Crime Seen | Episode 86: Exposed: The Ghost Train Fire

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[00:01:30] Hey it's Rob hope you're enjoying all the podcasts we got a lot for you this week including

[00:01:37] our amazing race coverage with Jess and Mike you gotta see what Mike Bloom was wearing

[00:01:43] this week Shannon Gus had all of the Australian survivor finale coverage she talked to Mike

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[00:02:00] game a little reality TV news that we dropped in the feed this week right here on RHAP

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[00:02:33] Hello everyone I'm Sarah Caradine podcasting from aora Sydney.

[00:02:38] I'm Marie fourth and this is crime scene the true crime review podcast where we get to

[00:02:43] the heart of how true crime stories are told you can get this program along with all the

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[00:03:04] com slash crime feed we get your true crime on Tuesdays.

[00:03:08] If you've already subscribed thank you so much Sarah what did we watch this week?

[00:03:14] This week we watched exposed the ghost train fire on Netflix it's a three part docu series

[00:03:22] warning spoiler warning the parts are 90 minutes long it was conceived by Kara Maldram

[00:03:28] Hannah and Jaya Ballendra and written by Kara Maldram Hannah it was nominated for an

[00:03:34] actor award for best documentary that's the Australian Oscars.

[00:03:39] And joining us I was going to say getting on the train with us but maybe that's not something

[00:03:44] we want to do it's our it's our favorite pop culture maven and official third chair of crime scene

[00:03:52] it's eight time are Sarah debunting hey Sarah oh it's official happy guess it's official now

[00:04:00] I'm so glad to be back yes it's official officially official oh fantastic yes Sarah was our first

[00:04:08] guest and has been well as you see eight times a regular all the way through

[00:04:15] all right let's get to the crime as we've got a lot to talk about so Luna Park in Sydney was built

[00:04:20] in 1935 and the most popular ride was the ghost train which was made elsewhere in 1931 and transported

[00:04:29] to Luna Park for the opening it featured many twists and turns that yanked passengers along

[00:04:34] an 180 meter electric track that's 590 feet for our imperial measurement peeps as with many

[00:04:42] ghost trains there were cobwebs and dancing skeletons and ape monster and agravia de la Racola

[00:04:49] the ride soundtrack said there are lots of ghosts in here your shiver and quake in the ghost train

[00:04:56] which I sort of wanted to make rhyme but it doesn't most of the two and a half minute ride was

[00:05:02] pitch black which help conceal the ride's age used that fantastic 30s technology of the limous paint

[00:05:12] yeah after bursting through rubber doors to an outdoor caged area where the rest of the park and

[00:05:18] the merry makers could be observed the train plunged back into darkness where a fake fireplace

[00:05:23] blazed with a fan blowing orange streamers to simulate flames on the night of 9th of June 1979

[00:05:32] a real fire originated in that fireplace according to eyewitnesses 35 people managed to escape from

[00:05:38] the ride helped in great part by ride attendant Tony jay kerb but six boys and a man died in the fire

[00:05:47] they were john goodson 29 his body was found shielding his two children Damian six and craig four

[00:05:55] and best mates Jonathan Billings shamelessly healy Richard Carroll and Michael Johnson who were all

[00:06:02] 13 the fire was originally blamed on electrical faults but arson by known figures has also been

[00:06:10] claimed the motive there was suggested to be an attempt to close the site which is sitting on

[00:06:17] prime harbicide land so that it could be developed the exact cause of the fire could not be determined

[00:06:23] by the original coronal inquiry the case was reopened in 1987 while no new findings were made

[00:06:30] the police investigation and initial colonial inquiry were criticized in april 2021 following

[00:06:38] the Australian release of exposed the ghost train fire and the subsequent public outcry the new

[00:06:45] southwales police reopened their investigation a reward of one million Australian dollars for fresh

[00:06:51] and significant information has been offered to encourage witnesses to come forward as of november

[00:06:57] the 11th of this year the reward is still active so this is in my lifetime i was 19 when this

[00:07:06] happened so only a few years older than the boys who died and it's i was going to say burned on my

[00:07:13] memory but that feels not quite opposite but maybe it is and we see a lot of our curve all footage

[00:07:23] and newspaper front pages which is sort of startle me to remember exactly and the faces

[00:07:31] are particularly of the four school boys were very familiar to me Sarah did you know about this at all

[00:07:38] and give us your background there if you did and your initial thoughts on the docu series

[00:07:45] i had never heard of this case before i was six-ish when this happened and of course was living in

[00:07:55] New Jersey in the states so if it had sort of crossed the transom of my awareness but this was like

[00:08:03] um the big headline at that time i think for most of us although later that year was a ton of

[00:08:09] of time and so i had never heard of this case i was not familiar with it and i was content to

[00:08:25] learn from the docu series i was not tempted to google even though i know that this was in

[00:08:33] the can for a couple of years i was not tempted to sort of second screen and find out

[00:08:39] if another inquire had been opened what the conclusions were after this um so i will say that

[00:08:46] for exposed that it did hold my attention yes the episodes are long but it is successful

[00:08:55] in building its story and atmosphere i think and at certain points almost two

[00:09:02] successful like it was very um trying to to witness this testimony in some cases especially

[00:09:11] these families who are of course still destroyed and still living with this space where their loved

[00:09:18] ones were so um that i mean very like merciless at times but quite effective overall

[00:09:26] and marie how about you what are your overall thoughts of the case and did you know it before this

[00:09:31] docu series oh yeah i wasn't aware of this case i was uh not born uh this case fun

[00:09:42] and you know i had heard so many good things about the series from you you know since our coverage

[00:09:49] it's i think it's come up on this program a few times so i was excited going into it

[00:09:54] that hour and and a half uh run time it what felt did feel daunting for me because i my

[00:10:03] attention span is not that long um but getting over the the first hump once we got to

[00:10:12] like the unraveling of the crime i was all in i i have to admit that first episode was really hard

[00:10:18] for me just because you know it did a really good job of spot lighting the victims but unfortunately

[00:10:25] the victims were all children so it just made me very sad like it was that first the first episode

[00:10:31] was really hard because it was it was a really sad part you know um but i i get it i you know we

[00:10:38] love when they they spotlight you have to spotlight how people's lives are changed and affected by

[00:10:43] by these things and i love that they did that up front um but it was definitely hard for me

[00:10:50] um but once they once it got going like like as they be said i i didn't want to look it up i wanted

[00:10:57] it to unfold and i was on the edge of my seat as they put together what they believed happened

[00:11:05] and i thought it was so good by by the end um of the third episode i was like okay this like

[00:11:12] i was in it i i think we've been at we've been asking for um like forensics evidence like

[00:11:19] different pieces of evidence procedural walking us through it like uncovering stuff like i think

[00:11:24] i got all of that here and so i was definitely um satisfied i did want to ask you a question

[00:11:31] sir because i know this this premiered in australia a few years ago correct yes was it was it

[00:11:37] broken up differently was this like maybe like a six-part documentary or something it's always been

[00:11:43] three like this yes yes so it was um made by the abc the australian broadcasting corporation

[00:11:50] and it played both in its broadcast and on demand as as the full three parts i was wondering that

[00:11:59] too because i knew i'd been coming and talking to you and having to justify asking you both to to do

[00:12:05] four and a half hours of a documentary but i can't see and i'm wondered where the cutting it into

[00:12:12] six parts would work but each part seems to have such a narrative drive within it

[00:12:17] they were like pauses they were like pauses and certain sections that i had noticed that's why i

[00:12:22] had asked they felt like they're like pauses and like like slight pivots in certain in certain parts

[00:12:29] so i was just i was just wondering sir how did you find the runtimes of the three

[00:12:34] episodes do you think they could have been cut up differently um i don't think they could have

[00:12:39] been like divided up differently at any point where i sort of felt like the pace was a little too

[00:12:49] stately i also felt like once you get into sort of the towards the end of the first episode which i

[00:12:59] think is the most i don't want to say painstaking because that's a little negative but i think the

[00:13:04] most sort of um careful and letting these the stories of the victims and their families breathe

[00:13:13] and giving them their time which is worthwhile but it can it can bog down a little for some people so

[00:13:21] i was thinking well maybe like maybe this is where i would have fine tuned some of the runtime out

[00:13:29] of it like just sort of tweaked it a little so it was like five or ten minutes shorter but i wasn't

[00:13:34] really seeing a lot of places where uh there was filler right or you know like reenactments that

[00:13:43] were working mm-hmm i wasn't seeing a lot of opportunities to tighten it up i think it was as long

[00:13:49] as the story told the director and the writer that needed to be and particularly by the end of the

[00:13:56] first episode where um there's like a collaging together of all of the stories into the into the

[00:14:05] timeline as it's happening that i thought was extremely well done compelling tense occasionally

[00:14:15] like this horrifying bloom of fire would be cut in between a talking head instead of interviews

[00:14:22] and that feeling of just sort of like building tension and even though this person is talking to

[00:14:29] you in the present day and you know that they escaped it's still extremely tense and like

[00:14:36] suspenseful almost and i really felt at that point as though whatever the pacing was going

[00:14:44] to be at any point that it was all um considered and purposeful so it is long but you kind of have

[00:14:52] to trust it and let it do its work on you that that i mean that's my advice like it's not it's not

[00:15:00] going to be for everyone and also that first hour is like it's upsetting it's disparaging it's

[00:15:05] grieving it's walking it's grief but that's what it's for and it's i think that's important

[00:15:13] to this story and to just the experience of consuming true crime like this you know

[00:15:20] it's not just entertainment and you have to hear testimony that is sad so i thought it was really

[00:15:26] well done that way yeah i mean let's let's take that first episode first it's a very good place to

[00:15:32] start it starts with Jason Holman who was called the luckiest boy alive he says he doesn't feel like

[00:15:41] it he was the fifth wheel in the group of slightly older boys who died to went into the ghost train

[00:15:51] followed by two and he was in the next car and by the time he was about to go in the reports of

[00:15:58] smoke and fire were coming up the other side and the attendant bodily pulled him out of the car

[00:16:07] and so he was called the luckiest boy alive how did you find him as a he's not the narrator because

[00:16:14] we really have car amount from Hannah for that she's on screen and i we can talk about how effective

[00:16:20] you think she is i think very much so she's us investigating asking questions going here going there

[00:16:26] but how did you find Jason Holman as a shred through this first episode marie oh i thought he was

[00:16:33] a really good constant i thought seeing him it's just that reminder that like i can't imagine what

[00:16:43] it's like like being him as the person who survived and all that survivors guilt in all of that

[00:16:49] but him telling us like walking us through the boys days um talking about all the emotions running

[00:16:57] through them and his emotions running through them after you know later when when they get caught in

[00:17:03] the fire i think he was a perfect like sub-narrater or whatever because i felt like he like he

[00:17:10] and among a whole bunch of the talking heads but also him he made me feel like i was there that day

[00:17:16] with all his descriptions and famously anti-branacments did the reenactments help you

[00:17:24] with that feeling yeah i actually i like the reenactment it the reenactments were like almost so real

[00:17:32] that i was like i had to keep reminding myself i was like there's no way they have this footage of

[00:17:36] like i'm this place burning down you know i think i truly had to keep reminding myself because

[00:17:40] they did a pretty good job of splicing it with like the lunar park what i'm assuming is like

[00:17:45] the promotional materials like commercials and stuff and like old archival footage of like

[00:17:51] days at lunar park so they did an amazing job splicing all that together the reenactments again

[00:17:58] just felt so real especially with all the fire like i'm so interested in how they were able to

[00:18:03] to do those reenactments because uh again it really made you once they started going through

[00:18:11] what happened it really made you feel like okay i can imagine being there i can imagine the panic

[00:18:17] and and being scared and all of that so so thumbs up for these reenactments yes yes

[00:18:25] Sarah the use of the map graphic which showed you where all the parts of the of the ghost train were

[00:18:33] and what the the route of the of the track was the television reportage of the time the newspaper

[00:18:41] reportage of the time how did that strike you the use of that strike you in this first episode

[00:18:48] well i think with um something that the story like this that is so heavily reliant on

[00:18:54] quite um vintage by this point uh i witness accounts that as it turns out a big part of the story is

[00:19:01] that these eyewitness accounts were ignored or sort of like actively forcefully not wanted on the

[00:19:07] voyage of this story but there's a lot of dispute um and then no real evidence was maintained which

[00:19:18] again this is also at the heart of the story but for someone like me who is

[00:19:24] um past listeners may remember this that sometimes i complain like you have to remember that some

[00:19:30] of us have zero spatial relation aptitude and really need like people make fun of the crazy wall

[00:19:38] but it's like some of us need the crazy wall some of us need the map with the dotted line and like

[00:19:43] a circle like here's where people saw the flame like thank you yes so this was one of the better

[00:19:50] um in addition to once the director sort of comes in and becomes not a character in the story but

[00:19:58] starts um being our uh virtual i guess in terms of the processing parts of the investigation in

[00:20:05] the present day that and the use of the map really gave me a sense of the layout of the ride and like

[00:20:14] you know i was i was a child many many decades ago when god was also a child like i've been on rides

[00:20:22] like this um and it gave a it was very evocative as to that sort of um that hitchy sensation of that

[00:20:31] kind of ride how dark it is how it kind of smells like feet old smoke so like if you smell kerosene

[00:20:41] you would notice that and just the the sense of place that uh was was created was impressive especially

[00:20:49] for someone like me who you know sometimes in documentaries like this it's like like literally where

[00:20:55] are we i'm not in the game space and time in the story and uh that was that was really well done

[00:21:03] and then just the occasional like even not even a full second cut in of these flames just like

[00:21:11] boiling up an entire wall and then back to someone's account uh gave a real like emotional sense

[00:21:19] of the of the terror that they must have experienced but also i did get a good sense of where everything was

[00:21:26] and why the locations were significant so yeah and the reenactments too like i'm not usually a fan

[00:21:34] but these felt uh advise it like most things did in this documentary that it was like we're not

[00:21:41] gonna go too crazy with the like deep focus and people flailing their arms around like we're just

[00:21:48] gonna do the bare minimum to kind of give this some visual terrain which i thought was good

[00:21:53] i just to assure our listeners there's no reenactments of the deaths it's uh it's the the

[00:22:01] carriages banging through it's the it's the fire and so on the carriages coming out on fire

[00:22:06] that's yeah um that's killing killing that was a very good shot really well

[00:22:13] well those were indicative of the carriages that the people who died had been in

[00:22:20] and were in a spectacular piece of victim blaming uh lunar park officials said well if they're just

[00:22:27] stayed in the carriage they would have been alright uh despite the fact that the people who escaped

[00:22:31] all left their carriages and found ways out were assisted by tiny Jacob and also reported our

[00:22:40] witnesses also reported the flaming cars coming out the other end and going absolutely no chance

[00:22:45] that you could have survived in a carriage i think for me the the the thing that i'd forgotten because

[00:22:52] no i mean i was when i was a child which was what you know god wasn't even born then Sarah

[00:22:58] i in the 60s went to lunar park and it was an amazing magical place you know this is before we

[00:23:06] had a television and all our toys were made of wood um it wasn't it wasn't an incredible place i

[00:23:13] remember the banging of those rubber doors and it's any ghost train that anyone's ever been in

[00:23:19] you'll know it but what i've forgotten and i found incredibly visceral both they described it

[00:23:25] they had it in reenactments and they had some news footage of it was the caged area that

[00:23:32] the cars came out into halfway through the ride where you could see the park and the park could see you

[00:23:39] and the terror of the people who came out of the fiery ride nobody knew it was on fire yet came out

[00:23:50] could see escape could see where they could be to be safe and they couldn't get out because

[00:23:58] they were caged and then they banged back into into the ride to me that was so well evoked i mean

[00:24:06] i think deliberately so but we have in the second part of the first part we have a lot of

[00:24:14] eyewitnesses people who are actually on the ride and when i rewatched it i was surprised i'd

[00:24:19] forgotten them and how important their testimony was at Sarah was there anyone that stood out for you

[00:24:26] in any of the talking hints in in the first part uh there is a woman i can't i can't remember her name

[00:24:35] it's a it's a germany glass name and i think her for you to harness maca yes who is um

[00:24:42] absolutely not having any version of the official story that the director has not even finished

[00:24:51] um talking about how they said it was a powerful it's in uta's like that's where she had

[00:24:57] bless because yeah probably uh but the

[00:25:03] there's sort of a wide range of emotions from people who were present and the control

[00:25:11] that uta is clearly keeping her self under in terms of returning to this trauma for herself

[00:25:20] but also a sort of righteous anger at how it was handled i thought was quite effective and um

[00:25:28] there was a you know very low pH to those interviews that was that was very affecting and but

[00:25:35] i mean i thought they were all i thought they were all good and it was impressive the the number

[00:25:41] of them that there were and the wide range of access that that uh she got meldram hanna because

[00:25:49] i mean a lot of these people should you would think would not be wanting to discuss this whether

[00:25:55] because of trauma or because of the implication of investigators but it was very impressive and uh

[00:26:03] uta was particularly memorable to me i'm going to advise yeah i really liked all of the talking

[00:26:11] heads i kind of liked um all of the older talking heads um where the ones who basically

[00:26:18] alerted everybody about the fire um i like i like all i like all of those people but one person that

[00:26:26] i do want to um uh spotlight frank boy tano the luna park employee he was good like he was very

[00:26:36] interesting because you can see him relive in it you can see him like almost not wanting to relive

[00:26:43] it and as the documentarians are doing just the the most fantastic thing of

[00:26:50] handing the the the talking heads evident as she's going through it with them

[00:26:56] i mean that was such an effective um story tool and i'm sure we'll talk about it but he's

[00:27:02] just like oh my god not something else he's like every time she hands him a paper he's like oh god

[00:27:07] like what are you about to reveal to me now and then later on uh it being revealed that he

[00:27:14] he was he went from like a luta park ticket holder or ride attendant to a lawyer yes uh was really i

[00:27:23] i love finding that out and um his thoughts on on some of the stuff they discovered so he was

[00:27:30] i really liked his reactions i like the reactions of a lot of these talking heads they did a really

[00:27:34] good job of presenting these talking heads with the information in the moment and we can we saw a lot

[00:27:39] of people taking in information in the moment and i mean that's for the good the bad and the ugly

[00:27:46] you know i'm saying we got we got all of it when they're when they were presented a new information but

[00:27:52] um i really enjoyed just the overall process of of them using the talking heads

[00:28:02] yeah and we're introduced to a character that we're only going to see archivaly and that's

[00:28:07] martin sharp for important australian artist founder of the yellow house which is literally

[00:28:13] you know just down the road from me it's still there it's a cafe now but it was an important

[00:28:19] movement i had a martin sharp print you know in the eighties that i loved and his work it can't

[00:28:28] be underestimated the sort of visual impact of his work still today graphically on on australian

[00:28:34] artists he comes up because he was obsessed with luna park and became obsessed with the case

[00:28:45] sarah when jason shows caro meldramana the trays of cassette tapes how did your little journalistic

[00:28:57] antenna go off uh my notes say oh so he's australian's Richard belzer because it just like put me in

[00:29:08] mind of how tirelessly like belzer found a guy to co write two books with him about all the things

[00:29:17] the war and report lied about about the jiff case assassination and it just reminded me like here's

[00:29:23] this guy who's sort of known for um another uh genre of art um taking on this case and never

[00:29:34] never letting it drop um and certainly a tray of cassette tapes um gave my uh eighties kid

[00:29:42] heart a a tingle but i also remember thinking like you know belzer makes a lot of good points

[00:29:51] but it's hard to prove negatives so i really wondered like is where is this going like how is this

[00:30:00] going to be structured um in the event that this is a uh a victim like in holman's case sort of a

[00:30:09] survivor kind of seizing on a crack pot theory to sort of um i don't know how to set not rationalize

[00:30:20] it but just to sort of contextualize the strategy for himself which is a perfectly human response but

[00:30:28] i was like if this turns out to be this really you know and then Elvis and a band of aliens came and

[00:30:34] lit that like oh god like this could get sad in an entirely other way that's not credible it

[00:30:43] and is hard to watch in a different way and it didn't go that direction at all i think that

[00:30:49] this the shift into all right let's figure out what's on this case yeah take us into the second

[00:30:55] and third episode now Sarah yeah with the investigation so that's when they start they get

[00:31:01] everything transcribed they start chasing down these accounts they start finding various witnesses

[00:31:08] that um had you know had a testimony that wasn't used at the inquest or that was suppressed

[00:31:16] allegedly by the police and then it turns into this whole new jersey-esque

[00:31:23] corruption thing that i think they did a really good job stepping you through it like for an

[00:31:29] american viewer i wasn't you know granted them from new jersey so some of these corruption stories

[00:31:36] it's like you could take a shortcut i grew up with this i get it but um i thought they did a really

[00:31:41] good job stepping you through it clearly but not too not too slowly like it wasn't too

[00:31:47] didactic a pace um but yeah i think that i think that the um the leading with martin sharp was an

[00:31:58] interesting choice that i remember thinking like i don't depending on what is on those tapes

[00:32:05] i don't i don't know like this is a four and a half hours is a lot of time to spend

[00:32:10] on like sort of bogus not proof proof so i think that they did they paced it well and they

[00:32:21] made it seem reliable like i was convinced i don't know about you guys yeah leading with martin

[00:32:27] martin sharp i guess it's because you know we have no cultural um rack election of him so i was just like

[00:32:35] i was again this was one of those moments where i was taken out of it because i was just like okay

[00:32:39] it's a guy he's he's obsessed like all these recordings like okay like that's that's all it

[00:32:48] was the locked room you know i got effects and files yeah right right right right right and like

[00:32:57] as he said it could have been like you know the crackpot you just you just didn't know at that

[00:33:01] that point for us because i didn't know right like they said he did all these things but i'm like

[00:33:06] i don't know what that means here like the the way caramel jim and her collaborators

[00:33:11] stepped through the evidence and you do think yeah i don't know about this oh

[00:33:16] yeah oh i mean i found myself yeah and then when we got to never never never ran i said

[00:33:22] if i never and ran i can believe it yes but i can believe it yeah no i i thought i thought

[00:33:29] they i thought they did a really good job and like i said

[00:33:33] episode two was it's really where um i thought it hit the ground running for for me um i will say

[00:33:41] for everybody out there like this is one of those documentaries like what i looked down for two

[00:33:47] seconds i'm like oh man i lost it and i had to rewind so many times so it's not a two-screener

[00:33:55] i i it probably took me longer than four and a half hours to get through it because i had to keep

[00:34:00] or winding stop you know stopping or winding whenever i would fall out of it um but i i did think

[00:34:08] that the most successful part was like we said the maps i would i would even you know me i

[00:34:14] would have loved the map to be up a little bit longer you know i'm saying yeah um the explanation

[00:34:20] of the deaths was it just that they got lost within the ride after trying to escape syrup like i don't

[00:34:27] because they weren't the idea yes okay yeah because um the tiny jacket could see them but he

[00:34:32] couldn't he couldn't get to them get to them yeah because i was i was really shocked once once

[00:34:38] like i said some of the um i witnessed it started going through the actual count what happened and how

[00:34:43] they they said they went through and how the the father and the sons were behind them but the boys

[00:34:48] didn't get on until later i was like well i just assumed that they were like right behind each other

[00:34:53] like it was one of those things it was like right behind each other thing but what was known is like

[00:34:57] there's probably so much chaos and panic and not clearly marked exits that led to some of their

[00:35:03] deaths and i and i i find that i find that like truly sad but i i did and i wanted to learn a little

[00:35:12] bit more about the ride operator who like let the the boys go even though at that point they were

[00:35:19] still kind of signaling fire did we we didn't hear from that guy did we get a splice that he was

[00:35:27] a ticket taker and Tony said the the operator on the guy pushed the yeah push the button no he was

[00:35:35] there but i feel like we did after a certain point we didn't hear that much

[00:35:39] from him and there would be reasons for that but yes i mean once you get into the second episode

[00:35:46] in just this um cavalcade of like dozens of people having pertinent information and then one after

[00:35:54] another they're like we were invited down but we weren't called or we weren't even told to come

[00:36:00] to the house like and then you really start smelling at kerosene soaked yes yes and then the second

[00:36:10] it gets into like oh it's a real state thing that i was like oh Jesus he's so so it's so funny

[00:36:17] so we haven't talked about detective inspector Douglas night who yes is probably get into him

[00:36:24] and the man who started the cover up the man who just mere hours after the fire said it was an

[00:36:31] electrical fault and this was this was the part of the documentary that i really love because

[00:36:38] um caro and her team were introducing the official statements to the eyewitnesses

[00:36:43] and the eyewitnesses are like these official students are not lighting up between Douglas

[00:36:49] night and them saying that there were four witnesses who said that they saw sparks an electrical

[00:36:53] like electrical sparks shortly before the fire all the eyewitnesses are sitting there like hmm it wasn't

[00:37:00] me and then the smash cut of just all the witness me like i didn't say i smell sparks i know it wasn't

[00:37:05] sparks and the one lady talking about how it originated in the fire well they all of the all

[00:37:12] the witnesses when shown the map they said where did you see the fire they all put an x near the

[00:37:17] imitation fire area and one lady had even said she saw the fire and she kind of put her hand

[00:37:23] near it and felt the heat and so all of these people all of their statements correlate saying no

[00:37:29] we saw the fire originate in this one spot but the official statements are saying that are

[00:37:34] originated in this other spot that it couldn't have originated from and then they start showing

[00:37:39] pictures of the the southern fuse boxes what uh Douglas night um blamed the fire for

[00:37:46] and they had pictures of the the southern fuse box almost looking completely untouched amongst

[00:37:53] spooky yeah really it was one of the only things standing in the in the flames and when they start

[00:38:00] to get to this cover up it was just so funny because i was like this seems like to me

[00:38:06] during this second episode i was like this seems like something just a group of teenagers

[00:38:11] probably do like once they said that it was like oh the fire was started in the imitation fireplace

[00:38:17] and i was like i can see some near duels doing this and then as it as it unfolds and it's short

[00:38:25] has like is this for real estate and it's like slowly and slowly unfold i was like oh my god this

[00:38:32] it was it was very good but uh i like getting into the detective inspector Douglas night

[00:38:38] and then the unfolding of just the horrendous people who who who to did this cover up

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[00:40:15] pick less it's that easy for people who don't know where linear park is if you were standing at

[00:40:24] Sydney Opera House the most recognizable building in the world apparently you were standing

[00:40:29] at the front tip of that and you were looking across at the harbor bridge where the

[00:40:36] northern span touches down is where lunar park is it's right underneath where the bridge is so

[00:40:42] primo harbicide real estate that rang true for me the real estate cover up

[00:40:50] Sarah what struck me was you know with some conspiracy theories you go that's all very well but

[00:40:56] like to what end and and is it logical and could this have happened did you find as it as it unfolded

[00:41:03] that it became more realistic in terms of in our opinion analytically the the light conclusion

[00:41:14] that caramel jim hanna and her team come to uh yeah i mean going into it like at the top of the

[00:41:23] episode i sort of felt like that it was gonna be probably more a question of negligence that was

[00:41:29] covered up and i sort of felt like i was going to be um treating with the story that was like

[00:41:35] the action park documentary meets uh the american experience episode about the triangle shirt

[00:41:42] waistfire and that this was going to be um more of a negligence issue in covering that up i had no idea

[00:41:49] that it was going to be this like Aussie's cervical situation that was just like

[00:41:57] that the corruption went all the way up to the to the level all the way to the top

[00:42:03] so i had no idea that we were that we were getting into that but again

[00:42:08] and you know spending my entire life in the new york new jersey trisate area pretty much like

[00:42:13] this was eminently believable that this is how these things get done i would really like i was just

[00:42:21] maddened that they never tracked down the actual uh bikies yeah or um allegedly etc. tasked with

[00:42:31] setting this fire because it's like if all you want is to like clear off this um land and get it

[00:42:40] condemned so you can take it over for your own nefarious um you know turn up with a haircut whatever

[00:42:47] the hell you're doing um maybe wait until everybody went like it was mentioned that that was

[00:42:56] in the garden state well put in the middle of the night when there's that a fucking four-year-old on

[00:43:03] the ride oh my god don't outsource this stuff to people who are going to like children on fire even

[00:43:09] by mistake fuck there i did pick up that the the the the alleged instruction allegedly was to do it

[00:43:18] after the part closed and that made sick because i was thinking you don't just kill children

[00:43:23] like it brings far too much far too much heat as there were uh so once so every time i had a question

[00:43:30] if it doesn't quite make sense again would be a plate that beautifully paced uh release of

[00:43:37] information to us and the release of the information that it was supposed to be after the part

[00:43:43] closed i thought well that makes sense where i a you know where i absephron for example dead dead

[00:43:50] now so i am i loved it if i'm a mep is dead uh allegedly uh you know where i a king pin of some

[00:43:58] or a queen pin of some kind i would say i want children to die why would i am not a cold-hearted

[00:44:04] monster i would say can you please set it on fire after closing uh and then the the the mechanism

[00:44:11] by which that didn't happen it just all it made sense but then maybe maybe the documentaries

[00:44:17] making it make sense marie well i mean allegedly you know a abes is good at this he's not he's not

[00:44:24] new to this he's true to this he's he's allegedly burned down at least six other buildings

[00:44:30] when they were talking about those other six other buildings they didn't say anything about

[00:44:33] anybody died so i took it as those were professionally done after hours low stakes low you know

[00:44:43] and i i think the problem here was outsourcing to a bunch of 18 to 20 year olds

[00:44:49] bikies apparently that made nobody could really clock their ages but like like sdb said like

[00:44:55] with such vivid descriptions of those perpetrators you should have easily been able to track them

[00:45:03] down i mean they were if you were looking for them if you were exactly if you were looking for

[00:45:07] one of them had like a shorter life blonde hair the star tattoo on his earlobe i was like oh my

[00:45:14] god such a distinguished feature yeah but you know it was called off the the equivalent of the

[00:45:19] APB was called off because they didn't want them found because they could have pointed the finger back

[00:45:26] to main culprit yeah so it was a journey that that second episode was was the journey um that starts

[00:45:35] the third episode for me which was my boy yeah i mean taking off the allegedly the fact is that

[00:45:42] the police were clearing the site the next morning oh yeah that was a gut punch that's another thing

[00:45:48] like i just the way that that timeline was laid out and just how long it took i.e half a

[00:45:58] half a day yeah half a day yeah half a day the next day everything's gone but the tracks

[00:46:05] like the uh one of the parents comes down to leave a flower and everything's been

[00:46:11] leveled and i realized it's not on the same scale but like

[00:46:16] nine eleven it took them like two years to clear off because they weren't trying to hide

[00:46:23] anything like they took their time as a result many investigators on that pile are now ill and uh

[00:46:30] you know i wish them the best treatment but that's i mean this is the cost of really investigating

[00:46:39] something like this and it is i can't believe it wasn't necessarily more shocking at the time to

[00:46:46] people that it was like you know someone's out there with like a broom and a dust bin once the

[00:46:51] sun comes up and like all this like keeps of debris uh also ghost are called evidence

[00:47:01] the forensics the original part they talked to is like yes what the yeah they they talked to

[00:47:08] like at least two firefighters i believe and and i don't i didn't understand why the

[00:47:13] why the firefighters and fire marshal fire chief wasn't taking point on this and why it was

[00:47:18] the police department which we learn later i feel like we didn't understand that either

[00:47:24] you know i think uh you know like Douglas night showed up like and i said you kind of said

[00:47:31] it was like okay they put it they put Douglas night in charge he rolled up and he he started making

[00:47:36] the decision i mean one of the enduring images for me of the documentary is Douglas night on the

[00:47:43] television uh news it at the site the next morning saying yes we've determined it was an electrical

[00:47:50] fire in his eyes dropped down and away and i thought yeah you could he's thrilled he's like you

[00:47:54] cannot even look down the barrel of the camera with that lie the other thing that that turned me

[00:48:01] if it's true was the the girls saying they were going to go to the park because they wanted to meet the

[00:48:08] boys and the father getting the word uh don't let them go so that's so that's how i was so three

[00:48:17] opens right we we talked to um one of the mothers of one of the boys um and she said she had just

[00:48:24] noticed a bunch of girls like really crying at the back of funeral and then later one of the

[00:48:29] girls called her up and said we were supposed to meet within that night but you know my father wouldn't

[00:48:34] let us go and the mother was like i always found that quite odd and then they're like who's his father

[00:48:40] is like what is his name John Rooklyn or something um what's his name names saffron yeah Rooklyn yeah

[00:48:48] the some his name was something Rooklyn but he was a known like gangster liaison like he had ties to

[00:48:56] mafia people here in america and he basically tells them don't go that night because something

[00:49:03] is gonna go down and the way that they open episode three like that and then just the red strings of it

[00:49:11] all was just truly amazing because we find out Rooklyn is the one who puts Douglas night in charge

[00:49:18] and then um on top of Douglas night i forget the the second guy but the biggest thing was the third

[00:49:25] guy when they showed the third guy's pictures to all the police officers and they're like oh good

[00:49:31] not not him then we just get also their reaction like a couple of them just sort of like holding the

[00:49:39] is like a joggy bag of poo that they're just like oh this is this asshole and it's revealed to be bill

[00:49:46] allen apparently who was known as the world's crookedest cop who we can see news footage later um he

[00:49:55] like get he later gets charged in all sorts of just bribery uh all this stuff just he's outed for

[00:50:03] like a good portion of his crimes and it was just it was just like very amazing turnfold if you love

[00:50:11] that red string this is where this is where i mean they used to they used to say new south whales

[00:50:18] police the best police force money can buy uh it's not so anymore but you know certainly it's

[00:50:26] none of its uh rang falsely to me so anything else before we give our ratings and final thoughts

[00:50:34] i think that this was particularly um respectful of victims and their differing experiences

[00:50:42] of a single tragedy in a way that is less unusual than it has been like five years ago or 10 years ago

[00:50:52] which is a good thing but still striking i mean yeah you know we all consume a lot of these

[00:50:59] documentaries and there were ways in which this was this had an in ear for

[00:51:07] um the emotion of its own story that i found impressive and yeah admirable as well

[00:51:16] i would also like to say that this was a stunning use of talking heads like sdb said it gave

[00:51:23] them room to grieve it gave them room to recount the events in their own way and to present

[00:51:30] their own stories um and there was a lot of them there was like there's truly a lot of meat

[00:51:37] actually at the end of the docu's here do we get like the board full of everybody that we talk to

[00:51:42] and they did a remarkable job of letting these people lay out the story while also giving us

[00:51:49] reenactments that made sense archival footage that gave context and um just i love the way that we got

[00:51:59] to see caro and her team connect with the talking heads i'm thinking about less doubt who they who

[00:52:04] they found it felt like they were finding people i i want to know who the researcher was because it

[00:52:10] felt like they're finding people just up and down city i don't know the cost of Sydney but i

[00:52:15] feel like they were all up and down it um so um i think it was i do think it was wonderfully done

[00:52:21] for it to be mostly um people's first hand accounts of what they remember and they did

[00:52:29] a perfect job of weaving all of those different stories together and again like i like of course i

[00:52:34] said um showing them showing the the witnesses and people like stuff that they had maybe not seen

[00:52:41] before and getting their their authentic reactions on camera was was a really really good touch

[00:52:50] i think it's interesting you know time time has passed it's over 40 years and i think you know

[00:52:58] it's very very fresh for a lot of people still but also other people who might have tales to tell

[00:53:05] or a piece of information they've been chewing on for 40 years it may be a relief to talk to

[00:53:12] a journalist to write something down to make a deathbed confession you know we see this in

[00:53:19] uh often you know late white why did they speak now after all these years but in fact it is

[00:53:25] after all these years is the time that you speak because you've been living with it for all that time

[00:53:31] so Sarah how many magnifying glasses are you going to rate exposed the ghost train fire out of a

[00:53:37] possible five uh i think in the as at the end of the first episode i would have been at a three and

[00:53:46] a half or a four and then as of the middle or the end of the second episode it was up to a four and a

[00:53:52] half but i'm going to give it the full five because it has a cumulative power uh it has a

[00:53:59] respect for its victims it's affecting but it's not um it's not like cynical about the way that

[00:54:08] it's trying to affect you it's just telling everyone's stories and letting them tell their stories

[00:54:15] in a way that is very moving but also rigorous as far as i could see

[00:54:22] it wasn't a story i was familiar with i wasn't tempted to google it uh i really

[00:54:28] you know do i have a couple of little nitpicks maybe but it's more that it's like i just want to find out

[00:54:34] what actually happened that's not on meldramhanna that's on the corrupt power structures of 70s and

[00:54:42] 80s uh new south whales so fire i'm doing it wow you're doing it

[00:54:48] marie what about you how many magnifying glasses i would give them a four point five just because

[00:54:53] i do have to knock off the point five for the first episode because honestly if we weren't covering it

[00:55:00] and i just put this on just to put it on i truly don't know if i would have gotten to the great

[00:55:05] bits i i truly don't because i agree with sdb it really compounded on itself and it made sense by the

[00:55:13] and it did a very good job from tip to tail but the tip doesn't really draw you in as much as the tail does

[00:55:21] so um you know for some people who again like us true crime hits who are just like oh let me turn

[00:55:29] on something in the background or let me just you know pop this on this looks entertaining i don't

[00:55:34] know if they would have stuck around so just for that i'm gonna give it a four point five but all

[00:55:39] together is something i'm really glad i stuck with and i watched because i was so intrigued by the

[00:55:45] end of it and i and i and i don't care i know we're supposed to be subjected but i was like i'm

[00:55:49] they saw me to meet you just like it all made sense they saw it and so i like that kind of outcome as

[00:55:57] well like you know that it feels like we do have answers to the question even though they might

[00:56:03] be they might not be official answers i do feel like a lot of the holes were plugged up and they did a

[00:56:09] great job of doing that how about you Sarah look i'm a five i love that first episode almost

[00:56:17] in and of itself even if there wasn't to be further further exploration investigation can of worms

[00:56:26] as openings is just for the very human stories that it told the as Sarah says stately pace it actually

[00:56:36] kind of needed to be and then right in the last minute of that episode it's like mmm arson

[00:56:42] question mark and then that draws you into the world of the second and third episode so i'm going to

[00:56:49] give it a five there was criticism of the program's allegations at the time that it came out

[00:56:56] and the ABC board established inquiry into the program so two weeks ago we reviewed part one of

[00:57:03] a three part docu series murder in Boston with georothy we all gave that five magnifying glasses

[00:57:10] based only on that first episode now we've all watched all the episodes as Sarah what were your

[00:57:16] overall thoughts on that property murder in Boston this is a case that i was familiar with

[00:57:23] i'm sure this is not true at least like even in Boston i'm sure this is not true but my sort of

[00:57:31] like naive at that time mind kind of feels that chucks duert uh was the vanguard for like

[00:57:39] a better term of blaming a black guy and this was really about not just that but about Boston's whole

[00:57:49] problem i think in that regard it's the same guy who did the michael jordan yeah series so there's some

[00:57:59] like build um construction ticks that are put to good use here i think like pretty good use uh

[00:58:07] i felt like this by making it much more about the context of place and time um made made the story sort

[00:58:18] of like greater than the sum of its parts um it was really not easy to watch it was gross the whole

[00:58:27] steward family seems to um have a lot of problems or had a lot of problems but uh although

[00:58:36] i think that it was a victim of like everything has to be a three-parter now for some reason

[00:58:43] i'm not sure that's necessarily true i think this could have been a two-hour feature but it was

[00:58:49] um very compelling and i think it set up from the correct angle so for me it would be like

[00:58:57] four and a four and a half four and a half and mariti stand by your initial ratings of five or did

[00:59:04] the second and third episode uh change your mind no i i i definitely stand by my initial reading

[00:59:11] of five i think the second episode um did a good job we do we talked about how the first episode

[00:59:17] set up the powder keg that was Boston the racial powder keg that that was Boston and then the second

[00:59:23] episode kind of just ignites it and you know we we find out about like how the binnets are treated

[00:59:30] willy binnets uh family um who was who was a black man who was suspected of the murders and um

[00:59:38] you know until you get to and then lug in the poor police practices that basically let them harass

[00:59:45] a whole black community based on just the words of of one guy like not police work just through the

[00:59:52] words of one guy to episode three again full spoilers here um starting with Chuck's death and

[00:59:59] suicide i was i thought that was pretty interesting but i didn't realize they started with that

[01:00:04] because guess what that's when the investigation started oh yeah and that's when the you know uh

[01:00:10] we get his brother's confession that leads Chuck to um his completion of suicide that leads

[01:00:16] the police to actually doing their job and uncovering you know all of the things that they would have

[01:00:22] uncovered if they had actually did some investigating uh you know the four months previous um how all

[01:00:30] all of the things tied back to Chuck being the perpetrator behind this crime and that if you know

[01:00:36] they hadn't let silly old racism get in the way they could have figured that out much sooner

[01:00:43] and um just the infuri the infuriation that uh that police officer was it bill done

[01:00:49] bill done in vote in in me he would do nothing differently marie yeah yeah we still know

[01:00:56] he said we still know who killed yeah all the evidence I've missed my old city

[01:01:03] yeah it's not it's not bus to say what they did know say it without saying it bill so i mean

[01:01:13] I truly truly love that docu series because like sdb said i knew this case i knew this case

[01:01:19] backward in four uh but i knew it as the up you murders like i said in our in our review

[01:01:24] i knew it from the angle of oh it's about money life insurance like they they these other properties

[01:01:30] they never talk about the racial aspect it's almost like they too want to just gloss over

[01:01:36] the fact that he was able to get away with it for so long because he understood the racial

[01:01:42] undertones and the racial tensions of his of his city and he was able to use that to

[01:01:49] almost commit the perfect crime because if his brother hadn't come forward will he been it would

[01:01:53] have been sitting in prison for her murder so it's you know it's it's a trotious and i think

[01:01:59] that it highlighted the the right things about the case it completely highlighted the right things

[01:02:03] about about the case and yeah they could probably have um cut that third episode up a little bit more

[01:02:10] you know and then you know just made it a just like a two-parter but honestly i i loved everything

[01:02:16] in it like i said i think um it definitely spoke to the times and that that's what i really appreciate

[01:02:25] how about you Sarah do you stand by your reading yeah i'm gonna keep it as a five i thought it was

[01:02:30] absolutely fascinating and given the historical background given the context i loved

[01:02:38] hit well loved i mean but you know i i found it satisfying to hear all of that

[01:02:45] the documentary gave me time to think and it also said well once they said will he been it hadn't

[01:02:50] done that i'll be done this other thing so we'll keep him in jail and i thought

[01:02:56] sing from that song sheet because i think that happens as well we will arrest you because you

[01:03:01] must have done something and now that we have you in custody we will find that something and we will

[01:03:07] leave you in uh in jail for that thing because we didn't like the look of you and i thought that

[01:03:13] it's very very fun but think of all the people who also end up in you know for probably other crimes

[01:03:19] because they initiated that stop in frisk and they were essentially given the green light to just

[01:03:24] harass that community all of the all of the life-changing things that they did in that four month time

[01:03:30] time spent and it just really you know actually i'm sorry i mean i'm not pleased it's it's a hot

[01:03:37] topic and i can i suppose what also struck me is how it's not a thing of the past

[01:03:44] it's it's a now thing and they did that by just by showing you you go yes that's still happening

[01:03:50] now but also the very powerful testimony of the younger generation of black people who

[01:03:58] who wear it today and i'm living it today so yes let's move to our recommendations uh Sarah what do

[01:04:06] you have to recommend for alasnus well uh i have a couple very quickly um there is a version of this story

[01:04:16] that was made in 1990 uh starring ken 30 something old and all people as chucks doored um they named it

[01:04:25] something absolutely terrible like a tilt death to us part or something like that but you can find

[01:04:32] it on youtube pretty easily just google chucks doored youtube and it'll be there it's actually

[01:04:40] pretty well done there's a lot of hay attack guys in it and ken olin is just such a malignant

[01:04:47] narcissist presence which is a little surprising you're sort of used to thinking of him as you know

[01:04:53] 30 somethings uh warm and well meaning yuppie but uh not he's not that in this so i would recommend

[01:05:01] that and i also recently watched on the Turner classic movies app my new favorite app because

[01:05:08] i'm a young and hip this 1971 movie called the Todd killings which is based on a real story about a

[01:05:17] guy named charles schmid who was this like piper of Tucson like that's actually literally what they

[01:05:25] called him he was like the old guy at the club he um but he surrounded himself with these teenagers even

[01:05:31] though he was much older and uh there were murders connected with this guy and they made a movie

[01:05:38] starring almost known you've heard of but it's also full of hay it's that guys from like 70s

[01:05:44] cobshows you'll be like um and it's really quite amazingly well done like a lot of the culture

[01:05:54] has dug in on this story in different ways like uh joys carolotes uh where are you going

[01:06:00] where have you been apparently that short story is based on this case and then the movie

[01:06:06] starring more adorned from the 80s which is based on the story bob dillon roto song about it

[01:06:12] rose mcgowen made a short about it uh but the Todd killings from 1971 if you can find it

[01:06:21] i definitely recommend it it's a little like weird and occasionally trying too hard but for 1971

[01:06:29] where you would really expect sort of an establishment uh film to be trying to make a comment on

[01:06:36] capital k kids today it's rather restrained it's in and out in 91 minutes which god bless let's go

[01:06:43] back to that uh let's go back to that please please yeah i mean it uh it's left the it's left the

[01:06:51] tcm roster for right now but it may be back and i think you may be able to find it on the criterion

[01:06:57] channel it's really an interesting look at you know like a what 50 years ago they were like how

[01:07:05] this kind of case this story was told and they did quite a good job the lead actor is serving this

[01:07:13] weird mix of fander beak and jack Nicholson that's a little disconcerting but you get used to it

[01:07:18] in then in 91 minutes it's over it's called the Todd killings if i didn't mention that already

[01:07:23] yes yes i'll put all of this in the show notes of course so i was honoured,

[01:07:32] flattered, blushing pink to my cheeks uh to be asked to contribute to best evidences here and round

[01:07:40] up of the best into crime books long reads podcasts and documentaries best evidence is serody

[01:07:46] bunting and previous guest if baby's news letter anyway you get it every sub stack you get it

[01:07:54] every day of the week uh every weekday and it is fascinating and that is my big recommendation

[01:08:02] is subscribe to that because it's it's wonderful yeah so yeah so i'm just i know that americans say

[01:08:12] sucking kneecaps here in australia we call it pissing in your pocket but Sarah i'm not pissing in your

[01:08:17] pocket it was fascinating for me to look back at my true crime consumption for the year which has

[01:08:24] been a lot so marion i not only watch everything that we talked to you about we watch a whole lot

[01:08:30] of other stuff which we decide not to do or we don't have time to do or is not good

[01:08:35] so the list uh dropping daily on best evidence um really fascinated to see what my fellow

[01:08:43] crime writers podcasters and commentators are recommending so my recommendation of podcast

[01:08:49] was you at was and is you didn't see nothing from your handsla kore and invisible institute i

[01:08:56] arrived about it on crime scene at the time it came out and i'd like to highlight two other

[01:09:02] recommendations from our colleagues the retrievals about the Yale fertility center nurse

[01:09:09] stopping out fentanyl used in the agricultural process with saline and the dismissal of the women

[01:09:15] who reported excruciating pain we've recommended that here before but it's worth recommending again

[01:09:22] and one that i missed out on uh so i'm going to definitely circle back too is violation which is

[01:09:29] about the way parole is used to abuse prisoners who have already paid for their crimes so i'm

[01:09:35] just highlighting those two but recommending uh best evidence in general and the year end roundup

[01:09:41] in particular to give you things for your holiday break at crime scene we are eager to hear your

[01:09:48] feedback and suggestions for future episodes you can follow crime scene on twitter at crime scene

[01:09:53] r-h-o-p that's s-e-e-n or email us crime scene r-h-o-p at gmail.com

[01:10:01] we're on tiktok at crime.scene and on all other social media as crime scene podcast

[01:10:09] and please remember to subscribe to our feed by going to rob has a website dot com slash crime

[01:10:15] feed it makes a huge difference.

[01:10:21] Sarah what do you have going on and wick and the people find you?

[01:10:25] well i do have best evidence as you mentioned and thank you for contributing to that

[01:10:30] it's one of my favorite things that we do each year and that's at bestevidence.fi and best

[01:10:36] evidence fyi on various socials including instagram and blue sky and i have a true crime bookshop

[01:10:45] that's all i sell there how true crime is told and sold mostly secondhand some new items which you

[01:10:51] should check out because they're on sale right now for everyone but especially for you listeners

[01:10:58] if you use the code x c s 15 that's x c s one five at checkout at exhibit bebooks.com you will get

[01:11:08] 15% off your order we'll link to that in the show notes i hope but oh yes then come on through

[01:11:15] save some money. raid some crime and what do you have going on and wick and the people find you

[01:11:22] Mary? well we just wrapped up our coverage of rap shit over on post show recaps me and shepel finish

[01:11:30] our coverage of season two we had an amazing journey so if you haven't already go check out

[01:11:36] rap shit on hbo max you know max app and then you can go listen to us talk breakdown each episode

[01:11:45] in season two and it was just an astonishing season and we were floored at the finale and we're so

[01:11:53] sad that it's done and we need more people to go and watch it in stream it so we can guarantee

[01:11:57] that season three but you can go to post show recaps.com slash connect in order to hear our

[01:12:05] our rap shit coverage we're also doing the best of 2023 for post show recaps we did a look back

[01:12:13] on everything that's the connect covered this year we had a pretty busy year so i'm pretty sure

[01:12:19] you can get that by going going to post show recaps.com slash 2023 and to hear us break down

[01:12:25] everything that we've covered over this year we did like five things we covered swarms snowfall

[01:12:32] the other black girl the changeling and rap shit so definitely go check that out. Sarah what about

[01:12:39] you what do you got going on? well people can follow me if they'd like to do that it's Sarah

[01:12:43] caradine on all the things over on post show recaps i've just finished covering the art for dodger

[01:12:49] worth a listen we said and i am very amusing if i say so myself. Agrees Jess and i will bring you a

[01:12:58] full spoiler recap of a murder at the end of the world on silent podcast i've just finished

[01:13:05] coverage of squid game the challenge and my co-host mccleave and i will be interviewing some of the

[01:13:10] contestants starting with Felicia and Ashley cannot wait to talk to those two ladies.

[01:13:17] watch for my traders UK coverage and we'll be starting next week with a pre-season breakdown

[01:13:22] with the winner of traders news elin season one not saying their name no spoilers.

[01:13:29] Next time on crime scene we're covering love has won the cult of mother god with mat scott

[01:13:35] watch it on max in the us and binge in australia and send us your comments and questions.

[01:13:42] thanks to Sarah debunting for joining us will from america for the theme music and the whole rhap team

[01:13:49] behind the scenes until next time case closed.

[01:14:11] you