Crime Seen | Episode 108: The Contestant

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[00:00:58] Hello everyone, I'm Sarah Carradine, podcasting from Gadigal, Sydney. I'm Mari Forth. And this is Crime Seen, the True Crime Review podcast where we get to the heart of how true crime stories are told.

[00:01:11] You can get this fine program along with all the other fantastic reality TV content by subscribing at robhasawwebsite.com. We'd love it if you would subscribe to our feed as well. Please go to robhasawwebsite.com slash crime feed. You'll get your true crime on Tuesdays.

[00:01:29] If you've already subscribed, thank you very much. Sarah, you have a true crime update for us? Yes. So, a court in Florence has just reconvicted Amanda Knox for slander related to the 2007 murder of her roommate, Meredith Kircher.

[00:01:45] You may remember Knox was cleared of killing Kircher in 2015, but she retains a slander conviction for blaming the murder on local bar owner, Patrick Lamamba during police interrogation.

[00:01:58] Amanda Knox has been sentenced to three years, but as she had already spent four years in Paragia prison, she will serve no further time. Knox still asserts that police coerced her into implicating Lamamba. I was literally just thinking that.

[00:02:14] As you said that, I was like, wait, but I thought that they forced that confession. Okay. Well, I know I saw an interview with her when she was going back to Florence and she was just really hoping to clear that and get on.

[00:02:35] So reconvicted getting on what a life we're about to talk about another life that's been affected as well. Yeah. So last week we watched Dancing for the Devil with Nicole Horn. Sarah, what did we watch this week? This week we watched The Contestant on Hulu.

[00:02:56] It was directed by British director Claire Titli. But we can't venture into the wilds of early reality TV without our guest. She always says no to murder, but apparently yes to human rights violations. It's the incredible Shannon Guss. Shannon, welcome to the scene. Yeah, I don't. I'm squeamish.

[00:03:17] That's why crime seems hard for me. And this was horrifying. Yeah. It made me really sad, but I was fascinated by it. That's my thing with true crime is that if I start to venture, I'll go all the way down the rabbit hole.

[00:03:29] Amanda Knox was one once upon a time. OJ when OJ came out and I can't stop myself and it's not good for my mental state. And I'll definitely be thinking about this, The Contestant for a very long time. So yeah, I'm pretty scarred for life. Yeah.

[00:03:45] Protect your peace, you know, so we get it. So we're glad we could have you on for something that's not murder. Definitely disturbing, but not murder. So yeah, it was fascinating though. What? What? So your true crime diet is very picky, shall we say?

[00:04:02] You're not, you're not one to dive in. I do think that I'm interested in all of it, but I, as I am someone who's pretty sensitive, like I, I will, I will attach myself to something specific and not let go.

[00:04:18] Um, in a, in a way that is bad, like this happens with new stories in me as well, to the point why my mom is like, you have, you have to step away. Um, but it like, so basically my true crime diet is not delving into far

[00:04:34] but then Googling too much of it. Like once I saw you guys were doing Dancing for the Devil. Now I've stalked that so far that I was like years back on their Instagram, you know, far it's too far, but it's fascinating to me and yeah. Very fascinating. Yeah.

[00:04:51] That was, that was the very first thing. Yeah. Yeah. We're so glad to have you on for this one. So listeners, before we dive in, we want to let you know that the documentary and our discussion in part deal with suicidal ideation.

[00:05:04] So if that's not for you today, you can switch off and we'll see you next week. Uh, here are some resources which we'll also link in the show notes. In Australia, you can call Lifeline on 13 11 14 that's 13 11 14 or go to lifeline.org.au

[00:05:22] or you can go to beyondblue at beyondblue.org.au. If you are in immediate danger, call triple O. In the U S you can go to wantotalkaboutit.com or you can go to 9 8 8 lifeline.org or call 9 8 8 the suicide crisis line. If you are in immediate danger, please call 9 1 1.

[00:05:48] All right. So let's get to the documentary. So soon, Denpa Shonen was a Japanese reality TV show. The title means do not proceed crazy youth. The show was known for the extreme situations that participants were placed in, sadistic

[00:06:05] challenges and rule changes made by producers if they felt the participants were doing too well. In 1998, Tomoki Hamatsu, better known as Nasubi, meaning eggplant, was challenged to stay in a room naked while he tried to win prizes to the value of one million yen from magazine competitions.

[00:06:27] He spent 335 days surviving on competition prizes with heat, electricity, running water and initially a few crackers provided by production. He believed the footage shot of him during the challenge would be edited afterwards. He did not realize that he was being live streamed on the Internet.

[00:06:47] After achieving his goal of one million yen in prizes, Nasubi was blindfolded, taken to Korea for lunch and a day at an amusement park, then shut in a room naked to earn the equivalent of an economy flight back to Tokyo from Korean magazine competition prizes.

[00:07:04] As he rapidly approached that goal, producer Toshio Tsuchiya revised the goal to be a first class ticket. In all, Nasubi spent 15 months in solitude writing a diary and subsisting on his prizes. He never won any clothes except ladies lingerie that were too small for him.

[00:07:23] For context, Big Brother debuted in 2000 in the UK and the US, 2001 in Australia and 2013 in Canada. So Shannon, start with you just high level response to the documentary before we dive in more granularly. What were your overall thoughts? I loved it.

[00:07:43] I had done my thing where I'd gone down the rabbit hole of saying, I'm just going to stay up to do some work and then Googling it for three hours. So I knew a lot of what happened before I knew that I would be watching it and

[00:07:53] doing this podcast. And I'm really glad I watched the documentary because I felt like they framed it really well. I feel like Nasubi is obviously a very sympathetic character. So it's kind of easy to tell it from that point of view, especially against

[00:08:08] this Disney villain type character in the producer who was so evil. So I thought the storytelling in and of itself was great. The actual events could have been a Black Mirror episode. So it's fascinating. And I'm excited to dive into it because the

[00:08:28] psychological analysis of how it was done was probably the most interesting thing to me, like the fact that they were like, well, the door was unlocked. I was like, well, let's get into this because this was coercive control.

[00:08:39] So I thought psychologically really fascinating and it got me thinking and I'm sure will have me thinking for a long time. Mari, I'll ask the question we sometimes ask. Where's the crime? Unfortunately, there's no crime per se.

[00:08:58] It's almost like last week how you were talking about how there's no crime in running and operating a cult. It's the crimes working within the cult. For this one, there is no crime per se, but it's very morally and ethically not good, not right. Yes. Yes.

[00:09:20] Like Caitlin says, you deserve prison, but you won't get time. That's how I felt. Nothing happened to anyone who did anything bad. And it was frustrating. Exactly. And the producer, I swear he just came off like a cartoon villain to me,

[00:09:33] like him laughing, him sitting there explaining what he did to the Nishanbi and all of that and him laughing at himself for like, it was just, it was scary man. Like being able to control somebody so thoroughly where they stay in this

[00:09:53] room naked, all they can subside off of is stuff that they win to the point where they're eating dog food at one point. It's scary. And the fact that Nasubi didn't even know that like it was being broadcasted as he was doing it.

[00:10:11] He thought it was some like audition or something that I thought I also was still a little confused about of like what he actually thought was going on. I don't know if they explained it well, or maybe I just missed it.

[00:10:23] Maybe you guys can explain it to me, but it seemed like he said he thought it was like a tryout and he didn't think they were going to use the footage for anything. Meanwhile, they're using the footage live.

[00:10:35] They do eventually do live feeds where people could see him live. And I'm like, Oh my God. Like it's horrific. It's horrific. And I think, and that's funny coming from people who love big brother. I mean, I love big brother. But the difference is it's consent.

[00:10:51] You know what I'm saying? A little small thing called consent, you know, and him not knowing what was happening to him and what was going on that was and him being alone. Like he was alone for this whole time.

[00:11:05] I cannot imagine being alone by yourself in a room for almost 12 months, you know, getting out for a little bit and then doing it for three more months. I like, I can't imagine that's the worst type of punishment they do for prisoners. So very, very fascinating documentary.

[00:11:24] Yes, absolutely. I did do some side-googling and read a very interesting interview with Nasubi and the director Titli. So I will link that in the show notes, but I think there's a little, I loved it too Shannon, but there's a tiny criticism, which is I wasn't sure

[00:11:43] what he knew when he did know that he was trying to get a million in yen in prizes. He did know it was being filmed, but he thought it was going to be later edited into sort of more of a package.

[00:11:56] Whereas as we know, it was a weekly edited down eight minutes and then eventually because the audience is saying, oh, it's all rigged. He walks out of that room, I'm sure. He stays in a hotel. Yeah, he goes and stays in a hotel and he gets other stuff.

[00:12:13] So Suchiya invented live feeds, Shannon. Yeah, which you can see people are so fascinated by like the human condition. Clearly until now, it's a part of reality TV that definitely boyed Survivor and even do like a greater effect to Big Brother into 2024 and hopefully beyond.

[00:12:36] And I guess he, the producer knew to, I guess, kind of exploit that. I mean, I say that he deserves prison. I'm not going to get into my thoughts on prison. He definitely deserved to get sued, which he did not get sued.

[00:12:46] And I really want to talk about him because for 95% of the film, he is like cartoon villainous laughing at the torture that he was putting Nasubi through. And at the end, he kind of has a change of heart, which I thought was

[00:12:58] fascinating and would love to talk about. But in terms of as an example, to compare it to other reality TV and even something I watched recently, which was a Mr. Beast video, I've never watched Mr. Beast video. It was a 26 minute video that came across my Twitter feed.

[00:13:12] I watched the whole thing where he put two people into a room and they had like rations, they were closed. And like every 10 days or so they'd get the opportunity for, they were going to win $500,000 to split, I think, if they could last 100 days.

[00:13:27] And then like every 10 days, they could spend some of their money on something if they chose. And to compare it to that, which was still obviously very, very difficult, but like why did Nasubi feel like a prisoner?

[00:13:38] And this is where I feel like it's that element of coercive control because the two of the things that really stuck out to me was when they said the door is not locked. It's like, okay, but it was, but how? And let's talk that through.

[00:13:50] And then at the end, when he comes out and he's put in the blanket and he was like out of society, the first thing he says is I was tricked. So what in the 15 months or so in between that was like blocking his mind from just leaving.

[00:14:02] And there's a couple of things. The first being something I think was wielded very maliciously and with like extreme intent, which is a huge power imbalance from production to these vulnerable, aspiring comedians that they seem to be doing for a myriad of different shows.

[00:14:19] And that's why I think he was confused because I think those packages, they would do the expedition as an example and then film it and then show that content. So he didn't realize it was happening at the time because that was very

[00:14:30] revolutionary that would be shown at the time. I got that from the Googling beforehand. But yeah, that kind of power imbalance, huge factor of abuse. So I think that was maliciously utilized. And then this might've been a little bit unintentional.

[00:14:44] I'm going to give production quite a bit of grace in saying that, but yeah, what they did to him to compare it to the Mr. Beast video and maybe even some of the shows that we watch was the

[00:14:54] extremes of coercive control that factors you can include as deprivation. Clearly he had nothing like you could even see in the first couple of weeks, he was saying, I was just trying to survive.

[00:15:04] So the point where his brain could even function to the level of should I leave? He was way too far gone. And before that he was so depleted that it wasn't even a thought. Then degradation, stripping him of his clothes.

[00:15:15] It was such like, and that to the point where he's like eventually eating dog food, they took away his humanity. Then he can't have the agency to leave as unwise as it may be. And then the biggest one, isolation, to not have that context or one

[00:15:28] other person to like mirror back at you, you're so untethered from reality in society that it became impossible. Like it is I think somewhat intentionally in the power imbalance, in the way, in exploitation, in the lack of contracts and the lack of agreements and the goalposts continuously shifting.

[00:15:46] That I think is like kind of maliciously using kind of parts of this control and then possibly unintentionally just based on the spectacle. They use all of these elements of coercive control to make him a prisoner in the situation when he technically wasn't, but as we can see,

[00:16:00] very much was in many, many ways. And then on top of everything that you just said, also the whole, the hit of dopamine or serotonin, I'm pretty sure he got when he would win something. Yeah.

[00:16:12] That Pavlov's dog effect of yes, he's deprived of all of this, but once he wins something, it's probably a rush and probably something he wants to continue to do. So psychological, this whole thing. Mm-hmm. So you wanted to talk about this producer, Suchiya.

[00:16:33] Shannon, why don't you get us started on him? Yeah, I thought he was so interesting because for 98% of the movie even, he's a very messed up person, but like kind of like a one note character, but that note is a lot.

[00:16:48] Like this is like a sociopath and I'm not saying that's not true. Um, this is someone who was like a giant themes of Japanese television who did innovate. As I was saying, he invented live feeds, who was well ahead of his time and

[00:17:00] possibly ahead of what should be any time on so much of like reality TV production, knowing what people want in the worst possible ways, appealing to the worst of humanity on the things that really interest them, um, in a way that was so perverse.

[00:17:14] And you know, there was no complexity to that for most of the documentary because he's still laughing about it. He's so proud of it. It's very much like one note of this guy is purely evil.

[00:17:24] But by the end, when it turns, I really want your opinion, because I felt the complexity of then he says he feels bad enough that he would die if necessary and he reaches out to Nasubi and he connects with him and he

[00:17:38] helps him raise money so we can climb Everest again after he tried to. And everything had, um, you know, gone wrong due to the natural disaster that they had there. And I thought this was so interesting cause I'm like, is there's complexity

[00:17:51] in the character that he does feel bad, but he's still so proud. And then I'm noting as well that he is he just that obtuse or is it for publicity because even when he connects and Nasubi again, it's in front of

[00:18:02] people in a public place, if you're trying to save space, but I do feel like there was some remorse. So what did you guys think? Did you feel what, how did you feel like that character was kind of quote unquote resolved?

[00:18:14] I mean, for me, I, I couldn't forgive him. I don't think like, like you said, I don't think he learned much personally. He still, it still felt like he took it lightly to me again. He could say that he felt bad.

[00:18:28] He could have shown Nasubi like maybe that he felt bad. Maybe I'm sure he probably apologized. He apologized and all of that, but I don't know, man. I, I think he thinks he's a TV genius. I do.

[00:18:43] I think he was doing a lot of patting himself on the back throughout the whole documentary about like when they had to go to move him, when, when he has to, when he goes to basically announce that Nasubi won instead of

[00:18:56] just being like you won, he goes in there and starts popping party poppers at him for like 20 minutes before Nasubi's like, what is going on? You know what I'm saying? Like, no, I don't, I don't know. I don't believe, believe in redemption for him personally.

[00:19:12] He thinks he's a kind of TV genius. And in a way he is very, very, very successful show. I think that him saying now if Nasubi needed to, needed me to die for him, I would do it.

[00:19:28] I still see him with his producer's hat going, when, how would I film that and how would I do it? And what would the ratings be? Like it's still that idea of production for him.

[00:19:39] And we know from Nasubi that Nasubi still loathes him and he is the devil. But one of the reasons Nasubi agreed to do the documentary is he said, I don't want to hear you should sue them. I don't want to hear that.

[00:19:53] He wanted instead that the documentary would show you can have terrible things happen to you and you can move on and have a life and be of service. And I think to me that was clear in the documentary, what at first was like,

[00:20:11] oh, how appalling or funny or however you take his experience to be is. But then it morphs and moves and we get the fuller picture towards the end of the documentary. Mari, I wanted to ask you what you thought of the incredible technical work done.

[00:20:31] We know in the original Japanese that the footage of Nasubi had overlays of words and sound effects and a very excited narrator. And they've managed to remove the Japanese characters and put in English words and have Fred Armisen be the excited narrator.

[00:20:52] What did you think of that part, that technical part of the documentary? It was great because to me and my American centric mind, I was like, yeah, this is exactly how it was done. And then at the end, I saw it was narrated by Fred Armisen.

[00:21:08] I'm like, oh, yeah, that makes a lot of sense. It didn't even occur to me that all this stuff was happening in English and all of the little caricatures and stuff like that. I think it captured what those Japanese game shows are, like from

[00:21:26] what we know of them over here. Lots of crazy graphics, lots of bright words, lots of really weird sound effects. I think it was able to manage to capture that effect and adding an amazing voice actor like Fred Armisen as well. So I thought that was pretty cool.

[00:21:46] I truly did. And it didn't even occur to me that the production did it. It's like this documentary did that, not the actual documentary. I mean, they managed to track down some archival footage. They have a lot of stuff thanks to Nasubi's mother

[00:22:08] who taped everything and labelled it despite her shame almost. She did say when he went off to Tokyo to be a successful comedian, just don't get naked. It was wonderful. Yes. Shannon, what did you think of Kazuko, his mother?

[00:22:27] I felt in general, I was just thinking about her. I was just thinking how he was failed by pretty much everyone in his life, to the least extent, probably his family. But I'm thinking about how she's like, I didn't know who to contact.

[00:22:39] I'm like, well, you had 15 months. Like, surely this could have been worked out. But I guess, you know, and even like the friend was saying, I was happy for him, you know, I guess to an extent, you don't know necessarily if he wants to be there.

[00:22:56] He's wanted to be a comedian. This is his big break. He might never forgive you if you get them to like bust in there and be like, you know, he's being held captive. And as he said, especially before it was like live streamed,

[00:23:05] they were editing it down to make it look like, you know, the reality TV edit, you know, like, you know, the happy past. He would win the prizes. So she might not have had a great sense of how, you know, he was doing mentally.

[00:23:18] You would think not great considering the situation, but she might just be like, I just don't understand my son who would even enter into this in the first place. So I do think more could have been done to investigate it.

[00:23:28] But I felt bad for the family and that they had that shame, which was such an interesting part of it, like making him be naked again. Such a huge part of that degradation was so connected to the shame

[00:23:39] and connecting to his family, which was something he had wanted so much to get away from kind of his hometown of Fukushima and be like in the bright life, which he was. And this and I thought it was a great narrative to send him kind of back

[00:23:52] and have that be like what anchors him later on and what kind of saves him. So I felt bad for the family, but I felt from their perspective, from everyone's perspective, from the manager's perspective,

[00:24:01] he was like, well, we kind of send them off and just I'm like, no, that is your job. Where's the contract? That is your client. Like the manager, the manager. Yeah, yeah. The manager wasn't like, I feel bad about that.

[00:24:13] Like, no, you wouldn't if you not realize like 20 something years later that you're completely in the wrong that you failed as a manager. Yeah, exactly. Because again, I agree with all of that. I just have to remind myself that this is this was revolutionary

[00:24:27] television, like this is all stuff that we know. Big Brother, there's wall yellows who are trying to go over there and tell the contestants what's going on. But for here, like you said, the mom doesn't know.

[00:24:40] The last thing she knows is like he's going to go be famous. So she's probably sitting here thinking like, I can't believe he's thinking to this depth to be famous, not knowing that he doesn't know that he's being broadcasted. You know what I'm saying?

[00:24:52] So I think it being such a new thing with taping him and taping him 24 7 and live feeds and all that and the editing down, like you said, I don't blame his family. I definitely, like you said, blame his manager. What do you mean? You just sent him off.

[00:25:13] No contract. How much did he get paid for this? Do we even know how much? I do actually. Oh, I read it. I read it. So that was really also fascinating. So of all the compensation he got, including all the book sales

[00:25:28] and for that entire year in 15 months, he has received in compensation, he received 10 million yen, which is the equivalent of 100 K Australian 65 K US. So that's all of the ratings being there and all the book sales, which was he had five pretty much like bestsellers.

[00:25:46] Yeah, because they this was his diary. While he was in there, while he was in there. No, because they did it while he was they started while he was in there. He was right. One of the questions that I had when I googled it

[00:26:01] before I watched the documentary was I said that his diary has been a bestseller. I assumed that he had written a diary personally and had published it after and gotten all that money. One of the biggest surprises for me,

[00:26:14] because then my biggest question was, oh, but how did he even have like paper to write a diary? And I was like trying to work out he had like a pen for the sweepstakes. But no, I didn't realize that they gave it to him to exploit it further

[00:26:24] to publish the diary and seemingly genius. Almost all of these proceeds of that crazy genius. Come on. Again, it's the diary room and big brother. Yeah. Wow. This is really a slippery slope. So, Murray, we see him have his lunch in Korea.

[00:26:42] And then when he was at the amusement park, I thought you've been alone for 335 days. Not only are you out in the air wearing clothes for the first time. Not only are you seeing people not only are you in a country that doesn't speak your language,

[00:27:00] but now you're at an amusement park flying around on on these rides. I mean, what an extraordinary shakeup. But just talk a little about the according to the edited television that was seen, the producer says to him, OK, do you want to do it again? Get naked.

[00:27:21] And he immediately takes his clothes off. And of course, the audience that we see in Japan watching this all goes, oh, what? Oh, how incredible. We learned from him that it was actually a three hour argument. And Shannon, I think this is where your coercive control comes in,

[00:27:37] that he the producer is the master and he still took three hours to persuade him. How did you feel about him starting all over again in Korea? It was so angry, so incredibly angry. And yet how incredible that he even had the mental fortitude

[00:27:55] a year in as degraded as he's as he's been over 11 months to argue it for three hours, how upsetting that he that he had the willpower to fight it and was still beaten down with the little resources that he had.

[00:28:10] That makes me incredibly angry every time the goalposts were shifted. The one that made me somehow the angriest was when they changed into a first class ticket because he beat in the system. It's like then let him win.

[00:28:21] You know, like, OK, so now you've already changed it to be in Korea. And I don't think did he even understand that these goalposts are shifting? I don't think so. And he was doing so well, had to learn a different language,

[00:28:31] how to write in Korean to do it and succeeded so much that they had to change it. That made me incredibly, incredibly furious. So the poor guy. He eventually figured it out himself. He was like, yeah, I'm pretty sure I can't do anymore. I must. Yeah.

[00:28:49] For the first time, he says, I must be quite close. And it's actually on film and they go, oops, we better get him out of there. Yeah. Mary, talk about this extraction and the revelation naked in front of a studio audience with only his dirty,

[00:29:04] presumably quite smelly pillow for comfort. Oh, my God. That part I was like. It made me so sad for him because it's like so he take him back and he's like, he's like, OK, I'm out of Korea.

[00:29:17] I don't know. And they put him back into another room again. I don't know if they I guess this time he really did just get immediately get naked in that in that room. How sad? Yes, because that's to me, that's the saddest part,

[00:29:34] because it's like now at this point, it's just like it's his reality. And to me, at this point, this is like like a prisoner. This is like a hostage. This is somebody who's been taking hostage for several months, who's just resigned to their fate until like extenuating circumstances

[00:29:53] will come in and get them out. That's that's almost how it felt like to me, like he had been like like a hostage for so long that it's just like he's he's just at their whim because he goes into that that box that's on the stage

[00:30:10] that's made to look like a room, takes off all those his clothes and sits down. And then the box, they let the box up. The walls fall. It's a live stage audience. Everybody's in there clapping. It looked like a good 10 minutes.

[00:30:26] He's just staring there like what is happening? Like I felt I felt so incredibly bad for him. But also I was like the production value in all of this, like the presentation. Yes, the producer. Exactly. Like the whole audience obediently

[00:30:45] putting their hands over their mouths and not making a noise. It is ridiculous. Like to be able to capture somebody's miserable, miserable, miserable this like and package it in such a fantastic way, like you are a Disney character.

[00:31:02] Sushinya, you are like you are you are a villain to the highest extent because I did. I felt bad. I was like he clearly has no idea what's going on. The host had like trying to like it's like he's a feral animal

[00:31:13] because they don't know what's going on. And they're like tiptoeing to him like like this would be you've been we've been watching this whole time. It's like crazy, man. I can't I can't imagine the mindfuck of of just not knowing anything,

[00:31:27] not being around people to then being taken to another place to then being taken to another place. And then there's a whole studio audience. Like I cannot imagine. He had to have gone through a lot of therapy with his

[00:31:42] with his long unclipped nails because he never won a nail clipper and his long hair because he never he never won scissors. It was. And then his mother saying somebody put a blanket around his shoulders and I was so grateful to that person.

[00:31:56] I mean, that was incredibly moving because you think, yes, his mother is watching this, his mother is. This is her first sight of him back in in Tokyo. The first thing was I was thinking like the sensory overload.

[00:32:08] I remember in the second Victorian lockdown, I was locked down. We couldn't like see more than one person at a time. So I hadn't been in the space of more than one person in like four or five months. And not unlike that, I came to Sydney,

[00:32:24] which was like fully free and open the first day that the ward is open. I came to Sydney and then my lovely parents the next day threw me a surprise party, which was probably like 15 people.

[00:32:33] And like it was it was so lovely, but it was such a sensory overload for me. I mean, that whole night I was like, I have covered it. I mean, like the whole I was like, everyone's given me COVID.

[00:32:41] It was it was hard to like, I'd like to even be in the same room with a dozen or so people was such an adjustment. The idea that he had gone from being completely alone to being in this huge studio audience naked.

[00:32:55] I I can't even imagine that disparity. And then you think about the fact that he didn't know this was being broadcast. So he didn't even know that he was famous or that he was well known in any capacity.

[00:33:07] And so in one sense, this is in almost every sense, it's completely horrifying. But then there must be some small part of his brain that's like. I've got what I wanted. This was it right. I'm like a household name somehow against my consent.

[00:33:20] And I thought it was so interesting going into kind of the aftermath, how hollow that same felt actually not even hollow, like actively bad. Like, as he said, this was didn't train him to be a comedian. He wasn't famous how he wanted to be.

[00:33:30] And the brilliant line at the beginning, you know, there's a difference between making people laugh and them laughing at you. He wasn't famous on his own terms in any way. It was completely against his consent. And it was so it was so awful that while they knew him,

[00:33:42] they knew him for his suffering and they'd been condoning his suffering. So I thought that was such a fascinating part. And the fact that it is when he's given a blanket, which is nothing. But that's the first show of humanity that gets him to the point

[00:33:54] of him being able to have the agency to say, I was tricked, shows how little he had. So I thought that that was just fascinating from the perspective of the studio moment, which, yeah, you which was a huge moment. It's Kayleigh Cuoco for Priceline.

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[00:36:46] So, yes, we'll talk about what happens after this moment. The blanket, the eye was tricked. He goes home to Fukushima and the documentary seems to take such a such a distinctive turn. What did you think about the last, say, third of the documentary, Shannon?

[00:37:01] I thought they were trying to wrap everything up into a neat little package, which was difficult. You know, sometimes life is not super clean. I thought there were good parts of it. I think it connecting him to human connection

[00:37:14] and how important that is makes a lot of sense. I think it helps it. Nasubi seems like such a lovely person and obviously has done a lot of good. The fact that he was helping people now in various natural disasters

[00:37:24] and realized that there are people who really love him that he can make happy. It kind of it satisfied a bit of the wait, why do they like me? Are they laughing at me? That sense of real love and at least pride from his hometown seemed

[00:37:36] to really satisfy a lot of that, how we could actually meaningfully use that to help people and kind of like bring them joy when they were down. Felt meaningful to me, but I did feel like it was difficult to try

[00:37:47] and wrap it up. They try to make it quite triumphant. In ways, I think that succeeded, but in ways it still felt like maybe they could have been a little bit realer about how much he suffered.

[00:37:58] I got a lot more googling it from he said, you know, he couldn't look people in the eye, it was hard to talk to people, but there was even more of that, obviously, of the after effects.

[00:38:06] So I felt like maybe they could have addressed that with more of the kind of nuance and complexity of that rather than trying to be like he climbed a literal mountain and now it's done. Mari, what did you think about this heel turn that we get here

[00:38:17] in the last part? Yeah, I, I agree. I think it's like maybe if they would have delved a little bit more into his mental state, that could have been a lot more interesting. But everybody likes a happy ending, so.

[00:38:37] They had to stretch it to to try and give him that. What I found fascinating was that he was on Everest during the earthquake in Nepal. And the footage that they showed during the contestant was some of the same

[00:38:52] footage or at least at least the same angle of footage in the app, I think it's called Aftershock, the Everest earthquake. It's another documentary on Netflix. It's a documentary on Netflix about the Nepal earthquake and from the point of view of people who were on

[00:39:12] Everest at the time. So and I had just started that. I'm like, I'm like almost through with that. And I saw I saw the same footage. I was like, oh, my God. So he was there when they when that happened.

[00:39:22] And I I was really wondering to myself if he would show up on the other documentary. But I mean, I just felt like it was it was OK. Like they needed an ending. They needed an ending. And I think with him participating here,

[00:39:40] telling his story, I could see maybe he wanted it to end on a triumphant note. You know what I'm saying? So I guess probably be something like that. Yeah. Reclaim his power. I will say that I've said this on a podcast before, but climbing Mount

[00:39:56] Everest for me is one of my many, many, many pet peeves. The concept of climbing Everest for me is a pet peeve of mine, because mostly because I feel like it's kind of like an ego driven death wish.

[00:40:06] And then it's, you know, put in the same vein of of like heroism as people who do like real heroic things, whereas like really you climb the mountain yourself and actually put yourself in danger. And that's not really the end of the world.

[00:40:19] Yourself and other people in danger. I mean, this is why that's a big part for me as well. Yeah. Yeah. Danny Bryson on one of our brother podcasts, News AF is an adventurer and a climber. And he says always climb the second highest peak of wherever you are.

[00:40:34] You'll have a much better time and there won't be so many people there. Yeah, well, that's true. I mean, there's some I mean, it's part of like, I understand. I don't know enough about probably being ignorant, but there is some sort of like

[00:40:46] it's part of the tourism and it's part of the economy of Nepal. But it's also some sort of exploitation for the fact that it's people's jobs to have to take these tourists up the mountain as an amazing of an accomplishment as it may be.

[00:40:59] And it's not good for the environment of Everest. But anyway, so Everest for me is a pet peeve. But if anything, I feel like this kind of affirm my views. I had just been as simple as he climbed the mountain and now we solve that.

[00:41:09] That would have really irritated me. I would have been like, this was nothing. If anything, I'm against it. But if anything, I was like, yes, look at how broken this man is. And he thinks that climbing the mountain will solve

[00:41:20] all of the psychological trauma, which it didn't even do. I think that that's what was important. It was like, OK, so like, look how broken he had to be to even get to the point where he thought that would be the solution. And it wasn't.

[00:41:29] I did like that it connected to firstly, how incredible he was helping people through the earthquake. And secondly, how much he was doing it with Fukushima. And if anything, just realize that it's people who matter. Like it wasn't really about the mountain.

[00:41:40] He thought that would be a solution. Spoke to a brokenness in him, clearly, as we've seen through the movie. And then it was actually his connectedness to people and helping people that has really seen him through and made him realize his life's purpose.

[00:41:51] So I thought that was good. Had it just been about climbing the mountain, I would have felt that that was very hollow, even though I do agree, as you're saying, if he is reclaiming his story,

[00:41:59] it makes sense to be like it didn't just end there because how tragic. And I know that, like, as we're saying, life can be tragic. But if it's his story and he's the focus, yeah, I don't really want it to be tragic to him.

[00:42:10] And I want him to be able to sit there, do the interview, do the documentary and feel like it had a resolution. So the fact that the resolution for him was in people, I like that a lot. And I think that as neat as they can make it,

[00:42:21] that makes sense for him and is necessary for him. And I think practically, he just wouldn't have agreed to do the documentary had it not had that redemption. Who's for that agency then? Who's for that agency? To say yes or no to production companies. That's great.

[00:42:34] Not in a tough or some sort of resolution. Let him tell the story on his terms. That's great. Mari, did you draw what were your thoughts, your more global thoughts during and after watching this documentary about reality TV? Here we are in 2024. We are 26 years after

[00:42:54] a life in prizes, which was the name of the show. What about what have you had any global thoughts about reality television, which we're all very deeply invested in? I mean, I think it shows you how far reality TV has come in a sense like.

[00:43:13] Ethical reality TV is what I like to watch, you know what I'm saying? And I mean, it's a slippery slope for the big brothers and survivors. The amazing races of the world, but especially like something like Big Brother,

[00:43:28] because, you know, it originally starts as you're putting people into a house. You're you're they're creating a small society. And sometimes it's not beautiful and it can be ugly. And I think that's what drew a lot of us to Big Brother.

[00:43:43] And I think that's what drew a lot of people to a life in prizes. It's the ugliness on top of the triumph. Now, were they seeing the ugliness if they didn't have the live feeds? No. But they were seeing the triumph. And that is the same.

[00:43:57] The another head to the coin. But then it's but then you get to stuff like currently in reality TV where their blocking feeds when stuff that's bad is happening and stuff like that, you know, and it's like that doesn't help anybody if you're if you're not

[00:44:14] showing the realness, the ugliness and how people can get over it, then you're just hiding it. And, you know, it you're you're almost condoning it by by hiding it in a sense. And it just makes me think of just how

[00:44:31] so many people now are signing up for these reality TV programs and they all have their different type of reasonings for it, either to be famous, like maybe like Nasubi thought, or to want to play the game that they they want to that they applied for.

[00:44:48] And it's just very interesting. It's just as people who who literally study and break down reality TV, this definitely gave me an extra nuanced layer for something that is effectively the first reality TV show ever. And it makes me appreciate some of the stuff that happens now.

[00:45:05] And then it also makes me still side eye some of the stuff that happens now. Yeah. And I think we have it. I think we have it better as like when it comes to like US reality TV shows, UK reality TV shows, Australian reality TV shows.

[00:45:20] Because there have been reality TV shows where people have straight up died on the show and they just kept pushing. You know, it's like the show went on a few times. So very, very interesting stuff here. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:45:35] Shannon, you're the only one of us has actually been on a reality show. Were there any echoes for you or is the experience just so different that there's no connection? I mean, I do think this there's a spectrum of ethics in reality TV.

[00:45:50] And on that spectrum, this is like in the basement and everything's like on that line. Even to this to this day, I mean, like I was so interested in the audience. And I felt like the documentary probably could have gone a bit further into that.

[00:46:02] The fact that this was getting, you know, tens of millions of views. Like the only reason that the producer can be evil and do this is because it has people who want to see it, like who are so perversely interested again to this day.

[00:46:13] Two years later, watch Richard Hatch naked on an island and be fascinated by the dynamics in a different way. Like people backstabbing each other. But the fact that it was real, like the real part of reality TV is what,

[00:46:25] you know, would draws people to it and why something like this can be made. I do feel like this was particularly evil. And that's why I'm so interested in the audience. You know, I'd love to have even heard from people at the time. What a big day.

[00:46:36] Yeah. Like, so was it just not connected from anybody? Yeah. Just like we use like why were you obsessed with it? Like, were you was the eight minute package so wrongly edited that, you know, you just thought he really was that happy? You could never have known.

[00:46:51] You thought this crazy guy was into it like, you don't know this guy. Or did you suspect but not care? Well, I mean, and it must have been a plethora of things for tens of millions of viewers. That aspect really fascinates me mostly as a reality TV viewer

[00:47:05] of what we're condoning. So for where we're at with reality TV now, do you think it's quite different? I think obviously the biggest thing would be processes and protocols. You know, waivers and like signing anything,

[00:47:22] knowing what you are in it for, like that there's like a certain price. The transparency is the main thing. Like the fact that he was unaware of so much completely eradicates consent in a way that I hope consent is given, you know, on reality TV now.

[00:47:36] But I do think the biggest connector and something you can never get rid of is the power imbalance, because even in 2024, all of it like competing for a million dollars for people who want a million dollars and who want the dream

[00:47:48] from a production company who can take or leave them. Like at the end of the day, that is always going to be incredibly uneven. And there might be some some lack of ethics in or some exploitation in the fact that those people will push themselves to anything

[00:48:01] to get these kind of unattainable dream like things. So it is a slippery slope. It's not perfect. We're not like we haven't solved ethics on reality TV. And this did make me think about that. We're not where this was. But it does. That's one of the reasons

[00:48:15] in many things that I like go to war for quitters. Anyone should be able to opt out of anything at any time. We should not change their own life and consent in their own situation. And the worst thing would be people feeling like they're shamed

[00:48:27] into staying in a situation where they're not comfortable. And I think this really shows that maybe a lot of audiences have to watch it. So I do think that. The door is unlocked. Just walk through it.

[00:48:36] Exactly. And the fact that people can and that they have the will shows, that's good. That's progress. That's where we want to be, that anyone can do what they want to do in that situation. So I do think we've evolved through decades of reality TV.

[00:48:46] I think we're constantly evolving. Even if you look at what survival was to now, I think there's a sense of like it's a workplace now. It was not true in the early 2000s and that is constantly evolving.

[00:48:56] And sometimes something goes wrong and then it has to be course corrected. And then that changes it for the future. So that could happen again, like we're always on the journey with it. But yeah, the ethics of watching reality TV

[00:49:06] and being such a big part of this community, that really was so interesting to me. Mm hmm. So let's get to our ratings. So much to talk about, but an ongoing conversation, I'm sure. Shannon, how many magnifying glasses are you going to rate

[00:49:20] the contestant out of a possible five? Is it too much to give it five? Is that like a lot? Not at all. I really liked it a lot. And I do think that anyone who's interested in reality TV should watch it

[00:49:33] and it will make you think differently about reality TV and make you think in general and anything that's so psychologically interesting fascinates me. When I originally Googled it about a month ago, I remember because I Google and then the next day

[00:49:48] I went to my sister-in-law's birthday party and I regaled like seven people by basically recounting the entire thing. They were like, he didn't win any clothes the whole time for 15 months. Like it is a fascinating story and it's told very well in the documentary.

[00:50:02] So I would recommend it to anyone interested in anything interesting. And Mari, how many magnifying glasses will you give this documentary? I think I'll give it a four. I think I definitely like talking about it and breaking it down more than I probably liked watching it.

[00:50:19] I thought it was a good documentary. Maybe I'm just missing a little bit of murder. No. But I did. I thought I thought it was fascinating for something I never heard of. And talking to you guys have really like made me

[00:50:34] rethink some of the stuff I saw on there. So maybe I should go back and like rewatch it or do a lot of side Googling like Shannon did. But it it was just like so interesting to just see somebody just taken so low in a sense.

[00:50:54] And it's like it really makes you wonder, is like, would I have been one of those people watching it? Yeah. So, yeah, I liked it for four magnifying glasses. How about you, Sarah? Yeah, I'm a four as well. I take your point, Shannon, about the audiences.

[00:51:11] We do have Juliette Hindle, the BBC Tokyo correspondent. She's trying to give us context and to some extent she does. But it's a Western context, despite the fact that she's there and speaks Japanese and is immersed in the culture.

[00:51:25] I would have liked to have heard from a disinterested audience member, not the mother, not the friend, but someone who was watching it and like what they think now. And given the millions and millions of viewers, you could have found them.

[00:51:39] But then we try not to criticise the documentary for not being what we would do. I find the last third. It's interesting. It's necessary, but it's a definite drop in the documentary. I know they needed it because he wouldn't have made the documentary without it. And again, agency.

[00:51:59] But the more contemplative part of him just standing on a high part in Fukushima and looking over, there was a moment where the chair that he's been sitting on during the talking heads is empty. I found those more telling than sort of triumph of the will.

[00:52:15] I like you, Shannon, fine. I have a knee jerk reaction to Everest. There was a photograph recently of the queue to stand on the top. And I have read people talking about you get to the top, you basically have 15 seconds. Stand there, hold the flag of your country.

[00:52:32] You've had your photo done. Move on. And people die and not just the people who are climbing, who have all the money. One percent mortality rate at the moment. That's a lot. Not to mention the limbs lost. Yes. And people have to care for you.

[00:52:46] Like why? Why are we doing this? Life is hard enough anyway. Yes. Do what Danny says and climb the second highest peak. But yes, look, a four and to me a four is very good. I just had some thoughts about it. I definitely recommend it.

[00:52:59] Whether or not you're interested in reality TV, well, you're listening to us. So we have it. We have an idea that you like real things. It it leads to a lot of thoughts. Shannon, you said you did a whole lot of Googling before watching the documentary.

[00:53:12] What what did you draw from that that that we weren't told? Yeah, I mean, that way, the last third really snuck up on me. I didn't know anything about Everest. So that was like the part that was like a was new content for me

[00:53:25] because I had Googled everything else. I was like seeing again in a fascinatingly well made way. But seeing a story I had already done a lot of research on and then the everything was all new territory to me.

[00:53:37] I also like my everest thoughts they keep seeping out that I can't I can't control that. These are my feelings about it and I can't hold them back. The Googling, I mean, they got to a lot of it.

[00:53:48] I would have liked he went into a bit about how it was. I think he even said it was difficult to wear clothes after. He went into a bit about like talking to people. He said his voice was changed.

[00:53:59] I think that's true from what I Googled a month ago. Some interesting stuff that they didn't show that he won. They showed a lot of it, obviously, with like the dog food and how he had to cook his own rice.

[00:54:08] That was cool that he made that work as well. It's like go nuts, you'd be one win. Something they didn't show that he won. I think in a different order, he won all the components over time of like a TV,

[00:54:18] like a PlayStation machine, like the like PlayStation one at the time and like a car racing game. So once he got all of that, he spent days just playing that and did not write into the sweepstakes until eventually he had to like

[00:54:31] tear himself away and start entering the competitions again. So that was it. It really enraged me that he not only that he has to start again in Korea, but start again without all the stuff he'd won. That was upsetting to you.

[00:54:43] So and even the way the producer talked about taking him so high and pushing him down. That's great TV. It's so cruel. It was so cool. So, yes. Yes. Yeah. I recommend the AMA. That was a good one straight from his mouth.

[00:54:59] And then you said that you had an interview with him that you've seen. Yes. So we'll post post to those in the in the show notes. So Shannon, what do you have to recommend to listeners? What have you been listening to, watching or reading

[00:55:11] that has taken your fancy recently? You know, I'm so boring and basic. We love a basic bitch. I am. I'm and I am. If I can, I recommend a very popular movie that was nominated for an Academy Award last year.

[00:55:27] And that's how late I am to watching it. But I did love it. It does have a Korean tie in for the brief time you spend in Korea. Have you seen past lives? Yes. No, I heard it so good. Watch it.

[00:55:39] It took me a year to be like, I really want to watch it. I need like the perfect night where I'm like not busy, have no distractions. And I hugely recommend it.

[00:55:46] It was just like a beautiful movie that also had me thinking and it was just really amazingly well made. So that that's probably the thing I'd recommend most because otherwise, you know, I'm just being basic listening to Taylor Swift and would you recommend Taylor Swift to our listeners?

[00:56:01] Yes, I'd recommend Taylor Swift. Yeah. The torture post department. You need to like get into it. Don't just listen once and be like, no, you listen for like a few days and then you're like obsessed with it. So that's the recommendation. Yeah. Getting obsessed with things.

[00:56:14] We wouldn't know anything about that, Mari, would we? Yeah. No, Mari, do you have recommendations today for our listeners? Yes. Like again, some kind of like lukewarm recommendation. No, no, I am slowly still making my way through my maternity list as I have so much time.

[00:56:37] One thing that I just started watching that is kind of interesting is the Will Trent series. It's a series on it's on ABC. And it's just your it's your boilerplate, like copy and paste. Like he's a he works for the Georgia Bureau of Investigation and it's your

[00:56:56] boilerplate cop procedural. The only thing about it is it's called Will Trent. It's based on the Will Trent series of books that I am that I've been reading for like the past few months. Karen Slaughter is the author.

[00:57:13] The books are maybe I should be recommending the books, actually. The books are better there. They're on Audible. And if you are a fan of like your James Patterson's type, you know, that that straight up detective style books, then these are your books for

[00:57:31] you. I think I'm on book five or something right now. That's that I've been listening to them on Audible as I'm awake in the middle of the night. So check out. The Will Trent TV show is it's good.

[00:57:47] And they do have some of the storylines like the books, but they tweak it so much that I like I have to stop myself from being like this is completely different from the books, you know.

[00:57:58] But I think if I wasn't if I hadn't read the books, I think I would be I would I would enjoy it. I'd be entertained because it's kind of like over the top. It's kind of like over over the top cases.

[00:58:10] So check out the show, Will Trent on ABC and then check out the books, the Will Trent series by Karen Slaughter on Audible or wherever you get your books. How about you, Sarah? What's your recommendation? I'm going to recommend The Truman Show.

[00:58:27] It's a film came out in 1998, the same time as a life and prizes, although later in the year, it was directed by Australian Peter Weir. And it starts at Harris, one of my favourites, Jim Carrey and Laura Linney.

[00:58:42] And if you think you're not familiar with Peter Weir's work, if you watch films, you are. He also directed Witness, Dead Poets Society and Master and Commander, among many other films for Australians, they might most connect with him for an

[00:59:00] early work from the 70s called Picnic at Hanging Rock, which is part of our national psyche. The Truman Show is available on Paramount Plus in the US and Australia. They asked us to be about that in the AMA. Oh, about The Truman Show.

[00:59:17] Yeah, they asked if we'd seen The Truman Show. I'm going to find what they said. OK, have you ever seen The Truman Show? What were your thoughts on it if you've seen it? He said, yes, I saw the film.

[00:59:24] The only person who really understands the feeling of what Truman went through was me. He felt like it was my story. His life was much easier than what I had, but it was a similar situation

[00:59:31] that everyone was watching both Truman and me and he had no idea who were being observed. And then someone commented, much easier is the understatement of the year. So, yeah, that lack of consent is a big and the voyages. Great movie. It's a great movie. Amazing.

[00:59:49] At Crime Scene, we're eager to hear your feedback and suggestions for future episodes. You can follow Crime Scene on Twitter at Crime Scene R.H.A.P. That's S-E-E-N or email us at crime scene R.H.A.P. at gmail dot com.

[01:00:03] We're also on TikTok at crime dot scene and all other social media at Crime Scene podcast. And please remember to subscribe to our feed by going to Rob has a website dot com slash crime feed. It makes a big difference. Sure does.

[01:00:22] So, Shannon, what have you got going on and where can the people find you? You can follow me at Shannon Gates, G-A-I-T-Z. I'm currently covering the off season of Survivor in Summer of Survivor. Every week we do silly things. This week, we did Survivor Moms versus Mothers.

[01:00:39] Perfect timing with Mari having a second child. This is and you are both mother and mother. And next week, we're going to be spinning a bingo ball machine to two seasons. And then of those seasons, we're going to go through what the defining moment of that season is.

[01:01:01] It's not Survivor bingo, but we're calling it that. And just everyone doing silly things so you can check that out. And I post all about that. I'm also on the wish list with Mike Bloom coming up to talk about

[01:01:12] Survivor Amazon, which has one very familiar face in it that we may or may not want to see on Survivor 50. Tune in to find out. And yeah, that's pretty much it for me. But thank you so much for having me because it was so fun to talk about

[01:01:23] something a little different, even though it was still the horrors of reality television, but in different ways. And it was so fun to talk to both of you and I love the documentary. So thank you so much. Thank you for coming on.

[01:01:37] Mari, what about you? Where can the people find you? You can find me here over on crime scene, of course, every Tuesday with Sarah Kearney. But also the recap kickback is coming back and we are we're headed to Westeros.

[01:01:52] You know, we're throwing a party in Westeros for House of the Dragons. That starts in a few weeks. So me and Chappelle will be covering House of the Dragons our way over on the recap kickback so you can go to recap, kick, recap, kickback dot com

[01:02:09] to subscribe and to check us out or you can go to the recap kickback YouTube page. You can go to YouTube dot com slash at recap kickback in order to see us talk about them dragons. It's going to be so fun.

[01:02:25] And of course, you can find me on Twitter at Mari Talks too much. That's too like the number two. No matter what I'm doing, I'm over there. And at this point, I'm over there at all times.

[01:02:35] So go follow me over there if you want to hear my hot takes on a whole bunch of stuff, including the WNBA. All of a sudden, I'm a WNBA person all of a sudden. So, yeah, Sarah, how about you? Where can the people find you?

[01:02:50] People can find me everywhere at Sarah Carradine. Yes, I'm here on crime scene every week with the lovely Mari, who was missed, but she's back. And I too will be on the Survivor wish list coming up once we hit

[01:03:05] Nicaragua. So for some reason, my fate is tied to Fabio as yet again, I go to Nicaragua. So looking forward to that very much over on silent podcasts. Annabel Fiddler and I have just finished our recap of season two of

[01:03:21] Alone Australia. We had Titan Eden Porter come and finish that season for us as he started with us. I have finished Taskmaster UK season 17. Lots of things were on, lots of things are finishing. But Taskmaster Australia season two has started.

[01:03:37] And I'm covering that with a wonderful rotating band of little assistants, if that would amuse you. And Traders New Zealand ultimate faith for Sam Smith and I are covering the Traders Quebec in a little show we call What Did They Fronce?

[01:03:54] Because for some reason, we thought it was a good idea to listen to it and read it in French and we don't speak French. But look, we're getting there and the finale is coming up next week. So Mari, speaking about next week, what are we watching next week?

[01:04:11] Next time on crime scene, we're covering How to Rob a Bank. You can watch it on Netflix and send us your comments and questions. Oh, no murder, but a little bit of larceny. I think there still might be a little bit of murder somewhere.

[01:04:23] I think there might be a little bit of murder. Yes, yes. They the trailer says it takes a dark turn. Yeah, Mari and I know what that means. So thanks to Shannon Gus for joining us. Will from America for the theme music and the whole

[01:04:37] RHAP team behind the scenes. Until next time, case closed. I'm Victoria Cash. Thanks for calling the Lucky Land hotline. If you feel like you do the same thing every day, press one. If you're ready to have some serious fun for the chance

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