Monsters Of God | Crime Seen episode 214

[00:00:24] Hello everyone, I'm Sarah Carradine, podcasting from unceded Gadigal land. I'm Mari Forth. And this is Crime Seen, the True Crime Review podcast, where we get to the heart of how true crime stories are told. We had an amazing time in Milwaukee at RHAP Con, it was so great to meet all of you, so thanks for coming to our live shows, thanks for coming up and telling us how much you love the podcast, and we hope to see you at the next one, if you missed out.

[00:00:53] Last week we watched Free Fall, A Reckoning for Boeing, with my dad, Tony Cox. Sarah, what did we watch this week? We watched the first two episodes of Monsters Of God on HBO. It's a five-part series directed by Eric Good. He previously directed, no surprise, Tiger King, all 12 episodes, and Tiger King, The Doc Antle Story.

[00:01:16] And back for her fifth time, to help us break it all down. She is our wild subcultures correspondent, having covered twin Elvis impersonators in the Kings of Tupelo, and the cutthroat world of New York Christmas tree sellers in the Merchants of Joy. It's Mary Payne Gilmore. Welcome back, Mary Payne. I was like, what are you talking about? Subcultures. Yes, that's true. That's true. Now, I have a question. You guys were in Milwaukee?

[00:01:46] Yes, we were in Milwaukee. How are you enjoying the States? Loved every minute of it. Okay, wonderful. I love that. I'm glad that I've been here five times. I did not realize that. I love talking to y'all, and you had me watch a really weird one. Now, did Eric Good also do Chimp Crazy? Yes, he did Chimp Crazy. He did. If it's animals, Eric's there. He's there. Yes.

[00:02:13] Yeah, and you could get that sense watching this, for real. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So let's get to the crime, question mark. So this, as I said, is a five-part docuseries. It uncovers the billion-dollar criminal underworld of exotic reptile smuggling, tracing the rise from the 1960s up till now. And that's a global trade in rare and endangered reptiles.

[00:02:40] And the series tracks how animals move from international habitats to collectors and zoos in the United States and out into the environment. It's got everything. It's got drugs. It's got guns. It's got MAGA hats. It's got duck cops. It's got everything you could possibly want to know. And a lot of swearing, of course. So let's get started with you, Mary Payne. What were your overall thoughts on these first two episodes that we watched? I thought it was great.

[00:03:08] I didn't – I mean, I knew it was about reptile smuggling as it would be about tiger smuggling or chimpanzee smuggling. So I was like, all right, I've got the idea. But my daughter, who's 23, watched the first episode with me. She knew every type of snake, every type of iguana, every type of everything that popped on the screen, to which I'm like, huh? She was like, I love all these reptiles. One day when I don't live here, which I'm like, when will that be? Any day, please.

[00:03:37] She says, one day when I don't live here, I'm going to get a blah-bidi-blah. And I was like, okay, great. Not in my house. But she knew all about – I mean, some of these snakes, you know, the way that it's shot, they are beautiful animals. I don't want them in my home, but they are beautiful animals and the way they describe them. But I just don't get the feeling – like with the chimpanzee people, they really loved those animals. Like they were family members.

[00:04:05] I don't get that feeling that these – have these for the reptiles. It's all about the money. And I'm hoping as we go along, somebody's going to get eaten by an alligator. That's what I'm hoping. That's what I'm praying for. One of the bad guys is they're just going to throw them right with the alligators. How can you tell the bad guys, Mary Payne? Well, I – Quite easily. They seem to all be bad. Yeah. I do – the DEA agents, though, that are such badasses.

[00:04:33] That one guy that was like – you know, one time I had a drug kingpin say, one day somebody like me is going to show up at your door. And he said, I dream about the day somebody like you shows up at my door. I masturbate thinking about – I was like, well, we just went somewhere we didn't need to. Jeez. Yeah. Jeez. He also says, knock, knock, knock. We're the police. You're not. It's like, okay. All right. Stupid.

[00:04:59] But those guys, I loved – I loved that aspect of it, of like the good guys versus the bad guys, you know? I kind of – which they all seem to be kind of jerky. But I don't know. I just – I think it was a very well-done documentary from the two parts I saw. And I'm going to watch the whole thing now. Okay. Great. Yeah. And, Mary, what about you? What are your overall thoughts on this docuseries, the first two episodes that we watched? I thought it was interesting.

[00:05:25] I watched it not knowing that the director who directed Tiger King directed this. But as I watched it, I was like, oh, this is Tiger King. Literally, I was just like, this is Tiger King for Reptiles. I think I watched Chimp Crazy. I can't remember. I feel like I at least started it. But I will say, Mary Payne, this did make me kind of get the whole Reptiles thing.

[00:05:52] Maybe it's because I'm coming straight off of watching House of the Dragon for the last two months. Okay. But the appeal for Reptiles to me is just the beauty and, like, the magnetism of it. Like, the indigo snake they talked about in episode one. I'm not going to lie. I ended up – yeah, I ended up down a rabbit hole, like a TikTok rabbit hole, looking for videos of that snake.

[00:06:21] That is a beautiful snake. The Fijian iguana was very pretty as well. Like, the bright green with the – maybe it was even just them describing it and showing the animal. That was just so captivating. But this did make me think of, like, reptiles in a different way because I've never wanted to own a reptile. We are dog people. Yeah.

[00:06:48] But I do have cousins that have, like – one of my cousins has a Komodo dragon. And, like I said, I've been watching House of the Dragon and I've been saying on that podcast every day, I want – and we just went to the aquarium. We just took my kids to the aquarium. So, I said I want a long – like, a long-necked turtle and I want to name it Caraxes. So, I want to name it after one of the dragons on House of the Dragon.

[00:07:14] So, this really – this really did make me think, huh, do I want a reptile? Only for two seconds because this isn't – this is – excuse my language. This is a lot of white trash stuff. Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. Yeah. We are in it. Mm-hmm. Agree. But the two episodes, like I said, I was in it. I was in it. I really was. It was very fascinating. And then it was, like, a lot of history, too.

[00:07:44] And it does make you want more. Like, I do want to watch the rest because I would say that these first two episodes kind of just – it kind of explains, like, like I said, like the 60s to around the 80s, you know? We're, like, cocaine America is around where it ends. So, I'm really wondering if the next, like, four episodes is going to continue because the way that they were explaining how they were smuggling the snakes in, I was like, how are you doing that now? You know? Like, airport security is totally different now.

[00:08:13] So, I really – Yeah, you can't fill your suitcase with snakes like you used to. Yeah. Back in the good old days, you just get a suitcase full of snakes. Come on back from Malaysia, nobody's going to notice. Or – And you put the drugs on to the knees. Yeah. Yeah, you put the – or you put the snakes in your trousers and you just walk right on through. Can you imagine? Can you imagine? Oh, it's a python in my pants. No, actually, it's a python in my pants. It's an actual python in my pants. Yeah. Yeah. So, I'm so intrigued. I'm so intrigued.

[00:08:41] I will be tuned in for more, for real. Yeah, for real. Me too. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I really liked this. I'm definitely watching more. In fact, I started episode three because I was intrigued. All the episodes have dropped now. It was a weekly drop, which I just think it's so exciting. There's something about that old style. But if you like to binge, you're free to do so now as they have all dropped.

[00:09:07] I loved the filming of this. The way they do the macro filming of the reptiles, the snakes, the frogs, the underside of things, the licking, the eyes. It's very, very beautiful. And you start thinking, well, the reptiles are more beautiful than the people. That's for sure. A thousand percent. A thousand percent. I love it, yes. I mean, I had to close my eyes a couple of times because there's some tarantulas in episode three.

[00:09:37] So, if you're like me. Oh. Mm-hmm. But I adore snakes. And I, I mean, look, I wouldn't because they smell. But I would love a snake as a pet. I think they're absolutely beautiful. Of course, in Australia, we live with snakes. There's one on every corner, as you can imagine. Yeah. Tourists worry about it. Yes, that's one of the reasons. I think sometimes people don't go to Australia because of the critters. But, but we have a house in North Carolina at the beach.

[00:10:04] And I was by myself there for a good amount of time this summer and went into the garage one day to go pull the golf cart out where we are. It's only golf carts. And that's your transportation. So, I go to pull my little golf cart out to go to the store or whatever. There was a huge red long snake. And I was like, ha, I got, I jumped backwards and like, can I get in the golf cart without it getting me? Now, everyone on the island knows it's a corn snake. It's perfectly fine. Fine. It eats mice or rats or whatever. But it will scare you to death.

[00:10:34] Just, you know, knowing that it's not poisonous and you're not in Australia, which I think a lot of them are. It's not going to get me. It doesn't want me. But it will scare you. But it's a beautiful, it was a beautiful red, bright red snake with black rings around it in the garage. And it gives you a minute. But people are like, oh, weren't you scared? I go, it took me a second. But they're really pretty animals.

[00:10:57] And then you think, now somebody's, not those snakes, but these gorgeous snakes, especially that red one they kept showing with the fangs. You keep thinking, these are so beautiful. And somebody goes over there and pulls them out of trees and then brings them out of their natural habitat to sell them and mate them. And it's all just so gross. But I guess we've already seen it with Tiger King Chimp Crazy, too. But something about the reptiles, they're so much smaller. I don't know. They seem so much more vulnerable, I guess.

[00:11:27] I will say, growing up in Hawaii, I was so used to, there's no snakes in Hawaii. It's a very famous thing. There's no snakes because we have mongeese. Da-da-da-da-da-da. And so, like, I've never had a fear of snakes. Come over here, I see a snake in the garden, common green snake. It scares the crap out of me. So that's why it was really interesting that I found some of these reptiles fascinating. Again, I think it's House of the Dragon.

[00:11:56] It's influencing me. But yeah, that's why I say snakes. I don't think I'm necessarily afraid of snakes, per se. I just, I don't want to bother them so they don't bother me type thing. Well, I mean, that's the thing. You're in the way. You're not on the menu. They're not coming for us. You know? Right, right. They're like sharks. Sharks are not coming for us. They are just in their own habitat. We are in the way.

[00:12:26] Not on the menu, as I say. It doesn't help if they bite your leg off. No. This is someone who lives in Australia. It's like, great white sharks won't bother you. Sure. They, look, a juvenile will come for you because they don't know what things are and they attack from, at speed from a long distance. But other sharks are just generally, they would rather just carry on their own life. Don't swim in bait balls.

[00:12:52] If you're swimming and you're suddenly surrounded by swirling salmon in the ocean, get out of there because they'll bite you by mistake. Don't swim at dusk. Don't swim at dawn. Don't swim where two types of water meet. So don't swim at the mouth of rivers going into the sea. And don't, if there's a little cove, don't swim where the water is the narrowest. So if you do all of that. The beach where we go is a river that meets the sea and they come together like the waves

[00:13:21] crash together the way it is. Oh, how wonderful. And that's where all of the sharks are. So if you want to go and like really look, you could just stand there and you can see some. I don't go in the ocean for all the reasons you just named. I just look at it and say, isn't it gorgeous? And I go back to my chair. Yes. Yes. But these reptiles, I think it's very interesting talking about the love of them or the affection

[00:13:46] towards them because the way they handle these animals is very casual. They pick them up. They throw them in bags. They put them, we're going to see in episode three, they put them inside deli containers. You know that your salad comes in, a round container with the lid, stick a lizard in there, stick the lid on. I don't see any air holes. Wow. So it's interesting. It's like product.

[00:14:13] And the fact that the drugs come in and are related is, again, it's product and it's moving product. Mary Payne, did you see a natural marrying of reptiles and drugs once you saw the types of people who are involved in the business? I did. And especially because, you know, we're talking about Miami and that area and that time of, you know, in the 80s, the 90s.

[00:14:41] And they're like Miami built, I mean, cocaine built Miami. You know, we've all heard this. This is not news. But it is pretty interesting that some of these guys, it's sort of like the guy with the big muscle car. You're like, you know, the stereotype is like, you know, little dick, big car or whatever. So you think these guys are like, oh, I'm going to get these snakes. And it's so like phallic and stupid that, of course, these guys then are going to like put the pinky rings and now they're the drug dealers. Right.

[00:15:09] Just to me, it all seems so stereotypical to go together. There's almost like somebody wrote it, but it actually happened. You know? Yeah. Mary, did you get the feeling like all the way through people are saying, oh, don't talk to that person. They're really dangerous. Oh, you did not ask questions about that person. They're really dangerous. Were they or is this just the mythology that these mostly men, almost entirely men and a lesbian are building around the business? She says in episode three, she says the plumbing's wrong.

[00:15:38] I don't do dicks. So it's worth watching the episode just for that. Right. It felt like a way to introduce them. You know, the big bad, the first big bad we get is Hank Maltz because we have Tommy Crutchfield, his adversary talking about like, oh, he's a horrible human. He's this, this and that.

[00:16:04] And you know, I love when they play another interviewer's interview for somebody else and you could hear the producer playing Tommy Crutchfield's, his description of Hank to Hank. And Hank is like, yeah, he's a, this isn't that. And it's funny, both of them going back and forth. It was typical Tiger King. Like that, that is when I was like, oh, this is, this is Tiger King. But that's what it is. It's like, oh, Hank Maltz is a big bad dude.

[00:16:33] Oh, Tommy Crutchfield's the big bad dude. Oh, Ray Van Nostrand is a big bad dude. I have a little bit of issues with how they treated Ray Van Nostrand, which is weird since I'm like, this is a bad dude. Yeah. I was going to bring that up to talk on that, Larry. So, so Ray Van Nostrand has Alzheimer's and dementia and he is interviewed in the documentary. I was going to ask what, what you felt about that. Yeah. Like I didn't, I didn't, I thought it was icky.

[00:17:02] At first, because when we first meet him, they just ask him stuff like, where were you born? He's like, I, I, I don't really know. Um, when did you guys move to Florida? Why did you move to Florida? He was like, you know, I don't really remember. And, and he just said, I remember like two, three questions back to back. And this is our first introduction to him. And then immediately you go to his wife who was like, oh yeah, he has Alzheimer and dementia and dementia and she's talking about him.

[00:17:32] He's in the back. Like he's, yeah. He's in the back over her shoulder, just like rubbing their cat. Like he's like so far in the back. He's not even paying attention. He's like watching TV or something, just chilling in the back, rubbing their cat. And I was like, well, why would you do that? Why would you introduce him like that and make it seem like shady? He said, I don't remember. I don't remember to like just simple stuff. He's, he didn't remember where he was born. Didn't remember the reason, um, for them coming to Florida and stuff like that.

[00:18:01] You made him look so shady just to be like, oh no, look, he has Alzheimer and dementia. And now I'm like, that was kind of weird, you know? And then they're, they're showing them around and he doesn't remember stuff. And it, and it, and they're calling them pop. So he looks just like a, you know, an old grandpa, like a nice cuddly old grandpa who has dementia. And then you go and you tell me all the horrible things he did to the animals and drug running. And I'm like, what?

[00:18:27] I like how he, he was like, he goes, we would did, he goes, I mean, my understanding is like we sold drugs and stuff, but not the bad kind. And I don't think I ever shot or killed anybody. And the son's like, no dad, you never shot and killed anybody. Like, I was like, oh my God, this is bad. But you're right. They tried to make it look like at the beginning, he was one of these. I don't remember. I don't remember. But really he doesn't remember, you know? Mary Payne, did you think though that that was mitigated by, we continue, we continue to

[00:18:57] see him, but after that he's always in the company of one of his sons. Right. And the son is one of whichever one it is. He's got three. We'll be reminding him and showing him photos and talking about the reptiles and showing him the reptiles and giving them the reptiles to hold. Did you, because I was at first very off put as well, but I started to think there's a

[00:19:21] really interesting tiny side story here of having an Alzheimer's sufferer involved in day-to-day life. He's not put away. He's just kind of hanging around with the family. Yeah. And I think it's interesting too, like you see sometimes with Alzheimer's patients that they, something from really a long time ago will be familiar to them. Like you saw that there was a thing about Tony Bennett. He couldn't remember anything, but you put on music and he remembered it perfectly.

[00:19:50] And I think it was interesting that they hand him a snake. He's like, well, this is beautiful. So he, something in him remembers that he loves these reptiles. Right. Um, I thought that was interesting. You know, they're telling us all the horrible things he did. And even the sons were like, oh, he was a horrible father. He left us for years. And after, after he left the reptiles, he went for the drugs and the ex-wife was like, oh my God, he was a horrible husband. So they go through all this thing. And I have to imagine at some point in the documentary, we're going to come back around

[00:20:18] to how the family has, because he seemed to be kind of a bad dude in his day to his family and, you know, legally. So I hope that we're going to come back around in that story of how they all came back together. Because it is interesting what you're saying about, it is a little side story about his family and how he has Alzheimer's, but the snakes and things don't scare him. A normal person would be afraid if you handed them a 10 foot snake, but he was like, oh,

[00:20:46] this is a beauty and all this, you know? So it's something in him that remembered it. I thought that was interesting as a little side quest as well. Yeah. He was cradling that snake almost with love. You think? Yes. Maybe you love the snakes and the drugs more than your family, question mark? Yeah, seems. Mary Pan, I was going to ask you, it's five episodes. We've seen two. I must say when I started, I thought, how can this be five episodes?

[00:21:12] But do you think that there's enough, having not seen the back three, do you think that there's going to be enough story to fill the episodes? Do you find them tight or do you find them loose? I found them tight. And what I found was interesting with, like I said, the first episode I watched with my daughter and she immediately wanted to roll into two, but it was late at night. And I said, you know, no. But so I started watching the second one today and we were introduced to the whole new, the whole new guy, the Van Anstead guy.

[00:21:40] And I was like, okay, so that's what probably is going to happen as we roll through. There's going to be, you know, and not to use a metaphor, but you cut off the head of a snake, another one sprouts right back up, you know? So it doesn't matter if this guy is in jail for three years. Well, there's another guy right under him. This guy comes, you know, it's like the Sopranos, right? You know, somebody goes to jail for a little bit. The guy comes back out, tries to overtake his position. And it all kind of goes into this.

[00:22:06] I think we're going to get a little bit more into this mafia drug dealing side of the reptiles. I don't know. The whole, I don't know. There was so much interesting about it. I'm a huge alligator lover. I don't want to like get near them or anything. But for the island where we have our beach house, they have lots of protected alligators. And I love to go every afternoon on my cart and look for them in the protected areas, not just like walking around looking for them. But I'm so fascinated by them.

[00:22:33] And the guy that was just throwing the containers of rats out to the alligators, I was like, this is not how alligators live. They don't like to be close to each other like this. They're very territorial in their own ponds. And so they've sort of been made to go against their natural instinct. And I think all of that's kind of kind of come into play. And I'll be interested to see where it ends with the fish and wildlife and, you know, that whole storyline of how it's going to end for that organization of the government. I don't know.

[00:23:03] I'm just, I'm going to watch the whole thing. And I have zero time in my life to watch the whole thing. But now I'm so interested to see where we're going to end up in current day. Yeah. Yeah. Murray, did you find it interesting the, I mean, we are no fans of any law enforcement here, but did you find it interesting the background of the duck cops as they were called fish and wildlife and how they were turning into almost a paramilitary organization, it looked like. And they had their own prosecutors.

[00:23:33] Literally, that's exactly my thought process. I was like, oh, look at the cute duck cops to like showing us training of them shooting people. I was like, huh? Wow. Like, why does every aspect of our security in our country has to be paramilitarized? It was, that was my exact thought, Sarah. I was like, this is a little too much. Yes. And then, but it was kind of weird because also didn't, like we had the one guy saying like, a lot of people don't think that wildlife crimes are crimes.

[00:24:02] And I'm like, I'm trying not to be like those people because it is crimes. Because like Mary Payne said, you can't just be taking reptiles out of their natural habitat and selling them to rich people or stuff like, or burying them in shallow graves. Oh, my God. Oh, that was horrible. So, yeah, it was very interesting to see the evolution of the fish and wildlife services. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I thought so too.

[00:24:32] So, towards the end of episode two, Ray's gone to jail and Michael, who has no interest in reptiles and wanted to be an accountant, doesn't look much like an accountant, but he wanted to be an accountant. Good for you, Michael. He takes over the family business and we are told he opens a very successful legal reptile business. And then Ray gets out of jail, goes to work for Mike and everything changes.

[00:25:01] So, when I started episode three, it is indeed that he has no love for the product, but he has a great brain and he's running this multi-million dollar legal reptile business. So, Murray, if there's so much money to be made in the legal reptile business, I don't want to be naive, but why are you going for exotic and illegal animals? Oh, she's smiling at me. Like I'm an idiot. It's that little dick syndrome, you know?

[00:25:29] It's never enough, right? It's never enough to dabble in legal animal transport. You have to be big and bad. You have to own the rarest thing ever. Like it's just ego. It's just ego. And mostly male ego here. You know what I'm saying? Like that's all it is. It's that hubris or lack thereof, whatever. But when you're so rich and you just want to collect them all and you want to say, I have

[00:25:59] something that you don't have. Yes. That's it. Yeah. I completely agree. That for these guys, that's all it seems. That's all that it is. Like you don't have this particular thing, but I do have it. It's like the idea of Mike Tyson having a white tiger walking around his house. Like why? You know why? It makes no sense, right? Well, it's interesting because a lot of these guys have tigers as well. So it's like, oh God. Apparently straight women tell me if you're crouching by a tiger in your profile picture,

[00:26:29] we will be swiping left. What if you're holding a big giant snake to indicate your giant dick? Are you going to be swiping? Yeah. How fast can you swipe? Yes. Swipe on, swipe on, swipe on. Can you filter? Can you filter? No tigers? Yes. Yeah. So if you want to know more outside of the docuseries, there's a book from 2008 called

[00:26:55] The Lizard King, The True Crimes and Passions of the World's Greatest Reptile Smugglers by Brian Christie. Brian, I have a bit of an issue with the adjective, but I'm sure your book is very fine. We actually have him here in the docuseries as well, talking to us from his great knowledge. He seems to admire them. Murray, what other talking heads stood out for you? I would say, who was the lady who had the bare feet?

[00:27:22] She was the, who didn't want to say the drugs were in the... She does. All I wrote in my notes was, why is she barefoot? Why are we barefoot? Why are we barefoot? Seems like a health and safety issue. Right. Wasn't that like a pet shop or something? She's a pet shop. I was disgusted. Lucky I brought my slippers to Milwaukee for the hotel. And what about you, Mary Pan?

[00:27:50] Was there any talking head that we haven't mentioned who stood out for you? I liked the... It's Ray Van Anstead. Is that who we're talking about? That guy? Yes. Is that his name? Nostrand. The guy with the three names. I liked his ex-wife. Elaine. Wow. Yeah, I liked Elaine. She's just like, I never liked snakes. I don't like them today. I had to get used to it. I didn't want to move to Florida. I didn't want to move to Florida. Yeah.

[00:28:17] And she shows like their prom picture of until now. And there he is in the background petting the cat with Alzheimer's. But she's still around because, you know, that's the ex and probably, you know, there for her kids and stuff. I thought she was interesting. I really did. Yeah. Yeah. I'm interested to hear more from her as the episodes go on. And so, Mary Payne, how many magnifying glasses are you going to rate the first two episodes of Monsters of God out of a possible five? And I was going to ask you if you were going to keep watching, but I think I know the answer.

[00:28:45] I am going to keep watching and I'm going to give it a five out of five. Yeah. Because I thought Tiger King was great. I thought Chimp Crazy was great. I thought Chimp Crazy dragged on a little bit. And Tiger King, Lord knows, I mean, they could probably still be putting out episodes today. But I would give it five out of five. I think it's really good. I think it's really well done. And I liked how Eric Good said at the beginning, I've always collected these rare animals. And now I'm realizing I was part of the problem. I like how we started off that way.

[00:29:13] And I think we'll probably end that way as well, if I had to guess. And Murray, what about you? How many magnifying glasses for you? So, not going to lie, maybe it is such the close association to Tiger King. It feels like a weak copy of it, in a sense. I liked the two episodes. I thought it was pretty interesting and stuff like that. But I don't know.

[00:29:42] Something about it, I can't just give it a five. I know it's like, well, what are you taking the point away from? But it's just like, I still don't know how they're going to. I don't know. I don't think you can, five episodes. Maybe after I watch, I might change my tune. But I don't know how you can get five episodes out of this, to be quite honest. Because I did feel like they kind of stretched with these two episodes, I thought. There was a little stretching down.

[00:30:11] I don't know if both episodes needed to be 50 plus minutes. I think we could have done with some 45-minute episodes here, for me. Like, do we need that segment of Hank switching hats, talking about how he was in disguise? Now, come on now. That was some excellent film work right there. Funny. But I'm just like, what? Like, sometimes I took disguises. Pink hat.

[00:30:41] Yellow hat. What? So, I don't know if it's a five. I'll give it a, I'll definitely give it a 4.5, though. That, that's for sure. Sarah, how about you? What are you going to rate Monsters of God? I'm going to go 4.75, because I keep thinking five, and then I get four and a half. I thought it was great. I didn't find that it dragged. I am wondering how they're going to feel five. But to rate just these two episodes, ah, fuck it, five.

[00:31:11] I'm going to give it a five. I particularly liked the, you know how we like the victims to be centered in our crime documentaries? Well, if the reptiles can be said to be the victims, they are certainly centers, because they are shot. Some of them are shot a little bit like soft porn when they were talking about the Fijian iguana. There was a long, lingering slow pan across the body. But, I mean, they are very beautiful. And they're given their names.

[00:31:39] The ones that actually have names, they get a chiron to themselves. Otherwise, it's their common and their zoological name. One thing I didn't mention, which I loved, was Tommy Crutchfield. We meet him very early. And he bleeds throughout all the interviews. He's been bitten by snakes. And he's like, it's fine. He was bitten. He's either got blood or he's got a plaster on. So I started actually looking at when he was filmed at different times. Yeah, he's always got plasters all over his arms.

[00:32:08] That amused me enormously. I will finish it. I'm interested to see if they get into the animals that escape into the wild and wreak havoc with the environment. Because they don't belong here. It's not their fault. They don't belong here. I did like the idea of who's complicit. And they talked about the zoos that are complicit who didn't ask where the animals came from.

[00:32:37] And how there's a sort of plausible deniability. And people saying, yeah, everybody knows where all this stuff came from. So I'm interested to see if all those threads tie together. But I'm going to give it a five for now. Which is really funny. Because, again, we went to the zoo this summer. We went to the Washington National Zoo. Yeah. The kids to the Washington National Zoo. And I was like, ooh. Yeah. I was like, oh, huh. Yeah. I went to the Cincinnati Zoo last year.

[00:33:07] I went to a Billie Eilish concert in Cincinnati with my daughter. We went to the Cincinnati Zoo. And there's a kangaroo thing where you can just walk around amongst the kangaroos. Now, there's people in there to make sure you don't get close. But that's interesting to me. Because I was like, we don't have kangaroos here. But also, and then the same thing. The reptile enclosure is always my daughter's favorite. Because she loves to. She tells me about the various ones. But same thing with the Washington National Zoo. Kind of saved these guys.

[00:33:36] Because they were like, you can't talk about the Smithsonian National Zoo. Because of all the congressmen and senators that are on the board. So that kind of saves all the zoos. It's interesting. Where do they come from? Yeah. From being prosecuted. Yeah. Absolutely. All very interesting. Well, that's a recommend from all of us. Now, speaking of recommends, let's get to our other recommendations. Mary Payne, you're covering Love is Blind UK. Mari's mentioned it a few times. What's so good about it, you two? Discuss.

[00:34:06] This season is great. This season of Love is Blind UK is season three is really good. You've got right. Here's why I think. And, Mara, you watch a lot of stuff like I do. The reason I think it's great is because it moves very fast. And Love is Blind in the past. There's so much filler and so many people that we don't need to get to know. For me, when I'm taking notes with it, I'm like mad at the end of an episode. Because none of these people are in the couples. And none of these people are pod squad that we need to know for later.

[00:34:36] They've cleaned it up. They've made it very tight. Made it very tight. And you get the first eight episodes that once dropped, which Netflix doesn't usually do. They usually give us like four. So that was fun for me, writing notes. But you learn so much by the end of the first drop that you're so in. I don't know. It's very good. You right away have a couple of villains, girls, and guys. And I like that in My Love is Blind.

[00:35:03] I like somebody that I like to watch who in the pod squad likes the guys. You know, like if all the guys like that guy. Or if you can tell all the guys are annoyed with that guy. And same with the women. And same with the women. You can tell as a whole, do the women like this girl? Is she a girl's girl? Do they like her? Are they rooting for her? Are they rolling their eyes every time she comes in? I just think it's so fascinating. And I will tell you something about Love is Blind.

[00:35:29] Love is Blind, just across all the dating shows and marrying shows and stuff, does have the highest success rate of marriages that people are still together, which is wild. Yeah. Yeah. Wild that if you get to know somebody on an emotional level first instead of physical, that it works out. Kind of shocker. Yeah. No, I agree. I am, because they dropped eight. So then how many, do you know how many episodes total the season is? Yes, it's 11 total.

[00:36:00] And then the reunion will be number 12. So the wedding episodes are, they're going to drop nine and 10 together. And the weddings are in 10. And then 11, of course, because that'll be, will they or won't they? And then 12 will be the reunion. Yeah. Okay. So that's what I thought. That is like, that's like the normal drop, drop. That's a normal episode. Amount. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. When they dropped eight, I was like, why? Why? You're like, it's too much for me.

[00:36:30] Because I do like to go, like, I like how they drop. I don't know if it's because it's the UK one, but they normally drop you, the US, like four episodes at a time. Yes. Yeah. This is brand new. They've never done this. Exactly. And it's rough for the podcasters. I, it's rough for the podcasters. And it's rough for like, cause I'm, I was watching it, but like I said, I have stuff to do. So I didn't watch the whole thing, which means I can't go on social media. Right.

[00:36:58] And say, oh my gosh, you're the best. Don't cry. Because I can't, I can't say that because I didn't see the rest of the episodes. I don't know what happened to the rest of the episodes. Let me tell you something. Don't say that about her. Cause she turns out not to be so great. I, I gotta see it. Cause I, I gotta see it. You gotta see it. So yeah. So, um, I, uh, I, I was really, I was really shocked that, that that's how they decide. That's how they decide to drop it.

[00:37:26] Um, but can't wait to, to finish it. I, this, I think the season is, has been really good cause it does feel like a lot of like love connections. Um, but like I said, uh, I, I haven't gotten a chance to, to watch too many episodes yet. So we will see, we will see. I don't, I don't feel a sense of dread. Like I normally do in some, you know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah. Oh Lord. Sometimes you're like, these people are boring or that guy's so such a liar. Why can't anybody see it?

[00:37:55] But yeah, I feel pretty good about the couples that we're left with. I feel pretty good about all of them. I always, I believe in their love. So I still, I believe in their love for at least four of these couples and that's a pretty high ratio. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And the other thing you're watching and covering that Mario also watched is double lives of suburban wives. Yes. What's going on? Yeah. You have to say like, like 10 times in your head to make sure you got it right.

[00:38:25] It's hard. Cause you're like double secret lives of Mormon. No, there's no Mormons. Yeah. It's hard. It's a, it's a rough title. It's a rough title. Um, double lives of only fans creators outside of St. Louis, you know? Um, it's, it's interesting. It's so funny how they talk on the show a lot about, well, when people find out what we're doing and people find out, I was like, you're having TLC camera crew following you, you know?

[00:38:54] And the one girl's like, I told my dad, the show was about, um, homemakers in the St. Louis area. I was like, okay. Well, they're making something. Mary Payne. How about in the first, the first episode, they're like, Oh my God, are those guys pulling their camera out to, did they notice you? Did they, did they, first off, they look like they were just looking at their phones like normal, regular people. Did it look like they were taking pictures of them at all? And second of all, you have a camera following you. You have a camera following you.

[00:39:23] You have a cameraman and a, and a boom mic. Do you think the people at the restaurant are like, Hey, what's going on over there? Let me take a picture. I'm going to put it on a Reddit and see if anybody knows. Yeah. That's why not because they, they don't know you're on only Erica swings with a Z and you've got like 2000 followers. Come on now. Yeah. Does she only have 2000 followers? That's kind of funny. A lot of them, a lot of them when you first, when the show first started, they all had very

[00:39:50] low, um, Instagram, TikTok type of numbers. And they say that they have to boost the social media to get people to click through, right. To get to the only fans, but their social media numbers are low. I think the only one when the show started, I can't tell you about now that was making bank was Brie because she was a national news story because she got fired from her job. Yeah. And that, and that's exactly why when they, when they were like, Oh, I'm so scared to come out. I'm like, no, you're not.

[00:40:18] Cause your views are going to go up this. Let's be real. The show is just going to help you. Yeah. It's going to help your, your, um, your OS subscription. So we'll wait till you meet and get to understand what Emily does. Because as of right now, when we're recording this, Emily hasn't said what she does, but when the next episode comes out, Emily with the red hair explains what she does and she does all, um, kink stuff, but she really never takes her clothes off.

[00:40:45] It's a lot of, um, shooting from the feet down and pretending she's a giant. It's like giant kink or it's like pretend to give, uh, uh, poop out, um, eggs and be a chicken. It's like weird kink stuff that she does where she like feeds people. Like you're not fat enough and feeds people. So I was like, she's the smart one. I was going to say. She doesn't have to do, she just has. Don't have to take your clothes off. No.

[00:41:12] She just like dusting's like, like gets a balloon. It's like, I'm going to pop it. Is it going to pop? Ooh, I almost popped it. Ooh, that balloon. Is it going to pop? She does like five minutes of that. She does the, she does the Facebook, the Facebook video shit that I hate. Like the, Oh my God, I'm going to pull this, this, um, this jar off of this cake. And then when I do that, all the sprinkles are going to come down. Yeah. I'm about to do, it's that weird. It's that we're not, we're not kink shaming.

[00:41:42] We're kink asking why. Yeah. And it's, it's the, it's the, it's the, the hand content. It's the, it's the backdoor hand fetish content where you didn't, you don't realize you're watching hand fetish content. Cause you're like, when is she going to pull this glass off? Yes. Yes. You sit there and you watch it for five minutes and she never does. Yeah. It gets you on Facebook every time. Yeah. Yeah. Cause I'm like, it's going to be a beautiful cake if they'll ever just fix it. But her stuff is interesting because she'll be like, she'll be like, I have five requests today.

[00:42:10] And it's like, one is to just sit on this balloon and she's like, okay. And then another one is, you know, to pretend to birth eggs. Another one is with a red high heel, like step on a, um, a cutie orange and squish it. I was like, this girl's got it figured out. She didn't have to do anything gross. It's like a food. It's like a, she just, she just says she gets requests and she does what they ask.

[00:42:36] And then if she does like the feeding ones, then after the person gets their request that they pay $2,000 for, then she can put it on her page and make money from it again. From other people that want to look at her, pretend to feed you or be a giant or spank that baby. Or, I mean, it's just, I was like, this girl's got it figured out. She's got it figured out. Maybe I could do disappointed mother porn. We talked about this on our show today. Yes. Oh, did you?

[00:43:06] So I think I could do that very well. Disappointed mother. Because there's a neighbor and we're like, what could her porn be? She could be bad, bad boy. Yeah. Yeah. You didn't clean your room. I'll do the underwear thing. I'll do the underwear. Wear some underwear. Wear it. Get all sweaty. Vacuum seal it. You don't even have to wear it. You just make your formula up. You're a chemist. Make a formula up and spritz it. Oh, even smarter. I'll actually wear it for the money. Okay. As long as you don't want any pictures. As long as you don't want any pictures, you go along with it. W, W, W dot. I know.

[00:43:37] And the husband's in there running the vacuum seal machine. Yeah. All of the husbands are like helping Sarah. Like they're all like taking the pictures. I would say all of the husbands came up with the idea for their wives to be on OnlyFans. Every single one were like, should this be called Pimp My Wife? Pimp My Wife. Yeah. That's a catchier title than Double Wives of Three. Totally. Totally. Yeah. But I would recommend that show just because it's so weird. Yeah. It's so weird.

[00:44:07] Yeah. So good. I'm so glad we get to talk weird stuff. Yeah. And what about you, Mari? Mari, what do you have to recommend to the people? Well. Uh-oh. We're back at it. Like I said last week, Tyler Perry has dropped season three of Beauty and Black. Me, Chappelle, and Matt had a grand old time talking about it on Recap Kickback.

[00:44:33] It's, I'm only recommending it so you can then come and listen to me, Chappelle, and Matt talk about it on Recap Kickback. Or maybe just come straight to Recap Kickback. Um, we, on a whim decided to cover season one of Tyler Perry's Beauty and Black literally two years ago. He, and he's already dropped season three. And not only has he dropped season three, but the way that he does his seasons, it's eight episodes per half season.

[00:45:01] So, uh, so season three is about to start and it's about to start on like episode like 36 or something. I don't know. Um, yeah, 32. Like it, I'm saying season three, but it feels like season six. And it's only been two years. It premiered two years ago. Tyler Perry is a freaking madman. He freaking films these in four days and then puts them out.

[00:45:29] And then me, Matt and Chappelle have to talk about how the time, the, the physical time between season one and season two is nine days. Did you see that clip, Sarah? No. Oh my God. I have to, I'll, I'll post the clip again, but last season at the, at the end of the season, Matt, Matt said he went back and he watched, he started at season one and he watched and

[00:45:59] he, he specifically looked for the change in days and he specifically counted how many days had occurred between season one and season two. And he had me and Chappelle guess. And I was like, Oh, it has to be like four weeks or something. Chappelle said three months. Matt said nine days. And, and when I tell you, Sarah, I could not breathe for like 10 minutes. I'm pretty sure I said this on the podcast already, but like, it was the funniest thing I've ever encountered in my life.

[00:46:29] Because mind you, between season one and season two in nine days, we had people dying, car explosions, um, uh, wills being transferred, uh, people setting people up to take falls. Like it was, it's so soap opera and all this stuff happened in nine days. So I say all that to say, please come and listen to me, Chappelle and Matt talk about Beauty and Black. We do it for you guys. We really do.

[00:46:56] Um, we, we do actually get a lot of funny feedback, um, on the YouTube. Go, go watch Beauty and Black or go listen to us talk about it. Sarah, how about you? What do you have to recommend to the audience? Well, a great thing about long haul flights and spending 44 hours on Amtrak from Chicago to LA, you get a lot of time to read.

[00:47:19] So two books I want to recommend, uh, nonfiction, a book called The Dead Speak, My Life in Forensics. It's a memoir by Thomas Coyle. It's very processy. So I enjoyed that side of it. And he takes us through his career, but particularly interesting, the disaster victim identification work that he did on the Boxing Day tsunami in Thailand and the, uh, Christchurch earthquake.

[00:47:44] So I left that book with Mari in America and I'd be interested to hear what you have to say once you, if you get a chance to read it. Oh yeah. And then, uh, fiction, Mad Mabel by Sally Hepworth. Now she's an Australian thriller writer. She's wonderful. I love her work. And in this book, Mabel is 81. She finds her neighbor dead and her old nickname of Mad Mabel resurfaces.

[00:48:11] As a child, she witnessed a bloody tragedy and rumors swirled around her at the time. And now she's telling her story to two young podcasters. So good on you, Sally. It's a super read. Uh, you'll rip through it. Uh, and then you'll, if you haven't read her before, you will be going back and getting all her other stuff. Sarah, first off, so funny. Audible had recommended Mad Mabel to me.

[00:48:36] Like I, you know how, I don't know if you know, when you open Audible, like even if you're listening to a book, the first thing they show you is something that they recommend to you. And Mad Mabel has been recommended to me for like the past two days. I didn't even like look into it. You know what, Sarah, that actually reminds me. I do have a book recommendation as well. So let me jump back in here. I just finished None of This is True by Lisa Jewell. And it was such a great read.

[00:49:03] Uh, um, my friend, uh, sent me a reel of like, uh, two black women basically, uh, rating 50 thrillers, 50 thriller books that they read. And literally the rating is yes, no, yes, no. Like, and depending on how enthusiastic the yes is, is how much they recommend it. So, and I'm a thriller. We, we all know I'm a thriller book, uh, junkie. So I'm a thriller book aficionado.

[00:49:32] So, uh, this was on it. None of This is True by Lisa Jewell. And I, I devoured this book. It is so good. And what your book reminded me, because this is a book that also is about a podcaster. It's about, um, uh, a woman who on her 45th birthday, another woman in the bathroom of the same pub as her is based in, um, London.

[00:49:59] Uh, she says, hi, I'm your birthday twin. Uh, and, um, from then on the two women, uh, are kind of like embroiled in like a cat and mouse game. The, the woman, one of the women is a podcaster and the other woman is like, I want you to podcast about my life. I'm about to change my life. I want you to podcast about it. And it's told in such a fascinating way.

[00:50:29] Um, it's told linearly, uh, switching perspectives between the two main characters while also being interspersed with, um, snippets from a Netflix documentary that has been, that the podcast has been turned into. So you're getting like talking heads interspersed with the real story and the talking heads are saying stuff that, you know, you haven't gotten to in the story. And it is, it is stellar.

[00:50:59] The audio book is great. It's a full cast audio book. Like the, the list of narrators is so long because they literally have somebody to come in and do the voice for all of those interstitials, like of the like random. It's so cool. It's such a good audio book. I really, really enjoyed it. So, uh, again, none of this is true by Lisa Jewell. Fantastic. I've just ordered it from my library and I hope to get that soon.

[00:51:27] At Crime Scene, we're eager to hear your feedback and suggestions for future episodes. You can subscribe by going to crimescenepod.com or search Crime Scene, that's S-E-E-N, wherever you get your podcasts. You can follow Crime Scene everywhere at Crime Scene Pod or email us at crimescenepod at gmail.com. You can support us at buymeacoffee.com slash crimescenepod. You can sling us a couple of bucks or join our monthly membership.

[00:51:54] Members receive episodes early and ad free as well as other exclusive bonus content. You can also support us by buying our merch. We have Crime Scene Tumblers available at Mari's shop. Go to maricraftstomuch.bigcartel.com. And while you're there, you can look at her other book-themed Tumblers. If you don't find your favorite book, let her know and she will make something just for you. Link to the store is in the show notes.

[00:52:20] You can also support us for free by rating and reviewing Crime Scene so that others can find us. Five stars only. Five stars. Your support makes a huge difference. Mary Payne, what have you got going on and where can the people find you? Oh, my goodness. Well, you can listen to me wherever you find your podcast, as we say in the biz. And, you know, I'm covering, geez, I'm covering all the 90 Day Fiance shows. No matter what it is, bad or good, mostly good. They are usually good.

[00:52:49] I'm covering all of those. I'm covering a show called Age Inappropriate, which is just what it sounds like. That's a WeTV show. It's people that have, like, huge age differences and it's kind of creepy. I am covering Welcome to Plathville. I'm always doing a rewatch of Welcome to Plathville. Why? I love it. I think it's the best show that has ever been on television. This is my third time watching this series. Yeah.

[00:53:14] You discover something new and horrible about Kim Plath every time and it's great. It's really great. And over on my podcast, we did a deep dive into The Pastor's Wife, which was a Netflix documentary. So, lots going on over there, but if you just follow me over there on Pink Shade Pod on Instagram, we announce every week what we're covering and do some funny reels and things about the show. So, I would appreciate a follow. Thank you. It's a fantastic follow.

[00:53:42] And, Mari, what have you got going on? Where can the people find you? I know they want to. Yes, you can find me over on Blue Sky at MariTalksTooMuch. That's too like the number two. Talking all things Big Brother over there. Um, also, like I said, Recap Kickback. You can go to RecapKickback.com to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts. Or, better yet, you can go to YouTube and you can watch me, Chappelle, and Matt laugh our heads off.

[00:54:10] You can go to YouTube.com slash at Recap Kickback to watch all of our coverage over there. Chappelle has been making a really big push to get us some more subscribers over on YouTube. So, please subscribe. I think we just crossed the 3,000 mark. Yeah. So, we're really trying to push and get those numbers up. So, thank you guys so much for supporting just by subscribing. What about you, Sarah? Where can the people find you? The people can follow me on Blue Sky at Sarah Carradine.

[00:54:39] I'm covering non-English language seasons of The Traitors with Annabelle Fiddler over on Babes in the Conclave. And this time, we're talking about my people. It's Denmark Civilian Season 2. Mari, what are we watching next week? Next time on Crime Scene, we're covering death of a pastor's wife. I can't wait. I can't wait. On Netflix and send us your comments and questions. Thanks to Mary Payne for joining us. Will from America for the theme music.

[00:55:08] And snakes. Yes, snakes. Thank you for eating all the rats and the mice. Appreciate you. Don't eat those birds, though. Until next time. Case closed.