKER_03]: The alone is the survival style TV shows.

[00:56:16] [SPEAKER_03]: So naked and afraid.

[00:56:17] [SPEAKER_03]: Last one standing is on right now, which I've already recommended before.

[00:56:21] [SPEAKER_03]: But what comes on after it is called in the eye of the storm.

[00:56:26] [SPEAKER_03]: It is it's an anthology series where each episode follows like a different

[00:56:31] [SPEAKER_03]: kind of like natural disaster and it has footage from people who are like

[00:56:36] [SPEAKER_03]: we're in those disasters and it and it cobbles all the footage

[00:56:41] [SPEAKER_03]: together and shows it in real time.

[00:56:43] [SPEAKER_03]: So like the first episode was about the these the tornadoes.

[00:56:47] [SPEAKER_03]: I can't remember if there was like the tornadoes in like Oklahoma a few years ago.

[00:56:51] [SPEAKER_03]: Probably.

[00:56:52] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, but the one the one episode that I recommend all the episodes.

[00:56:57] [SPEAKER_03]: But the one episode that I watched that was just like crazy heartbreaking and

[00:57:01] [SPEAKER_03]: just was so also just interesting when it comes to like, you know,

[00:57:05] [SPEAKER_03]: natural disasters was the Buffalo Blizzard

[00:57:08] [SPEAKER_03]: that happened back in 2021.

[00:57:11] [SPEAKER_03]: And now they have all of this footage like dash cam footage,

[00:57:16] [SPEAKER_03]: like footage from rescue.

[00:57:19] [SPEAKER_03]: The they have body cam footage and it tracks like the storm and what happens

[00:57:24] [SPEAKER_03]: as it's happening.

[00:57:26] [SPEAKER_03]: So like for here, the Blizzard just starts and you're seeing different dash

[00:57:30] [SPEAKER_03]: cam footage or going throughout the night and stuff like that.

[00:57:32] [SPEAKER_03]: And you're hearing different people's stories, different town people stories.

[00:57:36] [SPEAKER_03]: It was so crazy because they talked to this girl who survived in like a

[00:57:42] [SPEAKER_03]: 15 car pile up on the highway and they're showing footage of people like

[00:57:49] [SPEAKER_03]: like semi trucks like crashing into other trucks and cars.

[00:57:55] [SPEAKER_03]: And it was so it's it is a lot like if it is a lot.

[00:58:01] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, it's it's like how I recommended.

[00:58:03] [SPEAKER_03]: Remember, I recommended Sarah like the Hellfire,

[00:58:07] [SPEAKER_03]: like the campfire documentary that was on Netflix.

[00:58:12] [SPEAKER_03]: The Paradise Fire.

[00:58:14] [SPEAKER_03]: I forget what the name of the documentary was, but it's in that vein.

[00:58:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Like it's in the vein of like a firsthand account of like natural disasters.

[00:58:23] [SPEAKER_01]: So we both recommended Volcano as well.

[00:58:26] [SPEAKER_01]: That's one of our top recommendations.

[00:58:28] [SPEAKER_00]: Yes. No, I don't know.

[00:58:30] [SPEAKER_00]: I'm just scared.

[00:58:31] [SPEAKER_00]: I don't I would I will watch a child murder documentary before I want to watch

[00:58:36] [SPEAKER_00]: anything about a blizzard or a hurricane or a tsunami or no, I'm too scared.

[00:58:41] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm so they have all of those.

[00:58:43] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, the blizzard.

[00:58:45] [SPEAKER_03]: It had it has at least two tornado ones and they did also cover the

[00:58:49] [SPEAKER_03]: the fire in Hawaii, the Maui fire from the sea that either.

[00:58:54] [SPEAKER_03]: I'm too scared of that.

[00:58:56] [SPEAKER_03]: It's very interesting if you're into that sort of thing.

[00:58:58] [SPEAKER_03]: So it's called in the eye of the storm.

[00:59:00] [SPEAKER_03]: It's on discovery.

[00:59:01] [SPEAKER_03]: So you should be able to find it on Max and Discovery Plus as well.

[00:59:07] [SPEAKER_03]: Sarah, what about you?

[00:59:08] [SPEAKER_03]: What do you have to recommend?

[00:59:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I mean, everyone knows I am a great fan of 9 1 1 Lone Star.

[00:59:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm just thinking about that now because they have a great arc in an ice storm

[00:59:18] [SPEAKER_01]: that goes for several episodes.

[00:59:20] [SPEAKER_01]: That's just fantastic.

[00:59:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Marypaine, you might like it as a scripted fictional thing.

[00:59:25] [SPEAKER_01]: OK, OK.

[00:59:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Of what I'd like to recommend is bad monkey.

[00:59:30] [SPEAKER_01]: I love Carl Heisen.

[00:59:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Carl Heisen is my jam.

[00:59:34] [SPEAKER_01]: If you've read his books, you'll know what I'm talking about.

[00:59:36] [SPEAKER_01]: If you haven't, what are you doing with your life?

[00:59:39] [SPEAKER_01]: He writes sunshine, noir sunshine, noir set in Florida Keys,

[00:59:44] [SPEAKER_01]: peculiar, strange people and peculiar, strange crimes.

[00:59:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Wonderful. And Apple TV, I know Apple TV doesn't have a good back list.

[00:59:55] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, severance other than that.

[00:59:57] [SPEAKER_01]: But they have made bad monkey into a series.

[01:00:02] [SPEAKER_01]: It's extremely faithful to the book, so they haven't taken any liberties,

[01:00:06] [SPEAKER_01]: which is fine.

[01:00:08] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm never wanting things to necessarily be faithful to the book.

[01:00:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Starring Vince Vaughn.

[01:00:14] [SPEAKER_01]: Now you got my attention.

[01:00:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I love it.

[01:00:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Love Vince Vaughn, a suspended cop sitting on his

[01:00:21] [SPEAKER_01]: deck chair looking out at the keys and getting drawn into a what we would call

[01:00:27] [SPEAKER_01]: here in Australia, a shark arm case because we actually had a shark arm case,

[01:00:31] [SPEAKER_01]: a shark being caught in a tattooed arm being found in the guts of the shark.

[01:00:36] [SPEAKER_00]: Are you are you saying shark arm?

[01:00:40] [SPEAKER_00]: Shark.

[01:00:41] [SPEAKER_00]: Shark arm because you can't you're Australian, so you can't do the R thing is

[01:00:46] [SPEAKER_00]: I can do it if I try a shark arm.

[01:00:49] [SPEAKER_01]: There you go.

[01:00:52] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's got it's got a fantastic cast.

[01:00:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Vince Vaughn is a wonderful still center of kind of characters,

[01:01:00] [SPEAKER_01]: right, left and center. So I really recommend bad monkey.

[01:01:03] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know anyone who's watching it, so please watch it and hit me up

[01:01:07] [SPEAKER_01]: with your response.

[01:01:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to watch it.

[01:01:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. OK.

[01:01:13] [SPEAKER_01]: At Crime Scene, we're eager to hear your feedback and suggestions for future

[01:01:17] [SPEAKER_01]: episodes. You can follow Crime Scene on Twitter at Crime Scene R H A P

[01:01:21] [SPEAKER_01]: that's S E E N or email us at crime scene R H A P at G

[01:01:26] [SPEAKER_01]: mail dot com.

[01:01:28] [SPEAKER_03]: We're on Tick Tock at crime dot scene and on all other social media

[01:01:32] [SPEAKER_03]: at Crime Scene podcast.

[01:01:34] [SPEAKER_03]: And please remember to subscribe to our feed by going to Rob has a website

[01:01:38] [SPEAKER_03]: dot com slash crime feed.

[01:01:40] [SPEAKER_03]: It makes a big difference.

[01:01:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Mary Payne, what have you got going on and where can the people find you?

[01:01:47] [SPEAKER_00]: Over on Pink Shade, I'm covering Love After Lockup.

[01:01:50] [SPEAKER_00]: I cover the 90 day series and I cover Bravo.

[01:01:54] [SPEAKER_00]: And then we do these one offs.

[01:01:56] [SPEAKER_00]: We do Love Is Blind.

[01:01:57] [SPEAKER_00]: We're doing Forbidden Love, which is a great show on TLC about people

[01:02:00] [SPEAKER_00]: of different religions.

[01:02:01] [SPEAKER_00]: We've got an Amish person and like a Baptist person.

[01:02:04] [SPEAKER_00]: And then we've got like a Muslim and a Catholic and a Jewish and a Catholic.

[01:02:07] [SPEAKER_00]: It sounds like the start of a lot of jokes.

[01:02:10] [SPEAKER_00]: The Jewish and a Catholic walk into a bar, but no, it's a TV show.

[01:02:13] [SPEAKER_00]: And it is great.

[01:02:15] [SPEAKER_00]: And we are it is the Learning Channel and we're learning a lot

[01:02:18] [SPEAKER_00]: about different religions while also being a reality show.

[01:02:22] [SPEAKER_00]: So of course, there's some drama loving that.

[01:02:24] [SPEAKER_00]: And of course, welcome to Plathville and everyone can follow me.

[01:02:27] [SPEAKER_00]: I would appreciate it on Instagram at Pink Shade pod.

[01:02:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Wonderful. Go there immediately, everybody.

[01:02:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Mary, what about you? What have you got going on?

[01:02:37] [SPEAKER_03]: Well, of course, over on the recap kickback, me and Chappelle

[01:02:41] [SPEAKER_03]: just were joined with Latina Starks, who was just on last week.

[01:02:47] [SPEAKER_03]: We covered Hollywood Black, the MGM plus docu series.

[01:02:52] [SPEAKER_03]: It's a four part docu series we did.

[01:02:54] [SPEAKER_03]: We covered part one and two about the history of like black culture

[01:02:59] [SPEAKER_03]: and how it shapes Hollywood and cinema.

[01:03:03] [SPEAKER_03]: It is such a good docu series, Sarah.

[01:03:09] [SPEAKER_03]: And basically parts one and two

[01:03:13] [SPEAKER_03]: takes you back to the very beginnings of Hollywood

[01:03:15] [SPEAKER_03]: and how black people like there would be no Hollywood

[01:03:18] [SPEAKER_03]: without black people and black culture

[01:03:20] [SPEAKER_03]: and how the very first frames on film is a black man on a horse.

[01:03:25] [SPEAKER_03]: But it basically goes decade by decade, talking about the impact

[01:03:29] [SPEAKER_03]: of black culture on Hollywood

[01:03:31] [SPEAKER_03]: and how our stories are told in Hollywood.

[01:03:35] [SPEAKER_03]: And the first two episodes are available on MGM MGM plus.

[01:03:40] [SPEAKER_03]: The once the next two come out, we're going to come back

[01:03:43] [SPEAKER_03]: and finish the series because it was great.

[01:03:45] [SPEAKER_03]: It went from like the early 1900s all the way through the 1980s.

[01:03:49] [SPEAKER_03]: So we got passed into the Spike Lee era of film.

[01:03:55] [SPEAKER_03]: And so I'm very excited to see what the last two parts have

[01:03:59] [SPEAKER_03]: have to show us.

[01:04:00] [SPEAKER_03]: So very fun over there on the recap kickback.

[01:04:03] [SPEAKER_03]: We also were me and Chappelle were joined by Asia a few weeks ago

[01:04:06] [SPEAKER_03]: to talk about Tyler Perry's divorce in the black.

[01:04:09] [SPEAKER_03]: Yeah, such a hilarious podcast.

[01:04:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Just listen to the podcast.

[01:04:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Just listen to the podcast.

[01:04:15] [SPEAKER_01]: So good.

[01:04:16] [SPEAKER_03]: We had so much fun.

[01:04:18] [SPEAKER_03]: We were cracking up on that podcast

[01:04:20] [SPEAKER_03]: so you can definitely check that out.

[01:04:22] [SPEAKER_03]: Other than that, I'm on the Rob has a podcast network

[01:04:26] [SPEAKER_03]: talking about Big Brother is Big Brother season.

[01:04:28] [SPEAKER_03]: Big Brother is in full swing.

[01:04:30] [SPEAKER_03]: I was just on the Wednesday recap episode.

[01:04:32] [SPEAKER_03]: Last night.

[01:04:34] [SPEAKER_03]: So that's in your reality TV.

[01:04:36] [SPEAKER_03]: That's in the we know reality of feed.

[01:04:39] [SPEAKER_03]: That's also on the Rob has a podcast YouTube page.

[01:04:44] [SPEAKER_03]: And of course, just follow me on Twitter at Mari talks too much.

[01:04:48] [SPEAKER_03]: That's to like the number two to see where I'll post everything.

[01:04:52] [SPEAKER_03]: I'll post all the Big Brother stuff there as well.

[01:04:55] [SPEAKER_03]: So that's it for me, Sarah.

[01:04:57] [SPEAKER_03]: What do you got going on?

[01:04:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you can follow me at Sarah

[01:05:00] [SPEAKER_01]: Carradine on all the things if that's something that you'd like to do.

[01:05:03] [SPEAKER_01]: You can find me over on Salad podcast International.

[01:05:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, I say it gave me the keys to the kingdom.

[01:05:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Very happy.

[01:05:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I've just wrapped up well, a couple of weeks ago,

[01:05:12] [SPEAKER_01]: the traders New Zealand season two

[01:05:14] [SPEAKER_01]: with the winner of the traders New Zealand season one.

[01:05:17] [SPEAKER_01]: The reason I keep plugging it is I know people are coming later

[01:05:20] [SPEAKER_01]: to the to the series as you find it.

[01:05:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And I find that like like old tweets.

[01:05:26] [SPEAKER_01]: So I go, oh, yes, I see where you are.

[01:05:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I see where you are.

[01:05:30] [SPEAKER_01]: So come and listen to us.

[01:05:31] [SPEAKER_01]: We had guests every week and every single one of them was a person

[01:05:35] [SPEAKER_01]: who played in the traders.

[01:05:37] [SPEAKER_01]: So lots of insight into how the game is played from the inside.

[01:05:42] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's a great season.

[01:05:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So I recommend season.

[01:05:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I recommend our series of podcasts.

[01:05:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Coming up, I'll be bringing you every look in Ripple's Drag Race

[01:05:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Global All Stars with Katie from a date with Dateline.

[01:05:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And speaking of her, you can find both Mary Payne and myself

[01:05:59] [SPEAKER_01]: over on a date with Dateline with Kimberly and Katie

[01:06:02] [SPEAKER_01]: on their live every week to cover claim to fame.

[01:06:05] [SPEAKER_01]: No episode last week, of course, but coming up this week,

[01:06:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I think Mary Payne is on the panel

[01:06:11] [SPEAKER_01]: and you will always find me in the chat

[01:06:13] [SPEAKER_01]: if I'm not on the panel myself.

[01:06:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Murray, what are we watching next week?

[01:06:18] [SPEAKER_03]: Next time on Crime Scene,

[01:06:19] [SPEAKER_03]: we're covering American murder Lacey Peterson

[01:06:23] [SPEAKER_03]: with Kevin Flynn from Crime Writers On.

[01:06:26] [SPEAKER_03]: Watch it on Netflix and send us your comments and questions.

[01:06:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks to Mary Payne Gilbert for joining us.

[01:06:33] [SPEAKER_01]: We're from America for the theme music

[01:06:34] [SPEAKER_01]: and the whole RHAP team behind the scenes.

[01:06:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Until next time, case.