Crime Seen | Episode 96: The Truth About Jim

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[00:02:43] Hello everyone, I'm Sarah Carodyne, podcasting from aora Sydney.

[00:03:05] I'm Marie Forth and this is crime scene. The true crime review podcast where we get to the

[00:03:10] heart of our true crime stories are told. You can get this program along with all the other

[00:03:15] fantastic reality TV content by subscribing to robhezzlewebsite.com slash rehab ups feed.

[00:03:22] That's R-H-A-P-U-P-S feed. We would love it if you were subscribed

[00:03:28] to our feed as well. Please go to robhezzlewebsite.com slash crime feed.

[00:03:33] You'll get your true crime on Tuesdays. If you've already subscribed, thank you very much.

[00:03:38] Last week we watched as we speak rap music on trial with Sheepel.

[00:03:43] But Sarah, what did we watch this week? We watched the truth about Jim on Max and we can't

[00:03:51] get to the truth without our guest. He helped us find killer Sally in episode 37.

[00:03:57] It's duck lover and all-round good guy. Oh, my Zahia, hey, Omar, how are you?

[00:04:02] Hello, thank you for having me to talk about more true crime, my original passion.

[00:04:07] So I love to be before survivor even. Well, I guess not a personal passion project.

[00:04:13] I was about to say that. Yeah. But more of a viewing experience. I told you the story about how my

[00:04:20] parents America's most wanted was our family show which was a bad idea for children

[00:04:28] that would then be very scared at night. But, no, exactly same here. My family didn't watch it but

[00:04:34] I was so afraid of America's most wanted. I always thought they were just around the corner to get me.

[00:04:41] And they really weren't. They really were. None of us have been got, I mean, I got the

[00:04:47] closest. I was the one that was Hunter by serial killer. So you know, they did get me.

[00:04:55] Our listeners have heard it. I can tell you off the roll. Okay, sounds crazy.

[00:05:00] Yes. Good, good question. Yeah. It's why I don't hitchhike anymore. Right. Oh, okay. Gotcha.

[00:05:09] Haven't hitchhiked since 1980 but was a hitchhiking enthusiast in the 70s. We all were.

[00:05:15] We all just hitchhiked all the time. Really? That very different time. Well, it's so funny because

[00:05:22] I thought I was definitely watching this. I was like, this is crazy. Who just gets in cars as

[00:05:27] strangers, you know, as we order our ubers and our lifts today. Yeah, but there you can track that.

[00:05:33] You can track. Yes. Yes. So we wanted to cover this documentary particularly because it was

[00:05:41] produced and directed by Sky Borgman. And we previously covered her documentaries here on crime scene.

[00:05:47] We watched Girl in the Picture and thought it was a dark story well told but we had a lot of

[00:05:52] questions about the tone. Marie and I gave it three magnifying glasses and our guest, Latonya

[00:05:58] gave it 3.5. We also covered, I just killed my dad which we said was worth watching but left us

[00:06:04] wanting more. We also had questions about the structure but conceded that that might have been due

[00:06:10] to restrictions put on her by Netflix. Our guest, Serity Buntingen, I rated it three magnifying

[00:06:16] glasses and Marie 3.5. Sky Borgman has also directed Sins of our mother,

[00:06:23] Dead asleep and of Dr. Dimplane's site among others which we have seen but not covered here.

[00:06:30] I think she picks fascinating dark stories with a strong family focus. We don't doubt her skills

[00:06:36] but there are always questions about tone, approach, format. Marie is it fair to say we have a

[00:06:42] complex relationship with this director? Oh that is very fair to say. I think for some reason

[00:06:52] for me her properties either are like really good or really just me, like I just really like

[00:06:59] I either really like it or I'm really just like I did not really appreciate that so

[00:07:04] but you know her body of work speaks for itself those are a lot of true conduct you

[00:07:11] docky series that people all know like a lot of those are ones that people know so I mean

[00:07:17] she's making a name for herself in this genre and you know if it might be hit or miss but I think

[00:07:25] she at least understands her audience at this point. Yeah true I'm ready to have seen any of

[00:07:32] her previous work before the truth about you? Yeah I feel like the two of you are like fine

[00:07:38] dining critics when it comes to when it comes to true crime and I'm rolling out with my McDonald's

[00:07:44] because I never know who is making what movies I have no idea I just watch them and so when you

[00:07:52] told me who what movies that she directed you know they're pretty good like I really liked

[00:07:57] abducting them plain sight I thought that was wild like I know we're not meant to be judgmental

[00:08:05] sometimes but like some of those decisions I have no words or they were just so stupid

[00:08:13] but nevertheless like how do you get abducted twice I'm so sorry not not the kid like the parents

[00:08:18] how did they let that happen twice but nevertheless I've enjoyed all the ones that I've watched

[00:08:24] that she's made and now I know that they're all from the same person. Yes I mean I will certainly

[00:08:30] watch probably you know continue to watch everything she makes. Yeah we'll get into more of our

[00:08:40] no questions around her work as we talk about the truth about Jim but before we start we'd like

[00:08:47] to let you know that the film and our discussion deal in part with sexual assault if that's not for

[00:08:52] you today we will see you next time and here are some resources which we'll link to in our show notes.

[00:08:59] In the US you can call the National Sexual Assault Hotline by calling 1-800-656-4673 or you can go to

[00:09:09] rain.org that's R-A-I-N-N-N-D-O-RG. I'm in Canada you can go to ending violence Canada.org and they

[00:09:19] have resources for different groups of people and in different provinces and nationally as well.

[00:09:26] And in Australia you can seek support for sexual assault, family and domestic violence at 1-800-respect

[00:09:33] that's 1-800-737-732 or go to 1-800-respect.org.au

[00:09:44] And so let's get a brief rundown of the crime. Sierra Bard had always heard stories about her

[00:09:50] step grandfather Jim Mordekai, his malevolent presence and violence towards his wives,

[00:09:57] his children and his stepchildren and students at the school at which he taught. Intimidation,

[00:10:03] threats, attempted sexual assault and sexual assault and rape especially of young girls between 12

[00:10:10] and 19. 10 years after his death Sierra investigates Jim and this documentary follows her for two

[00:10:18] years as she talks to family members and reaches out to Jim's other victims. While Jim's assaults

[00:10:25] are documented she begins to question whether he escalated to murder and spoiler alert we do not find

[00:10:31] out either way but it's definitely not the zodiac. Right? Come on. That was a reach. That was a

[00:10:42] reach. Before we dive into gritty and nitty details what was your thoughts overall on this four-part

[00:10:51] documentary series? So I thought it was pretty good because it was kind of, it was kind of covered

[00:10:58] in a different way than I'm used to I would say like usually it's very chronological but this one

[00:11:03] they kind of went it was like an investigator you really went into the investigative approach for

[00:11:08] the granddaughter which I thought was very cool and she would go to different various family members

[00:11:12] a new part of the story would unfold with every and that were kind of interconnected through the

[00:11:18] story. And then I liked how they focused initially on like the based on the types of crimes or

[00:11:25] the investigation into which serial killer he may be in like almost like chapters throughout the

[00:11:31] I thought that made it very easy to follow and then I did like that they brought a kind of full

[00:11:35] circle with the little family reunion at the end showing that there's some closure and healing

[00:11:40] through that process because sometimes we end at on the note of the perpetrator as opposed to

[00:11:48] the victims and this way it's a little bit more empowering I thought. Yeah this is very much a

[00:11:53] signature of Sky Bourbon's work or sort of family in repair documents certainly at the end of

[00:12:01] both of the documentaries that we covered and others there is this almost coda of the family

[00:12:10] coming back together or quickly or otherwise in this case it seemed very very much happily.

[00:12:16] Mary what were your overall thoughts? My overall thoughts four episodes too long. I felt like this was

[00:12:27] like two different documentaries put together sprinkled with some wild speculation about the

[00:12:32] zodiac killer that did not need to be in there. So like for me, totally as we talk about Sky Bourbon's

[00:12:41] work I'm like I really kind of wish she picked like fully picked the lane for this because

[00:12:48] there are so many things there are so many things that I think this could have been that could have

[00:12:52] made this a great documentary instead of just a long and very drawn out and ultimately like

[00:12:59] not a satisfying documentary for me. I did enjoy Sierra being the narrator

[00:13:08] the family portion and the reason why I say two documentaries is I feel like that the family

[00:13:14] healing portion of the documentary was great the investigation into the Santa Rosa hitchhiker

[00:13:22] murders portion was great both of them together in a long format then again it felt like filler

[00:13:30] with the zodiac stuff I was like we don't need all of this so those were my thoughts.

[00:13:37] Maybe you guys can change my mind a little bit Sarah how about you?

[00:13:40] You're over that. I don't know if I'm going to be able to change your mind at one point

[00:13:46] I thought we don't need to see everybody hugging every time they get out of cars get into cars get

[00:13:51] into and then I thought well this is the family in repair portion and this is where she's really strong

[00:14:00] so I agree with you one or other of those topics needed to be leaned into you could do the family

[00:14:07] in repair you can mention the Santa Rosa hitchhiker murders and what connection she feels

[00:14:14] Jim has to it without us getting the full rundown of every victim. The documentary could have

[00:14:20] acknowledged the victims without going into what they were wearing where they were found driving

[00:14:27] along looking at where they were found unless you do a two part do a two part family in repair

[00:14:35] Santa Rosa a hitchhiker murders. I think the zodiac section which is an entire episode

[00:14:44] is so ill placed I was thinking while I was watching it will do you mention that she thought

[00:14:50] briefly that her step-grandfather was the zodiac killer but don't even do that because for a start

[00:14:57] if he was we would have heard about it so there's no tension because it would have been all over

[00:15:03] the news no it's not Arthur Lee Allen it's Jim Mordekuy and I mean one thing that was interesting

[00:15:11] was the specialist Mike Butterfield certainly poured cold water very gently very gently onto her

[00:15:21] and he did make a comment that I was thinking myself when she said well Jim looks exactly like

[00:15:25] the identikit as someone who was alive and conscious in the 70s all men looked like that all white

[00:15:32] men looked like that in the 90s and one point Mike Butterfield says that no yeah absolutely

[00:15:40] so I didn't mind her thinking that he had gone into you know escalated to murder but if you're

[00:15:49] going to say that why did he stop? Why was it just the eight murdered girls in Santa Rosa and he

[00:15:56] stopped so that felt unfinished we have DNA that's gone to the DNA people but that's unfinished

[00:16:05] Mary. Yes I want to point out it and it's not even an escalation because remember the eight

[00:16:12] murders the eight the eight hitchhiker murders happened before before Jim became her mom's step

[00:16:23] father in all of this so it's technically a de-escalation like you said because the the hitchhiker

[00:16:32] murders were in 71 and 72 and they specifically pointed out that was when Jim was getting divorced

[00:16:39] from his first wife so that was before he met the second wife before the rapes of his stepdaughter

[00:16:46] and probably most of them from the school as we know it like from all the ones that all the victims

[00:16:53] from the school that happened previous so that was one thing where I was like

[00:16:59] like it's it's not escalation at this point it's technically de-escalation so it's like

[00:17:05] is is that possible to go from the eight hitchhiker murders to just kind of like just going back

[00:17:13] to just like a serial rapist like how often do you go from murder serial rapist murderer to just

[00:17:19] serial rapist so and then and then even further if we're saying oh he's the zodiac go further

[00:17:30] back because those zodiac killers were in the in the next the late 60s and saying he was a couple

[00:17:35] murderer didn't didn't down to it just doesn't it that logically didn't make sense now the Santa

[00:17:43] Rosa murders honestly there's a little smoke there I was very interested in that investigation

[00:17:52] but again once you said like you said it was unresolved the DNA we didn't we didn't get any results

[00:17:59] by the end of this so that it kind of fizzles up here yeah and I think the question isn't asked

[00:18:05] the question is us do you think do you see error think that he was this hitchhiker murderer

[00:18:12] but the real question is do you I don't want to say do you want him to be but it's like this idea that

[00:18:20] and I this I do not lay this at Sierra or the family's feet but it's almost like

[00:18:25] the violence and abuse towards his wives the controlling of his children and stepchildren isn't enough

[00:18:35] and then the attempted sexual assaults aren't enough and then the serial rapes aren't enough so he has to be

[00:18:41] the worst person possible by being a murderer by being a zodiac killer he's a man oh my yeah I mean

[00:18:51] that's like I wonder psychologically if the worst he is the easier it is for them to forgive each other

[00:18:57] for the things that have happened whereas if he you know I think yeah the worst of a guy he is

[00:19:02] the more understandable and is it for her to be an ended by her mom and stuff like that so I think

[00:19:07] that that could play a role but you know I feel like I watched like a goldfish because I didn't

[00:19:12] realize the dates but that makes a lot of sense about like the de-escalation component unless he

[00:19:17] found the power he was seeking in some of these more internal relationships where he could control

[00:19:23] them like longer term but that being said it is weird and the whole yeah I think the zodiac thing

[00:19:30] could have definitely been left out as a casual viewer you know obviously that grabs people's attention

[00:19:37] and you know makes them more focused but then also the effect it had was more so like doubting

[00:19:42] everything else that they put forth as opposed to lending credence to what they were already presenting

[00:19:48] so I don't know I feel like to me I was kind of convinced that he was probably the

[00:19:55] Santa Rosa murder but the de-escalation doesn't necessarily fit but I don't know why they haven't

[00:20:00] had DNA results yet that doesn't make any sense to me maybe you can enlighten the American system for me

[00:20:06] I mean well okay so the American system does take a long time to process DNA but from what I

[00:20:14] understand they want the private route they want the private route of DNA so normally the private

[00:20:20] route is way faster than the public route because the public route or the route that's normally

[00:20:25] governed by the government is backed up backlog we all know about the backlogs and all that so

[00:20:32] but I would assume since it's private they I don't even think they talked about that but

[00:20:38] clearly this is a private company that they're they're paying out of there they paid out of their

[00:20:43] pocket to have that done I thought it would have come back sooner and again technically that did

[00:20:50] come back quickly they did get the profile on him pretty quickly now it's just the police in there

[00:20:58] yeah so maybe that's it but honestly yeah that was my impression was that thing for the

[00:21:04] police three months with with a good profile of Jim they've handed over to law enforcement now

[00:21:13] law enforcement has to assign someone to this cold case they have to locate the DNA that they have

[00:21:22] that is not tested they have to get that tested then they have to compare so just because we've

[00:21:28] got Jim's DNA we need now the DNA from Seaman found on two of the Hitchhiker victims there's a

[00:21:38] little there's a slight problem also with the Hitchhiker murders a slight problem apart from

[00:21:45] murdering young women and this is not in the documentary and I thought all sky I know

[00:21:53] Sierra's the narrator but you are allowed to show her as an unreliable narrator I think the

[00:21:59] once she wandered off to the zodiac I kind of lost my trust in her right and I don't like that

[00:22:05] because I was trusting her to take me through the story but at the time of one of the Hitchhiker

[00:22:10] murders Jim was getting married to his second wife at the time that she was abducted

[00:22:18] so well they're one of the ones that were kind of like iffy like the one that they never know

[00:22:22] it's one of the iffy ones so the other thing that law enforcement does if they've got a group of

[00:22:29] dead people dead women particularly dead women of color is if they can group them all together and

[00:22:36] say that's one person it takes the pressure off the fact that it could be one two six people

[00:22:43] doing it so it's not out of the question that the Santa Rosa Hitchhiker let's see we need a

[00:22:48] documentary on the Santa Rosa Hitchhiker murders yeah because it is an interesting case and I would

[00:22:54] like to know like where is the evidence that it's the same person yeah yeah let's move on to the

[00:23:05] talking heads I'm a who struck you most who were you interested in hearing from amongst you know

[00:23:12] a whole lot of family and I have to say the family tree on the murder board was very useful

[00:23:17] yeah who who did you like following I think that um I think it was her name was Shannon the daughter

[00:23:24] yeah um yeah which is the mother of Sierra was probably the most compelling interesting

[00:23:29] character because she was kind of the center piece of a lot of um like she was seem like the center

[00:23:35] part of the web in terms of reaching out to all these other people that had problems or things

[00:23:39] she had witnessed and she was the primary um I want to say pro-tagnist because she was the one

[00:23:46] against the antagonist here yeah um and being the most vocal as a child really and being the

[00:23:53] one to say something's not right and not being listened to so and then you know there's the generational

[00:23:58] trauma and she's in the center of you know between her mother and granddaughter which is kind of

[00:24:02] bookends of this sort of um docu-series so I thought that she was and she's you know very personable

[00:24:09] and very charismatic and so it was good to follow her I thought yeah Shannon was badass she truly truly

[00:24:16] was and to kind of you know almost feel like she wasn't listened to as a kid but for her to be

[00:24:24] strong enough to protect her daughter I mean it is quite quite amazing because you know we've seen

[00:24:32] how that the effects of that cycle abuse can continue and Shannon specifically made it a point

[00:24:39] to break that cycle going so far as to be a strange from the mother that she said she was very

[00:24:46] close to before Jim came into the picture so um I did like Shannon I did I honestly liked all

[00:24:55] of the family I liked all of all of the daughters uh Jamie Melissa honestly I thought again I

[00:25:03] thought the family portions were very strong that first episode was very strong breaking down

[00:25:09] the family tree and and getting to know people and then you know then uncovering the dark sides of it

[00:25:14] which was really sad but they were all there like speaking their truth and you know even um the

[00:25:23] mother the grandmother um Judy Judy yes Judy I mean we're staring at a woman who's made a lot of

[00:25:33] mistakes and who now understands that she's made a lot of mistakes and the fact that she put herself

[00:25:40] out here to take that responsibility and to try to make things right while taking accountability

[00:25:48] and really like being like I messed up you know was amazing and then not even to like

[00:25:57] bring into the fact that she herself was being abused you know what I'm saying like she was being

[00:26:01] abused so it wasn't all just I'm gonna pick this man over my my kid it's I've chosen this man

[00:26:07] I don't know how to get away from him kind of you know type of thing like a abuse victim and she

[00:26:13] never made excuses and it's just so funny that this documentary like kind of parallels um what was

[00:26:21] it Sarah great yes great great fun her lovely life yes another granddaughter investigating her

[00:26:27] grandfather exactly like stunning and completely completely faultless it's so funny it's just

[00:26:36] exactly incredible documentary yes I know and that one was in my mind as I'm watching this

[00:26:41] one too and the parallels are so just it's literally the complete opposite of like the investigation

[00:26:52] investigation portion of grateful love of life was handled so much better but then the family

[00:26:59] portion was really lacking because her family members were in like her mom was in complete denial

[00:27:06] about what her grandfather had done to her sister so it was like lots of family tension to the point

[00:27:14] where by the end of the documentary they weren't talking anymore yeah this documentary the family is

[00:27:20] healed the family portion is amazing and then investigative work left a like kind of like a bad

[00:27:26] taste in your mouth so at least when it comes to the zodiac part um so and to some extent the

[00:27:32] hitchhiker murders I think yeah it just proportionally the proportions weren't correct we either need

[00:27:40] less hitchhiker or more hitchhiker Mary what did you think of Shannon putting a message on the

[00:27:47] school because Shannon was a student of Jim Shannon just to catch everybody up Shannon is Judy's daughter

[00:27:55] and Judy married Jim was his third wife and Shannon is Sierra's mother so Shannon in 2021 put a message

[00:28:06] on a school alumni Facebook saying I mean it was quite tactful we see the post it's quite tactful

[00:28:16] but basically it's saying if if Jim if Jim assaulted you and you want to talk about it please

[00:28:24] this is a safe space and the overwhelming tsunami of bad comments Mary say how dare you and he's

[00:28:34] dead it never happened to me so it didn't happen I didn't see it so it didn't happen what did you

[00:28:40] think of that it was very brief and I was so fascinated by it I kind of wanted a bit more

[00:28:46] I truly was like and this is why this is why that that these things never come to an end this is

[00:28:53] why he got away with it for so long and I thought it was a perfect peak outside of the bubble right

[00:28:59] because we're hearing from the family we're hearing all of these horrible things that he did and how

[00:29:05] he's such a horrible monster and I believe every minute about them so a minute that they're saying

[00:29:11] so I'm like how is this man just walking around his daily life being a monster and nobody sees it

[00:29:17] and then she puts up this post and then she gets these responses and everybody like he was a great guy

[00:29:22] why would you do this and then you realize like oh yeah like this is this is the reality like

[00:29:29] these monsters move among us and you don't know it because people are blind to it or they say

[00:29:36] it didn't happen to me so I don't think it happened you know that I thought was very fascinating

[00:29:41] because of that like it showed you that he did have a strong hold on that community in a way that

[00:29:50] you know you didn't know before I would say it highlighted it more like you said because like

[00:29:58] this is this thing that happens all the time if people want to say something then they get punished

[00:30:02] for it or talk down upon and people have a tendency not to believe other people's experiences when

[00:30:08] it's like it's so egotistical for people to be like I should if something bad were happening I

[00:30:12] should know and we see that all the time and also we've seen that on survivor you know

[00:30:17] styling of the idols like we literally saw that conversation happen and so I think that

[00:30:23] highlighting that more for people to see on such a wide scale level will also hopefully

[00:30:28] allow people who are more impressionable to think twice before they are acts so ignorantly

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[00:33:02] the most fun ever at chamba casino.com yes I mean Jim retires in a verticals from his teaching career

[00:33:16] long teaching career to do landscaping there's no party there's no farewell so the young woman who

[00:33:24] goes to complain about him one of his students goes to complain about him to the administration

[00:33:29] and they basically said oh good now we've got something that we can do something with they knew who he

[00:33:34] was. They knew who he was and he was asked to resign call the police. Call the police don't just move

[00:33:46] them on we see this with the scout masters we see this with the priests we see this with the teachers

[00:33:51] you just move them on the pastors move them on because people think it's eki and it is eki but

[00:33:58] it's also evil and illegal so do something about it. I mean Sierra does she comes she's hair she's

[00:34:06] been sexually assaulted twice once as a young woman by a teacher and she went to the administration

[00:34:12] about it and she was asked what she did to bring it on herself and she is a young woman I'm not

[00:34:18] talking about my generation where I don't think we even told on people and then when she is

[00:34:26] sexually assaulted again in her in her 20s she doesn't even go to the police because of this

[00:34:33] because of what you were saying Mary about their response to the Facebook page. This is the material

[00:34:38] that Sky Bournemont is so good at and so I was thinking about like who who is this for what are we

[00:34:46] learning. I think for me the biggest takeaway is talk you know open the window put sunlight onto

[00:34:54] these secrets take people's power away by speaking. Plus how difficult it is and I the more that

[00:35:03] the documentary went on this doesn't leave it aside the zodiac. The more the other three episodes

[00:35:08] went on the more I thought could we lens in and this is where great photo-lovely life was so successful

[00:35:14] is it narrowed its focus but became about such a broader thing. Yeah I totally agree. I think that

[00:35:25] the thing that take away from this documentary other than that specifics of this actual case are

[00:35:29] more the broader perspective on how we should be treating victims and treating people that

[00:35:35] make allegations because at the end of the day the rate of false reporting is very very low compared to

[00:35:41] true reporting and the consequences of obviously if somebody's falsely accused there's a lot of

[00:35:47] consequences but there's a lot of consequences a lot more consequences to not believing somebody

[00:35:53] and the ripple effect it has on their life and their family's lives and if there were a better

[00:35:58] method for investigating and taking things seriously without villainizing the person that brings it

[00:36:03] forward then we would get to the bottom line more quickly across the board and it'll be better for

[00:36:09] everybody. Yep as we discuss when we covered victim suspect. Oh I'm very few missed that that was

[00:36:18] young women bringing forward sexual assault allegations and the policeman saying well we don't

[00:36:24] believe you and not only do we not believe you we're not going to investigate the crime and not

[00:36:29] only that we are now going to charge you with making a false report. Yeah we need some reform of

[00:36:36] the system. Very very very much. Okay we have an awful tease of the box of single earrings I think

[00:36:46] any true crime person you find a box of single earrings you know exactly what it is. Marie

[00:36:54] do you think that Shannon knew what it was or had a feeling about what it was? No no I think I think

[00:37:04] what she said when she said like they were cleaning out his stuff and they were just they wanted

[00:37:09] it out. He was gone he was out of their lives they no longer had to fear for their lives

[00:37:16] and they just wanted all traces of him him gone you know I'm saying like and then we because we don't

[00:37:22] know that was he died 10 years ago you know I'm saying like we don't know when they started to

[00:37:26] to think about oh maybe he's a killer you know I'm saying so like she she probably remembered it

[00:37:34] after like oh we you know but that was the huge oh my god talk about a tease I was like oh this

[00:37:43] this whole documentary is just a lesson on edging it was horrendous.

[00:37:48] True crime edging like I just I'm not that that made me so mad. I almost think no don't tell me

[00:37:57] that. I'm when they went to the storage unit did you think that would be revealed I mean they kept

[00:38:03] other things they kept his clippers with hair. Yeah I just I felt like I had a bad feeling it was

[00:38:12] the documentary was just going to end in it being a negative because I felt like we would have

[00:38:16] heard something about this man if it was positive so I guess it still could be him because they

[00:38:20] haven't revealed it but during studying for my boards I listened or watched a lot of evil lives here

[00:38:27] on Discovery Plus because it was very easy to have on in the background half pay attention

[00:38:33] half understand and also study at the same time and this jewelry box with other women's jewelry

[00:38:40] in it was like a common feature of many of these like friends so what happens all the time

[00:38:45] so I thought that was the biggest one of the biggest smoking guns in this case but to be fair it could

[00:38:52] still be from an assault and not necessarily a murder but I feel like it was very suspicious.

[00:38:59] Yeah and she remembers it as single earrings but was it I mean we know that time and memory like

[00:39:07] human memory is really bad everybody. I witness this a bad human memory is bad

[00:39:13] this is why we need some facts which is again why I go back to the the family healing journey

[00:39:20] journey being the stronger part of the documentary. One part that again I thought was like very

[00:39:28] interesting was when they talked to the lady who was with the first two suspects sorry the first

[00:39:36] two victims that went missing when she had interviewed the lady at the ice skating rink who's at

[00:39:42] the ice skating rink. That I thought was very interesting because like it kind of came out of nowhere

[00:39:50] and not only do I feel like me as a viewer was like oh snap like was kind of like a shocked but

[00:39:57] you could tell Sierra too was like wait what like it did feel like stumbling on to like a new piece

[00:40:05] of evidence right there in front of the camera because they're talking to this woman and this woman

[00:40:10] is like Mary. Yeah I was Mary yes I'm trying to thank you Mary was talking about the disappearance

[00:40:16] of the first two victims were like two 13 year old girls and she's talking about how she was

[00:40:23] there that day and she might have been the last person to talk to them because they come to the

[00:40:27] rink they're like hey we're gonna go smoke some pot with this dude and and she's like oh what guy

[00:40:32] and and they like over there and she goes and she sees like his side profile and she realizes like

[00:40:38] he's not our age and she and she tells him like no you know have fun because she said maybe if

[00:40:44] he was our age I would have but something told me not to and then she starts saying things that

[00:40:50] like this is before I don't know what they told her to get her on the camera at first but she didn't

[00:40:56] know from what we know she didn't know about Sierra's grandfather or anything like that so she goes

[00:41:02] to say like oh he has short black hair he kind of looks like a teacher you know um he had this

[00:41:09] gene jacket on she goes to describe him and then Sierra's like okay well I think it might have

[00:41:14] been my grandfather and then she has pictures of them and the look on Mary's face when she sees

[00:41:21] these pictures are it's very like like arresting because she just kind of like herself kind of

[00:41:31] like freezes up and is kind of like that looks a lot like him and then you could slowly see her like

[00:41:40] kind of like putting the puzzle pieces together and then she starts to like cry it was I was like

[00:41:46] oh god like that was a very compelling portion well but you know what made me off you know

[00:41:53] Stephen Avery heard of him Stephen Avery was in prison for rape and the first I actually heard

[00:42:03] of this case was on a radio lab story about eyewitnesses is before making a murder it came out

[00:42:12] and this woman tells a horrific story of her rape and she talks about during it she thought well I

[00:42:22] um either gonna die or I'm not gonna die and if I don't die I want to be able to identify

[00:42:31] this man and he didn't have a mask it didn't have anything like that and so she's staring at his

[00:42:36] face and imprinting it on her brain she picks Stephen Avery out of a lineup she feels sick she wants

[00:42:44] to throw up as soon as she sees Stephen Avery Stephen Avery is convicted he's in jail later another man

[00:42:53] is found to have done the rape it wasn't Stephen Avery and when she looks at this man

[00:43:01] she hasn't ever seen him before it is him it is the correct person but even in that state so when

[00:43:09] Mary looked at the photograph of Jim 50 years after having seen the man go off with her friends

[00:43:19] and I cannot emphasize enough how much all men looked alike in the seventies that's true

[00:43:25] they truly did the hornyam glasses although it but glasses of the library frame the short hair

[00:43:32] there was a conventionality amongst sort of middle class white people uh particularly

[00:43:37] professionals so I'm not saying that Mary didn't have a response and I'm not saying Jim's not

[00:43:43] the person but we no that's a good point yeah um I think that things that made me think he did it where

[00:43:54] the um well the jewelry box was suspicious but I think the thing that was most the two things that

[00:44:01] were the most concerning were the obsession with hog tying and ditch throwing because that is

[00:44:07] just on its own like maybe that's a weird thing but like he would tie his children up and stuff

[00:44:12] like that and that's weird and then the account of I think his name was Michael the son getting

[00:44:19] taken around to Michael yeah Michael you would point out like that's where um that girl died

[00:44:25] I think that that's weird and I think that those two things together are very suspicious to me

[00:44:31] or it could be a man with a very messed up evil mind yes enjoying stories of the hitchhiker

[00:44:40] murder fantasizing that he would like to do that as well it's yeah I needed I needed one thing

[00:44:49] all the other if it hasn't been clear I needed one thing all the other I'm are anything else before

[00:44:55] we were right no I thought I mean I thought it was I guess I want to know if everybody like

[00:45:01] if you had to choose do you think you did it or not very good question and I would say for me yes

[00:45:08] for me no for me yes does that a Rosa one yeah why not

[00:45:17] look if law enforcement does at some point in the years to come get around back to this cold case

[00:45:25] check the DNA and it's June some people would say what's the point he's dead but the

[00:45:32] the the it's not closure the information for the families is very important

[00:45:40] Sarah did say one thing that put my back up she said these forgotten girls and I thought

[00:45:45] yeah no they're the same age as me I think they have families who remember them

[00:45:52] but I understood what she meant forgotten by history forgotten by law enforcement perhaps

[00:45:58] mm-hmm wait law enforcement for getting about dead women I'm shocked

[00:46:04] they were white Omar so

[00:46:09] they weren't that forgotten yeah they were hitchhiking they were asking for it that's true

[00:46:14] that's true and they were wearing denim the devil's fabric yes so Omar how many magnifying glasses

[00:46:22] are you going to write the truth about Jim out of a possible five out of five I will give

[00:46:27] it I will give it a three and a half because like you said there was a bit of extra stuff that

[00:46:34] was unnecessary but I do find in my new adulthood ADHD brain it is hard for me to focus on things

[00:46:41] and I was able to focus on this one pretty I yeah pretty well great and marry how many magnifying

[00:46:47] glasses for this docu series I changed my mind three because there was no answer at the end

[00:46:57] that bothered me least that was the least of the things that I would critique about it

[00:47:02] I don't mind unsolved married doesn't like unsolved I don't like unsolved especially when it

[00:47:06] kind of feels like you're you're gearing me up for it to be solved the truth about Jim yeah

[00:47:13] I was definitely wavering between a 2.5 and a three um because to me a three is like like Omar said

[00:47:22] throw it in the background keep it push it but I am that zodiac off off ramp that they

[00:47:31] it took really infuriating me I was very upset about it I was like we are literally just here wasting

[00:47:37] time because it is not there was not a plausible single explanation as to how he could be the zodiac

[00:47:46] and you could tell from jump so I was like so you are literally wasting 40 minutes 30 to 40 minutes

[00:47:56] of this whole property and you have the audacity for it to be four episodes like I can't do that

[00:48:04] so the worst the worst part of that was the boat ride where she was trying to

[00:48:09] oh no that was not even know that it was that lake yeah that was crazy oh my god that was so

[00:48:16] like that's something you can do but don't spend seven minutes of the documentary driving around on a

[00:48:21] boat I was so mad so 2.5 just like I want I want to excuse that part but I just can't because why

[00:48:32] like why oh my god I hated that part so much I'm a fan of this documentary filmmaker

[00:48:42] I will go to back work I love her themes something about her makes people talk to her or talk to

[00:48:51] each other in front of her like she gets I'm in the most amazing access to her talking heads

[00:48:57] she's some kind of magician illusionist where they will speak so frankly so freely and that is her

[00:49:08] strength her interest in you know shining light on truth bringing silence into voice is so admirable

[00:49:19] most of all of her documentaries I like I like most of all of them uh none of them are perfect

[00:49:25] when we got to the zodiac I was so mad I I love my stomach dropped and I thought right no this is

[00:49:40] a zero stars I talked myself back I think there's enough in it that's good there's enough in it

[00:49:46] that's important uh this is going to be my lowest ranking of a sky ballman documentary that we've

[00:49:52] discussed Murray I'm with you it's a two and a half it's a two screener which is

[00:49:59] an absolute sin I shouldn't be able to pick up my phone during a let us say prestige true crime

[00:50:08] documentary from HBO from sky ballman I shouldn't be able to to pick up my phone and I could and that's

[00:50:17] that's very disappointing I'm not going to say don't watch it it's not a no recommend it's like

[00:50:24] absolutely watch it you you can easily skip chapter three that's the zodiac there's nothing

[00:50:30] there's nothing there for anybody uh there's enough there in the other three episodes I would say

[00:50:37] do watch it yeah I think one and two are the strongest ten oh 100% absolutely and I wonder if if

[00:50:44] this wasn't sky ballman I wouldn't have gone in with such high expectations that I wouldn't be so

[00:50:49] disappointed so you know that's not hurtful that's mine yeah you need that McDonald's review style

[00:50:55] you know sure and there's nothing wrong with that yes so I'm a do you have anything to recommend to

[00:51:02] our listeners what have you been watching listening to or reading that has caught your eye recently

[00:51:08] um I wish I read but I don't I who had the time right I have actually been enjoying

[00:51:15] dealing no deal island surprise I never thought that was possible I thought it would be dumb as hell

[00:51:23] but it's actually pretty entertaining so I just watched the first episode over the weekend I was like

[00:51:28] okay I did it except the thing that bothers me is it doesn't make any sense with like when at the end

[00:51:36] when they're doing the cases like you should actually want some of the bigger cases out so you

[00:51:41] get the higher deal you know what I mean like it's about proportions hmm the optimal scenario is

[00:51:47] actually getting like five low cases in one high case or something like that because then you'll

[00:51:52] probably make a good deal really yeah see that and and that's where that show kind of loses me because

[00:51:59] I'm like I was not the biggest fan of deal or no deal like I remember watching it like periodically

[00:52:07] but I was just like I like the the interpersonal relationships go figure a survivor fan like

[00:52:14] the interpersonal relationships of them on the island yes once they get to the deal no deal portion

[00:52:20] it kind of feels like the episode kind of screeches to a halt yeah um but it does get interesting when

[00:52:25] you I do like when it's like oh this person either goes home or they send somebody else home

[00:52:30] so that I do kind of like that that's the stakes it's not just whatever the deal is so yeah

[00:52:37] yes you know I you know I was just heckin' episode to see how I know it's up to three

[00:52:43] it's playing on your phone and watch the show I did you know we love that

[00:52:47] I haven't watched it I probably won't but I'm listening to our friends over on hit a quiz

[00:52:54] uh who are talking about it and that is how I am just hearing it

[00:52:58] on the history they're hitting it because Jenny and Shappell are covering the whole season so including

[00:53:04] exits yeah oh yeah and Mary what about you what do you have to recommend to our listeners

[00:53:11] so I have to recommend a much shorter documentary that

[00:53:15] that hit that hit you in all of the fields and it's very compelling um fire and paradise on Netflix

[00:53:26] it is a 40-minute documentary about the um campfire wildfire that happened in Paradise California

[00:53:36] back in 2018 uh that led to the death of 88 people and like millions of dollars and

[00:53:43] like damages to homes and stuff it was like one of the it's one of the it is on record as being

[00:53:50] the deadliest wildfire in um California history and the documentary was so just like

[00:54:02] in thralling in such a sad and scary way because most of it is footage from the day people

[00:54:12] people filming on their phones or police body camp footage um fire fire camp footage

[00:54:19] and it's like it's almost like an episode of iServide if you like if you like the the show i

[00:54:24] survive which I do like I do like to watch iServide it's exactly like that because they're talking

[00:54:29] to survivors of the fire and it is just so compelling and seeing what those people went through

[00:54:35] and just seeing the magnitude of how a what they thought was a small campfire that happened like

[00:54:43] miles and miles west of this town just spread so quickly due to environmental changes in the

[00:54:50] environment you know they they kind of hammered that home at the end and it so many people lost their

[00:54:58] homes um there is uh two teachers we hear from two teachers who have to evacuate their their

[00:55:04] children from school on a bus they're on a bus with all these kids basically driving through fire

[00:55:11] at one point there is a mom and her kids and they're trying to evacuate but they get to a point

[00:55:19] where all of the cars out at standstill and the fire front is coming and they're talking to her

[00:55:26] and a fire fire and they basically made all of these people get out their cars stand on a concrete

[00:55:32] slab give them blankets and have them put blankets over their head as fire like as the wildfire front

[00:55:39] moves past them and they don't know if they're going to live or die and it is it is so compelling

[00:55:46] and so sad and so scary um content warning because at the end uh once the fire is done they do show you

[00:55:54] the rest the the recovery efforts of people's bodies and you do see um bodies and mostly skeletons

[00:56:04] so uh be prepared for that but 40 minutes I I've never felt something so deeply in like 40

[00:56:12] a 40 minute documentary feels like I say that but you know yeah we do but it was just so

[00:56:19] it was it was very very compelling and it was something I just I just never know I like

[00:56:24] I don't live up there so you know you kind of hear about wildfires but it doesn't like

[00:56:29] really connect with you until you see this type of documentary and then people just

[00:56:33] lost their homes and some people lost their homes and their jobs in one field swoop because the

[00:56:38] city is just on fire so very very interesting oh if you like that have you seen I shouldn't be

[00:56:45] alive because that's very good too I feel like I haven't seen it I know of it yeah oh it's very

[00:56:51] it's like a standalone basically people get um it's I think it's on Amazon or prime I think it's

[00:56:58] on prime but it's um people's survival stories from the wild like some of them are in um mountain

[00:57:06] side somewhere in the savannah some are in the amazon and it's pretty crazy there's one on the

[00:57:11] um someone who survived the tomato rouge kidnathy who which was the only like crime one per se but

[00:57:18] they're pretty wild and what the human body can really go through before uh and surviving that's

[00:57:24] pretty good yeah I'll definitely check that out Sarah how about you well on friday night I saw

[00:57:31] Hannah Gadspeed's new show woof they have more shows in Sydney you need to be quick Melbourne coming up

[00:57:38] late march in april and los and jolies on may the seventh at the theater at eight hotel they are such

[00:57:46] an incredible storyteller if you're a fan of their work you know that you need to travel to see them

[00:57:52] and if you're new to them also travel to see them just a million stars out of five I cannot

[00:57:58] recommend woof highly enough at crime scene we're eager to hear your feedback and suggestions for

[00:58:07] future episodes you can follow crime scene on twitter at crime scene rhap that's seen or email us

[00:58:15] at crime scene rhap at gmail.com we're on tiktok at crime.seam and all other social media at crime

[00:58:25] scene podcast and please remember to subscribe to our feed by going to rob has a website.com slash

[00:58:31] crime feed that makes a big difference. um what do you have going on and where can the people find you?

[00:58:39] um i can be found on twitter at omurza here dvm and on instagram that osu here 24 I don't have

[00:58:47] much other things coming up other than just continuing my work where I take care of exotic animals

[00:58:54] and really trying to build that service up for Ontario people that need their non-dodogs and cats

[00:59:02] being treated because there's quite a vacuum for that um and then enjoying survivor 46 it's pretty

[00:59:08] good i love your idea i learned i feel like i learned so much on your instagram oh yes yes there's

[00:59:14] a lot of pet stories sometimes cute sometimes not you know you've also been watching Australians

[00:59:21] about the titans oh yes love australian survivor so good i'm actually actually going to watch that

[00:59:28] after this because i'm on episode 20 i guess yeah behind as well i said nothing

[00:59:39] mario what do you have going on and where can the people find you?

[00:59:42] well every week me and mascot bring up not me and mascot bring true crime Tuesdays

[00:59:48] uh me and mascot bring you the highlights of the week in wrestling over on the wrestling

[00:59:55] rehab up podcast um you can you can watch us on our new youtube page by going to youtube.com slash

[01:00:02] at wrestlingrehaveup.to youtube.com slash at wrestling rjp up make sure you subscribe to our new

[01:00:11] channel it's so fun over there um we had the amazing Dwight Moore on another survivor 43

[01:00:19] oh love it was amazing yeah so we grad glad we got to talk to him um and of course over on the recap

[01:00:28] kickback me and shepel are gonna be getting into some march madness bracket style uh tournament but

[01:00:34] with black tv show theme songs so we're going to be taking your favorite black tv shows and their theme

[01:00:40] songs and putting them up against each other to see who comes out on top for march madness the

[01:00:44] first part starts this week is the proud time we're going to be on it oh my god i love the proud

[01:00:49] family themes oh yes um so make sure you go to recapkickback.com in order to subscribe wherever

[01:00:56] you listen to your podcasts and yeah put your input in like oh more we're gonna have fillable

[01:01:01] brackets we're gonna have brackets so everybody else can do their own bracket um it's gonna be very

[01:01:06] fun so catch us over there uh Sarah what about you? well people can follow me at Sarah Caridine on

[01:01:13] all the things if that's what they want to do i've run silent podcast some covering Australian

[01:01:18] survivor titans versus rebels with fascinating guests and your Aussie queens Annabelle Fiddler and

[01:01:26] I are getting you ready for season two of alone Australia by recapping the first season and

[01:01:32] breaking down the cast of the new season to come i had the pleasure of talking through all the

[01:01:37] Oscar nominees with Mark and Julie and joining us was Eden Porter cinema chain manager and original

[01:01:44] titan from the current Australian survivor season so you can have a listen now that the Oscars

[01:01:49] have finished and see how right we were and how wrong we were hmm i can't even remember what i

[01:01:56] thought i'm sure i was nobody gets slapped this year i'd like to know um

[01:02:04] marie what are we watching next week? next week on crime scene we're covering quiet on set about the

[01:02:12] treatment of child actors at Nickelodeon we're making this a special episode as a crossover with our

[01:02:18] sister podcast mess magnets with softer and cursed and yeah that's gonna be big they can watch it

[01:02:25] on i b from on mark 17th and you can send us your comments and questions

[01:02:31] and that is going to be a true crime Wednesday because we're going to line up with the mess magnets drop

[01:02:37] schedule so we'll be a day later next week thanks to omazah here for joining us will from america

[01:02:45] the theme music and the whole rhap team behind the scenes until next time case is hello

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