Crime Seen | Episode 113: Mastermind: To Think Like a Killer

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[00:00:55] I'm Sarah Carradine podcasting from Gatigal, Sydney. I'm Marty Forth. And this is Crime Scene, the true crime review podcast where we get to the heart of how true crime stories are told. You can get this fine program along with all the other fantastic reality TV content

[00:01:11] by subscribing at robhasawebsite.com. We know reality TV. We would love it if you would subscribe to our dedicated feed as well. Please go to robhasawebsite.com slash crime feed. We know true crime. Last week we watched The Man with a Thousand Kids with Chappelle,

[00:01:31] a very rousing discussion that one was. Sarah, what did we watch this week? Well, in a complete change of pace from bad men to very, very good women, we watched Mastermind to Think Like a Killer. It was produced by Dakota and Elle Fanning and directed by Abigail Fuller.

[00:01:51] And who better to discuss this with us than returning guest, court case investigator Sarah Killeen. She last joined us to cover the Jinx Part 2 in episode 102. So give that a listen if you haven't already. And Sarah, welcome back to the scene. Thank you. I appreciate it very much.

[00:02:08] I'm so excited to talk today. Quickest returning guest record. Does that still belong to? Mark Blankenship. Mark Blankenship. Yeah, you might got to see. We might got to count that. I'll get back to you on that. Yeah. I'll have it next week if it means winning something.

[00:02:29] I'm very excited. You can basically come back anytime to talk about absolutely anything. But what better to talk about than a documentary series about one of your personal heroes, if I may speak for you, and a documentary in which you yourself are a talking head.

[00:02:50] Yes, the only thing, the slight correction, Dr. Ann Burgess is not one of my personal heroes. She is, like I have worshipped this woman from afar for decades. She is the reason when I was an itty-bitty, also a theater student like you, Sarah, and pursuing a different life,

[00:03:13] I was fascinated by the mind of the serial predator. I had been since I was a very young kid and grew up in an area where I kind of was inundated with various serial killers growing up in Gainesville, Florida. Like it just sort of was in the 1980s.

[00:03:30] Yeah, it was just sort of like we're all like just getting over Bundy and here comes Rowling and you know, and so I've been fascinated by them and I did not know what it would look like to build a career in some way that had to do,

[00:03:47] like I did not know what that would look like. I just wanted to do it and then I learned about Dr. Burgess at that point, you know in the mid-90s, they were just starting to release, you know, the studies with the BSU and stuff

[00:04:00] and when I learned who she was and the work she was doing, I was like, okay that's what I want to do. I want to chase these guys down. I want to understand them and study them and help hopefully, you know, catch them faster

[00:04:14] and prevent them down the line and so I decided to go into law enforcement and to pursue at the same time to pursue a study of serial predation. And so I just I gobbled up everything I could of her work,

[00:04:31] everything in that field as the field was developing. I went to seminars. I think I went and saw Dr. Burgess speak a couple of times at different things and it for a very long time, I would think to myself, I don't want to waste this woman's time,

[00:04:48] but I want some sort of an excuse some sort of a reason to reach out to her and I would occasionally pull up her email address at first at Penn and then at Boston College and I'd be like, no, I don't have anything yet.

[00:04:59] I don't have anything yet. And then in 2019, I was assigned a case that I felt, you know, really just fell squarely into the wheelhouse of the things I had learned, you know, studying under her and I, you know, pounded a couple glasses of wine and sent an email

[00:05:17] and she called me immediately that same night and she said I'm working on a study about cases like this right now. I would love to speak more about this and in the five years since then I have worked on countless cases with her.

[00:05:32] I have guest lectured with her. I've spoken on panels with her and we she and I and two other forensic nurses created a cold case consultation group. We take cases from all over the world. So, you know, yeah, it was one of these that you know,

[00:05:47] they say don't meet your heroes and I'm here to say that there certainly are exceptions to that because she is she's just she is an unbelievably incredible human being and she's still going she is still studying still training still teaching us all that she's amazing.

[00:06:06] Listeners, we're going to use the phrase BSU. Most of you are going to know that it stands for Behavioral Science Unit, but just in case you didn't that is what that is. Before we dive into our discussion, Sarah, would you give us up?

[00:06:19] We know how much you love her. Would you give us a little potted history of Dr. Ann Burgess's career? She's now in her early 80s, I believe. I'm sorry late 80s. She is 87 years old. No, it's incredible and like I'm exhausted when I look at her schedule.

[00:06:41] She and went into nursing. She went to school for nursing at the University of Maryland. And while she was there, she became really interested in particularly in psych nursing and then the criminal psych nursing.

[00:06:56] She has told me one of the things that didn't come up in the documentary, but I think she and I have talked about it a couple times is that most people in our work have sort of like an origin story case,

[00:07:08] like people who really focus on sexual homicide or serial predators. There is like one case that they that like caught their attention and they just couldn't shake it. And you know, she has shared with me that that was the the Kitty Genovese case in New York City.

[00:07:25] The one that for so long is what we attributed to like the bystander effect and stuff. Now, of course all that's been blown out of the water that turns out not to be true, but that was a case that she felt really connected with her.

[00:07:36] So she started moving into forensic psych nursing. She was then in Boston teaching and really really saw a problem with the way rape was treated publicly and she felt that this was this was carrying over to the way victims were being treated in an ER setting in particular.

[00:08:00] And so she initiated, she and Linda Holstrom, one of her colleagues, initiated this clinical rape study and essentially it served as the foundation for what we still do in trauma-informed rape interviews, you know, in a clinical setting, but now also like if a department is well-trained,

[00:08:20] it should be how, you know, officers or agents are engaging with the victims and stuff. And that was what kind of kicked it all off. And she was working, she was working and teaching and doing research papers

[00:08:31] and this and that and in this sort of like parallel existence, Robert Ressler and John Douglas were these FBI agents who were part of the BSU, the Behavioral Science Unit, and they were, this was in the 70s,

[00:08:47] they were, you know, trying to teach other departments the stuff that they knew, but it was still pretty rudimentary. And they were speaking with some detectives one night after like after their training stuff and just like getting beers or whatever

[00:09:01] and Ressler mentioned that he had this idea about interviewing murderers to kind of get a better understanding of the way they think. And one of the detectives who was there, I believe this was Los Angeles, was not only a woman, but was also a nurse.

[00:09:17] So it was a female detective who also had a degree in nursing and she had read about Anne's study in one of the journals, one of the scientific journals. And she said to Ressler, if you're really serious about this,

[00:09:30] you need somebody to help you put this together as a true research study. You should reach out to this woman. And they did. And that was, you know, that was the beginning of this long,

[00:09:43] I mean, and this is what the show really goes into in detail is about the development of the work that they were doing there like one by one to start to piece together these interviews

[00:09:53] and begin to pull information out of them that could be studied with like true scientific methodology and try and get something useful out of it. And those initial studies, the very first study involved only 36 killers

[00:10:12] and a lot of the information from that original study is stuff that still lives in lore. It still lives in like the legend of serial killers and stuff, but a lot of it has actually been disproven not because they got it wrong,

[00:10:26] but just because it was the first study with a small sample, you know, and then as you grow, if you're an honest scientist, you're going to keep developing that and that is what the field has become. And now there are just like countless splinter disciplines of criminal psychology

[00:10:43] that are all rooted on the work that this team did, but in particular Dr. Burgess who made sense of what was there and found a way to make it useful rather than just like anecdotal that these guys could maybe occasionally apply to a crime.

[00:10:59] Yeah, so now and she's still teaching at Boston College. She still teaches a full course load. She is, you know, like I was saying to you guys before we have this consultation group that we work on all these cases. She works on multiple research studies.

[00:11:16] She has, she's the cutest thing in the world. She like every time I visit she makes me tuna salad sandwiches because I, you know, she asked once what my favorite sandwich was and she has never forgotten it. So I get tuna salad every time I visit.

[00:11:29] But she also recently started doing a lot of work diving into abuse in elder care homes, sexual abuse in elder care homes. And it does, it always makes me giggle when she's like these poor, these elderly people are being mistreated and I'm like,

[00:11:47] Anne some of them are younger than you, but no, she's just amazing. She is truly good and she is funny and smart and kind and the world is lucky. The world is a better place because of the work that she has brought into it.

[00:12:04] Yeah, I honestly it's part of the pun very criminal that I didn't know about her or about the real her should I say until this documentary because you know, John Douglas, Kessler like the I mean we know about them like the books, the movies, the TV shows, Mindhunter.

[00:12:32] Yeah, I mean at least Wendy Carr is a good character in Mindhunter which is you know based on Anne in that. Yes, which I figured out watching this I was like, wait a minute. Yeah, so it's just shocking that like I didn't know more about her

[00:12:50] and that's coming from someone who has a master's degree in forensic, like in forensic DNA and serology. So it's like I love this. I loved three episodes how they unfolded it. I do have some nitpicks, but basically everything Sarah just told us was perfectly laid out

[00:13:10] in the first part about her like her background how she got to the BSU like her research just hearing about how rape was thought of back then was I was like, oh my gosh like again knowing something

[00:13:29] and then kind of like be it being presented to you through a documentary with like archival stuff like it's totally different. I was like man like you don't realize how like Stone Age that thinking was back then,

[00:13:45] you know what I'm saying compared to where we are now even though we have a lot, you know to go further but like that was very very interesting. It almost it reminded me like Kenzie in his work almost, you know, so I thought that was very very interesting

[00:14:05] and then you know the second episode it's like her catching the killers and then the third episode they try to you know, they try you know, they try to be like oh now she's kind of defending it

[00:14:15] but it's like they can't really be have an ending because she's going. It's hard to tell you know the story of a 60 plus year career. Yeah your career or no, I guess 60 plus your career in three episodes and I think you know,

[00:14:32] I think if they could have done more episodes they would have you know expanded out on a lot of that. It would have been cool to see like her individual work on some of these cases.

[00:14:42] Like I mean they give everybody it feels like ID Discovery gives everybody a show. They could have given her a show but I'm pretty sure she you know, she doesn't want the spotlight and she wants to actually help people so it makes sense to me

[00:14:53] but man I was so intrigued especially when they got to the cases that she worked on. I was so intrigued about that. I just wanted to know more. Based on a book Killer by Design that she did which has more of her case work in it.

[00:15:10] It's yeah, I definitely recommend and it's a great read. It's a page-turner and it's got some just really fascinating cases that she worked on. That feels like a hard copy type thing I gotta get. Sorry, sorry, sorry.

[00:15:25] That's alright. I mean you say Stone Age attitudes and thank goodness for people like Dr. Burgess and her in particular working to change the attitudes, the treatment and so on of victims of sexual assault and serial predators

[00:15:44] and yet we have a documentary like Victim Suspect which is contemporary which is sexual assault victims being turned into suspects in false accusation cases and you also have a politician who is up for election who says that rape is an inconvenience.

[00:16:07] Well, we've got a couple of them on one ticket. I'm not sure which one you mean. I'm talking about the little one not the big one. The little one. I don't want to say his name, but I mean it could be any of them

[00:16:20] but the quotation of that rape is an inconvenience and that women who are victims of domestic assault, domestic violence should stay in the family and you think why do you think that? Anyway, I digress. But it was so it was startling to me that yes like Mari,

[00:16:42] I did not know her name and you know more shame to me but I also reflected like there's an amazing moment where there's a photograph of all the people who've been working on this work and it is a group of men at a table looking at the camera

[00:17:03] and Dr. Burgess is nowhere to be seen and it just made me think about people who say well, they're no great Renaissance painters who are women. There are no great poets from the past who are women. This is how you erase that history.

[00:17:18] You don't have to make it an active campaign. You just have to leave people out. You have to leave black people out. You have to leave people of color out. You just leave them out and then people say well, where's the great Latina poet?

[00:17:33] Well, we now know them. They've always been here. You just have to not mention them and what to me was one of the I don't know her but it seemed like such a fundamental part of her was she's shown walking briskly up some stairs

[00:17:50] to go and teach one of her classes and saying that she didn't mind not being in the photo because it was the work that was important. How did that strike you Sarah?

[00:18:00] It struck me. Here's what I will say about that is that I have had private conversations with her that I wouldn't divulge. I wouldn't say that it wasn't that it like that she was like,

[00:18:14] oh, it's totally fine, but that it was like it was more there isn't really time to focus on that and if I can only pick one or the other I'm just going to do the work and I definitely sympathize with it.

[00:18:27] It's funny because I have I got a piece of hate email from my reaction to that exact moment in the documentary and I didn't think it was that you know, it was on and on about what a man hater I am and everything

[00:18:40] because I said that that photograph is rage making to me because these guys are all staying around looking so powerful and it didn't even occur to them even the ones who I think respected her enormously like wrestler

[00:18:52] and Hazelwood and Judson Ray who was the first black profiler with the BSU this. I mean he is incredible. This is a man who somebody attempted to assassinate him his his like wife hired people hit men to kill him.

[00:19:09] He got shot in this hotel room in Atlanta while he was working on the Atlanta child murders got out of the hospital and then caught his own like hit guys who didn't like these people are there are some really incredible people in that picture.

[00:19:23] I don't discount the work that you know that they did but it still felt like did it not even occur to you to ask and even like the article, you know, yeah anyway, so yeah,

[00:19:36] I'm a man here I guess because I said that which I don't give a shit like it's it's fine. If that's your takeaway from that, but I don't I don't think that it wasn't that it didn't bother her. It's just that it was like well if you know,

[00:19:53] if I can only do one or the other I'm going to do the work rather than the Glory and I think that that is why the work is has continued for as long as it has

[00:20:02] and I would like to think that I mean one of the things I talked about with the filmmaker a lot and you know, obviously in three episodes are going to put everything I have to say in

[00:20:12] but is how much and I have talked about what has changed in the years, you know, because when I came into law enforcement, it was like kind of the tail end of her work with the BSU

[00:20:23] and like that collaboration and stuff and how much how many of the like I say survival tools. I don't mean like terrible things were going to happen to us, but I mean just like how you got to get along go along to get along

[00:20:36] and in order to do the work and everything like that and the tricks and the the trades and stuff like that that you have to do in that environment and it was interesting every woman is nodding along. Yeah about how many of them were exactly the same

[00:20:51] and I think in that moment it you know again, I don't want to speak for her and I'm not going to you know completely telltales out of school, but I think it was just a matter of like if I can only pick one or the other.

[00:21:00] I'm going to pick the work every time and I do feel I feel the same way about that. Mari why now? Why do you think this? I mean, I don't know the answer but let's discuss why why are we getting this documentary now do you think?

[00:21:16] Because it's a story that needs to be told like we said we didn't we didn't know this and we know everything else. I think that's kind of the biggest thing to me and why we keep going back to the picture

[00:21:26] and keep going back to the men on the case being very well known like in this documentary. They talked about how how how these how the this unit had inspired like silence of the lambs, you know, I'm pretty sure it probably inspired criminal minds.

[00:21:42] I'm assuming like it's almost 100% like some of them are the kids actually lifted straight from it. Yeah, nice exactly. So it's like we know about everything else except for her like that seems like you said intentional, you know, so I like that somebody especially the documentarian here

[00:22:01] like really decided to shed light on a little known figure who has a big impact to the criminal profiling world. It was time. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, and I think there's that that thing too of a person's story isn't finished until until it's finished.

[00:22:21] But if you wait till then you can't talk to them. So for me the timing is I mean they could have interviewed her 30 years ago, but now there's such a sweep of the world her work changes in how victims are.

[00:22:39] Well, we hope victims are treated or we're certainly working for that and speaking for that. It just seems so perfectly time. That's why I asked the question Sarah. Why do you think it's now? I mean logistically it's now I think because Mindhunter did spark an interest in her

[00:22:59] but people just didn't realize that it was an interest in her right like when I like that is something that before this came out even before her book came out when I would speak to it like my life speaking events

[00:23:11] and talk about like my mentor and stuff says woman. I would always say like the character Wendy Carr is based on her and there would be these like gasps of recognition. Everybody knows this character everybody thinks she's a badass

[00:23:23] and she totally and like the thing with Mindhunter is their personal lives are fictionalized, but the casework is really is pretty spot-on and and so I think there was a little bit of excitement around that. I think when and decided it was time to write her own book

[00:23:41] and write her own story that that that you know that coupled with the like the excitement about a person like her who they just did not know was a real person, you know made that it made sure that it landed at the right time now.

[00:23:58] I can say there was a whole different film team at one point interested in optioning the book and they said to the to the to Anne's book agent. We really really love this. We really want to tell this story.

[00:24:14] How much do you think we could get John Douglas involved? And her agent was basically like yeah, we're going to go ahead and not have any more conversations with you. This is not this is not his story.

[00:24:26] I mean and you know, it's the first one to say wonderful things about about Douglas, but we've heard that story and I just I am very grateful to her her lit agent for saying absolutely not,

[00:24:41] you know, this is her story and it's time for her story to be front and center. And so I think just the right film team came in who really really recognized the value in telling her story

[00:24:54] and what it could mean in broad terms not just in criminal investigations, not just the impact but you know what it means to hear women's voices again. Like you said Sarah just that that all we have to do is just not include them

[00:25:07] and nobody knows that they were there. It's so casual. The pivot to working for the defense which some on the prosecution side saw as some sort of betrayal or leaving the fold or something like that. Was it the case that intrigued her enough to work in that way

[00:25:32] or did it come the other way that the defense said who can we get and this this woman is perfect? I believe it was that way that the defense sought her out, but I you know, I can say and as somebody who also works for,

[00:25:49] you know, I work with police agencies and I work with innocence attorneys. Like I work both sides of that too. And again, I can't speak for Ann but certainly like the thing that I believe we share in common is

[00:26:03] I don't give a shit what side it's on what matters there's you know, I always say there's a difference between a closed case and a solved case and what matters to me is solving the case and whoever that means that I'm you know,

[00:26:18] whoever I am helping in that situation as far as I'm concerned. I'm helping the victim and that sounds hokey, but it's I mean it in my bones and I know that you did too. It probably never even occurred to her. I mean, yeah,

[00:26:29] you know like oh I'm going to get backlash like whatever but it's like it doesn't matter. That's not the work. I do. I'm not a police, you know in her mind. She's not a police officer. She doesn't work for the police FBI never paid her anything.

[00:26:42] That was all research grant. She didn't get paid by the FBI a penny in all those years. Yeah, and so at the end of the day like she's not beholden to anybody except the victim in her mind.

[00:26:57] I thought that was so fascinating. I did not know she worked the Menendez case and the Menendez case to me has gotten to the point where it's like, you know, I rolly it's like okay this case again,

[00:27:10] you know I'm saying but to like be surprised and figure out and find out another side to it like because I'm thinking I'm like, I don't ever remember. I remember the narrative of them being sexually assaulted,

[00:27:23] but I did not know that she was the person who had diagnosed it. And so I was I was like seeing it from seeing that case from a whole different point of view and it really made me like want to like kind of go back

[00:27:38] and rethink some of that. So rethink some of it was oh, yeah, that was great. It was good. I really like a lot of cases. We need to go back and look at it. That's like the journalists were in the room as the real case was unfolding

[00:27:52] and what would you know, Lorena Montello is one of these where it's like they were literally in the room and yet somehow the narrative we all got was that this crazy lady just went crazier.

[00:28:04] And it's like one of the most famous pictures of Lorena Bobbitt from the trial is this one where she's going like this and we knew because she's describing these Sarah's putting both hands around her and throwing. Yes, like I'm like I'm being strangled

[00:28:17] and she's describing this horrific incident of abuse where he's strangling her and she goes unconscious and like we knew then as we know now that strangulation in domestic violence is the biggest indicator that an offender will kill his partner and like so this was front and center

[00:28:33] and yet we all just went ahead with the other narrative and the same thing was true with Menendez that it was like there was a very obvious thing that people were really seriously discussing but somehow it didn't make it into the public conversation.

[00:28:46] I mean, I think it's very interesting both those cases. There's no argument that the cutting and the killing didn't happen. Right, but it is the surrounding circumstances and one of the most stunning sequences of the documentary in my mind are Eric's drawings

[00:29:08] and that has been beautifully seated by the documentary filmmaker showing children's drawings earlier on and how they were used in a kidnapping case and you think oh, that's interesting and then when you get to episode three you go, oh I see. I mean there's some of the...

[00:29:23] She does that a lot. She still does that. Yes, you know a technique that works really well with sexual assault victims. Yeah, amazing. I mean Karen Reid, very topical right now and again shout out Rebecca Lavoie who's on her read-a-thon on the Patreon of Crime Writers On.

[00:29:38] If you want to know blow by blow do join the Patreon. There's interesting stuff on that including Mari and I playing other people's problems but with Karen Reid there's such an immediate... Rebecca calls it ghost evidence. So the embedded taillight glass in his shirt is ghost evidence.

[00:29:59] There's no evidence that it happened but the prosecutor is using the phrase would it change your mind if you knew there was glass embedded in the shirt? What my meaning is is that we talk about these cases from the 90s. We do need to revisit them

[00:30:17] but also we need to look at how quick we are to just make a decision about someone like Karen Reid and know for a fact certain things. I mean Twitter is pretty outrageous, but there are people who know for a fact certain things that are not in evidence

[00:30:34] because they've made a decision on one side or another. The refreshing thing about this documentary is looking at someone who's coming at it from an academic and scientific point of view. Mari, this is your area. Yeah. She sets up the FBI agents to interview the serial predators

[00:30:51] by composing a series of questions that they are all asked and therefore you can compare question to question. And also Mari, we've been covering so many bad men. So great to spend this time in her company, don't you think? Yeah, like you said a good woman.

[00:31:08] And I also love this conversation about revisiting 90s cases because I can't remember if I'm pretty sure I recommended it on here. It's been 112 episodes at this point, 113. But Trial by Media on Netflix. So good. Very good. And basically all 90s cases

[00:31:30] definitely tells you how the media had a big, big influence on how those cases were perceived by the public often inappropriately. So yeah, back then it was just like the rise of the sensationalism of true crime. So to go back and revisit a lot of that stuff,

[00:31:51] yeah, sign me up. But Anne here, like following her journey and in episode three, we're in the Menendez case. We're in Cosby's case. I was like, wait, I didn't see this one. It was a slated appearance anyway.

[00:32:08] So when he's like, oh, well, I thought it was awfully rich where Dershowitz is on camera. It's a clip of him saying how like, oh, well, you know, I believe in battered women syndrome. Do you? Do you my dear? Because I'm pretty sure you don't.

[00:32:23] I do but not in this case. Somehow it's always an exception. Theoretically, yeah. I'll vote for a woman just not this woman every time. Oh exactly. Yeah. That's not quite who we meant. Yes, it's not quite what we meant. Like some other woman.

[00:32:39] But I thought it was funny to see Dershowitz's, oh God, I hate him so much, but have him pop up and be like, oh, well this would be different if they were battered women. This doesn't, this isn't that, you know? I was very happy to see Andrea Constand.

[00:32:53] She's been a very interesting figure since I learned about her and having her in this documentary, I think was very powerful. It's not that she stands for all victims, but there is an element of the violence that was done to her,

[00:33:14] followed by the violence of people not believing her, the vilification and the fact that she had to stand again and again and again and again to speak her truth. And we do not blame the many women and other victims who didn't, who said I can't do this.

[00:33:35] So there's a strength there and her advocacy is incredible. So I loved having her in the documentary. Mari, what other talking heads stood out for you? Candace DeLong. I want to ask her if she knows Candace. I was like, oh, friend. I don't know her through Anne

[00:33:56] and she may know me through Anne, but no, I've not met her yet. But I remember when I was in the Academy, that was another book I read was Candace DeLong's first book and I remember thinking like, oh, it's not going to be that bad with the guys.

[00:34:16] It's always a party when Candace pops up. She, yeah, yeah. I love her participation in True Crime. She always brings something to the table and it's always, it's like a bit of drama and I love it. She's made for it. Yeah.

[00:34:31] Yeah. Look, overall, I loved the subject of this documentary. I really thought that the outlay of the information was very judicious. Very, very well placed. I have a couple of tiny nitpicks. I sort of don't even want to bring them up because I liked it so much,

[00:34:50] but there's a sort of overlapping and voices visual that I could have done without because to me it didn't act. I mean, I know what the documentary filmmaker is trying to do, but it didn't sit with this very considered,

[00:35:02] the woman at the center of this is a very considered woman. Her B-roll is fantastic. She's putting teacups into a credenza, which I just thought. Yes, she is doing the research. She's teaching and she's putting away the teacups that presumably she's hand washed

[00:35:17] because you can't put them through a dishwasher. So that kind of careful outlay of information, we spend so much time with her just looking at her and listening to her voice and then to have this strange sort of media overlapping voice, overlapping visuals, I found a little disturbing.

[00:35:39] And the other quibble that I had, which you've solved for me is, it should either be shorter or longer. Right. I think there's a problem with the three episodes and I was thinking, oh, it's too long. It's actually not too long.

[00:35:51] It needs to be longer. It needs to be six parts or we need to somehow bring it a little tighter would be my, those would be my only things. What about you Mari? I honestly did not have a problem with the length of the episodes.

[00:36:07] They really did flow into each other. I hate Hulu ads, but like that was kind of weird to me. I don't know if this, tell me if this came across to you guys, but I don't know who places the ads where,

[00:36:21] but like right when you would come off an ad, it felt like it would be placed in a place where the information was like boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. Did anybody get that? I can't do ads. Okay, so maybe I'll pay the extra five bucks or whatever.

[00:36:35] I'm extravagant. I do know. The ads annoy me. Girl, I'll give you my login. You can set up your own profile on mine. Listen, I'm like, I will not reward you for annoying me. So I will sit here and I will, I'm that stubborn.

[00:36:52] I will watch this ad because you're not getting this money. But I support that. I do support that, but I just can't. They make me mad. Because it takes me out of it, you know? And I think that's what it kind of was because like again,

[00:37:06] I don't know where if they auto-generated where the ads were, but it would be like something like when they were talking about the case about the two boys who like went missing and how like they got the profile wrong after the first boy went missing

[00:37:20] and then the second boy went missing and she came down there. They did a careful methodical profile. It was like, I was like, yeah, I'm getting into this. They talked about the methodical profile, go to an ad, come back from the ad, they caught the guy.

[00:37:34] I was like, wait, what? Yeah, I was so confused. I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. I had to like rewind them a couple times and I just kept noticing like it was always right around the time an ad had just came off.

[00:37:47] And I was so, I was like, how did this happen? So like yeah, and they're like, okay, all of a sudden we caught Joe Bear and it felt, I don't know if it was because of the ad placement, but it really did feel disjointed.

[00:38:04] And now that I'm talking it through, I think it could have been, might have been that because it really felt like we were building a story and we were building, like we're chasing the killer. We're coming after them. And then all of a sudden we caught them.

[00:38:17] And it happened like that with Simonas 2 almost as well. But I think that one was because it was going from episode 1 to episode 2. Episode 2 immediately opens with his capture and stuff like that. So maybe this was a long form. They did long form document like a documentary

[00:38:40] and then they decided where to cut it. Plans it out and then the network just sticks the ads in where they think. And so there's no artistry to it. But I think that is in the documentary, the docu-series as well, Mari,

[00:38:53] that we get her work and the BSU's work and then we get the capture. We don't get the procedural stuff in between. That's what I love. But there's so much to get through, which is why I'm now asking for it to be longer,

[00:39:07] which you don't often hear from us. That makes sense. I see what you're saying, Sarah, because it's like it's basically going from theoretical profile till we caught the guy. Yeah, and they kind of like yada yada yada. Yada yada. Like a pinto. Yada yada.

[00:39:26] He was arrested and he was a- Yeah, that makes sense. Okay, that makes sense. I think that's what it was. Mm-hmm. So let's get to our ratings. Sarah, how many magnifying glasses are you going to rate? Mastermind, rethink like a killer out of a possible five? Question mark.

[00:39:42] I've given it a five because I loved it. I mean, I understand what you're saying. I think maybe being even a little bit inside the process and just having a ton of respect for Abby and what she was working with.

[00:39:58] I think they probably did want more time with it and the network's going to do what the network's going to do. So yeah, it's five for me because I just think her story, it's just long overdue to be out in the world.

[00:40:13] And I thought that Abby did a beautiful job telling her story. And Mari, how many magnifying glasses will you give this docuseries? I'm going to give it a 4.5. Five for Abby, 0.5 taken off for the network because they always do this. Me and Sarah always talk about this.

[00:40:30] They cannot get the perfect number of episodes correctly. But other than that, it was great subject matter, great production, amazing talking heads, yes. And something I didn't know. Like a lot of stuff that I had never heard of, which was amazing. How about you, Sarah?

[00:40:54] Yeah, I'm a 4.5 as well. A million magnifying glasses to Dr. Burgess and the documentary filmmaker Abigail Fuller, I think is very, very accomplished, particularly because I come from a drama background, seeding material through earlier episodes that pays off in unexpected ways later on. I like that very much.

[00:41:15] I think one thing that podcast series have over television series is they can be five episodes, they can be 12, they can be three, they can be four, and then two more come a year later. As you just did an update on yours, Sarah.

[00:41:32] And so it has more flexibility. I understand why television series don't have more flexibility, but we would ask them to maybe think about how they can solve the three episode problem, we're going to call it. Sometimes the three episodes work perfectly. Here, Abigail passes out the information perfectly,

[00:41:55] but left us wanting less or indeed more. So 4.5, which to me is an excellent, excellent recommendation. All our listeners I know are going to love meeting Dr. Burgess. I'm sorry, Sarah, that just made me chuckle a little bit because I remembered the last thing we just all reviewed

[00:42:16] was the jinx part too. So like you're asking for more. We got six more parts of that. It made me think of Pride on the set with Nickelodeon. Yes, exactly. Less is more. Natalia Grace speaks again, less is more. Sometimes you get it right.

[00:42:36] And maybe the jinx part too could have been one episode. Just saying, just saying. There was a very popular one on HBO that was like 12 episodes. The Vow, the first season of The Vow. Oh yes. I mean, she just wouldn't stop.

[00:42:55] Were they trying to give us the feeling of being completely overwhelmed and trapped? I think we're in the cult now. It's like we were in the cult. So Sarah, what do you have to recommend to our listeners today? What have you been watching, reading or listening to?

[00:43:13] I can stick with the theme and say everybody should read A Killer by Design because it really is for those who do want more of her work. It's a deep dive into a number of cases that she's chosen, kind of her favorites as it were from her career.

[00:43:29] And there's just a couple of them in there that really rocked me that I had never even heard of. I mean, a dude pulling women into the underground in Philadelphia through the subway system and committing attack,

[00:43:40] stuff I had never heard of, truly terrifying stuff that Ann worked on in her years at the VSU. And then again, some of the stuff after leaving. And it's just a beautifully written book. Ann wrote it with another writer, S.M. Constantine.

[00:43:58] He's just lovely. He's in the documentary. He's just a lovely man. And I think he did a great job, the two of them, crafting her more detailed work. Fantastic. And Mari, what do you have to recommend? Man, I've just been bouncing all over the place with different tonally,

[00:44:18] like different shows between Big Brothers starting or my reality TV fix is coming in. I've been watching, I've been revisiting Rich and Shameless. You know, we covered that, Rodman's Stolen Millions. I've been watching some of the other ones of that.

[00:44:38] And then I think another show called What Really Happened. Also, I think all those are on Max basically, except for Big Brother. And that's like it takes like well-known cases and tell you like what really happened.

[00:44:53] I watched the episode about the woman who created the movie Waitress and how she was murdered. Like that was like so heartbreaking. So I'll send the link for Sarah. But like I've just been bouncing around tonally.

[00:45:09] It was like one minute I'm feeling true crime, next minute I'm knee-deep in reality TV, especially like the love shows are just wrapping up too or gearing up. The Bachelorette is back on. So, you know, my recommendation is change it up.

[00:45:25] You know, if you've been watching one thing for too long, change it up. Try something different, especially if it's true crime, because we can get into the muck here, you know, and you know, times are about to get like hard.

[00:45:37] So remember to watch something happy once in a while. There is another show that dropped on Hulu two days before Anne's documentary and that is Sasha Reid and the Midnight Order. Yes, we're going to be covering that.

[00:45:53] A friend and a colleague and I work with her actually in the group that Dr. Burgess and I created and Sasha and I are collaborating on some stuff now and she's just, she's also amazing and just this really, really smart woman doing important work.

[00:46:08] And I think people will really like that one too, but it is totally, it's different. It's a little easier to digest in a way than some of the real dark like stuff that, you know, that we get into with these types of series.

[00:46:24] That's great because we're looking forward to covering that and your endorsement makes me very happy. So Mari, I've taken your advice before I even heard it. I'm watching Matthew Inman's animated series Exploding Kittens. It's on Netflix.

[00:46:40] So if you know his work, I've been reading his work for years. He is the oatmeal. He is incredible. He sees into my soul and then he draws pictures of it. So God is up for a performance review and the board is unhappy

[00:46:56] and he is sent to Earth to do good and he arrives in the form of God Cat, talking cat with some God-like abilities and the devil isn't far behind. Satan Cat is also on Earth. It is fantastic. Yes, it's animated. No, it's not for children.

[00:47:16] At Crime Scene we're eager to hear your feedback and suggestions for future episodes. You can follow Crime Scene on Twitter at Crime Scene R-H-A-P. That's S-E-E-N or email us at CrimeSceneRHAP at gmail.com.

[00:47:31] We're also on TikTok at Crime.Scene and all other social media at Crime Scene Podcast. Please remember to subscribe to our feed by going to RobHazelWebsite.com slash crime feed. It makes a big difference. Sarah, what do you have going on and where can the people find you?

[00:47:51] The people can generally find me, the sort of the place in the social media sphere that I live is Instagram and it's just my name backwards, Kayln Sarah. I am very excited to be able to say that last week

[00:48:06] and then coming up day after tomorrow will be the second of the two update episodes on the first season of Why Can't We Talk About Amanda's Mom? And then I am not allowed to say more than that,

[00:48:21] but I will say keep like make sure you subscribe to Why Can't We Talk About Amanda's Mom? Because maybe a week or so after that, maybe there will be an announcement about something new. Maybe. Mysterious.

[00:48:40] I can definitely recommend that podcast if you haven't listened and go from the start and by the time you get there, there may be an update. Well, there may be an update and also maybe new content. I'm not saying that out loud.

[00:48:56] Oh, no, you're not saying that out loud. Our listeners did not hear that exclusive. And Mari, what have you got going on? Where can the people find you? Well, every week I'm over on the Hot Dee Westrose Kickback on RecapKickback.com.

[00:49:13] Me and Chappelle have been diligently going through House of the Dragon and recapping it directly after it ends. It's been a wild ride. It's been so fun. We have two more episodes. We had a great guest just yesterday with the war dog from Survivor.

[00:49:32] He did an in-depth like in-depth history of dragons from the book. Like it is a can't miss episode. So you can just go to RecapKickback.com to subscribe wherever you listen to podcasts or you can go to YouTube.com slash at RecapKickback and watch us on there.

[00:49:52] It was it was a blast talking to War Dog. He was so excited to tell us about those dragons. It's it was great. Other than that, you can find me on Twitter at MariTalksTooMuch.

[00:50:03] That's two like the number two where I am mostly just tweeting about Big Brother right now. Big Brother started. I am in the thick of it. I'm on the BB Streets. I was on the premiere recap for the first episode of Big Brother.

[00:50:17] It's always fun getting together over on RATP because we know reality TV and we know Big Brother and it's going to be a great season. So make sure you follow me if you like all that stuff. Sarah, where can the people find you?

[00:50:32] Well, the people can follow me at Sarah Carradine on all the things Twitter and Instagram being my main places. I hopped onto a date with Dateline's live feed to track down the clues and discuss the strategy in Claim to Fame Season 3.

[00:50:46] We had a lot of fun over there. They're doing streams every Thursday with various guests discussing who on earth these people could be and the chat very much gets in on the action. So that was lots of fun. Over on Silent Podcast,

[00:51:01] I'm covering The Traitors New Zealand Season 2. Episode 8 just dropped and it might be the single most incredible episode of any Traitors series anywhere and I've seen them all so I should know. Please listen. And I'm about to wrap up my coverage of Taskmaster Australia Season 2.

[00:51:22] The finale drops on Thursday. Mari, what are we watching next week? Next time on Crime Scene, we're covering the Pillowcase Murders with Omar Zaheer. Watch it on Paramount Plus and send us your comments and questions. Thanks to Sarah Killing for joining us, Will from America

[00:51:40] for the theme music and the whole RHAP team behind the scenes. Until next time, case closed. Not solved.