Crime Seen | Episode 106: Cooking Up Murder

[00:00:24] I'm Sarah D. Bunting sitting in for Mari Forth. I'm Sarah Carradine podcasting from Gadigal,

[00:00:30] Sydney. And this is Crime Seen, the True Crime Review podcast where we get to the heart of how

[00:00:36] true crime stories are told. You can get this fine program along with all the other fantastic

[00:00:42] reality TV content by subscribing to robhasawwebsite.com slash wrap-ups feed. That's our H-A-P-U-P-S feed.

[00:00:52] We'd love it if you would subscribe to our dedicated feed as well. Please go to robhasawwebsite.com

[00:00:57] slash crime feed. Last week we watched the interrogation tapes on Hulu with Jason Reed

[00:01:06] with varying success. Sarah, what did we watch this week? Oh boy, speaking of varying success,

[00:01:13] this week we watched Cooking Up Murder colon uncovering the story of Cesar Roman. That's

[00:01:19] on Netflix. It's a three-part docu-series directed by Juan Luis Galeacho and Espanol.

[00:01:26] You can watch it in subs or dubs. But before we get salty about that, see what I did there,

[00:01:33] let us welcome our guest. He is my cohost on Mark and Sarah Talk About Songs and a

[00:01:38] five-timer on this lovely podcast. You give him a hand, we'll give him a Crime Seen mug.

[00:01:43] It's Mark Blankenship. Mark! Hello! Although I do want to note that Sarah Carradine immediately

[00:01:52] told me there was no mug for my fifth appearance and now I want Sarah Bunting's word to become

[00:01:57] law on the question of the mug. Sarah Bunting's word is law and thus it shall be so and it shall

[00:02:03] be so thus. Yes. Amen. You may be seated. Mark, you broke our magnifying glass rating

[00:02:13] systems the first time you appeared on this lovely podcast by awarding the first ever

[00:02:19] zero magnifying glasses in Crime Seen history. That was to Jared from Subway.

[00:02:26] Yes. Yes. I'm a bringer of chaos. You also covered the dual thief with us, two magnifying

[00:02:35] glasses. Yes. And Mr. Organ, which I remember you intensely disliking but when I looked up

[00:02:41] the ratings you gave it three. So we seem to be building up towards something I'm hoping that

[00:02:47] you loved cooking with murder. How many microphones did I give the one about Hillsong?

[00:02:54] Four. You're spoiling the story. Yes Hillsong we liked a lot. We all gave it four, yes.

[00:03:04] Yes. Well cooking up murder, cooking with murder. Oh sorry my mistake. Cooking up with.

[00:03:13] Whatever. Here's the thing. To give you an indication of the number of magnifying

[00:03:18] glasses I will be providing when Sarah said it was a three part series I thought

[00:03:22] it wasn't for me. Spoiler. Well okay let's get into the crime so that we can get out of this

[00:03:34] section of the podcast. Spoiler in August of 2018 firefighters responding to an alarm call in

[00:03:41] Madrid, Spain found a dismembered torso which had seemingly also been relieved of its traceable

[00:03:48] breast implants in a suitcase. The killer hadn't left much for authorities to work with

[00:03:54] but a necklace and a knife eventually let authorities ID the remains as those of 80 Paz,

[00:04:00] a Honduran national and the on again off again special lady friend of Spanish celebrity chef

[00:04:06] Cesar Roman the king of cachopo. Cachopo is a regional dish that's kind of like if chicken

[00:04:13] cordon bleu and veal parm had a kid. Roman's writing of it to fame and fortune was just the

[00:04:18] latest in a string of capital B big ideas that Roman's charisma sold to investors and partners

[00:04:25] and that he couldn't sustain or didn't want to. Already under fire for not paying vendors

[00:04:32] and employees and looking to move on to his next quote project read scam. Roman split town

[00:04:38] after the fire grew a beard shaved his head and worked in a restaurant kitchen in a smaller

[00:04:43] city until the law figured out he'd murdered Paz. Once apprehended Roman victim blamed

[00:04:50] his way through a trial and several appeals of the guilty verdict but as of April of this year

[00:04:56] has finally admitted to the gruesome murder probably for reasons involving leveraging a

[00:05:02] parole something he does remain incarcerated as of this recording.

[00:05:10] So it's a little hard to believe that a crime this lurid could result in a docu-series this

[00:05:17] for me uncompelling but for at least two of today's panelists that is what happened.

[00:05:25] I have my theories on why that's true but Mark can you tell us

[00:05:32] first how much of cooking up murder you managed to get through and why you stopped

[00:05:37] spoiler I guess first part and why it didn't work for you. Sure I ended up only watching

[00:05:44] one of the three episodes and I will say I emailed both Sarah's to say hey is it all right

[00:05:51] if I just stop I was willing to grit my teeth and get through it but I was told it was fine

[00:05:58] yes there's much more to talk about today so thankfully there will be other topics.

[00:06:05] For me this series fell apart immediately for two reasons one I'm not interested in watching an

[00:06:16] obvious con man try to con me and the people interviewing him I don't care about his charisma

[00:06:25] I don't find him charismatic and I just am not that interested in how he frames the story for

[00:06:33] himself. I don't care and I also felt that the way that the victim was treated it really

[00:06:43] was that old school in the worst way thing where the victim becomes a lurid plot point

[00:06:50] so that self-serving people can get on and have outsized reactions to her death in order to make

[00:06:57] themselves look good by that I mean not only our killer but I also mean the victim's mother

[00:07:02] and the apparent credulity with which the show was letting these people speak about themselves

[00:07:09] in the best possible light at length was tiring to me immediately and I guess 2.1 I just

[00:07:20] I so what you invented some chicken like the show did not do a good enough job of making me believe

[00:07:27] that this man was worth paying this much attention to I felt like it had picked the wrong focal

[00:07:33] point as a viewer with no connection to the Barnum P.T. Barnums of Spain.

[00:07:43] The teeny Barnums of Spain yeah Sarah Carradine same questions for you how far did you get and

[00:07:49] why did you bail I got all the way to the end and I bailed because I had finished watching

[00:07:56] the documentary I was enraptured by how boring it was almost this is like such a great story

[00:08:06] I mean such a great story unfortunately Haiti died we do lose her and when we do get her

[00:08:13] Mark I think you're absolutely right she's not treated with anything other than she is a

[00:08:20] point to move it all forward narrative engine yeah no thank you narrative engine I thought

[00:08:27] there were so many now Sarah we don't like to rewrite documentaries in other words we do like

[00:08:34] to rewrite documentaries but we understand that we shouldn't we should yeah we understand we

[00:08:40] shouldn't I'm thinking about the Pez Outlaw in and out in one hour and 25 minutes such a great

[00:08:46] film that one did interview the the main character I would say get rid of the interviews

[00:08:51] here with Cesar tell the story the the police and officials and his many many attorneys were

[00:09:02] interesting enough to carry the story I thought there was some stylistic things that

[00:09:08] could have been lent into but because it was three parts and because so much of it was Cesar

[00:09:16] talking to us and I didn't want to hear from him yeah it doesn't work it doesn't work and also

[00:09:25] if you're a police person please don't say we took the bottle and the correct fluids were

[00:09:32] applied so that a fingerprint could be lifted from the bottle and then matched through the

[00:09:38] matching system with Cesar just just say that you found his fingerprint I love process I love

[00:09:45] process no not that much that's not process though that's stalling stalling that's what we call that why is it so long what's your theory

[00:09:57] Filaire

[00:10:01] here's I agree with everything that you both said and in addition to that I have a kind of

[00:10:08] structural theory about why this didn't work um it's you know as usual the container was

[00:10:15] three episodes so that's the documentary that they made even though it should have been a

[00:10:21] whatever 85 minute feature but leaving that entirely aside I think there are certain cases

[00:10:27] that get sold on the strength of extremely lurid grisly details like you go in the room and you

[00:10:34] start with a torso in a suitcase you're getting money to make that documentary

[00:10:40] but an like an array of lurid details is not a story like you have to set up from a different

[00:10:48] angle besides um Napoleonic flimflam assholes gonna Napoleonic flimflam asshole like that's not a

[00:10:57] story that's a Wikipedia entry and you don't need cameras for that you don't need three

[00:11:02] hours of my time for that and I think that sometimes people confuse like flamboyantly horrible

[00:11:10] uh facts about the crime with the crime being able to tell us something else about human

[00:11:16] nature when you list all those details which is not which is not adequate it doesn't work for me

[00:11:24] and you see this across true crime that I'm like why isn't this moving me why don't I care

[00:11:30] that like there's no head like they never found the head that's not a story that's the end of

[00:11:37] the story Roman had a pretty wild excuse me Roman Caesar Roman had a pretty wild life even

[00:11:45] before committing first degree torso in a suitcase he was a self-styled spy for a far right party in

[00:11:53] Spain he started a magazine he became the king of Cachopo and at every professional stop

[00:12:00] he sold employees and investors on a vision and then declined to pay anyone except himself

[00:12:06] vanished and popped up somewhere else in Spain with another big idea is there a version of

[00:12:12] this low pockets biography that makes for a more interesting series and if so what does that

[00:12:20] look like Sarah Carradine your thoughts oh let's rewrite this every time I tried to think

[00:12:27] it's not leaving us a choice it's not the the good stuff the kind of frenetic music

[00:12:36] I didn't mind the little figurines I really liked the five actors like it was a jolly day for all

[00:12:44] short actors in Spain that day when they cast the different actors for the different parts of

[00:12:51] his life and then they didn't use them then then they didn't use them but every time I

[00:12:56] thought oh that could be fun or you could really push that like never see Roman Caesar

[00:13:01] himself but have these five actors saying yes I am Roman Caesar and I was in the you know that

[00:13:09] started well I am the Basques and I am a you know a Colonel in the Basque Liberation Front

[00:13:18] you're not uh that could have been good I liked I liked the visual style but the problem is

[00:13:27] or any of that kind of lightness or flippeness shrivels when you think about

[00:13:33] there's a young girl a 19 year old girl who was killed because she tried to leave her violent

[00:13:41] controlling domestic partner and was cut up and whether she was cut up or not it's awful

[00:13:48] the fact that she was cut up is is worse so it's very hard to find what sort of tone

[00:13:56] you would strike with it because it's not the Tinder Swindler it is no but then there's the

[00:14:02] body so yeah I think you could well why don't you write a book question mark I don't know

[00:14:12] that it's I don't know that it's a documentary Mark I guess this is making me think about

[00:14:18] as I was watching the one episode I watched I kept wondering what is this documentary trying

[00:14:24] to achieve why is it shaped like this why is the information coming in this order and admittedly

[00:14:31] I cannot fairly answer that question having not seen the entire project but the first episode it

[00:14:38] seemed to me like Sarah Bunting suggested that the primary thing it wanted to achieve was to

[00:14:43] titillate me with lurid details and just keep me feeling shocked and disgusted and that isn't

[00:14:54] interesting to me and it didn't even seem to do a good job if that okay so if that were its

[00:15:00] intended goal to shock and disgust me which I perceived the first episode that's what the

[00:15:05] intended goal was it didn't even do a good job of that because then it sidestepped all

[00:15:11] of that into just letting people again like just gas on and why are we here what is your

[00:15:19] goal I cannot I cannot perceive your goal and it's just very frustrating when we are this deep

[00:15:27] into the timeline of high quality true crime programming for something like this to squeeze

[00:15:34] through well I'm wondering if there's also not like a Spanish or like southern European

[00:15:44] cultural context that this series just sort of assumed that we had and failed to provide

[00:15:51] like it's not my impression that Spain is a huge country with a gazillion people

[00:15:57] where you can just consider can continue having these super high profile cons where you defraud

[00:16:04] people and fucking steal their money and then you just pop up and he doesn't even go like

[00:16:08] across Spain most of the time or like to France right goes to like another suburb in the same

[00:16:16] city or the same prefecture whatever and it's just like well I lost 20 pounds a gruegoti

[00:16:23] let's start over and it works Spain what are you doing did either of you feel that there

[00:16:31] was information that we because it was a Spanish production we just didn't get like

[00:16:38] we weren't told because they assumed we understood how Spanish law enforcement works how

[00:16:44] Spanish media coverage works was it just me Mark what about you did you feel the same way

[00:16:50] I definitely felt that when they glossed over the things that made him quote unquote famous

[00:16:57] right because your description of what that dish is was clearer to me than the show's

[00:17:02] description of what that dish is and I mean also could the show maybe like maybe it's just one

[00:17:08] of those dishes that you're like it just is gonna look so bad like pork roll egg and cheese

[00:17:14] the song the five people also looks pretty gross but it's green but like cacho pova like

[00:17:20] okay I'm into it uh Sarah Carradine did you feel that there something got literally lost in

[00:17:26] translation maybe uh no not not for me because I thought that the interesting people were the

[00:17:36] law enforcement um and I like seeing if I may non-American cops talking about the job

[00:17:45] like they they held they held my interest through the three uh some of the things uh

[00:17:51] Mark that you were not so happy with and felt were glossed over they did that so that later

[00:17:58] they could rewind back to it and say haha you thought that in episode one but now let us

[00:18:05] expand on it more for example Sarah when we find out after him being the king of cachoppo

[00:18:10] that he awarded himself the award but we don't find that out till episode three so it's like

[00:18:17] I see I see what you're doing you know giving us the surface story and then

[00:18:23] rewinding and rewinding it just wasn't it wasn't clever enough and I think

[00:18:29] what you think is missing is the stuff that's missing from a good documentary

[00:18:33] because this was not that yeah that's possible I mean I mean I just feel like

[00:18:40] I don't have an issue being manipulated or like I call this the Michael Clayton principle like

[00:18:49] for it to be extremely well built and like manipulative in the way that it's structured

[00:18:56] is not a bad thing like I respect I respect the hustle basically if it's done well like

[00:19:06] as you said Sarah Carradine like I you know I see what you're doing but I shouldn't be thinking

[00:19:13] almost exclusively about how I see what they're doing and it's still not interesting

[00:19:17] yeah so that's where I come out on that um I got 12 minutes into the second episode and was

[00:19:27] like I don't actually have to be here I have Google and that's like that's the death stroke

[00:19:34] for yes a true crime property that if it's like if I'm going to a second screen

[00:19:40] that's it what can you do do we have anything else that we'd like listeners to know about

[00:19:46] this series before we give it maybe no magnifying glass what we need listeners to know is just

[00:19:55] don't watch it the problem now I will also confess to this one I picked this one as well

[00:20:00] my picket is so off I don't know what's going on it it had a sort of brio about it if I may

[00:20:07] start speaking Italian it had a kind of not flash exactly but the the

[00:20:15] the idea of it led me to believe that we were in for something at least interesting

[00:20:20] if not you know something to chew on shall we say but there was no there was no there

[00:20:28] it uh it fell like a souffle it's taken out the oven too quickly

[00:20:35] all right I mean maybe we should switch the rating system to plates but if you know just

[00:20:40] because they were tacky enough to call it cooking up murder doesn't mean that we have to sink

[00:20:45] to their level but this is the other thing because the it in the original Spanish it's

[00:20:50] called the king of cochopo so okay you think we don't know what cochopo is but

[00:20:56] we don't know what cooking up murder is either

[00:21:02] it's a really good point yeah all right let's let's do this so that we can do something else

[00:21:09] yes our flagship how many magnifying glasses if any are you going to rate cooking up murder

[00:21:15] out of a possible five now I obviously didn't like it but I didn't dislike it to a degree

[00:21:20] that I feel have to break the system so I will just give it a single magnifying glass

[00:21:28] okay Sarah Carradine how many magnifying glasses will you be giving this docu series

[00:21:34] I'm going to give it one also and almost all of that one magnifying glass is for a tiny

[00:21:43] section that neither of you saw because it was buried in the third episode after he's been

[00:21:48] through four or five attorneys he keeps firing them or they keep leaving we're never quite sure

[00:21:54] and his final attorney he keeps giving her notes in court and she doesn't want to take them and

[00:22:00] he's very annoyed and so he tries to push the notes on her and she tries to push the notes

[00:22:05] away and eventually the judge has to say stop it it you know there's something there but

[00:22:15] it's so buried under shit and as you can as you can hear dear listeners we we can't even really

[00:22:22] fix it with any luster or or interest so one for me how about you Sarah

[00:22:29] well you know I try to grade these things or rate these things on a curve of like

[00:22:36] you know there's what I who watch this stuff for a living think of it and then there's

[00:22:42] how well I think it does for a like civilian audience and then I try to average the two

[00:22:51] I think that the audience to whom this is pitched is savvy enough to sort of see that this is not

[00:22:59] well done and probably to apprehend as I did that this got sold on the basis of a torso

[00:23:10] in a suitcase the owner of this torso kind of disappears behind a bunch of

[00:23:17] overproduced reenactments so I'm gonna say like for other people I would have given it a two

[00:23:24] I didn't even get all the way through it so it was a one so I'm gonna come in at one and a

[00:23:27] half magnifying glasses but it's just it's too long and not worth it I think that's a good

[00:23:33] point because Jason last week with interrogation tapes had the different take had the civilian

[00:23:41] almost as you say take and was able to express to us how how good it was it was a three for him

[00:23:48] it was less for you and I we were more critical I think even a civilian even Jason

[00:23:57] would have trouble marking this any higher I don't think it's stuff that that the general

[00:24:05] watcher is going to be able to forgive uh whereas in the interrogation tapes there

[00:24:10] were some stylistic things and there was some informational things that he was able to leave

[00:24:14] aside and be gripped by the stories and various things like that that is not the case here

[00:24:19] uh yeah there's an expression that my dad uses um like roi basically but and it's a little bit

[00:24:27] unfortunate here but is the juice worth the squeeze and I just don't think it is in this

[00:24:33] in this case okay let's change the subject to one that I think we all will enjoy much more

[00:24:44] this is a segment that we are calling what I learned from binging 20 seasons of law and

[00:24:49] order by mr. mark blank and chip a little little background before we talk more about that we had

[00:24:55] initially thought today that we would be talking about dick wolf's unscripted cop show homicide

[00:25:00] new york but at least one of us it was me I was the one just didn't have much to say about

[00:25:06] it after the initial couple of episodes we decided to focus on where dick wolf's true

[00:25:10] talents lie polishing the turd that is reality in the form of police procedurals

[00:25:16] hmm my esteemed work husband mark has recently completed a journey through all 20 of the original

[00:25:23] law and order mothership seasons partly to self-soothe during a period of geographic

[00:25:28] upheaval partly because it's just what we do mark please speak on this what yes learned

[00:25:35] about the original series that you may not have uh grok'd I guess on previous viewings

[00:25:42] well about your journey to start I many years ago for a Christmas present from my parents got

[00:25:48] the 20 season box set and uh had it there in my apartment when lockdowns happened in 2020

[00:25:58] and that is where this journey began because sure I just wanted to watch something comforting

[00:26:04] and obviously it much has been written about the comforting rhythm of an episode of law and

[00:26:09] order you just know that things are going to happen in a certain way and they always do

[00:26:14] and as you mentioned then I uh after lockdown ended and I got back to life I sort of walked

[00:26:20] away from that project but I'd gotten pretty far but then I was moving and I just didn't

[00:26:27] have the mental energy for anything new narratively because there was so much upheaval

[00:26:32] my life as you said so I went back to old faithful and here are some things that I learned

[00:26:41] one the old saw about law and order was that you don't need to know anything about the

[00:26:48] personal lives of the characters you can just watch standalone cases which is true the

[00:26:53] standalone cases are interesting but when you watch 20 seasons in four years I love the

[00:27:00] characters and obviously had known that I loved them before I've been watching the show consistently

[00:27:04] for much of my life but I really care about the characters and I have a new appreciation

[00:27:11] for the sensitivity that the writers had to making these characters consistent over many

[00:27:18] many years and there were things that I had forgotten or missed that were callbacks to

[00:27:24] things that happened six seven eight nine ten seasons earlier um and it was really exciting

[00:27:30] to watch and even the way that Jack McCoy evolves from being an old hippie to being

[00:27:39] an absolute tool of the political machine makes sense you watch it happen and the show has a

[00:27:48] cynical take on Jack McCoy that I didn't notice before I just remember originally feeling

[00:27:54] irritated that suddenly Jack was a different character because he was fighting for all of

[00:27:59] these things that seemed to be opposed to his original hippie beliefs but they actually did

[00:28:05] layer it in pretty successfully that we watch him lose his idealism and that was just really

[00:28:13] cool and so as the show started to decline in its final four or five seasons on the mystery level

[00:28:22] which it absolutely did oh I was still able to enjoy watching these people bounce off of one

[00:28:30] another um the other thing that I will say is that when the show is at its peak which is

[00:28:38] really up through the end of the 10th season I would say well the 11th season the final

[00:28:45] Angie Harbin season those first 11 seasons were all nominated for well almost all nominated for

[00:28:52] the Emmy for outstanding drama series and they merited that recognition because when that show

[00:29:00] is cooking the mysteries are good and the character development is good and I say this

[00:29:09] wistfully at its peak that show had an ability to engage with complicated ethical and moral

[00:29:17] questions in a way that did not feel pro forma in a way that did not feel cheaply both sidesy

[00:29:23] but was instead allowing people who had truly opposing ideological beliefs to approach one

[00:29:30] another in good faith in the DA's office or the police station to argue about the fabric of the

[00:29:38] society that they were trying to defend and I found myself getting really wrapped up in some

[00:29:43] of the arguments that the show was making and then to see that fall off later was you know

[00:29:48] okay nothing can sustain at that level forever but just to be reminded

[00:29:53] of the complexity of the thought in the writing of peak era mothership law and order was also a

[00:29:59] delight Sarah Carradine uh what is your relationship with law and order mothership

[00:30:06] have you revisited the show um since I mean we're just going to pretend that the current

[00:30:12] iteration with um yet another British actor on it um does not exist because I can't treat with

[00:30:21] that we're just talking about the original 20 but how have you they were solving racism

[00:30:27] Sarah they were solving racism oh 21 22 23 solving they started that project in what 1989

[00:30:35] so it's good that they're finally solving it now um how does the show land different for

[00:30:40] you than it might have during the original run yeah well I mothership is my absolute favorite

[00:30:48] I know a lot of people like SVU uh I find this for you far too involved in the characters

[00:30:54] personal lives uh it I am not the first person to say uh when they start to watch a video of

[00:31:02] child uh abuse I turn it off I can't watch it it is literally your job to do that uh

[00:31:10] and the longing for babies and then that dreadful anyway I won't go on I will watch an SVU but

[00:31:16] I'll also turn it off whereas for me uh law and order law and order full stop is a poppy field

[00:31:25] uh program for me so if I'm in a hotel or if I happen to turn on terrestrial tv

[00:31:31] and an episode comes on I cannot turn it off I do watch it to the end which I don't with um

[00:31:39] SVU so I was gonna say I made myself I mean I didn't make myself and neither did anyone else

[00:31:48] I did watch the the three latest seasons and they made me sad yeah they made me want to go

[00:31:55] back and watch uh the originals but unfortunately here season six and season seven are available

[00:32:02] so huh yeah I don't know why those two but those two are available uh I suppose I could

[00:32:09] fly to America and find find them elsewhere but I it's not Mark I think you're absolutely

[00:32:16] right it's not just the comforting rhythm of an episode someone's too busy unloading boxes or

[00:32:22] folding scarves to stop and talk there's much more to it than that and I think that

[00:32:29] complexity is you know apparent and occasionally we get it in SVU and criminal intent uh and

[00:32:40] I like the amberguine and for a straight down the line kind of copaganda show it is

[00:32:47] surprisingly ambiguous at times and when I do catch an old like a very old episode I'm really

[00:32:56] struck by it doesn't feel dated I mean the language is perhaps dated the clothing perhaps

[00:33:04] and the the the prevailing winds of society are dated but not the not the writing not the

[00:33:12] acting and not the subjects that each episode is trading off so I I love it and I always will

[00:33:19] and I won't say sorry yeah same I just want to also add that one of the reasons I've never

[00:33:28] liked SVU and I may be standing alone here is I've always thought that the acting on SVU was

[00:33:33] terrible and the to me the acting on Mothership is really good the guest stars are good the

[00:33:41] leads are good I just enjoy good acting on this show and it's such a pleasure to watch

[00:33:49] actors who of course will then later on become Laura Linney but also actors who I got to see

[00:33:54] because I worked in the New York theater for so long watch these actors come on have like two

[00:33:59] scenes and be great yeah and it's still serving that purpose um on SVU to an extent which I am

[00:34:08] still watching albeit in a hate watching way um I think that a few years ago uh when we as

[00:34:17] a culture were obliged to treat with the idea that there was a lot of copaganda in the culture

[00:34:25] that we just were either not aware of or were just not engaging with it on that level and for

[00:34:31] a while I did feel like when I was flipping past it on BBC America that I should not stop

[00:34:39] but I think that you can watch it and enjoy it as a well-made entertainment product

[00:34:44] while also acknowledging this I mean this is copaganda it's a police procedural but

[00:34:50] I think being aware of that means that you're quote allowed to enjoy it and

[00:34:58] like it's it's television like it doesn't always have to be um like a statement you can just

[00:35:07] watch uh George Zunza who thought the show was going to be the Zunza show um

[00:35:15] getting advice with Mike Logan who also is now a big problem so uh yeah I have continued to

[00:35:21] enjoy it and take things from it and particularly to look at the ways that the writers and the

[00:35:30] storytelling deal with the ripped from the headlines cases which is why we're talking

[00:35:36] about a fictional show here because they really do base so many of the cases across the franchises

[00:35:43] on real cases and it's like the shows are trying to sort of perfect uh the criminal justice

[00:35:51] outcome in many cases on uh best evidence I have a whole like spreadsheet codex of reading

[00:35:57] that you can do on the real life cases and it's fascinating to see especially in like

[00:36:02] Paul Robinet era the way that they're dealing in the script with these huge huge New York City

[00:36:10] area cases that everybody just knew from being alive how the show was dealing with that

[00:36:17] so I thought we could talk about our favorite ripped from the headlines episodes no limit on

[00:36:22] the franchises I ended up with a lot of SVUs which I'll talk about in a second but I went

[00:36:29] with a kind of identity theft theme for my favorite episodes the ones I like to return to

[00:36:36] but Mark what is your what are your top ripped from the headlines

[00:36:41] cases the ones that poppy fields you every time and you can never just keep going with

[00:36:46] your day you gotta watch the whole thing my number one absolutely is an episode from season

[00:36:53] four called big bang it's based on the Unabomber and this is is this Lindsey Krause

[00:37:02] uh no that's the other Unabomber episode okay well there's three Bobby Durst episodes so you

[00:37:10] know go back to the well this is the Unabomber episode that happened before they had caught the

[00:37:18] Unabomber okay and it one of the reasons I love this episode and it was so striking

[00:37:23] to me when I watched it in this project is there's no one really famous in it it's not

[00:37:30] really about trying to shock the audience with the crazy crime there's never a moment when you

[00:37:38] learn that somebody was sleeping with their own child and that they murdered their twin

[00:37:43] and you know it's just oh yeah it's although those episodes have their pleasures this is

[00:37:48] just about a scientist who felt that his work was being um stolen by a co-worker uh played by

[00:37:57] harris eulin and his all his slimy glory oh and he tries to get back at this person who

[00:38:07] is stealing his work because he feels he is an underappreciated genius and it goes horribly

[00:38:13] awry he sends a mail bomb it goes to a place where this guy doesn't live anymore but his

[00:38:17] ex-wife lives and if she's opening the package with a letter opener and it blows up and the

[00:38:23] letter opener goes into her neck and she dies and it wasn't supposed to hurt anyone it was

[00:38:27] just supposed to scare them and and the scientist was that like chris christopherson

[00:38:31] looking guy yes okay his name is randy mel I had to look him up because he hasn't really done

[00:38:39] anything else um really like but i remembered him but he was exactly and he was married for

[00:38:46] a long time to the actress mary mcdonnell is another thing oh okay so why not but what i loved

[00:38:52] about that episode is that at the end there is this deep moral weariness um he feels such

[00:39:02] remorse this guy and you can see that he was right and also wrong and this guy's acting

[00:39:10] randy mel is so subdued as these things go but i feel that makes it so much more palpable

[00:39:17] and the show is about it isn't about a mad bomber it is about the links that we will go to

[00:39:24] when we feel that we are being denied the credit that we are due and it's so it makes

[00:39:30] a genius man seem so small and that's so thought-provoking and sad to me and i just

[00:39:36] really thought it was a great episode that's a fantastic choice i'd love that i'm like the

[00:39:43] lindsey kraus one you're like no no not one of the lindsey kraus ones this is the other

[00:39:49] and i do like that they go back to these cases because some cases really are like a

[00:39:54] bone in the throat of the of society and law and order does a pretty good job sometimes

[00:40:02] reflecting that sarah caradine tell us about some of your favorite rip from the headlines

[00:40:07] episodes well i i have some original recipe but but because i wasn't able to rewatch them

[00:40:15] i thought i would go to svu but despite my complaints about it there are some that are

[00:40:23] i think really interesting and i'm going to bring up season 10 episode 19 selfish from april 2009

[00:40:34] and this brings off the kaylee anthony case it veers into the vaccination debate

[00:40:39] and it ends in a bang uh hillary duff is in it playing the the bad mother question mark

[00:40:47] oh good she's so good she i remembered her being good but she is so good and what i had

[00:40:56] forgotten was how good galo grady is as her mother the way they match each other the way that in

[00:41:03] lesser hands uh these would have been unbearably bad performances they were just so great we

[00:41:10] also get noel fisher uh i like his little four episode run as the inappropriate forensic

[00:41:17] technician dale stuckey no official later goes on to be a mutant turtle i forgot he was in that

[00:41:23] one this is why it's nice to watch them again before i get on here to recommend them

[00:41:28] uh it's a nice change from the relentless competency on show elsewhere i like that there's

[00:41:36] an ambiguous nature we're not sure there's an argument within the squad uh about choice and

[00:41:44] vaccination and all of that a bit prescient and also mr mariska artigay is in it um playing

[00:41:54] a defense attorney and he and hillary will be in younger together six years later so it was

[00:41:59] like so much packed within that episode and i think that happens sometimes where we think

[00:42:06] of law and order in all its iterations as a monolith and then you zoom in on one

[00:42:15] really wonderful episode you know wow there's like so much there's so much here so that is

[00:42:21] selfish what about you sarah well i think my all time like if i have to pick one rip from

[00:42:30] the headlines across the franchise my all-timer is the la troika that is basically the oj case

[00:42:38] and i just think that it's so well done um the sort of frustration that you feel with

[00:42:45] the characters the frustrations that the characters feel the number of like the law

[00:42:51] and order homicides sopranos boardwalk empire osven like the entire core like they've just

[00:43:00] thrown all these character actors at the wall and they've all stuck and it's brilliant but

[00:43:07] i actually went with um the kind of case that i like to see them tackle because they're always

[00:43:14] like you know there's always that moment with tamera toony being like well guess what she's

[00:43:19] not 16 she's 29 and that is when they tackle cases like triva throneberry who hopscotch

[00:43:26] around various school districts pretending to be an unhoused teen but was actually like 30

[00:43:32] both mothership and svu did iterations of that story but one of my all-time most compelling

[00:43:38] to me cases is uh the chameleon frederick borden uh and svu took this case on twice

[00:43:48] once in season 10 episode 11 stranger and once in season 19 episode 2 complicated in both episodes

[00:43:58] um as is implied in bart latin's documentary the imposter that the brother did something

[00:44:05] but we're never gonna know uh svu just decides that the sibling did it in both cases

[00:44:12] and the parent knew all along that the child who had returned was not really

[00:44:17] the child but they were just like sad and missed their kid

[00:44:23] uh the season 19 version i cannot recommend because there is so much noah porter benson

[00:44:30] horseshit happening in this episode including about to lose her mind brooke shields as his

[00:44:36] bio nana showing up and being like i have the right to see my son and there's just a lot of

[00:44:42] cry-voicing mariska also mr mariska is in this episode but to no to no avail so i don't

[00:44:50] recommend that one but season 10 episode 11 stranger is the one where everyone is screaming

[00:44:56] the name heather over and over again and this like poor broadway bound actor with the fake

[00:45:03] shamrock tattoos like i don't know where i can i don't know where i was being held it was

[00:45:09] just a building i i you know just wanted a family and then the sister is like actually

[00:45:15] i killed the real heather and stuffed her in a water tower ama it is wild the acting is not

[00:45:22] good but there's so much of it that it's kind of enjoyable and then the squad is just

[00:45:29] these looks like what so stories like that where um the uh where the quote perpetrator it's like

[00:45:40] it's not right to do this it's not right to pretend that you're someone's missing child

[00:45:45] but to actually like find a crime to pin on them is often really challenging that it's like

[00:45:51] you defrauded the government like it's hard to assign a felony to it often when it's really an

[00:45:58] illness and i think that peak svu like in the 10th season that's where the show was

[00:46:06] at its most interesting if not its best executed really had a knack for

[00:46:14] like standing on the line between this is just kind of a little off and fucked up

[00:46:19] and this is criminal and wondering where like just wondering where the line is and where you

[00:46:25] cross it so that is my recommendation um the triva throw he won which is where luke from

[00:46:32] jone of arcadia tries to run over the teen fabulist and like the actress's jaws wired

[00:46:39] shot so she has to i mean it's fucking what it's no monkey in a basketball but it's pretty

[00:46:44] wild oh monkey in a basketball oh yeah i mean there's there's really no topping monkey in

[00:46:50] a basketball i briefly wanted to mention one from criminal intent criminal intent

[00:46:57] when it first started i thought was marvelous and then it plummeted and then i wasn't interested

[00:47:01] and then i didn't watch it but i want to mention season six episode six masquerade

[00:47:08] from october 2006 so it's inspired if that's the right word by the john bernay ramsey killing

[00:47:14] which had been 10 years before lisa minnelli's in it and lisa minnelli forgot this episode is

[00:47:24] so good first of all she's very lisa minnelli and you go oh there's lisa being lisa

[00:47:30] and then you realize how perfect she is for the role and how she is actually acting

[00:47:37] it's not just her i mean there's twists and there's turns and it's a bit salacious and we

[00:47:43] know the person who did it from the very moment he steps into the frame not because he is the

[00:47:49] most famous person on screen but because he's acting uh very sus but there's a moment where

[00:47:57] she lisa is waiting for vincent to naufrio to come she sort of rather fancies him he's going

[00:48:03] to arrive and she picks up a hand mirror to put her lipstick on and as she sees herself

[00:48:11] her shoulders drop slightly and she goes oh it's such a small moment and it was so

[00:48:18] brilliant i just yeah i recommend that one that season six episode six masquerade lisa minnelli

[00:48:24] just being fantastic oh the one episode of criminal intent that i have seen is another

[00:48:31] rip from the headlines episode it's season 10 episode 7 icarus and it is based on all of the

[00:48:38] people who were getting hurt doing spider-man turn off the dark on broadway oh yeah and

[00:48:46] cynthia nixon plays julie tamora who directed that production and it was amazing in i i i'm

[00:48:54] it was awesome in the sense that i was truly awed by what was happening and there's um an actor

[00:49:01] falls to his death instead of just getting his back broken like happened in real life

[00:49:06] and uh it turns out that the dramaturg did it and i don't know if you're those of you

[00:49:13] listening if you know what a dramaturg is but i went to school drink to train as a dramaturg

[00:49:18] and the show features people on the staff who work in the theater professionally and yet

[00:49:26] decides to ignore what dramaturgs actually do because it needs the dramaturg to be the one

[00:49:32] who killed this guy and i just remember feeling like this is the greatest thing i've ever seen

[00:49:37] so i can't recommend it in one way but in another way i think that everyone should watch

[00:49:43] it just to get the exact wrong impression of what dramaturgs do in the theater as far as i know

[00:49:49] dramaturgs typically do not kill well i've worked as a dramaturg i didn't kill anyone

[00:49:55] most if not the most valuable player as a guest star across franchises then the most visible

[00:50:01] player because she's in that she plays julie tamora she plays bernie gets and she does a

[00:50:11] uh dissociative identity disorder turn in a season premiere of svu that

[00:50:18] the writing is i don't know what the writing is trying to do but she like she has it under

[00:50:25] control even though sometimes like she's in pigtails and grabbing christopher meloni which

[00:50:30] who among us so she she won an emmy for that performance too so yeah i i must say that

[00:50:38] the especially mothership but to an extent some of the other franchises have a way of taking

[00:50:44] extraordinarily famous actors and even if you they're not like particularly well respected for

[00:50:52] their acting extraordinarily famous people and having to be like huh like robin williams

[00:50:59] really good in that svu julia roberts yeah that episode needs to go in the extra hot

[00:51:04] great canon and i'ma try it folks speaking of canons let's recommend some things that

[00:51:12] the viewers should watch besides law and order and you know not cooking up murder mark what

[00:51:17] have you been watching recently that you would like to recommend to our listeners

[00:51:22] i can recommend with a certain bit of my tongue in my cheek that you watch on netflix

[00:51:30] the truly fascinating true crime documentary ashley madison sex lies and scandal it is a

[00:51:39] three-parter about the hack of the website ashley madison which is a site where people in

[00:51:49] relationships go to have affairs with other people in relationships it is i could not stop

[00:51:58] watching it it is absolute gutter trash it is designed to be tawdry no one is comes out looking

[00:52:08] good including the filmmakers people i you know it's so funny i was just saying i didn't really

[00:52:13] like how in this other documentary they just let people talk and talk and talk and like serve

[00:52:17] themselves but here this this documentary works because it lets people talk and talk and talk

[00:52:23] but the documentary itself is just right enough to let us see that these people who are talking

[00:52:31] at length about why they had to go and ashley madison are hanging themselves with a rope

[00:52:35] that they are knit that they are weaving in front of us and it's just fascinating to watch

[00:52:42] especially this famous quote unquote christian youtube vlogging couple just reveal their

[00:52:51] interior interior moral rot in the name of defending their honor like it i think that

[00:52:59] what really dragged what dragged me in to this documentary was actually ultimately not

[00:53:06] the story of ashley madison it was the story of these people and especially this christian

[00:53:11] youtube vlogging couple just having so little awareness of how they come across or thinking

[00:53:17] that they're fooling us and i couldn't stop i'm glad that this documentary also has in it a guy

[00:53:25] who worked at ashley madison who is kind of like yeah i'm a guy who sits by the pool

[00:53:33] and uh i drink a lot of margaritas and people like to screw around there's just this guy who

[00:53:38] doesn't have any f's or s's to give if you will and he has just totally sunk into his

[00:53:45] retired guy in a triple xl hawaiian shirt phase and it turns out that he's and it turns out that

[00:53:52] he's gay which i just was like whoa okay i'm married to a man fantastic um so he's kind of

[00:54:00] the um oh fall staff he's the fall staff of this particular series and it just is so

[00:54:09] so just ludicrous what happens in the show but i loved it i i really did enjoy watching it

[00:54:17] yeah i couldn't i think that you watch this as well yes i loved it i just i can't recommend

[00:54:25] it highly enough it does have a tragic death that we hear often we understand that there

[00:54:33] are more so how this documentary manages that rhinos manages that not quite wink wink but

[00:54:43] all almost that highly colored slightly frenetic style while also being incredibly respectful

[00:54:53] yes uh one of the users who who uh uh completed suicide that's a balance that

[00:55:01] a lot of documentaries can't make and it's it surprised and pleased me and i thought there you

[00:55:06] go that's how that's how you do it uh it should be studied but it's very very watchable

[00:55:13] uh the vlogging couple that we see initially you think far too much of and then you think

[00:55:21] gee they're really digging the knife into that guy and then a little bit of side googling

[00:55:26] uh we find out that uh yes the all the knives in the world are not enough for this yes piece of

[00:55:33] absolute anyway uh i will both they're both just the worst i i i just love the phrase side

[00:55:41] googling by the way um you sent me something about something else that these people had done

[00:55:48] and i was like i my jaw hit the floor and i oh oh they're just horrible

[00:55:57] i will i will link that youtube in the show notes it's it's astonishing we've said before

[00:56:04] on this program that there are two types of shows that send you off side googling and one

[00:56:08] is like jared from some way the one that didn't give you enough information and was

[00:56:14] completely unsatisfying so we went to wikipedia and found what we needed in three minutes

[00:56:19] and the other is a really good documentary packed with stuff totally satisfying that leads you to

[00:56:27] let me find out more to add to my pleasure to add to my knowledge to add to my appreciation

[00:56:33] of the subject i mean i knew what ashley medicine was i knew there was a hack i didn't know

[00:56:39] much more i thought i'm not interested in this and then mark you said it's good and i thought

[00:56:44] okay all right uh and it was so good and one of the things is finding out about an event a

[00:56:52] crime a news story that you thought you knew and going into detail on it i thought was was

[00:56:58] just wonderful i love the swedes the swedish anti-hackers yes but i found this statistic

[00:57:07] 20 million men were signed up and active with ashley medicine 2400 women

[00:57:20] oh brilliant just brilliant nothing nothing needs to be said that statistic says it all

[00:57:30] it really does sarah what do you have to recommend to us today um to my surprise i am recommending

[00:57:41] the beauty queen killer colon nine days of terror uh this comes to us from it's on hulu

[00:57:48] uh a three-parter from abc news studios which uh you and i did not have so much luck with

[00:57:55] it's era but in this case they do a really good job this is a case that was absolutely

[00:58:02] huge everywhere 40 years ago um march april of 1984 christopher wilder born in australia they

[00:58:11] always make a point to say like he's not america's fault okay no relation

[00:58:16] yeah so you say yeah allegedly uh you know had this um just rampage and his whole scam was

[00:58:27] um like going to the mall with a bunch of cameras around his neck picking out a pretty

[00:58:34] like 16 year old telling her he could make her a model getting her out to his car and then

[00:58:40] the rest unfortunately usually was history until um i mean it was history in florida and through

[00:58:48] like south texas and he makes his way out to torrance california and takes tina marie risico

[00:58:56] and then he makes tina marie help him take don wilt and so both of these women

[00:59:05] participate in the documentary um and talk a lot about they haven't talked about it a lot before

[00:59:11] this is one of those cases that has fallen beneath the horizon for whatever reason

[00:59:16] and uh they talk about the experience um not just of um this horrible ordeal with christopher

[00:59:24] wilder but also after and how they were perceived by the media how they perceived each

[00:59:31] other um the way that media accounts of the case kind of put them at odds with each other

[00:59:41] and like that they're i think not in touch and don still really is not a fan

[00:59:49] of tina marie and uh it just is this amazing like it's foregrounding the victims but for

[00:59:57] like quote different reasons than you might usually see it's not just what happened

[01:00:05] during this terrible crime or this crime spree because you know these two women came back

[01:00:12] many did not it's how there's like another there's another like um

[01:00:19] gantlet of trauma for victims after they come home and it continues for decades so i thought

[01:00:29] that this uh perhaps not entirely um purposefully really got at some uh important things about

[01:00:39] how we talk about and the assumptions that we make about crime sprees crime victims and so on

[01:00:47] once again it's called the beauty queen killer i don't love that once again wilder is like

[01:00:53] before the colon they should have just called it nine days of terror in my opinion um but this

[01:00:59] case really like at the shop i had like five copies of this book now i have one and i really

[01:01:05] was like no one cares about this case anymore i'll never sell these and then

[01:01:09] um

[01:01:13] um

[01:01:19] i have to say sarah i had seen this in the rail of offerings on hulu and i

[01:01:26] immediately dismissed it because the title sounded bad to me i'm so glad you've said this

[01:01:30] i will watch this now yeah try it it's sort of there's an interesting um there's an

[01:01:36] interesting build and i think the things that it's trying to do it may not be aware

[01:01:40] that it's trying to do them until they part way through so that's sort of an interesting thing

[01:01:45] to watch as well at crime scene we're eager to hear your feedback and suggestions for

[01:01:51] future episodes you can follow crime scene on twitter at crime scene rhap that's s e en or

[01:01:58] email us at crime scene rhap at gmail.com we're on tiktok at crime.scene and all other social

[01:02:06] media at crime scene podcast and please remember to subscribe to our feed rob has a website

[01:02:12] dot com slash crime feed emphasis on the feed today everybody it makes a big difference

[01:02:20] oh god

[01:02:24] i'm not sure there's any coming back from that but just in case what do you have going on and

[01:02:30] where can people find you well people can find me all over the internet frankly because let's

[01:02:35] be honest i get around uh two places i would love them to visit one is a food magazine

[01:02:41] that i am editing in nashville but no we're not nobody's cooking up any murder

[01:02:46] i am the nashville bureau chief of a food magazine called the food section and i have been

[01:02:52] writing about southern food and culture and it's been really fun and i think you might enjoy it

[01:02:57] so you can find it at the food section dot com and i continue to write a sub stack called

[01:03:05] the lost songs project in which i resurface songs that reached the top 10 but now have

[01:03:13] fewer than 10 million streams and dig into why they were awesome then what we might have to

[01:03:18] learn about them now etc and you can find that at lost songs dot sub stack dot com i suspect

[01:03:27] if you like music there will be a song that you enjoy there because i cover everything from

[01:03:32] the 50s to today i second those emotions sarah caradine what about you what have you got

[01:03:39] going on and where can people find you people can find me at sarah caradine on all the things

[01:03:46] over on silent podcasts i'm covering season 17 of taskmaster uk and season two of alone

[01:03:53] australia and sam smith from the traders new zealand and i are covering the traders quebec

[01:04:00] despite the fact that neither of us speak french

[01:04:15] he put the he put the antifreeze in the wine uh what about you sarah what have you got going on

[01:04:22] oh may we well uh you can find a lot of books based on cases that you heard about here on crime

[01:04:31] scene at my all true crime book shop that is exhibit b books exhibit b books on all the

[01:04:37] socials and exhibit b books dot com and don't forget you crime scene listeners have your own

[01:04:44] discount code for 15 off that's xcs15 or just click on the link that is our show notes and

[01:04:51] it will apply it auto magically at checkout xcs15 at exhibit b books dot com and as of this

[01:05:00] recording i still do have one copy of the beauty queen killer left if you would like

[01:05:04] to read the book by mr bruce gibney so sarah caradine what are you and marie watching

[01:05:13] next week well next time on crime scene we're watching dancing for the devil with returning

[01:05:20] guest nicole horn you can watch it on netflix and send us your comments and questions

[01:05:27] and as i mentioned also next time your fearless co-leader marie forth returns to the co-host

[01:05:33] chair these were extremely large shoes to fill i'm sure i did not come close but it was an

[01:05:38] honor and a pleasure to try so thank you for having me for this past month thank you

[01:05:44] so much sarah for being my co-pilot and then i've written in my notes or whatever

[01:05:51] i don't know what i meant by that at the time but it has been so great to uh have you here

[01:05:58] thank you thank you thank you you are now a 13 timer i think i don't know what you get for that

[01:06:05] a loving cup there you go

[01:06:12] a cachopo yes you get uh yes but unfortunately we have to make it for you yeah and it can't

[01:06:20] get any meat so good luck everybody well and i will also tell you something from episode three

[01:06:25] is people said it's not very good and then they showed all the they showed all the all the

[01:06:30] user reviews which were one stars not very good

[01:06:36] thanks to mark blankenship for joining us will from america for the theme music

[01:06:40] and the whole rhp team behind the scenes until next time case closed