Crime Seen | Episode 99: Me, Hereafter

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[00:02:02] Hey it's Rob it was about back week for survivor we did it Kelly now bandie and talked about it with me after the episode in this week on the B&D the Mess Magnets join Mike and Leana to talk all about survivor plus if Australian survivor is more of your thing.

[00:02:19] Shannon Gus has an interview with the executive producer of Australian survivor David Farster and over on nothing but Netflix Josh Wiggler joined

[00:02:28] Chappelle to talk about the three body problem last week and this week they're talking about the entire series with Christian Hubicki check it out all right here on RHAP we know reality TV.

[00:02:58] Hello everyone I'm Sarah Caradine podcasting from aora Sydney.

[00:03:11] I'm Marie fourth and this is Cronson the true crime review podcast will be get to the heart of our true crime stories are told you can get this fine program along with all the other fantastic reality TV content by subscribing to Rob has a website dot com slash

[00:03:27] slash RHAP's feed that's RHAP UPS feed.

[00:03:32] We'd love it if you were subscribed to our feed please go to Rob has a website dot com slash crime feed you'll get your true crime on Tuesdays if you already subscribe thank you very much last week we watched can I tell you a secret on Netflix with Matt Scott Sarah what did we watch this week?

[00:03:53] We watched me here after a four episode series from ABC News studios and we've covered several properties from them not seven but several death in the dorms which marry we both gave four magnifying glasses to

[00:04:09] we're with death which you gave 3.5 and I guess grace leader and I gave three killing county which I guess a generous and you marry go 4.5 and I gave five and pretty baby which I guess Shanta Frances gave four and you and I gave 3.5 to so we are coming to me here after

[00:04:29] with very high expectations I would say yeah I would see so

[00:04:36] and speaking of high expectations we are joined by one of our favorite guests making her fourth appearance one more and you get a mug it's Katie from a date with date line podcast hey Katie

[00:04:47] hello thank you for having me I was not aware of the mug I'm even more excited to be here now can't wait.

[00:04:54] It's an imaginary mug. I am I am excited to get an honorary mug which is not actually a mug just yes it meant that I've received it that's fine and fine with that.

[00:05:07] So Katie you join us for some fairly dark material it has to be said stolen youth which we all like very much but is a tough sit a death by fame and look into my eyes

[00:05:20] I think we all liked those all pretty well a death by fame now has a season 2 Murray I believe you've watched it.

[00:05:27] Yeah I've watched a few episodes and it's honestly just as good as the first the first season they still manage to find cases that I had never heard of

[00:05:37] that lumines happen in Hollywood to famous people I'm like how do you guys do this and they present in such a great way so

[00:05:45] I'm just curious to a death by fame and season 2.

[00:05:50] So let's get to me here after it's for episode series as I said each episode is a standalone case the filmmakers have made an intriguing choice to have the murder victim be the narrator voice by an actor of course

[00:06:07] in episode 1 she stole my baby indigenous woman Savannah Gray wind is kidnapped by her upstairs neighbor when eight months pregnant

[00:06:17] Brooke Cruz the neighbor performed a violence a zillion section to remove Savannah's baby Savannah Dunlid then Cruz and her boyfriend William Hane dumped Savannah's body in the red river

[00:06:31] Cruz the guilty to conspiracy to commit kidnapping conspiracy to commit murder and was convicted to life without parole and William was convicted of lying to the police which I she didn't know was a crime

[00:06:44] and kidnapping and was sentenced to 20 years through the efforts of her parents, no but and Joe and others Savannah's act was passed in North Dakota allowing transparency

[00:06:56] through state and tribal jurisdictions about actual numbers of missing and murdered indigenous women and girls and two spirit people

[00:07:06] in episode 2 a message a murder Monique bow is kidnapped and shot so that her killers can take her house key

[00:07:16] they then went to her mother's home to kill Monique's partner Momo he was shot several times but survived

[00:07:23] Envy over Momo's financial and creative success as a rapper motivated fellow rapper and previous collaborator LA Lyndon Wiggins to hire Cedric Barry and Barry Davis for the job

[00:07:35] as well as involving his partner and former parole officer Elsa Segura all four were convicted and sentenced to life in prison

[00:07:45] in episode three seen at the mall Keira Stagra is killed by her husband because she wanted to end their marriage he put her in the Mississippi River which Katie's podcast partner Kimberly has fallen into correct

[00:07:59] let me show him out Keira was trapped under the ice the trial of her husband Jeff Trevino went ahead despite there being no body

[00:08:08] the case looked very shaky but she was found in time for a conviction Trevino is currently serving 27 and a half years in prison

[00:08:17] and finally in episode four the funeral home murders better far priest Ryan Erickson shot and killed funeral director Dana Connell along with his intern Jimmy Ellison to prevent his secret being exposed

[00:08:32] and yes Erickson did officiate at their funerals with raw enforcement closing in Erickson hung himself publicly at the church honest to Sunday so everybody arriving could see him

[00:08:47] despite this there was a John Doe hearing in front of a judge to determine if there would have been enough evidence to convict Erickson the judge made a probable case finding saying Erickson's guilt was beyond a reasonable doubt a 10 out of 10 certainty

[00:09:02] I've never heard of this kind of hearing so I'm really looking forward to talking about that when we get to episode four

[00:09:07] but Katie why don't you start us off what were your thoughts overall and I'm particularly interested in what you thought about this device of having the victim be the narrator

[00:09:15] oh I don't know if I should be first because I wasn't sure how I felt about it honestly I was a little put off when it started I'm not sure why I've been really thinking about why it sort of bothered me

[00:09:30] it could be because it's too personal it could be because it adds a layer that I wasn't comfortable with that that's entirely possible

[00:09:39] it could also be that it clearly isn't that person's voice right and I think I'm also very aware of it being a voice over and so I don't know there was something about it that put me off a little bit

[00:09:51] I got used to it honestly by the end of the first episode but still there was something about it that I don't know why but I just don't think it's for me

[00:10:00] I don't know why I don't know I don't know I don't couldn't figure out what it was about it that it wasn't for me but it wasn't

[00:10:08] yeah I mean that's a very interesting thing to dive into Murray what did you think about that victim as narrator voiced by an actor and obviously written by writers who are not the victim

[00:10:18] yeah I agree with Katie like ID discovery tried this with another series I cannot remember the name of it but I remember it was from like a long time ago

[00:10:30] it's on the tip of my tongue I'm pretty sure some of our listeners are know what exactly what I'm talking about we just let us know

[00:10:39] but they've tried this before this device before where the victim is telling the story from their eyes and stuff like that

[00:10:47] and it's interesting it truly is I completely understand what Katie's saying it's like it's a level of close a manufactured level of closeness

[00:11:00] that I think is put will be polarizing I truly think you'll either like this story telling device or you won't

[00:11:09] I tried for it not to get in the way for me I think by the I think by the like middle episodes that correct me if I'm wrong let me know what you guys think

[00:11:25] but it felt like they kind of did less and less of it as the series went on so I think that was kind of good

[00:11:31] like they I think they did the intros like they did a lot of intros for the victims of like setting up the story

[00:11:37] I think they close out with the victim narration thing but I don't think it's as throughout as probably like that first episode

[00:11:46] I really felt like they had us they they were overdoing it with Savannah so I don't know what do you guys think about that?

[00:11:55] I must say I was looking forward to this series as the listeners now we liked the other ABC News studios properties very much

[00:12:05] if it hadn't been ABC News studios the premise alone would have made me not watch it

[00:12:14] Wow I did not like the idea of it because unless you're reading writings of the person

[00:12:23] unless you have video diaries unless you are super careful to involve the families

[00:12:32] and say please read this does this sound like her voice each of us has such a distinct idiot-lect not just the way we speak but the manner

[00:12:43] and the use of words is so intrinsic to ourselves that I was concerned on the other hand I come from theatre background, theatre and opera background

[00:12:55] so I loved the theatricality of it I loved the beginning gave me chills where Savannah was talking about being nailed into her makeshift coffin

[00:13:06] and I liked Kira under the ice

[00:13:10] I think it was the most effective in the first episode because the actor playing Savannah did the least acting

[00:13:23] she just spoke and it felt to me like it was very heartfelt it felt it didn't feel inauthentic

[00:13:30] I found the other three not their fault they're given this job who knows what information they have who knows what the directors are telling them

[00:13:38] I found the other three there was just a little bit too much acting going on

[00:13:44] you know voice acting is very very different from other things other types of acting

[00:13:51] but I also found episode one to be the best for me episode

[00:13:56] so it may be that I've folded in my opinion of the narrator into how much I liked this episode, liked as the wrong word I was very moved and very sad

[00:14:09] sort of moving on a little bit to how the episodes go it was very quiet and it was very simple

[00:14:17] and we spoke to her parents, we spoke to a least sergeant who he never said it but we know is haunted this day

[00:14:26] that he walked past her body three times and didn't find her, that he walked past her maybe three times and didn't find her

[00:14:33] I thought this is like hell of Sam Bulman he could have also been called and his quietness and his thoughtfulness I thought were very appreciated

[00:14:43] so I liked that they do use some news footage that's a little bit of a shock because you get that news sound

[00:14:51] and it all gets a bit but there was so little of it in this one I really liked that some Mary aside from the narration

[00:14:59] what were your thoughts on episode one?

[00:15:02] I did like that they focused a lot on the missing Indigenous women

[00:15:10] I think that making that a point was really good because sometimes stuff like that can be glossed over

[00:15:20] this episode was fascinating to me because I'm like how you really be like how do y'all think y'all gonna get away with this?

[00:15:28] straight up went downstairs, asked her to come and follow you upstairs and she don't go back to her family

[00:15:35] why do you think that you're gonna get away with that?

[00:15:38] but then the fact that they kinda got away with it for three searches was astounding to me so it was very interesting

[00:15:47] it was a case I didn't know I mean stolen baby cases are literally I feel like there's so many I've heard of it so sad

[00:15:57] but I thought this was done with like delicate care I liked hearing from her family

[00:16:05] I think her family is what really drove this home hearing from them hearing how this affected them

[00:16:12] but also the spirit to keep going because they had her daughter we saw her daughter at the end

[00:16:22] it was you know it was very touching and very moving I don't think it was my favorite episode but I thought it was a great starting point

[00:16:32] Katie we always say here criminals be stupid please they strongly suspected but had nothing that they being the police

[00:16:43] and then William is seen going to Walmart the murderers shop and buying newborn nappies

[00:16:53] I mean I like procedures this wasn't heavy on the procedure but they led you through say well we looked at tapes

[00:16:59] we saw him go to Walmart we found out what he bought

[00:17:03] what did you think about this very strange plan that they had I mean they say they couldn't believe the baby didn't cry

[00:17:11] as the police broke down the door finally in the second in the third raid

[00:17:16] I think also myself as and I'm guessing a lot of other people who are watching it are filled with dread at the fact that the baby isn't making noise

[00:17:26] why isn't the baby making noise I was very very scared

[00:17:32] yeah I think what's happening here is not so much let the criminals the criminals are dumb but they mentioned it briefly that they had some issues surrounding addiction

[00:17:44] and I think that that's what we're seeing here fully because the plan is bananas the plan to go downstairs and do this that

[00:17:56] it took a little bit of planning but really they just kind of got lucky

[00:18:00] it wasn't manned well at all and she's two weeks past her due date at the time that they've decided to go ahead and go through with this

[00:18:07] also sorry the unfairness here of William of the boyfriend who's just sitting on the bed every time they come into search

[00:18:16] number one that's so suspicious right in the same spot twice I would have been like get up

[00:18:23] and if that officer not asking his name and then immediately running to see if he has any outstanding warrants

[00:18:29] because that's a real quick way to get him up right there forget four searches in right then first one you're running his name and saying can I check your ID

[00:18:37] did you have a warrant and he has a history of all to miss so

[00:18:42] yeah immediately there's some questions the first search right just with his name so I'm

[00:18:49] going to use it on the other side and then I'll just say, this is very this was this was a little bit frustrating for me but the family is amazing in this that

[00:18:58] and oh it made me so angry the fact that broken William used the dad. Yes.

[00:19:04] She used her close relationship with her father Savannah's relationship with him to be like he was knocking on the door they tried to

[00:19:11] shift the blame that way and I just oh that makes me upset and I don't know I thought the dad was a wonderful interview of the whole thing.

[00:19:20] Yes I wrote down you know Brook Crews weaponizing police against a brown man saying she was fearful of him saying she was frightened

[00:19:31] and then saying if you keep coming back which he did as why wouldn't he because no burden knew exactly what had happened right down to the removal of the baby.

[00:19:40] Oh she did yes you and she said if you come back I'm calling the police and Jo even very calmly saying well I knew what that meant I knew if the police came there would be an arrest and it wouldn't be her.

[00:19:56] Yeah. Oh my gosh this couple sorry.

[00:20:02] You're very frustrating because like they even thought that they were going to like raise that baby like opposite.

[00:20:10] Like right that family is right there that family is right below you y'all are in this all little house is not an apartment complex it is literally a house divided into into units.

[00:20:23] And you thought you were going to really completely raise a whole baby and nobody would be suspicious like come on man.

[00:20:34] Not having been pregnant right we're done the fake pregnancy.

[00:20:40] Oh my god I thought that they were perhaps going to do a midnight flash and I thought well Savannah is in the chest of drawers are they going to get a you haul and move and just say oh we're moving because.

[00:20:52] We're moving because we feel in you know we don't feel safe living above this violent indigenous man.

[00:21:00] That's them that is not me but I thought oh that's how they're going to so the baby's something this what I thought I thought the baby if alive.

[00:21:10] But is somewhere else and they are going to say that they're moving and then I'm going to go and but what was their plan.

[00:21:20] They didn't have a plan and yet she managed to get that baby out safely having with the box cutter.

[00:21:28] Oh that's a miracle that baby was supposed to be on this earth.

[00:21:33] So girl is very special and I hope that she's told that every day and I'm sure she is because seems like she's got a family that's really pulling for her which is good.

[00:21:43] She was so you know she was so you know.

[00:21:46] And Savannah's law of course comes from this so I don't ever like to say I'll also say something good came of it but something good didn't come of it.

[00:21:57] The better thing would be that this hadn't happened and you wouldn't need that law.

[00:22:02] Here they do bring in the broader societal aspects which I liked and we've complained before Mario about documentaries that only tell the story.

[00:22:11] They're not heavy handed but they are placing it very much in a historical and societal context which I like very much.

[00:22:21] And not knowing anything about this entire series I actually thought that the whole series was going to be about missing indigenous women.

[00:22:28] That's what I thought the entire episode was going to be about and I was like oh okay this is great then I was very surprised when we get to episode two.

[00:22:35] I was like oh wait actually no not at all so these are just for very different stories is sort of well we're okay.

[00:22:43] That seems to be ABC studios like they're they're bad they find four cases they put them under a general theme and presentation.

[00:22:53] And package them like this yeah so.

[00:22:56] Okay I'm pretty good job there we go all right I like.

[00:23:00] Well let's move on to a message a murder and the killing of Monique bow mother to two girls.

[00:23:09] Getting her real estate chops and she's lured to a house showing in order to get an item killed for the key.

[00:23:19] Mary what did you think about this episode?

[00:23:21] This was this this was my favorite episode mostly very yeah the case was so twisty and tiny I had no idea where it was going.

[00:23:33] I mean again and then Monique Monique's passing was incredibly sad again like I don't like the narration portion but I do like how I feel like it is enhancing me knowing the victim even if it's in authentic.

[00:23:53] I mean like it's in authentic because none of not much of this is in their words you know I'm saying but I still I still felt for her I felt for her in those moments in those last moments and stuff like that.

[00:24:07] And her mom oh my god her mom just being so heartbroken once she hears about her daughter but just this like freaking like action movie style.

[00:24:21] I don't even know how the police would have come to this how they came to this conclusion like I do because they walked us through it which is great and I do love the procedural aspect but it was mind blowing to me I didn't see I didn't see it how it was how it was ending you know I'm saying like I thought it was very very interesting.

[00:24:40] Yes, wander her mother was incredibly impressive just what a woman what she went through again she's now you know she now has grandchildren to raise and right at the end mark such to who's a police sergeant in Minneapolis pretty straightforward love police officer you know pretty stern but telling a story.

[00:25:03] And at the end he's almost in tears and he says I would never have done this show but want to ask me to and just that little glimpse that you get into these odd relationships that happen strangely and this way between a police officer and the mother of a murder girl and he was the one that told her and he was the one that held her after she heard the news it was.

[00:25:30] I didn't really pick that up and then to have him didn't finish on him but he was right at the end talking about his admiration for wander Katie how did this episode strike you.

[00:25:41] It was also the one that I yeah again hate to say enjoyed but I really this story really got me and I don't I'm not sure I don't know if it was the voice over aspect as much as this was.

[00:25:57] It was first of all and they're all unfair all murder is unfair this was unnecessary they they go over that at the end but this oh my goodness and also.

[00:26:10] The kidnapping aspect to this it was fascinating that there's a there's several crimes happening here and then they kept showing the nails there was something about that it was so personal that the press on nails kept falling off and then at the end.

[00:26:26] You see her and obviously she took such good care of her hand that's something that you're doing because you're speaking with your hands and she's got this new career going it feels like I know that person like oh I know that sort of.

[00:26:40] You know I'm switching to this new career and i'm going to I'm going to make it I'm going to do well and then and so she's she's put together and then they do that duct tape with the role at the end of the roll that gorilla tape around her hands and.

[00:26:55] That was also what got them the fingerprints that thing but it felt like.

[00:27:01] I don't know it was like insulting for them to do that to this thing that she had tried to make beautiful there was something about it that like god all the levels right I almost felt like she was leaving bread crumbs almost and yeah she was smart she's what you want.

[00:27:19] You know what I hope that I would have the where with all to do which I don't know if I would but she seemed like she was right.

[00:27:25] And then you have time like the five o'clock like okay i thought this out in the time for my babies.

[00:27:32] Was it legacy and legend is that yeah which i.

[00:27:36] Yeah that's adorable yeah.

[00:27:40] Yeah they said they figured that she was she was kidnapped around three o'clock.

[00:27:46] But the second the tempted murder didn't happen until closer to six like between five thirty and six and her mother thought that like she held out for at least two hours on on giving them her key because all they wanted from her was her key to get into that into the house so that they could they could kill Momo.

[00:28:09] And she held out for two hours we don't know what she endured because she knew that if they went at a certain time which was about which was around five thirty that her girls would be asleep and that hopefully they would be able to be out of harms way which is just like.

[00:28:28] And they were yeah and they were yep now that that took me that just completely took me out of it I was I was definitely done after after hearing all that and it just shows the strength that she had yeah.

[00:28:44] And then just to be dispatched the way she was over a stupid silly rap beef between rappers that nobody knows about nobody knows these rappers there they're not even the level Momo we see Momo on here.

[00:29:03] You know it was it was nice to hear from her from her partner he really did seem to like really miss her and all that and I can't imagine the type of guilt that he's living through but like all of this because of jealousy over people's rap careers and it's just it's just annoying it's such righteous indignation that her life ended over something so petty and stupid.

[00:29:29] And that she didn't need to be involved in it at all right like exactly what he says at the end that you know where I want to take me out in front of a club yeah you gotta get the door now like it's not like.

[00:29:41] Right you know what car I drive you know where I am you know i'm gonna be at the club you know all my movements because it was someone that you.

[00:29:49] Yeah why did that happen then why do we think that that happened that that.

[00:29:54] I don't know why my guess would be that the Lindin Wiggins the rapper LA who hired these two guys I think he hired two guys that he didn't realize how.

[00:30:09] Bloodthirsty and vicious they were you know i'm saying like I mean I don't know you know I don't I don't think he went in there being like kill anybody you have to to kill the one guy I want you to kill.

[00:30:20] But I think he hired two guys who had they had really long rap sheets I believe but I think he just he just hired two people who thought that they were.

[00:30:30] The smartest criminals who didn't care who got into their way they they used um Lindin Wiggins girlfriend a former parole officer like girl you.

[00:30:42] My god oh well you're in jail now I'll say so yeah like I honestly think I just honestly think he.

[00:30:50] Tired the wrong the wrong people and they just did not care they didn't care who they were gonna.

[00:30:55] Get through to and they were just very bloodthirsty but again procedurally i mean this guerrilla tape i'm a guerrilla tape takes your skin off so even if someone was to live it's a very violent thing to do to someone.

[00:31:09] But very Davis does his murder shop at walnut.

[00:31:12] Oh well what well well you know but there's so many cameras at Walmart figure it out there's cameras everywhere at Walmart you're never getting out of there I hoodie does not protect you i'm so sorry it's just not enough you need an umbrella.

[00:31:29] They had to umbrella they like spaked her house out because they knew where her cameras were too like I really think they did this because they thought they were in some stupid movie be quite honest.

[00:31:40] And they didn't even get the right person that I guarantee you whatever the money the payment was it wasn't for her it was for him.

[00:31:49] In a live you the live guys my gosh oh yes look i agree it certainly was a very close second for me to the first episode I think these first two were the most effective I think for me the stories were.

[00:32:06] Immediately engaging the photographs of these of these two young women very moving to see them like never light up a room but they were both you know they were both live and so full of.

[00:32:20] Of ideas about their their lives that children their partners love family I think both of them had that that theme going through yeah.

[00:32:32] Katie I didn't quite consciously think that it was going to be about missing and murdered indigenous women girls and to spirit people but I think I did.

[00:32:41] And so when it was money I thought oh it's not but it's about you women on the brink of their life.

[00:32:49] And being that as well.

[00:32:51] I thought that it that I was also.

[00:32:53] And then we get to hear a say girl what is this was a cute look I liked her speaking from under the eyes

[00:33:01] and the image of it was very claustrophobic this actor probably directed to be so there was just so much acting going on it really took I felt for me it was the most in authentic.

[00:33:15] narration Katie what did you think about seen at the mall the story of curious taker trying to leave her.

[00:33:22] Her husband this was the closest to a deadline episode yes I would say so this is a story that i'm really I'm really sad story but I'm.

[00:33:30] Sadly really familiar with it because it's the most dangerous time for a woman so when she's leaving her partner I mean it's really this happens and it's.

[00:33:42] Awful this one I thought we were going to get a twist that we did not get.

[00:33:47] Okay I think yeah they set it up like he thought they're gonna be a twist yeah yeah um.

[00:33:54] This was really sad they also I don't know this was the hard I think because i'm familiar with this story unfortunately this was the hardest the most difficult for me to engage with.

[00:34:06] This story and especially coming on the heels of Monique which I was very very invested in I was trying but it.

[00:34:12] Which is sad because all all of this is sad this is she did not deserve to be killed by any means but for some reason this one felt a little different.

[00:34:21] Yeah for me for instance I zoomed through one into like one into I watched back to back.

[00:34:29] Started three and I was like okay i'll come back to this or I think I fell asleep and then it took me a few times to get through episode three.

[00:34:38] And you will straight up with the listeners y'all will not hear me talking about episode four because I did it I did not watch it so like.

[00:34:49] So like um this one just like just like Katie said is like at first I was like okay so it might be something like oh it might you know it might be different than what we thought it was like no it was definitely the husband it's always the husband but not just that what I realized.

[00:35:06] Maybe I realized I don't know if I realized if it like halfway through or whatever but she did not have the same she her family did not show up for her like Savannah and Monique's did.

[00:35:18] She just had her sister and her sister I feel like her sister wasn't wasn't there from the beginning I don't know Sarah would know more than I would it truly felt to me that her sister came in was introduced like midway through and I think because her sister unfortunately is just so young.

[00:35:37] It you know it was it I don't want to say it wasn't impactful but we literally had all of Savannah's family her mother her dad like.

[00:35:46] Same with Monique one each mother like it her husband's husband's husband's women come on those women were yes amazing and so like yeah this is probably where I think we got to know the victim the least almost in a sense oh yeah.

[00:36:03] So it yeah what it just wasn't as engaging but definitely like Katie said this was the procedural this was the step by step.

[00:36:12] Definitely I mean they all have their step by steps but this one felt very heavy had it with the step by step and this was the only one where I was like this feels long.

[00:36:21] Yes yes and I just thought after the intense engagement of the first two for me so what I was trying to figure out a theme I was trying to feel engaged that's a very insightful my no family I mean we do have her sister no other family.

[00:36:39] Speaking for her not even the lover of you know of of Kara all murders are stupid and wrong and sad now.

[00:36:50] But I wonder why you would put the might of the ABC new studios who we know can produce really nuanced really exquisite really engaging work I don't know why that is on this case so I kept thinking.

[00:37:06] The boy downstairs who said he didn't hear anything is there going to be some kind of coercion of him by the old man who looked up to so that was all set up they met through gaming he was much younger he looked up to the killer.

[00:37:23] And no he didn't have any to do that and didn't hear anything and that was nothing so I sort of felt a little blue balls about it.

[00:37:29] I have one idea. I think that maybe that the power of ABC whatever they figured that actually the item in this case that is the most fascinating was that her being under the ice in a body of water that is not the body of water where other evidence is presenting like that that part of the story to me was very was engaging and really fascinating like oh and then she's found it's not easy to do that.

[00:38:00] And then having her be in that area so close to where the prosecutors office is it was the prosecutors of the Texas office that her body could have been just you know yards away that sort of idea I think seems maybe more impactful than it actually ended up being compared to these other two stories unfortunately.

[00:38:21] Does that make sense? Yeah and the body bigger and the body not like being found like midway through the trial or something like that as well.

[00:38:29] Oh yeah that was intense yeah that yeah and then I mean for me I thought all of the footage was very what I found very interesting like basically because every move was on on footage I found that very interesting.

[00:38:47] And the pistachios pistachios aluminum all for the wind pistachios for the wind I did like that I felt it belonged thematically and tonally in a different series because there's a question about what when did she die and they got the chef from the restaurant to make the meal that she had eaten.

[00:39:10] What is this on it? Grandpa stashios they're in her stomach they know she died that night so I liked all of that wasn't that the cases are interesting it's just I struggled to place it.

[00:39:22] As I say thematically internally in this series it was too much smoke and mirrors I think it was too much smoke and mirrors to kind of stretch it out that whole the whole segment about oh could this have been a serial killer with all these young women have gone missing around the same time.

[00:39:38] They're all around the same age and then 10 minutes later nope it wasn't this is what happened to each one of those women.

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[00:42:04] So let's go to the funeral home murders this one

[00:42:10] ah totally different totally different all of them.

[00:42:15] I knew it was the priest straight away so I thought oh okay what's the twist the twist is that

[00:42:20] it's not the priest and they dragged it out that it was the you know like and then they dump this

[00:42:26] Oh it's the priest and I said yes I know I knew the minute you mentioned him that it was the priest we know

[00:42:34] and so I think they the time division for me Katie wasn't as it should have been there was a lot of

[00:42:41] time on just getting to the moment that it was the priest rather than delving into okay it was the

[00:42:48] priest now let's look at the fact that there was an investigation on him by the church when he

[00:42:53] was in the seminary and the church investigated its own and said there was no wrong doing wherever we

[00:42:58] heard that a million times before the bravery of Thomas the there was a whole lot of material there

[00:43:04] that I don't know sort of the balance was wrong agree then when he kills himself so publicly it's

[00:43:12] like well can we talk about that that the parishioners are going to arrive to this church for mass

[00:43:17] life today he displayed himself in an attempt to be in control even of the the ending of his life and

[00:43:27] no assist I don't sorry I'm not going to die no it's not a pretty rough yeah um so and again you

[00:43:35] know I wrote down police interviewed 2,000 people except for father Ryan Frickan Erickson I bloody knew

[00:43:45] so Katie what did you think overall about this episode I sometimes go down rabbit holes

[00:43:52] with things and interestingly I just rewatched the movie spotlight last week so with this came up

[00:44:01] I was like oh okay I'm on it and then um I watched another oh I watched another documentary called

[00:44:09] I believe it's called Deliverus from Evil and yes yeah I just sort of go down that one I remember watching

[00:44:17] that as a kid it's intense yes it's from like um it's from at least like 15 years ago maybe two

[00:44:26] it's not new yeah I'll put these in the show no it's side recommendation spotlight and

[00:44:31] temperate and the I would just say I could not agree more with the time with the time issue that

[00:44:39] you had the stuff that but also then I I felt like I was being a little biased to be honest because

[00:44:45] I am very current on this issue right now because this is the I am just out of this rabbit hole

[00:44:51] so I think I was I was like yes we know all this but I did think I did think we could have had a few

[00:44:58] more victim or survivor however you want to refer to yourself impact I think that there are other

[00:45:04] stories here regarding this priest and so we could have very very quickly gotten to the fact that

[00:45:09] we know it's him I think you're totally right we could have very quickly gone to that and then

[00:45:15] a hundred percent at the end spend more time interviewing parishioners that go to that church

[00:45:21] what that impact was like with the display yeah but I don't I don't know it was

[00:45:28] I do understand though we did get some time with Dan O'Connell's family and then

[00:45:35] I don't feel like we got to know James Ellison hardly at all lost in the shuffle that would that

[00:45:42] that was my other critique it's like Dan Dan Dan oh and James of course oh and James

[00:45:48] yeah that is not fair that's like the OJ that's like Nicole Chess and then we just forget

[00:45:52] that something else was there that's not right oh yes when Sarah said I was I had played it I had

[00:46:00] I had I had tried to rewatching it and Sarah was like you don't have to watch it was like great because

[00:46:07] yeah it feels like ABC new studios you know for all of the praises that we've given it

[00:46:16] has done this remember Sarah I believe we thought Web of Death

[00:46:22] um was like had two or three stories that were really good and then like two that that weren't

[00:46:29] definitely dorms I know for a fact that we liked we liked three or four yeah one week yes

[00:46:36] just make the good ones the thing that the thing that's fascinating for me about the case were

[00:46:42] a couple of things one is something that we all know the police hold back certain details about

[00:46:48] the murder from the the press so that if somebody knows those details they are probably the murderer

[00:46:55] and that's one of the ways that like once they had him in there they had to get him in their

[00:46:58] science and once they did the blindness of not interviewing him when they interviewed two thousand other

[00:47:05] people someone who's in that funeral home every five minutes is astonishing yeah but the very

[00:47:11] interesting thing for me was this John Doe hearing do you know about this Katie Murray? Do I've

[00:47:17] never heard of this before essentially trying someone who's dead yeah that was very it

[00:47:24] that's very interesting I've never heard of that that's for the victims families I'm assuming

[00:47:29] it's for the victims families and so that the case is closed because when a suspect dies

[00:47:37] without being convicted and the police were completely convinced it was them police can be wrong

[00:47:43] we know they can't investigate the case anymore because they they feel and believe that they have

[00:47:50] the correct person but that case is always open because there's no yes this person was found guilty

[00:47:57] and was said to have done it so I thought this was very creative and flexible for the American

[00:48:04] Justice system to come up with this I mean I'm assuming it's just this state I don't know that

[00:48:10] I don't know that it's closed but yeah I've never it might be just that state but I'm I'm now

[00:48:17] and had I been a good guest I would have googled how many other states I'm not sure but it is the

[00:48:24] first time it's come across my purview I didn't know that this was the thing at all yeah so something

[00:48:31] that did some research on yeah and then sorry you mentioned what was the other thing that you

[00:48:35] mentioned there was interest the holding with holding of information about the murder why couldn't

[00:48:42] they sorry they did not arrest him at that point though no why that's not enough you've done

[00:48:49] that and he's given you information that he shouldn't know click click and arrested and we

[00:48:56] see the interrogation and they say to him how do you think it happened where do you think people

[00:49:01] were and he didn't say I don't know how would I know he said well I imagine and then he just

[00:49:08] crunted it's like God wasn't God does not like Ryan Erickson telling you that he left a note asking

[00:49:15] for masses to be said for his soul's rest I don't know no oh my god but Ryan Erickson does and

[00:49:23] there's no rest there is no rest for him I don't think they did it either I bet you they didn't do

[00:49:28] no one did it I had I did have a flesh it was so interesting how there are things that you know

[00:49:36] but you don't know you know if you follow and when I was a young teen young and mid teen girl where my

[00:49:45] house was in the suburbs several houses along and sort of stretching in an L behind our house

[00:49:51] was a retreat for Catholic priests and that was what I knew about it it was a retreat for Catholic

[00:49:57] priests and I'm a tree and now I think suddenly watching this I thought oh I know what that place

[00:50:05] was oh that was the naughty priest house that's where they said naughty priests to wait until they're

[00:50:12] reassigned to a different oh my it's the naughty corner go and think about what you did and then

[00:50:20] we're reassigned you elsewhere amazing I'm convinced now I have to do research on that as well

[00:50:25] so let's get to our ratings Katie what do you give the series overall or individual episodes

[00:50:30] you can write it as you like oh this is so hard for me um what I'm gonna give the first two

[00:50:40] four easily uh-huh because the first two up just they're very different than the second two but

[00:50:49] the second two I'm giving like a two or two point five so I don't know what that averages I

[00:50:56] was a theater major so math not for me not for me at all um but I think also I would have

[00:51:04] liked to have been contacted about these voiceovers because that this was this seemed like a very

[00:51:11] like heartfelt gig but I also wonder if the people that did the voiceovers were able to talk

[00:51:16] to the families because I would have been insisted on it yeah insisted just a little bit of

[00:51:22] writing in the voicing I couldn't agree I could not agree more so we're gonna say four four to

[00:51:28] an half to an half I think we can divide it like that because I think we all have to have

[00:51:32] to say a similar feeling married what's what's your magnifying glass situation on this series I

[00:51:39] could I completely agree with those things I like I hate when I'm like yeah we all get the same

[00:51:44] thing but honestly both of those those first two fours I wouldn't give them I wouldn't give them five

[00:51:50] just because again the the mechanism it's kind of wonky but those two carried the mechanism that

[00:51:59] that they chose the last two didn't the last two was not enhanced by the mechanism they chose

[00:52:06] and the last two felt clunky in comparison so I'll average it out for the whole series and just say

[00:52:14] yes I love anish I'm gonna say the first two for me were 4.5 and would have been five if it had not

[00:52:25] been for the narration I think I found the narration of the first two less troublesome than the

[00:52:32] two of you did but the narration in the second pair was overbearing actorish inauthentic

[00:52:41] and I was annoyed at it so you know right but it seems like such a distinct difference you know as

[00:52:50] I've as I've said I think the calm calmness of that first one was so moving that the filmmakers were

[00:53:00] just letting us sit with her family and the intensity of our distress in the second one was

[00:53:11] beautifully managed I didn't feel manipulated I felt a righteous anger and along with

[00:53:17] wanderer and her family and the second two I thought yeah sure all right so I'm going to I'm not

[00:53:25] gonna average it I'm gonna say 4.5 4.5 2 2 yeah they really it's so it's so amazing how in the

[00:53:34] first two it really feels like they let the story play out while in the last two it felt like

[00:53:40] they tried to really throw in some twist throwing some look over here look over there you know

[00:53:48] very interesting yes it was simplicity from the earlier ones that was missing in the second two

[00:53:55] there's nothing wrong with just focusing on the same kind of story because we were engaged in

[00:54:00] the first two so you don't have to vary it wildly you know now we're gonna have this kind of a case

[00:54:07] and this kind of a case no stick with these with these cases because we're interested and work

[00:54:12] here and we're engaged and instead it's like well we need to do very very different things for all

[00:54:17] four don't think don't think you need to do that yeah at all so I if you've got this far without

[00:54:24] watching the shows I think you can say that all our recommendations would be to watch the first

[00:54:30] and second episode and decide that it is a two-episode limited series yeah

[00:54:37] Bingo

[00:54:39] Katie what do you have to recommend to our listeners what have you been reading watching or listening to

[00:54:43] that you've enjoyed lately well we just did a book club for a date with Dayline and we did it

[00:54:49] on lay them to rest which is a book by Laura Norton who also hosts the podcast the fall line

[00:54:56] it's a great book if you haven't picked it up or read it she did a fantastic job so I would

[00:55:00] definitely recommend that and also if you haven't seen Spotlight it's a fictional retelling of a

[00:55:06] very true thing that happened in the Boston Globes coverage of the Catholic Church in the early

[00:55:12] 2000s but it's a fascinating movie and it will take you on a rabbit hole so if you're interested in

[00:55:18] that topic there's some knowledge out there for you if there's some stuff terrific

[00:55:25] Mari what do you have to recommend I'm pretty sure I've recommended it before but I don't care

[00:55:31] because it's on a new platform and it's more watchable girls five ever is on Netflix I don't care

[00:55:39] I know I've recommended it before but not a lot of people have peacock at the time and they got

[00:55:43] canceled after season two but now they're back for season three on Netflix it is my it is like

[00:55:49] my go-to like silly when I need a break from all of this it is my go-to silly show I absolutely

[00:55:57] love it it's so funny and now it's on Netflix which is more widely available to our listeners I know

[00:56:04] I know I know y'all got at least a Netflix account so I'm recommending it again so yeah

[00:56:13] well I'm excited because production has begun on season six of the UK reality competition show

[00:56:20] glow up so you don't know it makeup artist compete in various challenges there's no monetary prize

[00:56:28] because it's English I British I should say but the winner gets a contract to assist a leading

[00:56:34] MUA at the end of the competition along the way there is episode by episode prizes so you might

[00:56:41] do makeup for an image in Rolling Stone or assist the makeup artist on an episode of the crown

[00:56:47] or have your prosthetics creature featured in Doctor Who which is pretty that's pretty great

[00:56:53] that's pretty great so watch all five previous seasons on Netflix ding dong darling ding dong

[00:57:03] I wait I have one more thing I forgot to add if you are a Sherlock fan Sherlock has been

[00:57:08] gone off of streaming for quite some time I'm talking about the one with Martin Freeman and Benedict

[00:57:12] Cumberbatch just got re-released back to Hulu oh I just rewatched that like in January okay so just

[00:57:19] so case I just saw it I was like so it's here I watch it on something else I'm in a different country

[00:57:25] and since we're kind of piling on our recommendations we talked about this off pod but

[00:57:31] some of the international versions of traders is now available on peacock Sarah has been telling us

[00:57:39] about her side hustling of talking about all the international iterations of traders that I could

[00:57:45] never watch because I didn't have access to them now I have access and now I can go back and

[00:57:50] listen to Sarah so survivor survivor traders New Zealand traders Australia season two

[00:57:58] traders UK season two now available on peacock is traders the new survivor though

[00:58:06] it's hard survivor is that survivor is a staple for our reality TV community and we feel like

[00:58:14] nothing can replace survivors so it's its own little lane it's its own little niche okay good to know

[00:58:22] I mean the interesting thing is that you get people on traders who would never in a million years

[00:58:26] want to or be cast on survivor because it's a social strategy without the suffering just emotional

[00:58:33] suffering yeah at crime scene we're not interested in your emotional suffering we are you get

[00:58:40] to hear your feedback and suggestions for future episodes you can follow crime scene on twitter

[00:58:46] at crime scene RHAP that's S E E N or email us at crime scene RHAP at gmail.com

[00:58:54] we're also on tiktok at crime.scene and all other social media at crime scene podcast

[00:59:02] and please remember to subscribe to our feed by going to RHAP has a website.com slash crime feed

[00:59:08] it makes a big difference sure does so Katie what do you have going on and where can the people find you

[00:59:16] oh same old same old I just kidding I can't really and I can both be found at date with

[00:59:23] date line on twitter and on instagram and we're just recapping this has been a very exciting season

[00:59:32] of date line specifically and we also have crime con coming up which is our big convention where

[00:59:38] hopefully date line will be in attendance and we'll get to you know meet and greet with the

[00:59:42] hosts would be lovely so that's all we have going on thank you for having me by the way love being here

[00:59:48] it was crime scene no all in snuck crime scene what's a cool crime called no all in square

[00:59:53] Kimberly fill in the river I think oh it definitely was it was one moment she was there

[01:00:01] wanting to somehow touch the Mississippi River and the next moment I look up and she's

[01:00:07] in the water fully immersed um I don't know what happened it was bizarre it was just she just

[01:00:14] slid right in like she was supposed to be there the water was calling to her it was terrifying but

[01:00:21] also hysteric wasn't near that like memorial area near cafe Dumont yes yes we're the little

[01:00:27] slope is yep yes and all the rocks we have when we went when we did rjp norlands um all of the

[01:00:36] podcasters took a picture in front of there and I was in there like there is no guardrail here

[01:00:41] like no you're on the Mississippi you're going in and there's stuff in that water

[01:00:47] and then she were she insisted that we continue on our ghost tour without changing she's like no I'm

[01:00:54] fine and I'm like no you're not this is my crows be all right my crows I know I was like bacteria

[01:01:01] these clothes need to be burned I don't want them in the room like we're bagging them and in the

[01:01:06] trash can we're done you're like no I think I can wash it I threw it out absolutely not oh no

[01:01:14] and sometime ago maria and I were on Rebecca Levois side hustle other people's problems

[01:01:20] especially in case you and Kimberly are going to be on or have been oh we have been on and we

[01:01:25] have also been on together against each other yes were you both against each other yes

[01:01:33] oh well nearly nearly ended in divorce I have to say never did it is it out is that episode out

[01:01:43] yes oh I'm going to listen to that I didn't it didn't it's so much I love that what a smart um show

[01:01:53] that is I tell her every time I'm like it's so fun it's such an interesting idea and they're so

[01:01:57] funny yes and marie what about you where can the people find you well of course every week me and

[01:02:04] Matt Scott talk about the highlights of the week in wrestling we are so close to WrestleMania

[01:02:12] WrestleMania is less than a week away and we are so excited so if you want to follow us we're

[01:02:19] going to try and do some vlogging and stuff while we're while we're down there you can go to the

[01:02:24] our new youtube page go to youtube.com slash act wrestling or half up that's youtube.com slash

[01:02:31] at wrestling r.a.p. you pee and we've been having just phenomenal guests on so you don't even

[01:02:38] got to watch wrestling you just got to listen to me and Matt be fun with our guests it's amazing

[01:02:43] of course also on the recap kickback me and shepel are wrapping up we wrapped up bracket season

[01:02:50] we did a two-parter on um the best uh uh black tv show theme songs via bracket so that was very

[01:02:58] very fun we then did we then covered uh freak nick um a documentary on hulu which was really good

[01:03:07] if you liked our coverage with shepel of woodstock 99 I think you'll really love me and shepel

[01:03:16] and our guest tie talking about the freak nick the party the party that was never told I want to

[01:03:22] say that's the subtitle I don't know why they give all these documentaries subtitles um but

[01:03:28] it's on hulu it's just a documentary really good and we had a great discussion about it so

[01:03:36] you can go to recapkickback.com in order to subscribe you can also follow shepel over on at recap kickback

[01:03:43] on twitter and then you can also go to the recap kickback youtube page youtube.com slash at recap kickback

[01:03:51] we had so so much fun and I really really think our listeners will really love the coverage of

[01:03:57] freak nick so uh please go and check that out what about you Sarah? well you can follow me if you'd

[01:04:03] like to do that at Sarah Caridin on all the things over on silent podcasts I wrapped up my coverage

[01:04:09] of Australian survivor titans versus rebels with a vibes only season overview with shepel

[01:04:17] we had a great time over there and your Aussie queens Annabelle Fiddler and I are covering season two

[01:04:22] of alone australia started on wednesday night it's fantastic it takes web season one left off

[01:04:31] jumps ten pastes ahead and starts there it's extraordinary our guest for the episode covering

[01:04:35] the season premiere was original titan in porta and this week our guest is original rebel

[01:04:41] ilin Chong Naomi calhoun and I are covering season 17 of task master uk our chat about episode one

[01:04:50] is in your feed right now and i wasn't going to announce it but seeing as we've been talking about

[01:04:55] it i will be covering letrata kebe qua the traders Quebec with the winner of the traders

[01:05:05] euseland so look out for that and watch traders news eland before these episode drop because then

[01:05:11] otherwise you'll be spoiled next time on crime scene it is our one hundredth episode woo woo

[01:05:21] woo marie what are we covering for this milestone next week we are covering crime scene berlin

[01:05:29] the nightlife killer with latina starcks we watched the previous properties crime scene the

[01:05:34] Cecil hotel and crime scene time square so this one is hotly anticipated you can watch it on

[01:05:41] Netflix subs or dubs no dubshamey here no dubshamey here and finish your yep send us your comments and

[01:05:47] questions thanks so much to kady from a date with dateline podcast for joining us well from

[01:05:53] america with the theme music and the whole rhp team behind the scenes until next time case

[01:06:00] safe close when green

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