Death of The Pastor's Wife | Crime Seen episode 215

[00:00:24] I'm Sarah Carradine, podcasting from unceded Gadigal land. I'm Mari Forth. And this is Crime Seen, the true crime review podcast where we get to the heart of how true crime stories are told. Thank you to all of you who met us in Milwaukee last week and told us how much you liked the show. Thank you. And special thank you to our live audience at RehapCon for a very special podcast recording. That will be in the members feed at Buy Me A Coffee once Sarah has recovered from her jet lag

[00:00:53] and has edited it. I also need to recover from you voting me out in the traitors. Spoiler. You deserve it. Hey! I played really badly everybody, but I lasted. We're going to link the video to that game when it becomes available over on RHAP. Our guest today is sitting on the surface of the sun. So we don't want any comments about her audio.

[00:01:19] She has to have a fan or there will be no guests. So, so put up with it. Our guest today is Mel Barrett from Something Soft Pod and the In-Between. Hey Mel. Hey Dees, how are you? Very good. Good. Very jet lagged, very tired, but excited nonetheless. We really had a great time in Milwaukee like we had previously stated. But it was, it was an amazing time.

[00:01:47] I'm so sorry I couldn't make it to Chicago. I was really hoping it was going to work out, but... This time next year. This time next year. Yeah. We're all going to get together somewhere in the United, those United States. I'm not there anymore. Yeah. We also, we also welcome our supporters and members on Buy Me A Coffee who are watching us live. And a huge welcome to the Something's Off Cluck members who are also joining us live. They get to see us and hear all the

[00:02:13] tangents, flubs and swears that get cut out of the published audio. We had a message from a listener, Rebecca, after our episode on free fall, a reckoning for Boeing. She wrote, My sister died due to military negligence in 1992. Her aircraft crashed because her instructor was not qualified to teach on that aircraft and had her do a maneuver that this aircraft was not meant to do.

[00:02:39] No one was held accountable. Her exo quit after his report on the accident was replaced by one that blamed her. Rebecca, we are so sorry to hear that. Thank you for sharing your story with us. And I think I'll definitely tell my dad, Tony Cox, who was the guest on that episode about your experience to get his thoughts on that as well. Yeah. Mel, Murray's dad, Tony Cox was in the military. Mm. And flew planes. And flew planes.

[00:03:09] So. Melanie messaged us last time Mel was on to say, I mean to be polite. That's a very good start, Melanie, as I've listened to this pod for years. But what's with the repeated use of the word unalive in this episode was incredibly distracting. And I never remember hearing Mari or Sarah say that in years past. We welcome all comments that are in good faith. Mel Barrett is building an incredible community and resource over on YouTube.

[00:03:35] But YouTube is very quick to punish channels that they deem crossing lines. So unalive, you might hear, you might hear grape, you might hear ladolabines. Other words are used in order to keep the channel from being shadowbanned or demonetized. So my guess would be, and Mel can confirm or deny, that you use the language over here because you need to keep in practice not saying dead, rape and lesbian. Yeah. Dead, rape and lesbian. Awesome.

[00:04:05] Yeah, we, I just, I've been covering the case now for four weeks, almost on a daily basis. And it's just sort of in my brain now. Suicide is, is the word that I would normally use or murdering her children. But like you said, YouTube demonetizes us if we use those words. So we have to be very careful. Even our chat, like our chat isn't really allowed to use those words either.

[00:04:32] YouTube has AI models that go through and scan chats and hosts to find out if they're using certain language and then they cut our ads or they cut our money. So I just have gotten so used to saying it now that I don't know any other way. Yeah. But thank you. So Mel Barrett, as we all know, is an incredible human being, just generally, but also what she's referring to is a trauma free coverage of the Lindsay Clancy case.

[00:05:00] And I just want to thank you, Mel, from all of us in doing so you've shouldered an emotional and mental burden on our behalf. And it's, it's, it's huge. We've got you here because we love podcasting with you as always. Would you be able to do a brief update on the Lindsay Clancy case as it stands now? Yes. Yes. Spoiler alert, the Lindsay Clancy case ended in a mistrial today after a lot of drama with the jury.

[00:05:29] The jury deliberated for six days. I think it was, I think it was almost 40 hours. And a couple of days ago, two or three days ago, they came back with their first note for the judge saying we are at an impasse. We cannot agree. The judge gave them a soft instruction to go back, which is what he's supposed to do. Uh, the following day they came back again and said, we're at an impasse. The judge read what's called the Tui Rodriguez or the Allen charge or a dynamite charge, which

[00:05:59] says basically this is your last chance. You guys need to go back and try one more time. And yesterday, uh, the jury for woman who, as I understand it is an older woman, maybe in her sixties, not really sure. Doesn't really matter. But she came out, uh, with a note that said, we are still at an impasse, but here are the details.

[00:06:22] We are 11 to one, 11 in favor of acquitting Lindsay Clancy, one who will not budge and is refusing to follow your instructions on the law of reasonable doubt. So what it sounded like to all of us was basically there was one juror who he, he was actually, and we know it's a, he, so I can say he, we know that now, but he was saying that he was,

[00:06:49] he had doubts about whether she was criminally responsible because that's what they were trying to determine in this trial. Um, but that he couldn't in good conscience vote, not guilty by reason of insanity. So, uh, the defense made a motion to, um, have the juror removed and the judge refused to do it. They've wadiered all of the jurors individually and the judge asked them again, can you follow the

[00:07:15] letter of the law as, as I have told you not how you want it to be, but as I have explained it to you. Uh, and then he instructed them on, uh, the, the laws of reasonable doubt again, and then they sent them home. Um, and they came back today and around lunch, right before lunchtime, they came back with another note and said, we cannot get past this one juror. Um, so the judge twice in open court said,

[00:07:43] okay, well it's a mistrial and we're calling the jury back in while the jury, the dirt, the jury was literally outside of the door when Kevin Reddington stood up and requested, uh, a stay on his decision so that he could go to the, uh, superior judicial court in Massachusetts and ask for them to intervene, uh, to either in investigate or remove this one juror because he was refusing to follow the laws.

[00:08:11] The judge explained it. Um, and the judge gave him an, the judge gave him an hour long stay to get that done. And we were able, we were able to watch that trial or that hearing as well. Um, but at the end of the day, the SJC chose not to intervene. They denied the petition and, uh, the judge declared, uh, declared a mistrial because of one juror who we have named Jerry in my chat.

[00:08:38] Yeah. Thanks for Modo says Jerry can suck it. And absolutely, absolutely right. I mean, it's a case that, that has affected many people, obviously none more than the people who are actually, who it's actually about. I want to play a voice note that I received from someone who actively avoids true crime for her mental health. Uh, and I said to her, why on earth do you know?

[00:09:03] Because she missed me and said, are you following the Lindsay Clancy case? Uh, and I said, what on earth are you doing? And she said, honestly, I couldn't escape it because it is just everywhere. Uh, here are her thoughts. Obviously she's given me permission to play them, but she does ask that I tell all of you listening. She's still trying to work her own thoughts out and finding it so complex. I think the thing for me is that she can't be a free woman. She's a free woman. She can technically go

[00:09:32] have more kids. Like you can't allow that and you can't prevent that any other way. Like she needs to be someone who is in a facility, but in terms of premeditation versus insanity, basically. Um, I think the only like, I mean, the real sympathy that I have is like, she was really trying to get help and it was clearly like conflicting doctors and meds. And she was on this and off that and like

[00:09:58] in hospital and out of hospital. And like, she was trying so hard and seems like, yeah, it just seemed like nothing worked. And hearing the way that people spoke about her as a mother, this wasn't her. Like this was a mental illness in saying that she did kill them. We can't allow people in society who killed people, let alone kids. I don't think she can be a free woman. I think she needs to be in a mental institution. Um, but the thing as well is that there's all these

[00:10:24] women. It's become like this thing, like me too, Lindsay or same Lindsay and all these women identifying with her. And that is the weird take to me because the whole point is that it's not relatable because if it's just that she was overwhelmed or had baby blues or even medicated postpartum depression or postpartum depression that requires medication, that was it. Then she should go to jail because if it's something that many, many mothers feel, let alone most mothers, let alone

[00:10:49] a percentage of mothers, then she's a cold blooded murderer. The whole point is it's not relatable. Like she had a psychosis that is rare and we're judging that psychosis. And if we think that that is particularly rare that she killed her kids, that's why she should be in a mental institute. If she had something that many, many women experience, whether that's just like how difficult motherhood is or whatever, then, then it's not justifiable because then why aren't all those

[00:11:16] women in God forbid doing these horrific things? So yeah, I mean, I do agree that, um, she must wish every day, obviously that the suicide attempt worked. I don't believe, um, that she was faking, I don't believe any of that. Um, I believe it was a mental illness, but I also think that it's fair to say that it's a, if the, if she has that mental illness and it could, you know, it could, um, reappear at any time then, well, not reappear at any time, but it's something that

[00:11:44] has existed within her. Like she can't really be on the streets. It is unfortunate because how much of it was medication based? How much was it her care being mishandled? But unfortunately, the crime is so abhorrent that I think that, yeah, she, she needs to be committed regardless. It's a hard one. You can hear, hear how her mind is bouncing from one, one thing to another. Um, and as, as a, as a very

[00:12:14] new mother herself who, uh, and I'm not naming her, so I can say she had some, uh, some struggles, shall we say. Uh, she, I, I had not thought about that sympathy that other mothers have for Lindsay and identifying with her. And yet it's such an unusual thing. Mel. It is. And I mean, you can, I think that most of my audience would agree with her. Um, we don't

[00:12:38] think, I mean, we, we know that Lindsay needs help. She's not going to get the help she needs in a prison. Um, she's already in a prison of her own body and mind. And she, and, and I think she even knows that she needs to stay in Tewkesbury, which is where she is. Um, or wherever she, I don't know where she would go if she was found not guilty by reason of insanity in Massachusetts.

[00:13:02] It's by, uh, criminal responsibility, not reason of insanity. Um, I don't think there's any world where a jury or anybody else would say not guilty, flat out, not guilty in this case. So the judge, one of the things the judge did, and there were a couple of things that happened in the trial that made me question. Now that we know there's been, there's one juror, we're going to call him Jerry again. We, now that we know that Jerry is sticking to his guns, but not following

[00:13:31] the law, there are a couple of reasons why he could be doing that. A it's because the prosecutors brought religion into this, but with the mortal sin comments that they, you know, when they asked Patrick Clancy's mother, if she knew as a Catholic, that murder is a mortal sin, that should have been mistrial right there. It happened a second time with an, uh, with one of their experts, Kevin Reddington asked for a mistrial right then. And then when the judge was giving his instructions to the jury,

[00:13:59] he basically reassured them that this woman isn't going to be out on the streets. She's going to have to go to a mental health facility. Juries don't often know how someone is going to be sentenced or where they're going to be housed because it, it would affect their decision-making. So, and then the third, so in my opinion, this guy, you know, the juror either has a religious belief or he doesn't

[00:14:22] fair if she doesn't go to prison or he's just some sort of like red pill incel who hates women and doesn't believe in postpartum the same way, you know, Dr. Mack, the, the expert for the Commonwealth is. So I can, I can understand the fear and not wanting her to be on the street. I can, I get that completely. This woman is, is paralyzed in a wheelchair for the rest of her life and living

[00:14:48] in a prison of her mind and body. And she agrees she needs the help. And so she would not in any, under any circumstances be free. Um, you know, we can, we've referenced throughout this entire case, the Andrea Yates case, um, who was convicted of something very similar. And then her conviction was overturned because they had an expert witness who crossed over into this trial, which was very

[00:15:15] interesting. Um, basically lie about a law and order episode. I mean, that's a, it's a complicated story, but you know, it happened when that happened. Uh, they, they overturned her conviction and they put her in and she was convicted with, with the insanity defense. Andrea Yates has chosen not to leave that mental health facility. She's been given the opportunity to, but she's chosen not to.

[00:15:41] I think Lindsay would very much be in a similar situation. I think all of her family and friends know that she should be in a facility that can monitor her and take care of her to this day. Three years later, she is still on one-to-one suicide watch. So anyway, I understand your listener and, and what they're saying. I hear it a lot. Um, it's, it's a complicated case and it involves

[00:16:08] women's health, mother's health, um, our justice system, our medical system, our insurance system, our prescribing system. And it's, you know, it's a huge case, which is why I covered it. And that's why I covered it in a trauma-free way, because I knew there were going to be people out there who couldn't watch it. If they were, if they were hearing the testimony about the horrific things that happened to these children, which the prosecutors made sure to detail graphically.

[00:16:37] I mean, this jury itself is probably traumatized and probably needs help just from having to sit through four weeks of this testimony. So I knew there were going to be people out there who couldn't hear that, which is why we covered it the way that we did. So I understand. I understand all of everything that your listener said. So, um, Mel, with this mistrial, do you think we're going to get

[00:16:59] a retrial here? Yes. Oh my, you don't, so you don't think the prosecution will, oh my God. The DA came out to the microphone. He came out to the podium, basically. He was the first one to the microphone and he was congratulating himself. They wanted a mistrial. How often do you see prosecutors who want a mistrial? They were fighting hard for the mistrial. He came out to the microphone and

[00:17:27] took a victory lap, which was really strange and was like, you know, well, we haven't made a decision yet about whether we're going to retry her. But then everything he said after that was like, we're here to fight, you know, for the kids and blah, blah, blah. He re-traumatized everybody by talking about the kids and what happened to the kids over and over again. I really, really, really believe, um, not just because it's the Commonwealth of Massachusetts and they are want to do this,

[00:17:51] but I really believe that they are in some way going to retry her. And part of the issue that happened today and the reason why Kevin Reddington was asking for a stay and asking for the SJC to get involved is because the judge was also refusing to pull the jury. Um, and the judge could have easily, this is the same thing that happened in Karen Reed one, judge Bev Canoni refused to pull the jury.

[00:18:17] If she had pulled the jury, she would have found that they were unanimous in their decision to acquit Karen Reed of murder one and the, the, the, uh, the second highest charge, which means they can't retry her on those charges, but because she didn't pull the jury, they were able to retry her when the jury was actually unanimous for acquittal. So the same issue here, had the judge pulled the jury, he would have

[00:18:44] found that, and he knew it, we all knew it, but he would have found that 11 jurors were wanting to acquit her. And one was the holdout because that's not on the record. Then the Commonwealth can say, well, we don't really know, but they do. It's just not on the record. So I do think they're going to retry her. Kevin Reddington was like, let's do it next week. And they were like, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. So, um, he has five days and well, he's like, I'm ready to go. If you're going to retry this,

[00:19:13] let's do it. You know, they get to the prosecution now gets to see all the mistakes they made. They've seen the entire case that Shreddington has brought and sit down with whoever their counsel or experts or whatever. When he says this, do this. When he says this, do this. Don't say that because he, that's how he got this in. It seems stupendously unfair. Well, the whole thing is

[00:19:37] incredible, but that the, that the prosecution gets to redo it and do it better knowing exactly what Reddington has in his arsenal and he can't do better. He did brilliantly. So. Right. And they'll, well, he, I think he can do a little bit better. He made some mistakes, but you know, they were, they were minor compared to what the Commonwealth was doing. But the other problem is, is they're going to drag this out probably for a year,

[00:20:02] the same way they did with Karen Reed. And that means Lindsay's got to figure out a way to pay for the legal services of Kevin Reddington. Um, the taxpayers are going to pay for this again. Uh, and the, and I'm, I mean, I'm obviously, this is all conjecture that they're going to retry it, but it, it, I have the feeling and you know what I mean? We all, we don't trust the Commonwealth anymore. They tried Sean Ellis three times. They tried Karen Reed twice when she had been acquitted

[00:20:30] on the top charges. And now we have an 11 to one jury to acquit and they're probably going to retry her again. It doesn't seem right or fair. Kevin Reddington has five days to file. Um, basically I don't, I don't know the legal terminology for it, but he can basically say, I don't, I don't agree with the decisions you just made and he has five days to file that and he's going to, um, but can you

[00:20:54] imagine, I keep saying this cause I can't get past it. Imagine being that woman sitting in the chair as a defendant on trial for murdering your own children. And you know that the, it's on, it's the Commonwealth's burden to prove their case. And you have 11 of 12 jurors siding with you and you lose. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And to me, it sounds like who the, that County, that Commonwealth or whatever,

[00:21:23] they need to vote that, um, that DA out. Well, it's yeah, it's, it's Plymouth County, which is separate from, um, Norfolk County, which is where the Karen Reed trial happened. And they just, okay. They just voted out. So Michael Morrissey chose not to run again. He was in Norfolk County and they have a, they just had the election on Tuesday and there's going to be a new DA. Her name is Juna Perkins. She's not the pick that we all wanted, but she's like sort of a middle of the

[00:21:50] road kind of character. But this guy, um, this guy has been there for a long time. His name is Tim Cruz and he's not going anywhere. I don't, I, as a taxpayer, I don't, I don't understand why I would be voting for somebody who was basically wasting my, my taxes. That sounds like a complete waste to me, but Massachusetts is a, a blue, uh, strongly held blue Commonwealth. And unfortunately they've been

[00:22:17] a one party state for decades. And when you have a one party state, even though I identify closer to the politics of blue, you, you don't have any, um, there's no reckoning. There's no accountability because you were just upheld by your party at every turn. You can do whatever you want, which is why Michael Morrissey, the DA in Norfolk County was able to come out and make the video

[00:22:42] before Karen Reed's trial saying, you know, these people never went in the house. These people are innocent before the trial happened. I mean, it's, you can't do that, you know, but he's not going to get into any kind of trouble for it because there's one party. Thank you so much, Mel, for your thoughts and acknowledging how complex this has been. Last week we watched Monsters of God with Mary Payne Gilbert from Pink Shade Podcast. Sarah, what did we watch this week?

[00:23:09] This week we watched Death of the Pastor's Wife on Netflix. This three-part series was directed by Michael Gasparro and Julia Willoughby-Nason. They co-directed American Murder, Gabby Petito, and Myrtle Murders, A Southern Scandal. So they're very fond of a colon in the middle of their titles. But Nason has also directed Shiny Happy People, Lula Rich, The Pharmacist, Fire Fraud,

[00:23:35] and Rest in Power, the Trayvon Martin story. So I didn't realize I was already a fan of hers without clocking. She directed so many good docuseries. Mari, are any of those on your list? I spent a while since I saw Rest in Power. Shiny Happy People was good. We watched that. I think we briefly talked about Lula Rich. So that's, yeah. Was Fire Fraud, was that the one on Netflix or Hulu? Because I have a preference. Oh, I'll find out and put it in the show notes.

[00:24:07] I like Hulu's version. That was my favorite. I like them both. I think they're both great watches, but something about Hulu's version is really great. If I had to guess, I think it's Hulu's, but I'll let the people know. Yeah, yeah. So let's get to our main topic. Before we start, we'd like to let you know that the film and our discussion deal in part with sexual assault, domestic violence, and suicide. If that's not for you today, hop off and we will see you next time.

[00:24:35] We will link some resources for the US and Australia in the show notes. So to the crime. In April 2024, Micah Miller was found dead of a gunshot wound in Lumber River State Park in North Carolina, just two days after serving her husband with divorce papers. She was 30 years old. When she was 13, she first met J.P. Miller, who was the pastor of the church she attended and

[00:25:00] would become her husband. He was 28. So that's 15 years. If you don't want to do math in your head, 15 years. They began an affair while both were married to other people. The affair became a scandal at the church. So they divorced their spouses and married each other in 2017. Making the sin right is something that Micah apparently said. Federal prosecutors allege that between approximately November 2022 and Micah's death, J.P. Miller engaged in a prolonged campaign

[00:25:29] of unwanted and harassing behavior against his wife. And more than a year after she died, they charged him with cyber-stalking her and lying to investigators. J.P. Miller pled not guilty. He has not been charged with killing Micah or causing her death, which remains officially classified as a suicide. Mel, I'll start with you. What were your overall thoughts on the docu-series?

[00:25:54] My overall thoughts about the docu-series? I thought it was pretty good. I know that they left a lot out. I've been following and covering the case for a long time. I haven't gone as deep as a lot of other people have gone. I know Ellen Marsh has gone very deep on this case. It's one of her white whales, I think. But I really enjoyed the documentary. I thought it was well done.

[00:26:24] I wish that they had gotten into a little bit more detail about what really happened. And I do have some notes that we can go over of the stuff that they'd left out of the documentary, because some of it's really important. A lot of it has to do with the coercive control. There is a debate, I think, about whether... This is a little bit nuanced, but I think there's a pretty big debate about whether

[00:26:47] Micah Miller was actually bipolar or if he caused her to have some sort of a mental illness that then he, you know, it was involuntarily... He involuntarily committed her and they put her on lithium and a bunch of other drugs. And did that make her appear bipolar? I'm not really sure. Rebecca doesn't think that... Rebecca thinks she was bipolar from when she was younger. My opinion is different. I think he forced

[00:27:15] the mental disease or defect by what she was... She was living in hell every single day of her life with him. And the documentary, I was impressed with the fact that they went into, for instance, the testosterone, which was mind-blowing to me. That's actually something that I didn't know until I saw the documentary. But I know that there were a lot of other things that he did,

[00:27:41] including confessing to this behavior in a letter, which they didn't cover. And I don't know why they didn't cover that. But overall, I enjoyed it. I watched all three episodes in one day. I watched it with my partner, Lindsay, who didn't know anything about the case. And she was just like... Her eyes were like this wide the whole time she was watching.

[00:28:05] So I think that for a good Cliff Notes version of this story, Netflix did a pretty good job. And I do love the filmmakers. I love their work. So yeah, I thought it was pretty good. I think it's a good starting place if you don't know much about this case. Yeah. Mary, how about you? What are your overall thoughts? A three-parter being Cliff Notes, that's kind of crazy work. I enjoyed it. I will say,

[00:28:30] on the case of her mental illness, I could definitely see her not being bipolar and somebody forcing that diagnosis on it. I think what people tend to forget, and maybe this is something that also pertains to the Lindsay Clancy trial as well, but antidepressants, antipsychotic drugs, again, one of the side effects is suicidal thoughts and ideation.

[00:28:55] And hallucinations and command hallucinations. And yes, all of that stuff. All of that. So the medicine that is supposed to be helping with these things could quite often cause those things, especially in those who don't need them. So I agree, no matter what

[00:29:19] the ruling is, Michael was tortured to death, most likely. The fact that, again, she's taking these, she is taking these meds. Sometimes they said he was withholding the meds. So that's, we all know that's bad. Taking meds, withholding the meds, all of that. If you're going to force somebody on the meds, they need to stay on the meds. And then taking them off is horrible. And then add in the

[00:29:45] testosterone, which is another hormone that then again, messes with your, with your emotions, messes with her, messing with her body to the point where it's taken away like the one thing that she loves. Then him, if she doesn't have sex with him before he goes to sleep or whatever he wants it, he's flashing the lights on. He's, he's keeping her awake. He's like forcing her, he's mentally and physically exhausting her until she says, okay, fine.

[00:30:12] I mean, listen, he, he's, I'm a lesbian. So it's like, yeah, I'm a lesbian. And even I don't want to have sex three to four times a day. I mean, like, what are we doing here? That's too much. That is just too much. Like, what, what else are you doing during the day? Because it can't, it can't be getting up and preaching to the preaching to his congregation that if your wife isn't giving you what you want, you have 600 options, men. Like that was how many sermons did they show

[00:30:37] where he's telling the men, listen, if you're, if your wife isn't giving you what you want, ladies, your, your husband's going to cheat on you. That's just the way it is. That's what God intended. So I will say, I was thinking that too. I was like, man, this man really loved talking about cheating and adultery and blaming the women. But then I think I went back and I realized a lot of those clips were, he had like the same suit on. So I think it was just like an extended sermon that

[00:31:06] they then like clipped and chopped up. But there were some times that he was in different outfits when he was talking about the, like the less graphic portions of that. I think the really graphic portions where he, where he was talking about, like, you know, you have to give it up. I think those came from one long sermon, but then there's a lot of context clues from other sermons because remember, I think they said it in this documentary. Cause after I watched this documentary, I then of

[00:31:34] course went and watched 80 other million things about this case. Um, but he had over like 500 or so recorded sermons on his site. And so like, like the, the context is all there, you know? And I think this documentary does a pretty good job of showing, showing them, but I've seen even more stuff other

[00:31:57] places. Um, I, I did like the layout of this documentary. Um, I felt the case was compelling. We've seen more interesting cases kind of, you know, like this was another one where there were some people like, Oh, did y'all check on the pastor's wife? Oh my gosh, that man is crazy. And I was like, oh my God, it was like, I don't know. I, I guess just coming off of like a toxic love story.

[00:32:22] Like, I think I'm getting desensitized to this stuff because it's like these men suck. They freaking suck. I'm not surprised that, that a Jesus-y cult pastor is torturing his wife. Yes. This, this makes all of the sense in the world to me. And, um, I, and again, that just scientific brain of mine, as much as I would love to be like, I think he did this. I think this was this, this was a setup.

[00:32:50] Half of me wants to be like, where was Mark? Where was his alibi? That's my hand. Where's his right hand man? What's his alibi? Half of me wants to say that the other half of me is, is, you know, uh, was it Murphy's law or whatever? Like the easiest Occam's razor. Yeah. The easiest solution is more than likely the solution more than likely she did commit suicide. And again, even if she did,

[00:33:17] it was kind of cheesy. They said in the documentary murder by suicide, that was kind of cheesy to me, but you cannot take away that if she did, he definitely drove her to it. Like hands down. Like, I feel like I could say that beyond a reasonable doubt, the stuff that has been documented that she is documented that, um, we've seen her talk about in her journals. We've seen her talk about on those videos on Facebook, the stuff that she said that she's went through.

[00:33:42] And also with, uh, the fact of the stuff that his ex-wife said in an affidavit, which wasn't included in this documentary leads me to believe that this man is a horrible human being to be around. So yes, he pushed her. So no matter what, to me, he is liable for her death and I can't see her family not being able to find him civilly liable. All that said, I found the docu-series. I thought,

[00:34:08] I found it engaging. I found it, uh, engrossing. I wonder if Myka was as centered as I feel like she could be, could be. Production was spot on, perfect. Storytelling, spot on, perfect. Um, so no notes about that. It was just kind of like, I don't know if maybe my expectations were a little too high because of so many people telling me I had to watch it. Yeah. Sarah, what about you? What

[00:34:32] were your thoughts? Well, we gave ourselves August off horrible murders. We did big chicken talking about, you know, all the, all the terrible illegality in the chicken industry and then monsters of God, which we absolutely loved is about reptiles smuggling and drugs. I'm sure people died, but that wasn't the center of the story. And we've really come back with this just

[00:34:59] horrible. I mean, I don't know why I'm saying it's horrible. Obviously it's, it's horrible. Uh, I just to step back and talk about it as a property. I thought three episodes, I wondered through episode one, I wasn't, I was thinking it was going very well, but I wondered how it was going to be three episodes. I think it justifies the three episode length. They're around 42 to 45 minutes each. We always say you can cut something, but then if you ask me what, I couldn't tell you.

[00:35:26] I adored the sisters and the brother. I thought their inclusion was the master stroke of this docu-series. I, weirdly with so much Micah material, I did find her elusive, but maybe it's because she was elusive. She'd been groomed since she was 13. I am no friend to religion. I'm atheist. And now I want a documentary on a nice youth pastor, please, because find me one, you know, name one.

[00:35:55] Uh, and I think that the, one of the powerful things about the docu-series that they didn't hammer onto, but was the religiosity of the congregation and how hard it would be to stand up against the pastor who is daddy, who is the next thing to God, who talks to Jesus, who talks through Jesus. Uh, how hard it would be to be one voice against that. And if that's your whole

[00:36:22] identity as a child, she said she wanted to be a pastor's wife. I don't know why she didn't want to be a pastor, but that's a whole other story. Gloria Steinem would tell us why. Uh, so yeah, so I'm talking about her, her elusiveness, uh, as a victim, a lot of people talking about her and we do get some of the videos of her, but the videos of her, her, uh, public presentation to the church. Yeah. So the one time I really felt like I saw her was there is a wedding video of her

[00:36:52] marrying JP and she is the scaredest, saddest bride I have ever seen. So that to me was very, was very powerful, but I, I, I didn't know a lot about the case I have to say. So I, I felt like I got a lot about the case, but I would be very interested to know what, what, uh, outside information you have. Um, well, there's quite a bit. Um, so I, the first thing I want to

[00:37:19] ask you guys is, uh, who was your favorite character in the series? I personally liked Caroline Korn. She felt like she was like not for it. I like how she said, I came in, I met Mike, uh, I thought they were great. And it was like the minute she saw some of those red flags, she was like, Oh, I'm out. And she was out. Exactly. I really liked her. What about you, Sarah? Regina Ward. Come on. Amazing. So I, the reason I had a reason to ask

[00:37:46] for asking you guys, cause I knew one of you would say Regina Ward, uh, Regina Ward's coming on the show on Monday. Amazing. And I, I'm fangirling. So Regina Ward, Regina Ward is Micah Miller's attorney. She appears in the documentary, this heroine, this frigging badass, um, played a recorded conversation or yeah, recorded conversation with JP Miller after Micah died. And he was

[00:38:15] trying to get the records and she was like, you're lying. Like she called him out right on the phone. She also, and this is the reason why we're able to see all of his sermons. She's the one who went in and downloaded every sermon that he had posted on the website so that she could analyze them and like cut them up and figure out what he was doing and what his MO was. She was,

[00:38:41] I, she was my favorite character in the documentary. I, and so as soon as it was over, I've been like, Oh my God, I love Regina Ward. I would love to talk to her. And a couple of people in our audience were like, well, she just started a YouTube channel. She's got, you know, it's like, she's got like three or 4,000 subscribers or something like that. And they said she was doing, you know, other shows. And so I just emailed her. She got back to me the same day and she's coming on on

[00:39:05] Monday and I'm so excited. I'm going to fangirl all over her. I know I am. Yes. I will be fangirling by proxy, but I mean, here's one, this is like a brief snapshot of how good these filmmakers are. The audio of her conversation with him and her calling her out because he says, he starts off by saying, I believe you blah, blah, blah. And she says, no, you don't believe it. You know it.

[00:39:29] So right from the start, she puts him on notice. So we have this fantastic conversation, which if we didn't know the players, we'd be cheering anyway, because he's a badass woman, not letting a man manipulate her, but because we know exactly who he is, or we, we think we know exactly who he is, but they play the audio, not over a video of turning, you know, cassette tape, which nobody does anymore. But over video of Regina Ward listening to the conversation as,

[00:39:58] as, as she recorded it. And I thought, oh, like this is wonderful, wonderful storytelling. And it's not showy for the sake of being showy. It's part of the storytelling of these two directors. Yeah. I, I really thought I was like, is she, is she recording that right now? It took me like a good second to realize. I was like, oh, she's not talking. She is. She kept, she got all the receipts. She has all the receipts, all of them. Yeah.

[00:40:23] My second favorite character in the documentary series was, uh, JP Miller's fake ass screaming cry. Oh my God. I was on, which he did on the phone. I was on moisture watch and it was a little moment where he did have moisture. He cries many times throughout the documentary, but the only time he had a little moisture, he'd been digging his fingers into his eyes. Into his eyes. Yeah. How about when he's laying face down in the grass after he, after he cheated on Micah,

[00:40:54] screaming, crying. And then he did it on the phone again with Regina. He started doing the fake cry on the phone and it was, it was just like, heening. Yeah. Oh God, it was so bad. I was like, you fake ass, asshole, abusive. Uh, anyway. And the, and the weird like cry laugh at her funeral when he was like, and, and, and the

[00:41:18] weird ickiness at, um, uh, Skinner, uh, Susie, Susie's husband's funeral. That's a whole other. That was disgusting. He's like, this is exciting. This is exciting. What? First off, this is weird. Yeah. This is ableist because he said, this is exciting because now his soul is in heaven and he's no longer bound. He's no longer in a wheelchair. I was like, oh, bro. Yikes. On bikes.

[00:41:43] Like, um, I good on Regina Ward for it. Like if she downloaded those sermons and they had to listen to them. My God. I, every, every clip that they did, I was like, I can't take any more. I can't take any more of this. I can't take any more of this. And then when I did like my extra side Googings and listening to it and to find out that he has a tick tock, he had a tick tock. He was on tick tock doing the same thing. Just talking, talking, yapping,

[00:42:11] yapping. I was like this man, I don't, I don't diagnose people at all, but the narcissism is just jumping all up and through this mug, man. Um, the question I would have for him if I had him in front of me is how can you sit up there and preach about Christianity and religion when you are, um, paying an unhoused

[00:42:33] person to, uh, have sex with your wife or ejaculate or do whatever to finish. I mean, what the, what are we doing? Like, and, and then, you know, then you have the, the cultish kind of church following at, um, solid rock and they're just treating what's going on in their home and what they're hearing is like, Oh, it's just gossip. It's just gossip that he cheated after he's done

[00:43:02] it three times already. And his dad who probably taught him how to play the game is doing the same thing. I love that his dad had like some sort of a, a, a gay mark on his record. And I'm just like, what these guys, this is no longer. I, I, and I, and I have to say, I really appreciated the character. Oh God, what was her name? The other, the pasta. I was just thinking about her. I really appreciated

[00:43:30] Pam, but I was also really pissed off at Pam because she had this idea about this kid meeting JP about how he was the real deal and all this shit. And it's like, okay, but after the first affair, when he had an affair with Micah, who was a 13 year old kid when he met her and just a few years later when she's in her early twenties, he's having it or no, actually not even in early twenties. Yeah. 21. And he's having her to Jeremy. I mean, we lose Jeremy almost immediately. Poor Jeremy.

[00:43:59] I know. And poor Jeremy. But for, for Pam to see those things happen and not have like a little bit of a, Hmm, I need to like reserve some judgment here. I think he's this superstar, you know, pastor kid, but this is not how he should be acting. And it took her, you know, dealing, like seeing him with Skinner to start to realize that something was off and to get, you know, I forget how, how it happened,

[00:44:28] but she got a phone call. She got something happened. And I'm like, this is why they're allowed. This is why they're able to perpetuate the problem in this church because good people like Pam who should know better and who should see the signs. Cause she's been doing this for a long enough time, either chose to ignore it or excused it away because he's, you know, a godly man and a pastor. I just don't know. There was, she was failed. Micah was failed by so many people who should have

[00:44:56] loved her and had her back. And I wish the documentary had, instead of like making Pam into some sort of a, a hero figure, I wish they'd shown a little bit more or had that conversation a little bit more. But you got to remember, Pam did go to the church elders. Yep. She did, but it took her a long time. It took her a long time, but she went to the church elders. And what did the church

[00:45:21] elders say? We don't care. We don't care. It's just gossip. That's exactly what they said. Well, because the people were flooding, they were flooding to the worship services. They were raising their hands and presumably raising money. And giving their money. Exactly. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So, um, this is, this whole case has just been, I don't know, man. Like I don't, the fact that JP

[00:45:49] likes this type of attention, that's what kind of, that's what kind of is making me kind of icky all around about this. Because again, I, I don't know how much of this was about Micah, even down to the title, death of a pastor's wife. We're still reducing Micah to the pastor's wife. Like that was my only real problem with this. Um, I do get that we're following Micah's steps and especially the first part,

[00:46:17] we're hearing about her worship, how she likes to worship, how she meets Jeremy, all of that. They don't even really get into the real like salacious stuff with her and JP. Cause they kind of make it seem like that Allie, JP's first wife finds out that they were together through like a text message. But I heard she caught them in filgrante, in fuego, in the bed. Yeah. I don't know.

[00:46:43] Doing it. That's what you mean? Yeah. Doing it. Yes. I heard she caught them straight up. Finishing on each other. Doing it and doing it not well. Four times. Whether she wanted to or not. Yeah. And you know what? I was thinking, I was wondering if that four times a day thing is because of the whole like super religious, like thou shall not spill seed. So he's not taking care of

[00:47:07] himself. So he, he needs having private gentleman's time. Yes. But then why would he be paying people to have sex with her and denigrate her and the degradation of it all? And, and for it to be like, Oh, it's okay because it's still within our marriage bed type thing. It was in a, in an alleyway when they pulled away from a restaurant and he pulled up in the truck and asked someone to do it. I mean, but the other thing is, is that the other thing that I wonder

[00:47:36] about, and I'm not saying the documentary should have covered this, but how did Micah get to a place where she accepted that this might be part of life? Meaning who taught her that this was okay? Or who taught her that? And it is in my, my understanding is it was probably JP Miller himself because it's the church who's telling, the church is telling young women, Hey, if you don't give it up

[00:48:04] for your man, he's going to go find it somewhere else. So God says, you got to do it. And so that's what she's hearing. And so when her husband is paying someone to finish on her, some random stranger, she's like, well, this is what God wants me to do. I guess. I mean, one thing that came through very clearly was she'd already had one failed marriage. Yes. Cause

[00:48:30] she had an affair with JP and she could in her mind, I'm sorry, in her mind, a failed marriage or one divorce. And she could not conceive of herself having two divorces. And they spoke briefly about her mother. The whole family said, Oh, she didn't want to be like our mother. Their mother, a divorced, a divorced woman bringing up five children by herself. What a hero. But there was something in my case, it might've been the age at which that divorce happened. Um, because you know,

[00:48:56] it hits you differently at different ages. I heard her mom had seven divorces. Is that? Oh shit. Uh, I don't know. I don't know. Damn. That's what I heard. Well, in that case, maybe marriage shouldn't be in the cards. Maybe you just hold off. I, I, I firmly believe. Well, I was going to say, Rebecca and I talk about this all the time. I firmly believe that people shouldn't get married until they're in their forties. Yeah. Yeah. 18 is entirely too,

[00:49:26] too young. You don't know anything. You're a baby. You don't know anything. Well, the thing, look, but the thing is in, in a religious or a puritanical society or cult or community, if you're not allowed to have sex till you get married, of course you want to get married because you want to have sex. Why not? Uh, so I understand it from that point of view. So stop being Puritan people. Yeah. Stop being ridiculous. Bottom line. Ridiculous. Uh, so in South Carolina,

[00:49:52] this is proposed legislation called Micah's law is aimed at strengthening protections against stalking and coercive control. If passed, it will broaden the legal definition of domestic abuse and make coercive control, a felony carrying a sentence of up to 10 years. So we'll see if that gets passed. Well, and let's not, um, we, the thing that they didn't really hammer home in the

[00:50:17] documentary is that because Micah and JP were separated and she was seeking divorce when she went to go get a restraining order against him, she wasn't allowed to get a restraining order because in South Carolina, if you're married still, then you basically, um, don't deserve a restraining order. Oh, you belong to him. You belong to him. So she couldn't even get a restraining order against this guy, even though she had proof. So one of the things that they didn't talk about

[00:50:46] was the apology letter. Um, so, you know, we know that he was harassing her. We heard, you know, him talking or them talking about him, you know, razor blades on her car, electronic tracking. He actually acknowledged all of those things in a letter, um, an apology letter. Um, he admitted to putting the razor blades in her car tires, electronically tracking her car and posting the,

[00:51:13] the Facebook, the naked photo of her on Facebook. Um, and one of the other things that he, that they didn't really dive into was, you know, the interview that he did with, um, who was it? Was it Newsweek? Newsweek or Newsmax. Newsmax? Newsmax. It was some News Nation. News Nation. It was some right wing. Yeah. Um, so he confirmed that the letter, that that letter was genuine. They actually

[00:51:41] confronted him with it. Um, but he was trying to excuse it away and, and saying that Micah had refused her psychiatric medication unless he paid her $10,000 and wrote, and that's when he wrote the confession letter because she, she wanted him to write a confession letter and pay her $10,000. Um, right. So when he, and so when the interviewer asked him if he outright, if he abused her, he denied it,

[00:52:09] but he said he wrote that letter because she was forcing him to, because she, in order to take her medication basically. Um, and then there's the whole, there's, it's a gray area about the forced involuntary commitment and the doctors and who JP knew there and how, you know, was he forcing her to take medication? Was he holding medication back? What, you know, the, the steroids being injected,

[00:52:35] which is just disgusting in my opinion. Um, you know, in, there were sworn court filings in April 20, uh, when was it? 2024, uh, that were part of the divorce proceedings where Micah actually detailed like this sustained pattern of abuse, emotional, sexual, spiritual, financial, physical. And, you know, there was so much more that they just couldn't cover, I think, in the documentary,

[00:53:03] as well as JP Miller's past criminal and abuse record. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. He had a previous conviction for, uh, a high and aggravated, um, car accident where he struck a woman with his truck driving, driving roughly a hundred yards without, with her clinging to the hood of his car.

[00:53:25] Ugh. How revolting. Yeah. And, and he was charged with something when he was like 19 for sleeping with a 14 year old or something. Yep. There were other historic, there were other sexual assault allegations, including minors from the church and the school. Happy hunting ground, the church, right? You go to a target rich environment and there you go. Yep. I think that, I think that, uh, I, I like if, if,

[00:53:52] if the documentary or docu-series is good and leave stuff out, it must leave stuff out. It can't, no documentary can tell you everything. I think then it driving you to go and read more is a pleasurable thing. If it's bad and not good and doesn't nourish or give you the story, then it's bad that it drives you to look, look at more things. So I think that as we talk about things that weren't covered in the documentary, I think we're not saying it's a bad documentary. We're

[00:54:19] saying it gives you a really good grounding. It must select as any document of any kind is always edited, is always selected. Uh, but I, I think let's find out what we thought about it as a rating. Mel, how many magnifying glasses are you going to rate Death of the Pastor's Wife out of a possible five? Um, I'm going to go with four, I think. I thought it was good. There was some stuff that

[00:54:43] was left out. I could have, um, I would, I would have appreciated them focusing a little bit more on Micah and her life and struggles. Um, but overall I thought it was a good three act structure, three episode series, um, where they introduced, introduced us to Micah and her family and then, you know, took us through what we knew of the marriage. And then the third part of the third act

[00:55:09] was that whole marriage breaking down and what was really going on behind the scenes and, and Micah's untimely, uh, death. And so, yeah, I'd say four, I think four. And what about you, Mari? How many magnifying glasses are you going to rate this docu-series? Mel, Mel took the rating right out of my mouth. I was, I was kind of struggling between a 3.5 and a four, but I think I will go to a four. Just the simple fact that religious people take so much video,

[00:55:37] man. Just so much video to be used against them later, you know? So I, I did like the glimpses of Micah in those church videos. I know that's a facade that she's putting on for a congregation, but it still is a glimpse of her. And maybe it was just the shady editing too, where they would like show Micah like side-eyeing Susie or, uh, you know, and lots of footage of Susie. We didn't even

[00:56:07] talk about Susie's husband's suicide and all of that. Or her eyebrows. Unacceptable eyebrows. Both mad weird. Like, uh, like, I can't believe like this, this congregation is like, oh yeah, our pastor keeps cheating on his wife, but it's okay because he's marrying the women he cheated with. Like, right. Where does that say that in the Bible or the 10 commandments? Like, yeah, you have adultery as long as you, you know, try and get right.

[00:56:36] JP was, JP was telling them, you know, if I'm not getting what I need at home, 600 options are going to appear before me and I can just choose whatever I want. Yeah. Just a, so, so ridiculous. So. Oh, Ramoto. I, we've been reading the chat, but not calling it out. Test drive your next wife. Oh no. Oh no, no, no, no.

[00:57:00] Oh Lord. Yes. That's great. Um, uh, uh, uh, Beth says, what if his death wasn't a suicide? Again, I mean, they didn't go into it. Nobody really goes into it. He was in a wheelchair. He was in a wheelchair found at the bottom of a, of a pool of a community pool. They don't say anything about where Susie was whereabouts at, where at that time. They do say that he was alone. I don't know. They have to have, I don't know. I don't know.

[00:57:28] But if, if that he is, um, he, he was paralyzed from the shoulders down. So it actually did make sense to me that if he were to commit suicide, then that would be the way he would do it. Cause you'd have no ability to save yourself. You have no. Yeah, exactly. Um, just however, it's just all very fishy that they like, Oh, now Susie and JP can both get married

[00:57:54] because both of their former partners have died by suicide. So I, yeah, it, it, it does. It had a lot of questions. Like Sarah said, even though they, they kept some things out. Um, it's fine. You know, it's fine. I think again, for watchability for engaging content,

[00:58:15] I think that's why I pushed it to a four instead of a 3.5. Um, like I said, for me, it did, it did kind of feel like, um, Sarah kind of knows that like, I'm, I don't really care about cases where it seems like the internet is trying to make this case bigger than it is.

[00:58:34] I think Micah's story is sad. I think JP is a freaking nutbird that deserves to be in jail. At least he's, he's being charged with federal harassment laws and cyber stalking laws. Um, but unfortunately I, I do err on the side that her death was a suicide. And again, just because her death was a suicide doesn't mean he wasn't responsible for it.

[00:58:59] I, again, full heartedly believe wholeheartedly believe that he, it was his fault no matter what, like he is the responsible party. Even if he might not have pulled the trigger himself. Um, but I get it. Like when you have stuff like there's two spent shell casings and one unspent shell casing near her body, but there's only one, you know, only one bullet hole. Um, And the gun was a hundred feet away from her.

[00:59:28] No, the casings were a hundred feet away from her. I think the gun was far away from her too. Let me see. Let me check. Go ahead. Yeah. I know for a fact, the casings were a hundred feet away from her and they said it didn't make sense because the river, they don't think the river could have carried her body that far away in the time that, um, right in the time that they, they, uh, whatchamacallit. So yeah, it's, it's all really, really weird. Yeah. Micah, Micah's body was found submerged in the lumber river,

[00:59:56] approximately a hundred feet away from the six hour nine millimeter handgun and shell casings and shell casings. Yeah. Yeah. It's not a good look. I don't know. I, it just seems like, where was Mark? That's what I'm saying. I, I, I don't think JP Miller literally pulled the trigger and did this. He had an alibi. Um, but we don't know where Mark was. And all of a sudden Mark, Mark has decided to sing his first song right after Micah dies. Really?

[01:00:26] That was very, I don't trust that. Yeah. And, and Mark was the guy who was responsible for basically making sure his image was protected after he had affairs every time. Like Mark was the guy who stood up and yeah. Yeah. So I don't know girls for him. Yeah. So yeah. So see, look, there we go. Talking more in the ratings portion. Yeah. So yeah, I gave it a four Sarah. How about you? How many

[01:00:52] magnifying glasses are you going to give death of a pastor's wife? Well, I'm also swinging as is my want. Um, I feel almost four and a half for production, but then I swing down to three and a half because we do lose Micah. I think I'm going to settle on a four. I think if we don't get Micah, as I said, right at the beginning, because we get her sisters and her brother, I feel like I got a lot

[01:01:16] of Micah from that. But of course their view of her is because they love her and they don't want to believe that she completes suicide. Uh, nobody wants to believe that people that they know do that. Uh, they do sadly, heartbreakingly they do. I think the simplest thing is that she did take her own life. I think if you were setting up a suicide, you would make sure that there weren't odd things like

[01:01:44] the distance between the gun and the, and the, and the casings and the body. But I don't know. I tell you who does know God and God doesn't exist. So nobody knows. Uh, so I'm going to give this a four. I'm going to give it a recommend, but I'm also going to say when we give content warnings from time to, we're a true crime review podcast. Everything's a content warning, but this one, you know, if you've jumped forward to the ratings, which some of our people do to see if

[01:02:09] they should, uh, watch it and they're supposed to be spoiler free, but Hey, we're fast and loose today. Um, I think that take the, take our content warning seriously because it is very, very disturbing. And as Mari says, these cults, they take lots and lots of videos so we can actually see her descent from this bright faced young girl to, uh, a, a trapped, uh, older,

[01:02:37] not older, 30, you know, when, when I went back and watched the first episode again, after watching the first three, I was like, Oh my God, I forgot how like young and beautiful and vibrant and bubbly. She looked like before dealing with him. And also after like when she was finally like, you know, separated from him, she started to look healthy and happy and

[01:03:04] like herself again. And that should tell you everything about what she was going through being married to him. Yeah. Yeah. Um, at crime scene, we are eager to hear your feedback and suggestions for future episodes. You can subscribe by going to crime scene pod.com or search crime scene. That's S E E N wherever you get your podcast. You can follow crime scene everywhere at crime scene pod or email us at crime scene pod at gmail.com. You can support us at buy me a coffee.com slash crime scene

[01:03:32] pod. Sling us a couple of bucks or join our monthly membership members receive episodes early and ad free as well as other exclusive bonus content like access to our monthly live, see everything behind the scenes record like today, but the next bonus episode will be the audio of our live episode from Milwaukee. You can also support us by buying our merch. Yes, we have crime scene tumblers available at

[01:03:58] my shop for, for our, uh, watchers in the chat. They can see it. Um, you can go to my shop by going to mauricraftstomuch.bigcartel.com. Uh, while you're there, you can look at, I have other books themed tumblers. Look at that. Yes. I have, I have house of the dragon themed tumblers as well. Lights out.

[01:04:24] No safe word. Yes. Um, uh, and if you don't find anything there, let me know and I'll make something especially just for you. The link to the stories in the show notes. Me and Sarah are also wearing our crime scene merch t-shirts that we, uh, tested and we gave out at Milwaukee. Uh, let us know if you

[01:04:46] guys would be interested in us, um, uh, putting some t-shirts available for merch online. Uh, for our audio listeners, the front of the t-shirt says, what's your true crime origin story? And then the back of the t-shirt has the crime scene logo on it. Yes. At the moment, they're a very exclusive, uh, number. There are 12 altogether in the world

[01:05:12] and we gave them to our, uh, to our attendees at our live show who came up and told us their true crime origin story. Some of which were very moving and harrowing. I thought you were going to tell us about documentaries, but you told us about murders in your hometown. And also personal experiences. Uh, that will all be in the exclusive episode. You can support us for free as well. Well, you don't have to pay us money, although we'd like it, uh, rate and review crime scene so that

[01:05:40] others can find us five stars only five stars. Your support makes a big difference. Five stars. So Mel, what have you got going on? Where can the people find you? Uh, right now I am spending most of my time on the something's off podcast. Um, just because I've been streaming almost every single day for the past four or five weeks over Lindsay Clancy. I'm looking for my next trial. Uh, you can usually catch Rebecca and I on Mondays and Thursdays. That's when we do our

[01:06:09] regular streams. We do, we double it up on Monday. We have a members only cross roast that happens on Monday nights, which is a hell of a good time and you're missing out if you're not there. Um, but yeah, so right now something's off pod on YouTube. I'm still updating my in between podcast, uh, audio feed, but I have not, um, had time to finish the investigative work that I'm working through on season three.

[01:06:36] So I'm still working on that. Hopefully it will be coming out pretty soon. Yep. Something's off pod. Check us out there. Join the, join the chat, subscribe, like comment, do all the things for the algorithm, all of the things. And what about you, Mari? Where can the people find you? You can find me over on blue sky at Mari talks too much. That's two, like the number two currently talking all things, big brother 28 over there. Um, doing a lot of big brother podcasting with R HAP.

[01:07:05] Uh, like we said, we got back from Milwaukee. We had, uh, a great pod friends episode that will be coming out. Um, I think either later this month in September or, um, in October where we talked to the women of R HAP, the women's podcasters. Um, so, uh, yes, Beth, I'm obsessed with BB too. Yes, Beth. Come through. Come, come follow me. Um, I will be, like I said, on R HAP talking all things,

[01:07:33] big brother. Um, also over on recap kickback, we had just finished up our coverage of house of the dragon. We had such a blast covering, uh, season three of house of the dragon. So you can always go back and listen to that. Uh, next up, we just, we just recorded and just dropped our, uh, coverage of the premiere episode of beauty in black Netflix. We've been in for a penny in for a pound, uh, time

[01:08:03] Tyler Perry has me Chappelle and the great Matt Scott covering, uh, beauty in black. Honestly, the show me listening to us talk about the show. Yes. So go to recap kickback.com to subscribe wherever you get your podcast, or you can even better. You can see our faces and, uh, go to youtube.com slash at recap kickback. Right. Um, Sarah, what about you? What do you have going on

[01:08:31] and where can people find you? Uh, people can find me on blue sky at Sarah Karen and if that's something they'd like to do, I'm covering non-English language seasons of the traitors with Annabelle Fiddler over on babes in the conclave. Although how I can face traitors again after being betrayed by my, by my podcast co-host. If you know the traitors, we thought each other was protecting each other, but it turned out we were both faithful. It's just the way it goes.

[01:08:56] Uh, so Annabelle and I have covered Hungary, two seasons of Hungary, one season of Turkey. And we're just about to start, uh, our episode by episode coverage of Denmark civilians season two. These are my people. I have Danish heritage. So of course I don't speak the language, but I understand the mentality. I don't really, but I'm going to pretend on the internet that I do. You don't have to watch the show to enjoy our episodes. Uh, Mari, what are we watching

[01:09:22] next week? Something nice? No murder? Absolutely not. You know, we have to do more murder. Next time on Crime Scene, we're covering Welcome to the Family, the murder of Don Markle on Hulu. Watch it and send us your comments and questions. Thanks to Mel Barrett for joining us. Will from America for the theme music and the lively chat for all of their contributions. Come back again another time. Until next time. Peace. Peace and love.

[01:09:52] Peace. Peace.