Crime Seen | Episode 116: Sasha Reid and the Midnight Order

[00:00:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Hello everyone, I'm Sarah Carradine, podcasting from Aura Sydney.

[00:00:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm Mari Forth.

[00:00:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And this is Crime Seen, the True Crime Review podcast where we get to the heart of how true

[00:00:34] [SPEAKER_01]: crime stories are told.

[00:00:36] [SPEAKER_01]: You can get this fine program along with all the fantastic reality TV content by subscribing

[00:00:41] [SPEAKER_01]: to robhasawebsite.com slash subscribe.

[00:00:44] [SPEAKER_01]: We know reality TV.

[00:00:47] [SPEAKER_02]: We'd love it if you would subscribe to our dedicated feed as well.

[00:00:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Please go to robhasawebsite.com slash crime feed.

[00:00:54] [SPEAKER_02]: We know true crime.

[00:00:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Last week we watched Teen Torture Inc. with Grace Leder.

[00:01:01] [SPEAKER_02]: Our recommendation is watch the program instead.

[00:01:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Sarah, what did we watch this week?

[00:01:08] [SPEAKER_01]: This week we watched Sasha Reid and the Midnight Order on Hulu.

[00:01:13] [SPEAKER_01]: It was directed by Nancy Schwartzman.

[00:01:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Now she directed Victim Suspect, which we covered with Rebecca Lavoie back in Episode

[00:01:20] [SPEAKER_01]: 58.

[00:01:21] [SPEAKER_01]: We all absolutely loved it hard because it's a very difficult subject, but we thought

[00:01:26] [SPEAKER_01]: it was brilliant and we all gave it five magnifying glasses.

[00:01:31] [SPEAKER_01]: She also directed Roll Red Roll in 2018 about a sexual assault in Ohio and the

[00:01:37] [SPEAKER_01]: role that social media played in the crime and the community.

[00:01:43] [SPEAKER_01]: It's just us today Mari, so let's get into this five part docu-series.

[00:01:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Each episode is around 40 minutes long, 40, 41, 42, something like that.

[00:01:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Dr. Sasha Reid is a developmental psychologist with experience in criminality, sociology

[00:02:00] [SPEAKER_01]: and the law.

[00:02:02] [SPEAKER_01]: She has convened a team of researchers called the Midnight Order, which includes a

[00:02:07] [SPEAKER_01]: psychotherapist, a data analyst, a forensic psychologist and a victim's advocate.

[00:02:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And they are building a database of missing and murdered people in Canada.

[00:02:17] [SPEAKER_01]: The first two episodes cover their investigation after a woman claims that her ex-husband

[00:02:22] [SPEAKER_01]: is a serial killer.

[00:02:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And then Episodes 3, 4 and 5 are concerned with serial killer Robert Picton, who was

[00:02:29] [SPEAKER_01]: indicted for 27 murders, convicted of sex, but he has laid claim to 49.

[00:02:37] [SPEAKER_01]: There's a ticking time clock as the RCMP has petitioned the court to destroy 14,000

[00:02:42] [SPEAKER_01]: pieces of evidence, including human bits and pieces, gathered at Picton's farm during

[00:02:48] [SPEAKER_01]: the investigation in 2001.

[00:02:51] [SPEAKER_01]: They have said that the volume of the materials is substantial and represents an

[00:02:56] [SPEAKER_01]: ongoing cost.

[00:02:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Families of the victims named in the 21 indictments that were stayed, as well

[00:03:03] [SPEAKER_01]: as other families of missing women who fit the location and victimology of Picton's

[00:03:07] [SPEAKER_01]: known victims, fear that their cases will never be solved if the evidence is

[00:03:12] [SPEAKER_01]: destroyed. And Picton himself petitioned the court not to destroy the evidence,

[00:03:17] [SPEAKER_01]: as he has always claimed he did not work alone.

[00:03:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Picton was sentenced to 25 years and was up for parole this year, which is

[00:03:26] [SPEAKER_01]: a fact that keeps tolling through the docuseries.

[00:03:29] [SPEAKER_01]: However, his cellmate bashed him to death in May, so they're done finished.

[00:03:35] [SPEAKER_01]: Marie, there's sort of echoes here of the Shamirmiyah case that we talked about in

[00:03:41] [SPEAKER_01]: the Pillowcase murders, which we both very much like that as well.

[00:03:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Most notably that both these serial killers could have been stopped earlier, had

[00:03:50] [SPEAKER_01]: law enforcement taken it seriously.

[00:03:55] [SPEAKER_01]: The victims of Shamirmiyah were elderly women, the victims of Picton are

[00:04:01] [SPEAKER_01]: indigenous women, sex workers, people on, let's say the margins.

[00:04:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And the families certainly feel that law enforcement didn't take it seriously.

[00:04:13] [SPEAKER_01]: And then echoes of both these men were bashed to death by their cellmate.

[00:04:18] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's a bit grim.

[00:04:21] [SPEAKER_01]: What did you think overall of this series?

[00:04:24] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'll throw in a question.

[00:04:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Are you surprised that it's by the same person who made Victim Suspect?

[00:04:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I am very shocked that it's by the same person who made Victim Suspect,

[00:04:40] [SPEAKER_02]: because I thoroughly enjoyed Victim Suspect.

[00:04:44] [SPEAKER_02]: I felt like Victim Suspect shed light on something that I didn't know was happening.

[00:04:50] [SPEAKER_02]: I thought Victim Suspect explained everything, the law, everything really well.

[00:05:01] [SPEAKER_02]: This, however, I did not like this.

[00:05:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Sasha, first off, Sasha Reed in The Midnight Order.

[00:05:10] [SPEAKER_02]: What is this? Is this an Archie comic book?

[00:05:13] [SPEAKER_01]: Like truly is this?

[00:05:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, what a mystic.

[00:05:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Horrid, horrid.

[00:05:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Horrible.

[00:05:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And the tone of it was so off putting to me as well.

[00:05:25] [SPEAKER_02]: It felt like I was like, am I watching a true crime docu-series

[00:05:31] [SPEAKER_02]: or am I watching an episode of Law and Order SVU?

[00:05:35] [SPEAKER_02]: Am I watching an episode of CSI Las Vegas?

[00:05:40] [SPEAKER_02]: You know what I'm saying?

[00:05:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Like it felt like they shot it like it's supposed to be a show.

[00:05:45] [SPEAKER_02]: But it was like real.

[00:05:47] [SPEAKER_02]: This was all real.

[00:05:49] [SPEAKER_02]: So it felt so overly manufactured to me.

[00:05:57] [SPEAKER_02]: Very like, just like overly done.

[00:06:01] [SPEAKER_02]: You could tell it was a voiceover most of the time.

[00:06:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm pretty sure Sasha Reed is good at what she does when it comes to

[00:06:09] [SPEAKER_02]: like building the database and advocating for victims and stuff.

[00:06:12] [SPEAKER_02]: But she is not good at doing voiceovers because it was so stiff.

[00:06:17] [SPEAKER_02]: It was very out of like you could tell it was out of place.

[00:06:20] [SPEAKER_02]: You could tell when they were doing a voiceover versus like actually talking in the moment.

[00:06:26] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't like the Scooby Doo-esque feeling of it.

[00:06:30] [SPEAKER_02]: The Nancy Drew, the Hardy Boys type feeling of it.

[00:06:34] [SPEAKER_02]: It reminded me and you know, I hate when cases are unresolved.

[00:06:39] [SPEAKER_01]: So I thought of you as we as we neared the end of both episode two and episode five.

[00:06:45] [SPEAKER_01]: I thought Omari is going to kill me and then that'll be solved.

[00:06:48] [SPEAKER_01]: People say, oh, so look to the work wife.

[00:06:53] [SPEAKER_01]: She did it.

[00:06:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Exactly. Because like what?

[00:06:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I it reminded me of the one series we watched where the where the woman thought her grandfather was a serial killer.

[00:07:09] [SPEAKER_02]: What was that called again?

[00:07:11] [SPEAKER_02]: I think my grandfather's serial killer, something like that.

[00:07:13] [SPEAKER_02]: But like, you know, I'm talking about that.

[00:07:16] [SPEAKER_02]: That's exactly what I do.

[00:07:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, yes.

[00:07:19] [SPEAKER_02]: That's exactly what this felt like because it was like first they're like, oh, we're on this case about Archie and his his wife thinks it's Archie.

[00:07:26] [SPEAKER_02]: And for two episodes were tracking down, like, could this case have been Archie?

[00:07:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, no, not that could this case.

[00:07:34] [SPEAKER_02]: No, not that one either.

[00:07:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Kid, any of these.

[00:07:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, no, none of these cases are Archie.

[00:07:38] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, Robert Pickton.

[00:07:40] [SPEAKER_02]: I was like, wait, what?

[00:07:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, how do we get here?

[00:07:45] [SPEAKER_02]: Like like smoke and mirrors, like magic sleight of hand.

[00:07:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Now we're talking about Robert Pickton.

[00:07:51] [SPEAKER_02]: OK, sure.

[00:07:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I I five episodes to.

[00:07:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Mm hmm. Oh, like, I'm so glad that I had a like a work from home day in order to I just let it play.

[00:08:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Because I don't think I would have been able to like.

[00:08:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Force myself to make time for it, like after work, you know what I'm saying?

[00:08:18] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't know if that makes any sense to people, but it's like I was very.

[00:08:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Let's go back to the before times before I saw this series.

[00:08:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I was very keen on watching it.

[00:08:31] [SPEAKER_01]: We did the wonderful

[00:08:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Marked by a documentary with Sarah Killeen, a cold case investigator about Dr.

[00:08:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Anne Burgess towards the end of that documentary.

[00:08:42] [SPEAKER_01]: We saw Dr.

[00:08:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Burgess assembling a group of young women.

[00:08:46] [SPEAKER_01]: They were women.

[00:08:47] [SPEAKER_01]: I think they probably just happened to be women, but they were women

[00:08:50] [SPEAKER_01]: who were looking at cold cases and she is sort of overseeing them.

[00:08:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Her students are making inroads there.

[00:08:58] [SPEAKER_01]: So I thought, ah, this is this is another version of that.

[00:09:02] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a Canadian version.

[00:09:04] [SPEAKER_01]: The my first problem and in fact, both of our first problems was

[00:09:07] [SPEAKER_01]: we could never remember what the thing was called because we've been talking.

[00:09:12] [SPEAKER_01]: So what is it called?

[00:09:14] [SPEAKER_01]: What is it called?

[00:09:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I can't remember.

[00:09:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Sasha Reed and the Midnight Order.

[00:09:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, well, OK, like that might have been forced on them by Hulu.

[00:09:26] [SPEAKER_01]: It might have been the director's choice.

[00:09:28] [SPEAKER_01]: This is before I realized it was the same person who did Victim Suspect,

[00:09:31] [SPEAKER_01]: which is like a brilliant title and a brilliant.

[00:09:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Go and watch that, everybody.

[00:09:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Honestly, but I then found out that it is Sasha Reed herself

[00:09:41] [SPEAKER_01]: who has called it the Midnight Order.

[00:09:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And it felt so.

[00:09:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Artificial.

[00:09:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, and especially in every episode, she says,

[00:09:51] [SPEAKER_01]: we are Sasha Reed and the Midnight Order.

[00:09:53] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, no, you're Sasha Reed.

[00:09:55] [SPEAKER_01]: They're the.

[00:09:57] [SPEAKER_01]: Leaving that aside, I kept trying to put that aside

[00:09:59] [SPEAKER_01]: because I think I like this more than you did.

[00:10:03] [SPEAKER_01]: The material is really interesting.

[00:10:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So we've got to start a material problem like we had last week

[00:10:10] [SPEAKER_01]: where the material is very interesting,

[00:10:14] [SPEAKER_01]: very current, gutting, very emotional, very important.

[00:10:21] [SPEAKER_01]: But the treatment of it now, we don't talk about people's looks

[00:10:26] [SPEAKER_01]: on this podcast or ever.

[00:10:28] [SPEAKER_01]: But the way that this entire Midnight Order is so TV ready,

[00:10:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I could not get past it.

[00:10:36] [SPEAKER_01]: First episode and this is the reason I feel able to to comment

[00:10:41] [SPEAKER_01]: is in the first episode, we see more than one of these young

[00:10:44] [SPEAKER_01]: women applying her winged eyeliner.

[00:10:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, you're going to be role about a serious academic person.

[00:10:53] [SPEAKER_01]: They can wear all the winged eyeliner they want.

[00:10:55] [SPEAKER_01]: That's fine.

[00:10:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Why am I watching her putting it on?

[00:10:58] [SPEAKER_01]: So that I found extremely off.

[00:11:03] [SPEAKER_02]: One of the girls had one of the girls had color contact lenses

[00:11:08] [SPEAKER_02]: that just did not suit her face.

[00:11:12] [SPEAKER_02]: So I was just.

[00:11:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I was just.

[00:11:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Are you going to boot those colored contacts?

[00:11:18] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, nobody should be wearing colored contacts in our year of the Lord.

[00:11:22] [SPEAKER_02]: Twenty twenty four. I'm sorry.

[00:11:24] [SPEAKER_01]: With the eyes you've got all eyes are beautiful.

[00:11:28] [SPEAKER_01]: You if you haven't watched it, listener, you may think

[00:11:31] [SPEAKER_01]: this is such a departure that Mari and I are talking about people's looks,

[00:11:35] [SPEAKER_01]: particularly young women's.

[00:11:37] [SPEAKER_01]: But when you see the documentary, you will see

[00:11:41] [SPEAKER_01]: the attention that the filmmaker gives to it.

[00:11:46] [SPEAKER_01]: It's really disturbing.

[00:11:47] [SPEAKER_01]: It's really off putting.

[00:11:49] [SPEAKER_02]: It's so weird.

[00:11:51] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, is this is this like a young adult novel?

[00:11:54] [SPEAKER_02]: This is a Percy Jones.

[00:11:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:11:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Mm hmm. I thought I kept thinking.

[00:11:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, I kept thinking I can't wait to talk to Mari about it.

[00:12:01] [SPEAKER_01]: And then I started to get afraid to talk to you about it.

[00:12:06] [SPEAKER_01]: But I kept thinking, what am I thinking about this?

[00:12:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Like, what are my thoughts?

[00:12:12] [SPEAKER_01]: How can I organize my thoughts?

[00:12:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I also thought going into it that it was five standalone episodes.

[00:12:19] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not. And that's fine.

[00:12:21] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:12:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Then I started to think.

[00:12:26] [SPEAKER_01]: All right, the filmmakers trying something different.

[00:12:28] [SPEAKER_01]: So I must open my mind.

[00:12:32] [SPEAKER_01]: Try and meet her where she is,

[00:12:34] [SPEAKER_01]: such an and Nancy Schwarzman.

[00:12:36] [SPEAKER_01]: What are they trying to do?

[00:12:38] [SPEAKER_01]: It behooves us as viewers of this material

[00:12:41] [SPEAKER_01]: to see what they are trying to achieve with it.

[00:12:46] [SPEAKER_01]: So we look at it at the base, I think two episodes on,

[00:12:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I think my ex husband is a serial killer,

[00:12:51] [SPEAKER_01]: which is literally the name of the first episode

[00:12:55] [SPEAKER_01]: and Stalking the Lone Wolf, which is the title of episode two.

[00:13:01] [SPEAKER_01]: It's fascinating.

[00:13:03] [SPEAKER_01]: The material is fascinating.

[00:13:05] [SPEAKER_01]: They receive this strange.

[00:13:07] [SPEAKER_01]: It reminded me of when you did a project at school,

[00:13:10] [SPEAKER_01]: like a science fair or something like that.

[00:13:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And you got the big cardboard, you got a box and you opened it out.

[00:13:16] [SPEAKER_01]: They had this huge piece of cardboard and then it would fold together.

[00:13:20] [SPEAKER_01]: They get sent this mysterious cardboard

[00:13:26] [SPEAKER_01]: folder book, something

[00:13:29] [SPEAKER_01]: from this woman who thinks that her ex husband is a serial killer.

[00:13:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And she has meticulously noted

[00:13:36] [SPEAKER_01]: deaths and what the relationship to her ex husband is

[00:13:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and what his behaviors were and all of that.

[00:13:43] [SPEAKER_01]: This poor woman, I mean, this poor woman

[00:13:46] [SPEAKER_01]: to be so tortured mentally,

[00:13:49] [SPEAKER_01]: certainly by her ex husband that she is investigating

[00:13:54] [SPEAKER_01]: and finding his victims.

[00:13:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm putting that in inverted commas.

[00:14:00] [SPEAKER_01]: It did remind me, yes, of that of that is my grandfather

[00:14:03] [SPEAKER_01]: a serial killer. No.

[00:14:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Just to step back for a moment, if there's ever an article

[00:14:08] [SPEAKER_01]: with a question mark in it like does social media rot your brain?

[00:14:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Question mark. It's a question mark.

[00:14:12] [SPEAKER_01]: The answer is no.

[00:14:17] [SPEAKER_01]: But unlike that one, I thought this was really good

[00:14:20] [SPEAKER_01]: because it didn't concentrate on the on the wife.

[00:14:25] [SPEAKER_01]: The person who we're saying the wife, we don't know her name.

[00:14:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Veronica, they call her.

[00:14:30] [SPEAKER_01]: And then they call her husband Archie.

[00:14:34] [SPEAKER_01]: They the Midnight Order that it is Veronica and Archie.

[00:14:37] [SPEAKER_01]: The pseudonyms that they give these people is not lost on either of us.

[00:14:42] [SPEAKER_01]: No, it's kind of funny.

[00:14:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Just to underline it.

[00:14:47] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's a slight lack.

[00:14:49] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I sort of yes, I was moving on to what's good.

[00:14:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm trying to get what's good.

[00:14:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And I keep being distracted by my butts and butts.

[00:14:58] [SPEAKER_01]: However, it doesn't concentrate on the ex wife.

[00:15:03] [SPEAKER_01]: It looks at how the database is made,

[00:15:07] [SPEAKER_01]: what the material contained in the database is,

[00:15:11] [SPEAKER_01]: what each of these researchers'

[00:15:14] [SPEAKER_01]: speciality is, although I could have had a much deeper dive into that.

[00:15:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Like how does this speciality support this speciality?

[00:15:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Why do you need this range of people?

[00:15:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we can imagine why.

[00:15:25] [SPEAKER_01]: But why don't you, the documentarian and Sasha tell us?

[00:15:29] [SPEAKER_01]: But OK, so we get to know these researchers

[00:15:33] [SPEAKER_01]: and a little bit about what their jobs are.

[00:15:36] [SPEAKER_01]: We see how they form the database,

[00:15:39] [SPEAKER_01]: what information is in there.

[00:15:41] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it is rich data, rich.

[00:15:44] [SPEAKER_01]: I was thinking, how do they sort through it?

[00:15:47] [SPEAKER_01]: They're putting so much data in, but that's why they have the data specialist.

[00:15:50] [SPEAKER_01]: They have two data specialists.

[00:15:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And they go through the major, let's say,

[00:15:57] [SPEAKER_01]: cases that the ex wife is laying against her husband.

[00:16:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like five cases that they're going through.

[00:16:04] [SPEAKER_01]: They concentrate on five cases.

[00:16:07] [SPEAKER_01]: And while they, I don't know what you would say, investigate,

[00:16:11] [SPEAKER_01]: let's say investigate the cases,

[00:16:13] [SPEAKER_01]: they certainly don't come up with an answer as to who did it.

[00:16:16] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's very interesting that they come up with the answer.

[00:16:18] [SPEAKER_01]: He didn't do it now.

[00:16:21] [SPEAKER_01]: We don't we're not mad on unsolved.

[00:16:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't mind on soft cases.

[00:16:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I know you don't like them.

[00:16:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I know a lot of people don't like them.

[00:16:27] [SPEAKER_01]: This was unsolved case in a very different way.

[00:16:31] [SPEAKER_01]: It was saying, who can we exclude?

[00:16:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And so you get a little bit of a glimpse into what some police procedure would be like.

[00:16:39] [SPEAKER_01]: We have our suspect and we exclude them by these various methods.

[00:16:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I found that mechanic really, really, really interesting.

[00:16:49] [SPEAKER_02]: But now that I'm sitting here thinking about it, though, like

[00:16:53] [SPEAKER_02]: I, yeah, I don't want to say this could have been made up,

[00:16:58] [SPEAKER_02]: but it could have been made up like we get fake names for the wife

[00:17:03] [SPEAKER_02]: and the husband, all of the most of the stuff is blurred out because you.

[00:17:09] [SPEAKER_02]: Because they're speculating, you know, I'm saying they're

[00:17:12] [SPEAKER_02]: all they're doing is speculating, so they can't be putting people's

[00:17:16] [SPEAKER_02]: faces on blast when they're speculating.

[00:17:18] [SPEAKER_02]: So that kind of takes takes me out of it, too.

[00:17:21] [SPEAKER_02]: You know what I'm saying? Like.

[00:17:23] [SPEAKER_02]: It's really like you don't realize, like how much.

[00:17:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Real life information is

[00:17:30] [SPEAKER_02]: is like displayed in true crime until you get a product

[00:17:34] [SPEAKER_02]: like a product like this where everything was blurred.

[00:17:38] [SPEAKER_02]: You know what I'm saying? Like it was weird.

[00:17:40] [SPEAKER_01]: That blur tool.

[00:17:41] [SPEAKER_01]: And I had that blue tool running.

[00:17:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Everything they blurred, like the like some of the crime scene photos.

[00:17:47] [SPEAKER_02]: The only thing they didn't really blur was like the victims.

[00:17:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know. It just like.

[00:17:54] [SPEAKER_02]: You're talking about that rich database that they have,

[00:17:57] [SPEAKER_02]: and I kind of wish they focused on that database more.

[00:18:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't think they did in a good way.

[00:18:04] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, I really truly don't.

[00:18:07] [SPEAKER_02]: I think they could have.

[00:18:08] [SPEAKER_02]: I would have loved for them to be like, OK, this is our database.

[00:18:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's pull.

[00:18:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Let's look at some of these.

[00:18:14] [SPEAKER_02]: This is how we look at it.

[00:18:15] [SPEAKER_02]: Most we look at this.

[00:18:16] [SPEAKER_02]: This is something that and like go through some of the cases

[00:18:19] [SPEAKER_02]: directly from their database.

[00:18:20] [SPEAKER_02]: I don't know why we needed this like.

[00:18:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I think my husband was a serial killer.

[00:18:27] [SPEAKER_02]: Here's a package.

[00:18:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like a hook. That's what I'm thinking.

[00:18:31] [SPEAKER_02]: So I didn't think about it until you were talking about it and stuff.

[00:18:34] [SPEAKER_02]: And I'm like.

[00:18:36] [SPEAKER_02]: Could they have kind of like maybe they just wanted to investigate

[00:18:40] [SPEAKER_02]: these five cases and instead of just being like,

[00:18:42] [SPEAKER_02]: we're going to investigate these five cases, let's try and.

[00:18:46] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it has a visual for it.

[00:18:48] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, they have a problem with visuals.

[00:18:51] [SPEAKER_01]: I wrote, yes, people sitting around a table

[00:18:54] [SPEAKER_01]: talking is not visually interesting.

[00:18:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So they had to find ways, the weird camera.

[00:19:00] [SPEAKER_01]: So they did weird camera cuts. They did fast cuts.

[00:19:03] [SPEAKER_01]: They did overlapping, overlapping, overlapping names.

[00:19:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And here this piece of cardboard is.

[00:19:10] [SPEAKER_01]: Is visually arresting, but then I kept thinking, show it to me.

[00:19:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to I want to see.

[00:19:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I want to look at it.

[00:19:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Read it. Read it.

[00:19:17] [SPEAKER_01]: It was there was a stack of papers and they looked like color coded things.

[00:19:22] [SPEAKER_01]: But I think so.

[00:19:24] [SPEAKER_02]: That's another thing. I'm sorry, Sarah.

[00:19:25] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, another thing.

[00:19:27] [SPEAKER_02]: The cartoonish, the outlandishness of it as well.

[00:19:32] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, everybody makes fun of Charlie Day with the red string and stuff like that.

[00:19:37] [SPEAKER_01]: With the red string, come on.

[00:19:38] [SPEAKER_02]: That's what that was like.

[00:19:40] [SPEAKER_02]: And I can't take it seriously because that that's not how real policing.

[00:19:47] [SPEAKER_02]: OK, I shouldn't say that.

[00:19:48] [SPEAKER_02]: I just but like you don't really see the police in there with like

[00:19:53] [SPEAKER_02]: highlighted stickers and look at all these dots everywhere.

[00:19:58] [SPEAKER_02]: And you know what I'm saying?

[00:19:59] [SPEAKER_02]: Olivia Benson puts up photos, but that's as far as you see.

[00:20:02] [SPEAKER_02]: That's as far as it goes.

[00:20:04] [SPEAKER_02]: It was just it felt so weird.

[00:20:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And it's like, I don't know.

[00:20:10] [SPEAKER_02]: It felt so preteen in a way like I don't know why they did.

[00:20:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I wonder if this is, you know, my first my first crime documentary.

[00:20:20] [SPEAKER_01]: But yeah, look, I say it's interesting,

[00:20:25] [SPEAKER_01]: but I was looking to find the interesting thing in these in this pair of episodes.

[00:20:31] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think it went up to the brink and then it turned away modestly.

[00:20:36] [SPEAKER_01]: Like it's true crime.

[00:20:38] [SPEAKER_01]: We can be sensitive to the victims, but we we can't be modest.

[00:20:42] [SPEAKER_01]: All this veil drawing over things.

[00:20:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. So I thought, well, OK, they wanted to do two episodes

[00:20:49] [SPEAKER_01]: really setting up.

[00:20:50] [SPEAKER_01]: How does the midnight order? Sorry.

[00:20:53] [SPEAKER_01]: And they call it they call it that.

[00:20:55] [SPEAKER_01]: And Sasha says, oh, I better get the midnight order together.

[00:20:57] [SPEAKER_01]: No, no, no.

[00:20:59] [SPEAKER_01]: How this group of researchers, I'm going to call them

[00:21:03] [SPEAKER_01]: setting up how this group of researchers works

[00:21:07] [SPEAKER_01]: in a procedural way would have been really interesting.

[00:21:09] [SPEAKER_01]: And we had glimpses of that.

[00:21:12] [SPEAKER_01]: So all right. Two episodes in.

[00:21:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm thinking, OK.

[00:21:16] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm trying to see where this is coming from.

[00:21:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm trying to find my way into this

[00:21:23] [SPEAKER_01]: style that I find.

[00:21:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Foggy, vague, billowy curtains.

[00:21:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Can't wait to talk to Mari about this.

[00:21:32] [SPEAKER_01]: But it wasn't enough to make me turn it off.

[00:21:34] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think certainly the 40 minute runtime.

[00:21:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, it's favor, because can you imagine it helps?

[00:21:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I just I let it just play through.

[00:21:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Like I said, yeah, yeah, I must say for five.

[00:21:49] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, yeah, so five episodes.

[00:21:51] [SPEAKER_01]: So let's talk about episodes three, four and five.

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So the.

[00:21:55] [SPEAKER_02]: All right. Before you get to episodes three, four and five,

[00:21:58] [SPEAKER_02]: I do want to say like you were talking about like the victims.

[00:22:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I think we're in episodes three, four and five.

[00:22:07] [SPEAKER_02]: That was the strongest parts for like the victims,

[00:22:11] [SPEAKER_02]: like representation of the victims for me.

[00:22:14] [SPEAKER_02]: But it's still like you said, it didn't feel like as respectful

[00:22:19] [SPEAKER_02]: as I feel like it should have been.

[00:22:23] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. I don't I don't want to say they were disrespectful to the victims.

[00:22:27] [SPEAKER_01]: You know what I'm saying?

[00:22:28] [SPEAKER_01]: I think I have a I think I might have a clue

[00:22:31] [SPEAKER_01]: to why you have that feeling of unease, because I certainly did.

[00:22:34] [SPEAKER_01]: So here we're talking about this serial killer, Robert Picton,

[00:22:38] [SPEAKER_01]: and we learn far more about him than we actually want to.

[00:22:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Although we're true crime junkies.

[00:22:43] [SPEAKER_01]: So of course, we want to know all about Robert Picton.

[00:22:45] [SPEAKER_01]: And I hadn't heard of him.

[00:22:47] [SPEAKER_01]: We speak to a handful of the victims families,

[00:22:51] [SPEAKER_01]: particularly those in the 21 as they call stayed indictments.

[00:22:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So he was indicted for 27.

[00:22:57] [SPEAKER_01]: He was charged with six.

[00:22:59] [SPEAKER_01]: The families of the 21 that were about to be stayed,

[00:23:03] [SPEAKER_01]: set aside, basically, were told, no, don't worry.

[00:23:06] [SPEAKER_01]: We're going to get him on the six and then we're going to get him on on more.

[00:23:10] [SPEAKER_01]: It's exact thing happened with Shamir Meir.

[00:23:12] [SPEAKER_01]: And then they say, oh, well, he's in for 25 years.

[00:23:14] [SPEAKER_01]: So it's too expensive to prosecute.

[00:23:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes. I mean, absolutely horrifying.

[00:23:21] [SPEAKER_01]: This is we haven't even got to the destruction of evidence yet.

[00:23:25] [SPEAKER_01]: But so we speak to two sisters,

[00:23:27] [SPEAKER_01]: mothers, daughters who are all incredible, like incredible.

[00:23:33] [SPEAKER_01]: And the camera seems to linger.

[00:23:37] [SPEAKER_01]: On the emotional response of the researchers.

[00:23:42] [SPEAKER_01]: To the stories they're being told, and that made me very uncomfortable.

[00:23:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Oh, I got you.

[00:23:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah. OK.

[00:23:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Instead of like the family members.

[00:23:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah. Yeah.

[00:23:53] [SPEAKER_01]: So the family members are telling their stories and they're wonderful.

[00:23:57] [SPEAKER_01]: And then we go on an extreme close up of one of the researchers with

[00:24:02] [SPEAKER_01]: an emotional response.

[00:24:03] [SPEAKER_01]: And I thought, no, no, no cameras on the wrong person.

[00:24:07] [SPEAKER_02]: But also, dang it, I forgot that this happened in like the first or second episode.

[00:24:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Remember when they interviewed that police officer who like

[00:24:15] [SPEAKER_02]: didn't want to be there?

[00:24:17] [SPEAKER_01]: Got nothing. No, I can't say comment.

[00:24:20] [SPEAKER_01]: No, can't comment. Sorry.

[00:24:22] [SPEAKER_02]: This is an active investigation, even though we have no suspects

[00:24:26] [SPEAKER_02]: and we haven't listened to it in 20 years.

[00:24:28] [SPEAKER_02]: No, I would answer it.

[00:24:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I would answer if I could.

[00:24:33] [SPEAKER_02]: He was so clipped and so short with them.

[00:24:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And then the two the two women were just in there like.

[00:24:40] [SPEAKER_02]: The one girl went to like having to answer another question.

[00:24:45] [SPEAKER_02]: It was so weird.

[00:24:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Why would you even include?

[00:24:48] [SPEAKER_01]: Did we learn anything from that interaction?

[00:24:52] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, imagine if Keith Morrison was sitting there, he'd be hammering him.

[00:24:56] [SPEAKER_01]: That's odd that you can't answer me.

[00:24:59] [SPEAKER_01]: Why did you come to this interview?

[00:25:01] [SPEAKER_01]: If you're not going to give me any information, I mean, there was none of that.

[00:25:04] [SPEAKER_01]: But there you go.

[00:25:06] [SPEAKER_01]: They're doing they're doing it their way.

[00:25:10] [SPEAKER_01]: I guess we do get some law enforcement.

[00:25:13] [SPEAKER_01]: We get Dave Dixon, a former PD.

[00:25:16] [SPEAKER_01]: He was in the investigation of some of these murders.

[00:25:19] [SPEAKER_01]: He said he was alone in his little cold case office

[00:25:22] [SPEAKER_01]: and next door, the garage theft department had eight detectives.

[00:25:27] [SPEAKER_01]: So little insights like that were really good.

[00:25:32] [SPEAKER_01]: And he's very forthcoming.

[00:25:34] [SPEAKER_01]: But all the other law enforcement they speak to are not forthcoming.

[00:25:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Apart from the media, the media liaison who says,

[00:25:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, no, there's plenty of storage, the storage everywhere.

[00:25:44] [SPEAKER_01]: Like if we want storage, we can find storage.

[00:25:46] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, oh, did no one did no one

[00:25:49] [SPEAKER_01]: brief you that we don't have enough storage and we have to do.

[00:25:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Yeah, yeah.

[00:25:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Murray, we can't be promised that it would blow our socks off.

[00:26:01] [SPEAKER_01]: We have we have not recordings of Picton,

[00:26:05] [SPEAKER_01]: but actors voicing recordings of Picton and his power of attorney

[00:26:09] [SPEAKER_01]: and Picton talking about, oh, when they find when they find this out,

[00:26:13] [SPEAKER_01]: it's all going to blow up.

[00:26:15] [SPEAKER_01]: Referring to co-conspirators hinting about co-conspirators.

[00:26:19] [SPEAKER_01]: He'd been in jail 25 years.

[00:26:20] [SPEAKER_01]: He's never named anybody.

[00:26:22] [SPEAKER_01]: Did you just left you with this was like a real

[00:26:26] [SPEAKER_01]: tease that never paid off this idea that that there were these co-conspirators

[00:26:31] [SPEAKER_01]: unnamed and suspects that were not suspected.

[00:26:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, it was a little bit of a porridge for me around about it.

[00:26:41] [SPEAKER_02]: I was losing my will to be real with you.

[00:26:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I was still confused how we got to Robert Picton.

[00:26:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, honestly, it was just like, OK, that that lady husband is not a serial killer.

[00:26:56] [SPEAKER_01]: But Robert Picton is.

[00:26:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like we're like, why can I like this could

[00:27:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I would have just wanted the Robert Picton stuff.

[00:27:07] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes. You didn't have to do like this could have been two separate things.

[00:27:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, why? Why did they put it together like this?

[00:27:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it is two separate things.

[00:27:15] [SPEAKER_01]: But because of the way it was, it was released week by week, which I think is smart.

[00:27:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, I watched it all at once.

[00:27:23] [SPEAKER_01]: And that may be my error.

[00:27:25] [SPEAKER_01]: Maybe that's the same.

[00:27:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Because it's two.

[00:27:28] [SPEAKER_01]: It's two and then it's three.

[00:27:31] [SPEAKER_01]: So just to specify that.

[00:27:34] [SPEAKER_01]: So did they because did they specify that?

[00:27:38] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, they certainly dropped the Veronica and Archie

[00:27:41] [SPEAKER_01]: and moved straight on to Robert Picton.

[00:27:43] [SPEAKER_01]: Right. I got to I feel like I would have to go back to episode at the end.

[00:27:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Are you going to give a realistic?

[00:27:50] [SPEAKER_02]: No, I'm not. But at the end of episode two, did they give us like a black card?

[00:27:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, oh, we could not do this or whatever.

[00:28:00] [SPEAKER_01]: And. They gave us Coming Up On, which was Robert Picton.

[00:28:05] [SPEAKER_01]: And I think one of us has to go back.

[00:28:08] [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, listeners. Listen, go back.

[00:28:10] [SPEAKER_01]: What's the last part of the clip?

[00:28:12] [SPEAKER_02]: So that's not because I would make more sense if they if they at least sectioned it off

[00:28:18] [SPEAKER_02]: better, that would have been more sense. But OK, sorry.

[00:28:21] [SPEAKER_02]: OK, let me actually answer the question.

[00:28:24] [SPEAKER_02]: The dangling of the was there more accomplices?

[00:28:27] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean. I didn't believe it, so I wasn't like, oh, is there more accomplices?

[00:28:34] [SPEAKER_02]: I would I like you said, it's been 25 years.

[00:28:37] [SPEAKER_02]: You know me, the big, you know, when it comes to the big guns and the big guys,

[00:28:41] [SPEAKER_02]: the big serial killers that we know all about, it's it's really hard for you.

[00:28:46] [SPEAKER_02]: It's really hard for me to get invested because I've heard the story so many times.

[00:28:51] [SPEAKER_02]: And how often are you contributing something new to it?

[00:28:59] [SPEAKER_02]: And. This kind of felt like a ploy to try and contribute something new to it.

[00:29:03] [SPEAKER_02]: But also, I was kind of also like, I mean, if he did have accomplices,

[00:29:08] [SPEAKER_02]: would I be surprised? No. You know, like.

[00:29:11] [SPEAKER_01]: No, but I just don't find that any believable way

[00:29:15] [SPEAKER_01]: that Robert Picton, as he has been depicted to us, we don't know him.

[00:29:19] [SPEAKER_01]: We don't meet him. Well, we see a little interview with him.

[00:29:23] [SPEAKER_01]: Police interview with me and and a jail jailhouse snitch

[00:29:26] [SPEAKER_01]: interview with him as well. Yeah.

[00:29:29] [SPEAKER_01]: Uh huh. Robert Picton, as he is depicted to us,

[00:29:32] [SPEAKER_01]: is not a man who is going to keep his mouth shut for 25 years.

[00:29:36] [SPEAKER_01]: When giving another name might might help his case.

[00:29:41] [SPEAKER_01]: So that's one thing, unless.

[00:29:44] [SPEAKER_01]: The other name is his brother.

[00:29:48] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I would believe that too, but my thought process is like

[00:29:52] [SPEAKER_02]: when they process that evidence, wouldn't wouldn't.

[00:29:56] [SPEAKER_02]: Well, that's one of the questions.

[00:29:58] [SPEAKER_01]: That's one of the questions that the families had was

[00:30:01] [SPEAKER_01]: David Picton ever seriously considered as a suspect.

[00:30:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And they fear not.

[00:30:09] [SPEAKER_00]: Do you also wish for a person on your side

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[00:31:27] [SPEAKER_01]: With the Hells Angels question mark or not question mark

[00:31:31] [SPEAKER_01]: or maybe the Hells Angels question mark.

[00:31:33] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't mind questions being brought up.

[00:31:37] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't mind them not being answered,

[00:31:39] [SPEAKER_01]: but it was a morass of these dangling question marks

[00:31:44] [SPEAKER_01]: and this push to save the evidence from being destroyed.

[00:31:51] [SPEAKER_01]: Then we go down a bit of a conspiracy theory of, oh, someone,

[00:31:55] [SPEAKER_01]: someone wants the evidence destroyed.

[00:31:58] [SPEAKER_01]: The Hells Angels have friends in high places.

[00:32:02] [SPEAKER_01]: Again, nothing came of that.

[00:32:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And I thought, oh, well, we'll finish on,

[00:32:07] [SPEAKER_01]: because I knew Robert Picton was dead.

[00:32:09] [SPEAKER_01]: We'll finish on some kind of, don't mind things being unsolved.

[00:32:15] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't mind them dangling, but we'll finish on some kind of ending.

[00:32:19] [SPEAKER_01]: The case continues or we managed to get the evidence saved

[00:32:26] [SPEAKER_01]: or whatever it might be.

[00:32:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, you and I know somebody who was running to catch a plane

[00:32:32] [SPEAKER_01]: to go to a state to take charge of some evidence

[00:32:36] [SPEAKER_01]: that was about to be destroyed in a cold case.

[00:32:41] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, we know secondhand that that does happen.

[00:32:46] [SPEAKER_01]: But even that was unsatisfactory because question mark.

[00:32:53] [SPEAKER_02]: Question mark, question mark.

[00:32:55] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I'm like I.

[00:33:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Nothing here, like I guess the most

[00:33:03] [SPEAKER_02]: that I got out of this was them trying to preserve the evidence.

[00:33:07] [SPEAKER_02]: And I too was thinking like, yes, let's preserve the evidence.

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_02]: You know what I'm saying?

[00:33:11] [SPEAKER_02]: Like the families are asking you to preserve the evidence.

[00:33:14] [SPEAKER_02]: The whole thing about they found a woman's vertebrae in the farm

[00:33:20] [SPEAKER_02]: and they still didn't try him for her, you know, stuff like that.

[00:33:25] [SPEAKER_01]: I was like, OK, that I mean, that was the one

[00:33:28] [SPEAKER_01]: that was the one moment where they managed to push back on

[00:33:31] [SPEAKER_01]: on law enforcement, where the prosecutor was saying, well, yes,

[00:33:36] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, the six and we knew we could prosecute because we had,

[00:33:39] [SPEAKER_01]: you know, the larger amount of of remains and the others.

[00:33:43] [SPEAKER_01]: And they said, well, what about vertebrae?

[00:33:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Oh, what vertebrae?

[00:33:47] [SPEAKER_01]: So that was one moment of that.

[00:33:50] [SPEAKER_01]: I love meeting the indigenous advocates.

[00:33:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I love going to them or love just sort of the wrong word,

[00:33:57] [SPEAKER_01]: but going to the march was fantastic.

[00:33:59] [SPEAKER_01]: But again, we're at the march where people are holding photographs

[00:34:03] [SPEAKER_01]: of their missing and murdered loved ones.

[00:34:06] [SPEAKER_01]: And it's a sea of people and all the red and black

[00:34:09] [SPEAKER_01]: that they're wearing is incredible.

[00:34:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And then the camera zooms in on the faces of our researchers.

[00:34:16] [SPEAKER_01]: It's like, no, I do not want to see their reaction to it.

[00:34:21] [SPEAKER_01]: Just show me the thing and I'll have my reaction.

[00:34:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I don't need them to lead me through what my emotional

[00:34:27] [SPEAKER_01]: response should be to these people.

[00:34:29] [SPEAKER_01]: So I liked, you know, as I said last week, you know,

[00:34:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I like being asked to bear witness.

[00:34:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I think it's important.

[00:34:36] [SPEAKER_01]: I did learn some things that I didn't know before.

[00:34:40] [SPEAKER_01]: There was the fantastic story of victim 97,

[00:34:44] [SPEAKER_01]: which I sat up on my hind legs when that happened.

[00:34:48] [SPEAKER_01]: A woman abducted in 1997 by pick-up.

[00:34:50] [SPEAKER_01]: That was very interesting.

[00:34:52] [SPEAKER_01]: She was handcuffed. He was stabbing her.

[00:34:54] [SPEAKER_01]: She got the knife away. She stabbed him.

[00:34:56] [SPEAKER_01]: She crawled out to the road.

[00:34:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Both of them were taken to the same hospital.

[00:35:00] [SPEAKER_01]: He had the key to her handcuffs in his pocket,

[00:35:05] [SPEAKER_01]: but the police did not believe her.

[00:35:07] [SPEAKER_01]: A stabbed woman in handcuffs crawling to the road

[00:35:11] [SPEAKER_01]: to be taken to hospital.

[00:35:12] [SPEAKER_01]: The man also with stab wounds with a key

[00:35:16] [SPEAKER_01]: to her handcuffs in his pocket.

[00:35:18] [SPEAKER_01]: Now, if they really didn't believe her,

[00:35:21] [SPEAKER_01]: why didn't they charge her for stabbing him?

[00:35:23] [SPEAKER_01]: They did not.

[00:35:24] [SPEAKER_01]: So there was this nugget of,

[00:35:26] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, we can't hear these stories often enough.

[00:35:28] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a familiar story.

[00:35:30] [SPEAKER_01]: Victims not being believed, women not being believed.

[00:35:33] [SPEAKER_01]: People who are street adjacent,

[00:35:34] [SPEAKER_01]: not being street involved, not being believed.

[00:35:37] [SPEAKER_01]: Sex workers not being believed.

[00:35:39] [SPEAKER_01]: People of colour not being believed.

[00:35:41] [SPEAKER_01]: It's not new, but we need to hear it.

[00:35:44] [SPEAKER_01]: And the specifics of it are really important for each person.

[00:35:49] [SPEAKER_01]: That specific of the key in his pocket was fantastic.

[00:35:53] [SPEAKER_01]: But it was sort of...

[00:35:54] [SPEAKER_01]: Jarring.

[00:35:55] [SPEAKER_01]: It was jarring.

[00:35:56] [SPEAKER_01]: It was a sharp, focused piece

[00:35:59] [SPEAKER_01]: in what was a very spongy five episodes.

[00:36:06] [SPEAKER_01]: Do you have anything more to say before we go to our ratings?

[00:36:10] [SPEAKER_01]: No, let's go to our ratings.

[00:36:12] [SPEAKER_01]: Mari, how many magnifying glasses

[00:36:14] [SPEAKER_01]: will you give this docu-series,

[00:36:16] [SPEAKER_01]: Sasha Reid and The Midnight Order out of a possible five?

[00:36:21] [SPEAKER_02]: I think I'd have to give it a two, honestly.

[00:36:25] [SPEAKER_02]: It was...

[00:36:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, it was lacklustre for me.

[00:36:29] [SPEAKER_02]: Five part...

[00:36:31] [SPEAKER_02]: It's amazing that, I don't know if this is impressive or not,

[00:36:34] [SPEAKER_02]: but it's amazing that five parts at 40 minutes

[00:36:38] [SPEAKER_02]: didn't feel like it dragged.

[00:36:40] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes.

[00:36:41] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like that is a compliment?

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Question mark?

[00:36:46] [SPEAKER_02]: Question mark.

[00:36:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Like the content felt so thin that it didn't drag.

[00:36:54] [SPEAKER_02]: If that makes sense.

[00:36:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Like you said, it's very my first true crime.

[00:36:58] [SPEAKER_02]: It was like, who were you?

[00:37:00] [SPEAKER_02]: Was this for people who are just getting into true crime?

[00:37:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Let me walk you through it.

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_02]: Like, no.

[00:37:05] [SPEAKER_02]: How can it be?

[00:37:06] [SPEAKER_01]: These are serious...

[00:37:09] [SPEAKER_01]: Sorry, you're giving your writing session an interview.

[00:37:11] [SPEAKER_02]: No, no, no, it's okay.

[00:37:12] [SPEAKER_02]: No, it's just like...

[00:37:14] [SPEAKER_02]: I mean, I liked the graphics.

[00:37:15] [SPEAKER_02]: I did love the graphics on the screen of the data

[00:37:19] [SPEAKER_02]: when they tried to talk about the data and the profiles.

[00:37:23] [SPEAKER_02]: That was kind of cool.

[00:37:24] [SPEAKER_02]: Again, also a little hunky.

[00:37:26] [SPEAKER_02]: Very, very colorful, like colorful and bright,

[00:37:29] [SPEAKER_02]: but not too bad.

[00:37:31] [SPEAKER_02]: I just...

[00:37:33] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I didn't leave.

[00:37:35] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't leave feeling changed.

[00:37:39] [SPEAKER_02]: I really didn't...

[00:37:42] [SPEAKER_02]: I felt like there was something keeping me

[00:37:44] [SPEAKER_02]: from emotionally connecting to the cases.

[00:37:47] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe it's because...

[00:37:49] [SPEAKER_02]: Because the researchers were in the way.

[00:37:51] [SPEAKER_01]: The researchers were in the way.

[00:37:52] [SPEAKER_01]: Having a very emotional response to the cases.

[00:37:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe that's what it was, but it just felt like a wall.

[00:37:58] [SPEAKER_02]: Like it truly, truly felt like a wall

[00:38:01] [SPEAKER_02]: between myself and the victims.

[00:38:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And until I think, like I said,

[00:38:05] [SPEAKER_02]: the Robert Picton ones were...

[00:38:07] [SPEAKER_02]: That was a little bit better because I feel like they spoke

[00:38:10] [SPEAKER_02]: to people who were better at talking about the plight

[00:38:15] [SPEAKER_02]: of missing Indigenous women, if that makes sense.

[00:38:19] [SPEAKER_02]: Like one of my favorite parts is when they showed the dots

[00:38:22] [SPEAKER_02]: from their database of like...

[00:38:24] [SPEAKER_02]: These are dots where women went missing.

[00:38:26] [SPEAKER_02]: These are dots from like where women were murdered or whatever.

[00:38:30] [SPEAKER_02]: And they put it on like the Google Maps

[00:38:33] [SPEAKER_02]: and they showed it to her.

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_02]: And the woman's like,

[00:38:35] [SPEAKER_02]: wow, that's very jarring.

[00:38:37] [SPEAKER_02]: That's going to sit with me.

[00:38:38] [SPEAKER_02]: I was like finally like some real emotion?

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Question mark.

[00:38:43] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I feel bad for calling...

[00:38:45] [SPEAKER_02]: But her reaction to seeing those that made...

[00:38:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And even while she's having that reaction,

[00:38:50] [SPEAKER_02]: Sasha reads like,

[00:38:52] [SPEAKER_02]: each one of those dots represents one person's life.

[00:38:55] [SPEAKER_01]: Like thank you, Sasha.

[00:38:56] [SPEAKER_01]: Yes, Sasha, thank you.

[00:38:58] [SPEAKER_01]: Right?

[00:39:00] [SPEAKER_01]: What was startling about that was

[00:39:02] [SPEAKER_01]: that woman was a victim's advocate and knows the numbers.

[00:39:06] [SPEAKER_01]: But it's like she even said like I know the numbers,

[00:39:09] [SPEAKER_01]: but just that visual representation

[00:39:12] [SPEAKER_01]: was really startling for her and for us.

[00:39:17] [SPEAKER_02]: So I might just give it a two.

[00:39:19] [SPEAKER_02]: I didn't...

[00:39:20] [SPEAKER_02]: And I would not suggest it to be quite honest.

[00:39:22] [SPEAKER_02]: I would not.

[00:39:24] [SPEAKER_02]: There was...

[00:39:25] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm sorry, there was nothing interesting about it to me.

[00:39:30] [SPEAKER_02]: How about you, Sarah?

[00:39:31] [SPEAKER_02]: What are you going to rate Sasha Reed in the Midnight Order?

[00:39:34] [SPEAKER_01]: Look, I think it...

[00:39:35] [SPEAKER_01]: I think I was marginally more pleased than you were with it.

[00:39:40] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to give it two and a half.

[00:39:42] [SPEAKER_01]: It exists.

[00:39:43] [SPEAKER_01]: It was made.

[00:39:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Your work is really important, Sasha Reed in the Midnight Order.

[00:39:48] [SPEAKER_01]: The work that you do is really, really important.

[00:39:53] [SPEAKER_01]: I mean, I'm assuming they're getting research money,

[00:39:55] [SPEAKER_01]: but there wouldn't be a lot of money for it.

[00:39:56] [SPEAKER_01]: It is a lot of work.

[00:39:58] [SPEAKER_01]: It's meticulous.

[00:39:59] [SPEAKER_01]: It's draining because each of those dots represents a person.

[00:40:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Mary, did you know that?

[00:40:04] [SPEAKER_01]: So they are dealing with this material

[00:40:08] [SPEAKER_01]: and they each have their own reasons to be interested in it.

[00:40:11] [SPEAKER_01]: And I found that interesting.

[00:40:14] [SPEAKER_01]: I learned a few things I didn't know,

[00:40:16] [SPEAKER_01]: but in the end, it was like a gauzy curtain flapping.

[00:40:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Somehow I couldn't quite grasp it.

[00:40:22] [SPEAKER_01]: They were between me and the victims' families.

[00:40:27] [SPEAKER_01]: Everything was up in the air.

[00:40:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Everything was question marked.

[00:40:30] [SPEAKER_01]: We had very odd people sitting around a table

[00:40:33] [SPEAKER_01]: telling each other information that the other person already knew.

[00:40:37] [SPEAKER_01]: This is very, very bad exposition.

[00:40:40] [SPEAKER_01]: Any good script writer will tell you, you can't do that.

[00:40:43] [SPEAKER_01]: I've known Mary, my friend, who I've known for some time

[00:40:46] [SPEAKER_01]: and who podcasts with me.

[00:40:47] [SPEAKER_01]: You know, people who say,

[00:40:48] [SPEAKER_01]: ah, my sister, you've walked into the room.

[00:40:50] [SPEAKER_01]: No, you can't do that.

[00:40:52] [SPEAKER_01]: So we have even pairs of researchers

[00:40:54] [SPEAKER_01]: telling each other information that they already know

[00:40:58] [SPEAKER_01]: because they've decided on this kind of...

[00:41:01] [SPEAKER_01]: Scooby Doo is about right.

[00:41:03] [SPEAKER_01]: Menetsi drew where they're not necessarily talking to us,

[00:41:08] [SPEAKER_01]: although they did do talking heads.

[00:41:09] [SPEAKER_01]: I was startled, is the word, to find out

[00:41:14] [SPEAKER_01]: that this is the same person who made Victim Suspect.

[00:41:17] [SPEAKER_01]: So I'm not going to recommend this.

[00:41:20] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm going to recommend that you do something else,

[00:41:22] [SPEAKER_01]: potentially something nice, go for a walk maybe.

[00:41:26] [SPEAKER_01]: Speaking of recommendations,

[00:41:28] [SPEAKER_01]: Mary, do you have anything to recommend to our listeners?

[00:41:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, I'm going to recommend...

[00:41:32] [SPEAKER_02]: I just started it.

[00:41:33] [SPEAKER_02]: It's a book that I've been hearing a lot of good things about.

[00:41:38] [SPEAKER_02]: It's called The Silent Patient by Alex Michalades.

[00:41:43] [SPEAKER_02]: I think that's how you say it.

[00:41:44] [SPEAKER_02]: It's really hard to say their name,

[00:41:48] [SPEAKER_02]: but it's basically kind of like a mystery,

[00:41:55] [SPEAKER_02]: thriller type of book.

[00:41:57] [SPEAKER_02]: It's like suspense with a twist.

[00:42:00] [SPEAKER_02]: I just started it.

[00:42:01] [SPEAKER_02]: So far so good.

[00:42:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I've seen so many people recommend it.

[00:42:04] [SPEAKER_02]: I've seen so many people just out and about reading it.

[00:42:07] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm excited to get into it.

[00:42:10] [SPEAKER_02]: I've been going back and forth.

[00:42:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Like I said, I just started it

[00:42:14] [SPEAKER_02]: because I'm trying to break myself out of these

[00:42:17] [SPEAKER_02]: Will Trent books that I had recommended a few weeks ago.

[00:42:24] [SPEAKER_01]: I watched the whole three series.

[00:42:27] [SPEAKER_01]: It's so pleasingly done.

[00:42:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I loved it.

[00:42:30] [SPEAKER_02]: Yeah, like it's very low stakes, the show is very low stakes.

[00:42:35] [SPEAKER_02]: The books are kind of intense and I'm already on book seven.

[00:42:43] [SPEAKER_02]: So I'm trying to like tear myself away from Will Trent

[00:42:47] [SPEAKER_02]: by listening to The Silent Patient.

[00:42:51] [SPEAKER_02]: So go check that out if it's something that interests you.

[00:42:55] [SPEAKER_02]: Maybe once I'm done, because I have no idea what's going on at this point.

[00:43:02] [SPEAKER_02]: But you know what I'm saying?

[00:43:03] [SPEAKER_02]: When the book starts, you're like, I don't know what's happening.

[00:43:07] [SPEAKER_02]: So once I'm done, I'll probably give a hard recommendation

[00:43:11] [SPEAKER_02]: on what I thought about it without no spoilers.

[00:43:16] [SPEAKER_02]: But from what I understand, because people are like,

[00:43:18] [SPEAKER_02]: I love a good twist, I love a book with a twist.

[00:43:21] [SPEAKER_02]: So it seems like there's going to be a twist.

[00:43:23] [SPEAKER_02]: So I hope there's a twist.

[00:43:24] [SPEAKER_02]: But I won't tell you guys if there's a twist,

[00:43:26] [SPEAKER_02]: but I'll at least tell you if I liked it, if there is.

[00:43:29] [SPEAKER_02]: So Sarah, what about you?

[00:43:30] [SPEAKER_02]: What do you have to recommend to our listeners?

[00:43:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I'm also going to recommend a book.

[00:43:34] [SPEAKER_01]: We must all be in a reading phase at the moment.

[00:43:37] [SPEAKER_01]: It's a series that Rebecca Lavoie recommended, actually, recently.

[00:43:41] [SPEAKER_01]: It's Anthony Horowitz, the Hawthorne series.

[00:43:45] [SPEAKER_01]: Now he's the man who wrote the Alex Rider series,

[00:43:48] [SPEAKER_01]: which is YA, young detective, lots of fun.

[00:43:53] [SPEAKER_01]: He also wrote on Foyle's War.

[00:43:55] [SPEAKER_01]: So here he is writing in the Hawthorne series,

[00:43:59] [SPEAKER_01]: detective novels where Horowitz as himself

[00:44:03] [SPEAKER_01]: follows Detective Hawthorne around as a reluctant Watson.

[00:44:06] [SPEAKER_01]: So he refers to Alex Rider, he refers to Foyle's War.

[00:44:10] [SPEAKER_01]: He refers to going to the Hayon Y Book Festival

[00:44:13] [SPEAKER_01]: to talk about Alex Rider.

[00:44:15] [SPEAKER_01]: And there are always people there who want to talk about Foyle's War.

[00:44:18] [SPEAKER_01]: So he is himself.

[00:44:19] [SPEAKER_01]: He's been approached by Detective Hawthorne.

[00:44:21] [SPEAKER_01]: He's fictional.

[00:44:23] [SPEAKER_01]: I've just read the first in the series called The Word is Murder.

[00:44:27] [SPEAKER_01]: It's delightfully English.

[00:44:31] [SPEAKER_01]: It's it's fully satisfying.

[00:44:32] [SPEAKER_01]: I am going to recommend that.

[00:44:36] [SPEAKER_01]: And thank you, Rebecca, for recommending that to your listeners

[00:44:39] [SPEAKER_01]: over there on Crime Riders On.

[00:44:41] [SPEAKER_01]: At Crime Scene, we're eager to hear your feedback and suggestions

[00:44:44] [SPEAKER_01]: for future episodes.

[00:44:46] [SPEAKER_01]: You can follow Crime Scene on Twitter at Crime Scene RHAP.

[00:44:49] [SPEAKER_01]: That's S E E N or email us at crime scene rhap at gmail dot com.

[00:44:55] [SPEAKER_02]: We're on TikTok at crime dot scene and all other social media

[00:45:00] [SPEAKER_02]: at crime scene podcast.

[00:45:02] [SPEAKER_02]: And please remember to subscribe to our feed by going to Rob has a website

[00:45:05] [SPEAKER_02]: dot com slash crime feed.

[00:45:08] [SPEAKER_02]: It makes a huge difference.

[00:45:11] [SPEAKER_01]: Mari, what have you got going on and where can the people find you?

[00:45:15] [SPEAKER_02]: So me and Chappelle just wrapped up our Westeros kickback

[00:45:18] [SPEAKER_02]: over on the recap kickback.

[00:45:20] [SPEAKER_02]: We are officially done with House of the Dragon season two.

[00:45:23] [SPEAKER_02]: We had so much fun over there.

[00:45:25] [SPEAKER_02]: If you haven't listened, what are you waiting for?

[00:45:28] [SPEAKER_02]: Go listen. You can go to recap kickback dot com.

[00:45:31] [SPEAKER_02]: Subscribe to wherever you listen to podcasts or even better.

[00:45:34] [SPEAKER_02]: You can go and watch us on YouTube.

[00:45:37] [SPEAKER_02]: Go to YouTube dot com slash at recap kickback.

[00:45:40] [SPEAKER_02]: We had so much fun this season.

[00:45:43] [SPEAKER_02]: We had two awesome guests and Latonya Starks and the war dog from Survivor.

[00:45:49] [SPEAKER_02]: And I mean.

[00:45:51] [SPEAKER_02]: I cannot overstate how fun it was to talk about one of my favorite shows,

[00:45:58] [SPEAKER_02]: one of my favorite properties.

[00:45:59] [SPEAKER_02]: I'm the I'm a book reader.

[00:46:01] [SPEAKER_02]: I love George R.R. Martin.

[00:46:02] [SPEAKER_02]: I love Game of Thrones.

[00:46:03] [SPEAKER_02]: I love House of the Dragons.

[00:46:04] [SPEAKER_02]: And to talk about it with Chappelle,

[00:46:07] [SPEAKER_02]: only the only the way that the two of us can talk about it

[00:46:09] [SPEAKER_02]: was just very, very fun.

[00:46:14] [SPEAKER_02]: Also, me and Matt Scott did a special

[00:46:16] [SPEAKER_02]: where we talked about summer slam.

[00:46:19] [SPEAKER_02]: We gave our summer slam review.

[00:46:23] [SPEAKER_02]: We came back just for a minute.

[00:46:25] [SPEAKER_02]: You know, Matt is out living his best life.

[00:46:29] [SPEAKER_02]: He's he stopped living his best life for two seconds to come podcast for me.

[00:46:33] [SPEAKER_02]: I pulled myself away from a newborn to talk about wrestling.

[00:46:38] [SPEAKER_02]: So just, you know, go and listen to it

[00:46:41] [SPEAKER_02]: because who knows when we're coming back again?

[00:46:44] [SPEAKER_02]: So go to YouTube dot com slash at

[00:46:48] [SPEAKER_02]: wrestling or have up as YouTube dot com slash at wrestling.

[00:46:51] [SPEAKER_02]: R.A.P. U.P.

[00:46:53] [SPEAKER_02]: So here are review about summer slam.

[00:46:57] [SPEAKER_02]: And of course, you can find me on Twitter at Mari Talks too much.

[00:47:01] [SPEAKER_02]: That's to like the number two where right now I'm talking all things.

[00:47:03] [SPEAKER_02]: Big Brother is Big Brother 26 season.

[00:47:06] [SPEAKER_02]: Big Brother 26 has been absolutely nuts.

[00:47:10] [SPEAKER_02]: And so I'm basically over there talking about that.

[00:47:14] [SPEAKER_02]: But I talk about some other stuff, too.

[00:47:16] [SPEAKER_02]: So follow me, Sarah.

[00:47:18] [SPEAKER_02]: What about you? What do you got going on?

[00:47:20] [SPEAKER_01]: Well, you can follow me at Sarah Carradine on all the things.

[00:47:24] [SPEAKER_01]: You can find me over on silent podcasts international.

[00:47:27] [SPEAKER_01]: I have the keys to the castle there.

[00:47:29] [SPEAKER_01]: I just wrapped up the Traders New Zealand season two

[00:47:32] [SPEAKER_01]: with the winner of Traders New Zealand season one.

[00:47:35] [SPEAKER_01]: And my coverage of Taskmaster Australia season two has also just finished.

[00:47:41] [SPEAKER_01]: Coming up, I'll be bringing you every look

[00:47:43] [SPEAKER_01]: in Ripple's Drag Race Global All Stars.

[00:47:48] [SPEAKER_01]: So find me over there for all of that.

[00:47:50] [SPEAKER_01]: And I'm joining the Date with Dateline podcast hosts

[00:47:53] [SPEAKER_01]: Kimberly and Katie on their live every week to cover claim to fame.

[00:47:58] [SPEAKER_01]: And this season is a banger.

[00:48:02] [SPEAKER_01]: What are we watching next week?

[00:48:04] [SPEAKER_01]: And we are due a good one, so it better be.

[00:48:08] [SPEAKER_02]: Yes, we are due next time on crime scene.

[00:48:11] [SPEAKER_02]: We're covering daughters with Latina Starks.

[00:48:13] [SPEAKER_02]: Watch it on Netflix starting on August 14th

[00:48:17] [SPEAKER_02]: and send us your comments and questions.

[00:48:20] [SPEAKER_01]: That should be good. I do have high hopes for that.

[00:48:24] [SPEAKER_01]: Thanks to Will from America for the theme music

[00:48:26] [SPEAKER_01]: and the whole RHAP team behind the scenes until next time.

[00:48:31] [SPEAKER_01]: Case closed.