Crime Seen | Episode 104: Ctrl+Alt+Desire

[00:00:00] .

[00:00:30] Sarah Carradine This is Crime Scene, the True Crime Review

[00:00:57] podcast where we get to the heart of how true crime stories are told.

[00:01:01] I'm Sarah D. Bunting sitting in for Mari Forth.

[00:01:04] Sarah Carradine I'm Sarah Carradine, podcasting from Aeora

[00:01:07] Sydney.

[00:01:08] You can get this fine program along with all the other fantastic reality TV content

[00:01:13] by subscribing to robhasawwebsite.com slash rehapupsfeed.

[00:01:18] That's R-H-A-P-U-P-S.

[00:01:21] And we'd love it if you would subscribe to our feed as well.

[00:01:25] Please go to robhasawwebsite.com slash crime feed.

[00:01:28] Sarah D. Bunting Last week, we watched Under the Bridge on Hulu.

[00:01:33] That's continuing its eight episode run.

[00:01:36] But for this week, we watched Control Alt Desire.

[00:01:40] We'll get into it on Paramount Plus.

[00:01:42] That's a three part docu-series based on four years of recorded conversations

[00:01:48] between first time director, filmmaker Colin Archdeacon and inmate Grant Amato.

[00:01:53] These calls were conducted on the prison phone system as well as they're careful

[00:01:57] to tell us, illicit smartphones Amato obtained.

[00:02:03] Before we get into that, let's get into this.

[00:02:06] It's our guest, Eve Beatty.

[00:02:08] This is her third time on the show.

[00:02:11] She is my work wife and a journalist.

[00:02:13] Hello, Eve.

[00:02:15] Welcome back.

[00:02:16] Hi, guys.

[00:02:17] Thanks for having me.

[00:02:18] Hey, Eve.

[00:02:19] Welcome back.

[00:02:20] It's so good to see you again.

[00:02:22] Well, thanks for having me.

[00:02:23] I'm excited to be here.

[00:02:25] All right.

[00:02:26] Let's get into the central crime of this property.

[00:02:30] In January of 2019, 29 year old Grant Amato shot and killed his mother and father

[00:02:35] and his older brother, Cody, at their home in Seminole County, Florida.

[00:02:40] He attempted to stage it as a murder suicide, then fled.

[00:02:44] Amato was captured after a 24 hour manhunt, tried and found guilty so we can dispense with

[00:02:49] the allegedlys and was sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.

[00:02:56] Before all of this, Amato had developed an infatuation with Bulgarian cam girl,

[00:03:01] Sylvia Vensislovova.

[00:03:04] Amato used $200,000 of his father and brother's money to attend her webcam sessions,

[00:03:10] buy her gifts, etc.

[00:03:13] His family attempted to provide treatment for what they saw as an addiction by forcing

[00:03:17] him into a rehabilitation center.

[00:03:20] But after a week and some enabling from his mother, Grant returned home where he

[00:03:26] argued with his father over remaining in contact with Sylvie.

[00:03:29] This argument is said to be the deciding motive for the murders a month later.

[00:03:35] Very judicious is said to be, Sarah.

[00:03:38] Well, I mean, but you know, who is saying what about these crimes is really sort of

[00:03:46] the foundational, like the main point of interest in this series, which I did review

[00:03:53] at best evidence dot fyi.

[00:03:55] We will link to that in the show notes.

[00:03:59] I would like to ask you guys, because I feel like the entire power to compel of

[00:04:07] this series relies on two things.

[00:04:10] One, watching the whole thing and two, getting through the whole thing without

[00:04:15] giving into the urge to Google the results, the adjudication, any background that

[00:04:22] the that is not in the show in the series itself.

[00:04:28] Eve, did you manage to resist the urge to second screen when you were watching

[00:04:33] this? And do you agree that the power is like entirely cumulative for control?

[00:04:39] All desire. I did.

[00:04:42] Well, I was able to resist the urge to Google it because I watched it primarily

[00:04:45] on my phone while on the treadmill.

[00:04:46] So that is that's like a good way to sort of keep you from, you know, second

[00:04:51] screening anything just pro tip to the listeners there.

[00:04:55] But I I understand what you're saying.

[00:04:59] I think that power is one word to use, but I also do feel like the gimmick

[00:05:06] because you know what happened from there is not the mystery to me feels

[00:05:13] manufactured.

[00:05:15] You know what happened from the beginning?

[00:05:17] This is a family annihilator with mental health issues and everything else.

[00:05:22] In my opinion, Sarah, I think you liked a lot more than I did is, you

[00:05:26] know, it's just like, you know, the croutons and the cheese on what is

[00:05:30] essentially iceberg.

[00:05:31] Right. Well, I did.

[00:05:35] I mean, like is a is a weird word to use, but I did respect what it was

[00:05:41] trying to do while feeling that there were also a lot of holes in the

[00:05:49] like a lot of problems with the construction.

[00:05:52] Sarah Carradine, how did you feel about it once you had gotten to the

[00:05:56] end? Did you feel impressed with what it tried to do or manipulated or a

[00:06:02] little of both?

[00:06:03] Well, a little of both.

[00:06:05] And as I said to you before we started recording, I'm really interested

[00:06:08] to talk about it because I have I've mixed feelings.

[00:06:12] I'm in two, three, four, five minds about it because part of me wants

[00:06:16] to say, oh, it's really well done and I recommend it and everybody

[00:06:20] should watch it and it's so well made and it's fascinating.

[00:06:24] And another part of me goes, oh, why are we why are we listening to this

[00:06:30] terrible man?

[00:06:33] And then another part of me goes, well, maybe we should understand

[00:06:35] terrible men and terrible people.

[00:06:38] But then do we understand him more through this docu series?

[00:06:43] So I went in several directions at once.

[00:06:47] I I would have liked a much more different treatment of cam girls and

[00:06:56] that cam life and cam girl trainers, which I thought would have been an

[00:07:03] interesting place for the documentary to spend some time.

[00:07:09] But instead we got fairly stereotypical flashing semi nude women,

[00:07:16] you know, sucking their fingers.

[00:07:17] And it's like, well, OK, like we actually all know what that is.

[00:07:22] What do you have to tell me that that isn't?

[00:07:25] And there was only really a brief moment of one of the girls,

[00:07:29] not Sylvie, not not the woman that he allegedly not allegedly,

[00:07:33] as you say, it has been proven in a court of law that he spent

[00:07:36] over two hundred thousand dollars on.

[00:07:38] We don't really hear from her except briefly.

[00:07:42] But a couple of the other cam girls, I thought were really interesting,

[00:07:45] but it stayed surface.

[00:07:47] So I think I probably liked it more than you, Eve, from what you're saying.

[00:07:53] I was fascinated by it.

[00:07:59] I thought it did have power.

[00:08:01] I didn't Google as I went.

[00:08:03] I wanted to see.

[00:08:06] How it came about to the end.

[00:08:09] I never thought he didn't do it.

[00:08:11] And I wondered if if Archdy can wants us to have a question mark

[00:08:17] about whether he did it or not, I never for a moment thought

[00:08:21] that he didn't do it, not because of him, but because of the structure

[00:08:24] of the documentary itself.

[00:08:27] Yeah, I didn't think he didn't do it.

[00:08:30] I just I think that the the mystery or the question at the heart of it

[00:08:35] maybe because of the construction was

[00:08:40] whether he was going to admit it and in what fashion,

[00:08:44] slash for what purpose.

[00:08:47] But I also I agree with you, Sarah, that the it hinted at a better,

[00:08:55] more thoughtful documentary about camp life

[00:09:01] and specifically about this line that these

[00:09:07] women, not just women, but these Internet sex workers live on

[00:09:13] creating that false intimacy in these parasocial relationships

[00:09:17] in order to make a living.

[00:09:18] And if that crosses the line of, you know, reality

[00:09:24] as it did here, what that's like for them

[00:09:29] and how they see this, these parasocial relationships

[00:09:34] and the sort of dangerous, you know, other side of them.

[00:09:39] But at the same time, I can't sort of judge this series

[00:09:42] control all desire

[00:09:45] on the basis of something that I wish that it were

[00:09:48] or like another property that I almost rather would be watching

[00:09:51] because I think that would be more interesting and processy for me.

[00:09:55] But it did seem like a missed opportunity, and it also seemed a little.

[00:10:03] I don't know, like not that I need a conventional build,

[00:10:06] but I felt like there were big sort of information gaps

[00:10:11] in terms of other people's perspectives or just information about them,

[00:10:16] information about, for instance, the rest of the Amado family.

[00:10:21] Like there's a half brother that shows up like in the last episode.

[00:10:26] Eve, did you find that there were

[00:10:29] like that it was past elliptical and into.

[00:10:33] They cut too much.

[00:10:35] Well, I don't see the thing is, it's like,

[00:10:37] I don't know that they necessarily cut too much to me.

[00:10:40] It just feels I guess what this show feels like to me is this filmmaker

[00:10:46] you know, caught wind of this, started doing the recorded conversations.

[00:10:52] And then what he ended up with were a bunch of recorded conversations.

[00:10:56] And he was sitting there trying to figure out like, well,

[00:10:59] how can we build a show around this, especially as a first timer?

[00:11:02] And so, you know, he was able to work with the journalist.

[00:11:07] I assume she's Bulgarian to try to track down Sylvie.

[00:11:10] But other than that, it didn't seem like he got very much.

[00:11:13] And what he did get. OK, so we've got a journalist.

[00:11:16] We've got, you know, prosecutor, defense and we've got Mary, who

[00:11:22] we see sitting there speaking, you know, with her identity, her, his

[00:11:27] their identity obscured.

[00:11:29] And then in the last episode, it's like, oh, well, you know, we had this.

[00:11:33] You know, he sent me money.

[00:11:34] All of this was extremely unclear, extremely vague.

[00:11:38] I am still not sure the nature of their relationship, if it's ongoing.

[00:11:43] You know, we get all sort of, you know, a ball of that in the last episode.

[00:11:50] I think that by structuring it chronologically.

[00:11:55] I understand why they did it, because that's probably what kept people going.

[00:11:59] But I also think that that meant that you do have to watch all of it

[00:12:02] and it required patience.

[00:12:04] And then when these questions weren't answered,

[00:12:07] you're more frustrated than you might have been otherwise.

[00:12:10] I mean, I think absolutely we shouldn't criticise a documentary

[00:12:14] for not being what it didn't set out to be.

[00:12:18] But there's an when you include Mary, you have

[00:12:22] whether you like it or not, you have set out to include Mary

[00:12:25] in your documentary.

[00:12:28] So why is it so obscure

[00:12:32] what their role is or how they see their relationship with Amado?

[00:12:38] I mean, it comes, we hear from them right from the start,

[00:12:42] but we hear more about it once we see the pile of letters

[00:12:47] that Gran Tomato is getting from women,

[00:12:50] which he's very pleased about.

[00:12:52] He's not so pleased that they stop writing to him.

[00:12:55] And Mary talks about their relationship and it seems to have

[00:12:59] from what I gleaned, it seems to have come up since he was in jail.

[00:13:03] They certainly know that he's a convicted killer.

[00:13:06] They don't seem that bothered by it.

[00:13:09] And then it seems that they also were in a sex work situation,

[00:13:16] potentially a web based one.

[00:13:20] They mentioned money and that was also fascinating.

[00:13:24] Like, where does a prisoner get a thousand dollars to send to a cam girl?

[00:13:29] There was, as I say, let's not criticise it for what it wasn't,

[00:13:33] but it did have Mary in it.

[00:13:35] So why are we wasting Mary?

[00:13:38] Yeah, I mean, there's there's criticising it for not

[00:13:42] being something that it didn't set out to be, which I don't think is fair.

[00:13:47] But then there's criticising it on the basis of, well, you know,

[00:13:51] you used certain aspects of a more traditional

[00:13:56] like news magazine structure of a docu series.

[00:14:02] But if you're going to do that, then what's the expression?

[00:14:05] You can't send up what you don't have down.

[00:14:07] I forget who said it originally.

[00:14:09] I heard Warhol say it, but it's like you

[00:14:12] you have to know the structures and the beats of this style of storytelling

[00:14:18] better, I think, in order to invert or subvert them

[00:14:24] in a in a way that's going to be extremely effective.

[00:14:28] This was merely regular effective, I think.

[00:14:32] But I did feel especially with Mary, who I think at first is Chiron as a friend.

[00:14:39] But then by the end, it seems like Mary

[00:14:44] is a like parasocial paid friend, which is fine.

[00:14:49] And Mary is talking about the relationships sort of in the

[00:14:54] possibly in the past tense.

[00:14:56] But then as far as we can tell, Grant is getting tattoos

[00:15:02] involving Mary and calling them his edge queen, which,

[00:15:10] OK, you know, I don't I don't care to go there with grants

[00:15:14] with great references

[00:15:17] in the bedroom.

[00:15:19] But the the fact that that is left

[00:15:23] unclear seemed like a mistake or seemed like amateur construction

[00:15:31] that was designed to confuse,

[00:15:35] but without like purpose, if that makes any sense.

[00:15:38] So this was an issue for me with this documentary that

[00:15:44] it was taking the things that it needed from a more traditional

[00:15:49] setup, a more traditional build,

[00:15:51] but not enough of them.

[00:15:54] And it didn't seem to necessarily know what it was doing sometimes.

[00:16:00] Eve, would you agree that?

[00:16:02] Well, sometimes he was just like, let's work backward from the tapes

[00:16:06] and not worry too much about the about knowing what we're doing.

[00:16:09] I OK, like I I am not going to speculate about filmmaker intention,

[00:16:14] but I'm about to speculate on filmmaker intention.

[00:16:17] I have a if you ask me to sort of guess like what this guy was thinking

[00:16:23] or saying as he was making the movie, my guess is that he was a big admirer

[00:16:27] of the Jinx and I mean, oh, and I'm sorry, you know, and the

[00:16:33] and there is a shagginess to the Jinx.

[00:16:37] And I'm talking about the first series, not the not the most recent one.

[00:16:42] But there's a shagginess and a shaggyness

[00:16:46] and a question mark and a sort of cloud

[00:16:50] and a character building around the central figure

[00:16:55] who in the Jinx we at that point believe is likely a killer.

[00:16:59] And, you know, I mean, we don't know.

[00:17:02] But and I think that.

[00:17:05] I think that part of it is that he was admirer of it.

[00:17:07] And part of it was that when you're going to center your show around

[00:17:12] primarily just conversations with this killer at this point,

[00:17:15] you know, those comparisons are inevitable.

[00:17:17] But I also feel like that informed some of the pacing,

[00:17:21] like how abruptly we get the confession at the end to me very strongly mirrored

[00:17:26] the as we know, doctored final confession in the Jinx.

[00:17:32] Oh, what are they going to say? I did it all.

[00:17:35] But that also like that in the Jinx, we'd sort of see these friends

[00:17:39] and acquaintances sort of come in and out of it.

[00:17:41] And we weren't ever really clear on their relationship with Durst or what it meant.

[00:17:45] But it was just like they were providing local color.

[00:17:48] And I think that that works when you've got more of a story to tell,

[00:17:52] more of an overall question about your primary figure

[00:17:57] and more of those local color people coming in and out.

[00:18:01] We didn't have that here.

[00:18:02] And then I felt like they were trying to fit that sort of

[00:18:06] that Jinx ethos into the standard Netflix hulu streaming,

[00:18:11] you know, three parts, your in and you're out,

[00:18:15] you know, talking heads sort of thing.

[00:18:17] And I think that what we ended up with was neither fish nor fowl.

[00:18:22] Yeah, agree. Sarah, do you think that

[00:18:25] do you agree that the Jinx was a influence here?

[00:18:28] And would you say that it was a malign influence?

[00:18:31] Well, it's it's it's as if

[00:18:35] and very interesting that actually can it's it's it's his first

[00:18:39] his first direct hits is his directorial debut.

[00:18:43] He had access to this man for some reason,

[00:18:48] caught his eye, caught his ear.

[00:18:50] You know, we all get obsessions talking about obsessions.

[00:18:52] Very interestingly, he never reflected on his own.

[00:18:55] But I think definitely he watched the Jinx.

[00:18:58] He's at an age where he would have if he watched it at the time

[00:19:01] when it came out, it would have been a such an influence.

[00:19:04] And it was a very, you know, influential document,

[00:19:07] whatever one's age is. Sure.

[00:19:11] But he didn't somehow understand

[00:19:15] why it worked in in a way.

[00:19:19] And I was thinking about how much of Colin Archdeacon,

[00:19:24] the filmmaker we see and really questioning

[00:19:28] why we see so much of him.

[00:19:31] And then I thought, well, we see a lot of Jureki.

[00:19:34] And again, that's a that's a stylistic,

[00:19:38] you know, Xerox of the Jinx.

[00:19:41] But it seemed to me that a lot of the

[00:19:44] the video, the vision of Colin Archdeacon is

[00:19:49] almost certainly B-roll.

[00:19:51] And a lot of it is him with compressed lips

[00:19:54] slightly shaking his head disapprovingly.

[00:19:57] It's like I actually don't need you to do that.

[00:20:00] Was anyone getting, yeah, like speed vibes?

[00:20:03] Like when they loop the video from inside the bus?

[00:20:06] We're going to get that Wildcat.

[00:20:08] Yeah, just him like a slight disapproving

[00:20:14] head shake. And it was like, I feel like we've seen this footage before.

[00:20:17] Yes, I have a theory on that one.

[00:20:20] So I have a theory.

[00:20:21] I mean, I do think, Sarah, I do think you're right.

[00:20:23] I do think it was reused.

[00:20:25] And my theory on that is because in the edit,

[00:20:30] my guess is that he realized he was coming off as

[00:20:36] and this is not a judgment on him because we all have to do this

[00:20:39] as journalists, as people who are interviewing people.

[00:20:42] When you're talking to them, you're like, but you're a fucking murderer.

[00:20:45] Then you don't get anywhere with your project.

[00:20:47] But my guess is in the edit that Bell agrees,

[00:20:53] he realized that probably too many people

[00:20:56] he was coming off as approving or enabling or whatever.

[00:20:59] And they had this one bit of footage and they had to keep dropping it in

[00:21:03] at moments to sort of get his his his rep back.

[00:21:08] No, and this is something this is something that you see

[00:21:11] a lot of times in edit to like in the sort of the standard news magazine

[00:21:15] when you're seeing that sort of interview, too.

[00:21:18] This is something that was

[00:21:21] I wouldn't say famously done, but in, you know,

[00:21:25] the Prince Andrew interview,

[00:21:28] you know, you'll see these like cuts to

[00:21:32] the interviewer where she was directed

[00:21:35] to make a sterner face by the producers off screen.

[00:21:39] Because otherwise, I think viewers do get consciously or unconsciously

[00:21:43] this idea that the interviewer, this public figure is

[00:21:47] is agreeing with what's being said or thinks it's cool or whatever.

[00:21:51] And that's just kind of what you have to do

[00:21:53] to get these people moving and not to,

[00:21:58] you know, be Sarah Bunting and say, well, I wish this was something else.

[00:22:00] But this raises this whole interesting question about how

[00:22:05] being a cam model or being a server in a restaurant

[00:22:09] or being a journalist all require the same skills in terms of going along

[00:22:15] with building a relationship with someone that in many cases

[00:22:18] you have absolutely no desire of having a relationship with.

[00:22:21] But it's all part and parcel of the same thing.

[00:22:24] And that they didn't they I think that they did.

[00:22:29] They want to have their cake and eat it, too, with cam model stuff, right?

[00:22:33] They wanted to have the look.

[00:22:35] It's kind of tron, but sexy sort of thing.

[00:22:38] And then they also want to have the academia.

[00:22:40] Seriously unsexy, but yes, I know.

[00:22:42] Yeah, but you know what I mean, right?

[00:22:44] Like, you know, they had sort of that I robot face and all that.

[00:22:47] And but then we also had the academia and we had, you know, the sort of the

[00:22:52] the interviews with other people who do this kind of work.

[00:22:56] And I needed just a little bit more to say, like,

[00:23:01] these are the same skills that you use in many other jobs.

[00:23:06] And to other cam modeling, I think

[00:23:10] was a disservice to the project.

[00:23:13] So much of this time when I was watching the show,

[00:23:15] I thought this guy could just as easily have gotten obsessed with

[00:23:18] in another era with a waitress, with, you know, a woman who works at the gas

[00:23:23] station where he fills up every day with a teacher, with anybody else

[00:23:27] that is just out of his immediate social, you know, social bubble.

[00:23:32] But who for transactional reasons has to be pleasant to him

[00:23:35] and build a relationship with him.

[00:23:37] And that we didn't get any of that, I think, is proof that

[00:23:42] both the Jinx and these Netflix and Hulu shows that we watch

[00:23:47] that are just three episodes in and out are a lot harder to do

[00:23:50] than people give them credit with.

[00:23:52] And I think that the filmmaker figured that out.

[00:23:55] Some of the missing information, like,

[00:23:58] you know, when Grant is talking early in the

[00:24:01] early in the documentary about his relationship with his brother, Cody,

[00:24:07] and the soulmate terminology that he uses to describe a sibling relationship.

[00:24:12] And then there's no the filmmaker doesn't have access to

[00:24:17] any comment from Cody, like

[00:24:21] social media, Cody's journals, maybe if he had any like you, you never

[00:24:28] you so seldom get Grant's version of things

[00:24:32] checked just because Grant killed anyone who could disagree

[00:24:37] with his version of events, partly spoiler, I guess.

[00:24:41] But also because I think the the filmmaker has confused

[00:24:49] the I don't know how to put this, but I think the idea is to structure it

[00:24:54] so that you are first drawn in by and then ultimately repelled by

[00:24:59] this narcissist figure, Grant,

[00:25:02] who is the like exhibit A of a nice guy curdled.

[00:25:09] Right. But then he is in the construction.

[00:25:14] He is kind of mirroring all the information that Grant is leaving out

[00:25:19] of the image that he's projecting to Sylvie, to the filmmaker, so on and so forth.

[00:25:25] In Grant's case, that's just because narcissists can a narcissist.

[00:25:29] But in control all desires case.

[00:25:33] It's like it's because he's afraid we're going to look away

[00:25:37] if we have enough information to kind of make a decision about this.

[00:25:41] Honestly, fucking murderous turd,

[00:25:45] turd or I don't know,

[00:25:47] jittery, like before we get to the end.

[00:25:49] I and I am sympathetic to the instinct,

[00:25:53] but I think that this is where

[00:25:57] this is like kind of the fatal flaw.

[00:25:59] And again, I think that control all desire does a lot of interesting things.

[00:26:03] But I think that there's things that are like cynically left out

[00:26:08] information wise that are it's just kind of like a rookie move to be like,

[00:26:15] well, maybe they won't ask a follow up question if we don't provide information

[00:26:19] about the parents marriage.

[00:26:23] You know what Cody thought of Grant and.

[00:26:27] You know, the love was he the love of Cody's life and stuff like that.

[00:26:33] Sarah, was this part of your one of your minds about control

[00:26:37] all desire that you felt like maybe it was under cooked

[00:26:41] or needed a stronger hand in the construction?

[00:26:45] Both undercooked and needed a stronger hand.

[00:26:48] I mean, if it's interesting that you say a waitstaff

[00:26:53] or a journalist or a sex worker has to, you know, pretend sympathy or interest

[00:26:59] in Colin Archdeacon's case, he didn't have to pretend interest.

[00:27:04] He was interested. He chose this project.

[00:27:07] And I think that's fine.

[00:27:10] And he got the conversations. That's fine.

[00:27:13] It's almost like you're right, Sarah.

[00:27:15] He needed to then turn it over to someone else

[00:27:18] who would have a more acerbic look at what was done.

[00:27:24] So it's like he Archdeacon wants to, you know, have

[00:27:28] have the cake and eat the cake and slice the cake and cook the cake.

[00:27:34] Take yourself out of the film.

[00:27:36] That would be my harsh thing that I would say to him.

[00:27:39] Take yourself out of the film.

[00:27:42] It will still be the film that you made,

[00:27:44] but make it with another person who can, you know, curb your excesses.

[00:27:50] Or like Mr.

[00:27:52] Organ, show us how appalling it was that you were ever involved with Grant,

[00:27:59] how naive you were that you ever thought you could talk to him,

[00:28:03] how unprepared you were to make this documentary

[00:28:07] and how it became your obsession as well.

[00:28:11] Like, be more revelatory about yourself.

[00:28:14] Don't just put yourself on screen.

[00:28:19] Telling us something, why don't you?

[00:28:21] Why don't you really tell us something?

[00:28:23] Why don't you tell us how you really feel kind of thing?

[00:28:25] I mean, I had hope for Michael Williams,

[00:28:27] who's a reporter from the Orlando Sentinel, a bright young man, clearly.

[00:28:32] And we kept covered cutting back to him and he kept saying words,

[00:28:37] but nothing illuminating, nothing that challenged Colin,

[00:28:41] nothing that said, well, Colin, why are you making the film?

[00:28:45] So, yes, Sarah, I think you're right.

[00:28:47] There's stuff not only left out, but what's in there is undercooked.

[00:28:52] And yet it it feels like it follows the pattern

[00:28:57] of one of these really good documentaries

[00:28:59] without being one of these really good documentaries,

[00:29:02] including the early inclusion of a of a talking head

[00:29:06] Mary Grant's friend who later turns out to have a different role in the story.

[00:29:12] This is done very effectively elsewhere and not at all effectively here.

[00:29:18] Yeah. And again, in terms of like the

[00:29:22] the larger story of this family leading up to its annihilation,

[00:29:28] like you're seeing sort of B-roll pictures, there is a third brother in them.

[00:29:33] He is not explained until it's time to show trial footage.

[00:29:38] And it just seems like the

[00:29:41] it's like being purposefully opaque

[00:29:45] about everyone's relationships to each other

[00:29:48] in an attempt to parallel Grant's obfuscations as well.

[00:30:35] The trip to Luckyland, you know what they say,

[00:30:37] your chance to win starts with a spin.

[00:30:40] So go to Luckylandslots.com to play over 100 social casino style games for free

[00:30:44] for your chance to redeem some serious prizes.

[00:30:47] Get lucky today at Luckylandslots.com.

[00:30:51] Available to players in the U.S., excluding Washington and Michigan.

[00:30:53] No purchase necessary. VGW Group.

[00:30:55] Void were prohibited by law. 18 plus turns and conditions apply.

[00:30:57] It's time for today's Luckyland horoscope with Victoria Cash.

[00:31:02] Life's gotten mundane.

[00:31:03] So shake up the daily routine and be adventurous with a trip to Luckyland.

[00:31:07] You know what they say, your chance to win starts with a spin.

[00:31:10] So go to Luckylandslots.com to play over 100 social casino style games for free

[00:31:15] for your chance to redeem some serious prizes.

[00:31:18] Get lucky today at Luckylandslots.com.

[00:31:22] Available to players in the U.S., excluding Washington and Michigan.

[00:31:24] No purchase necessary. VGW Group. Void were prohibited by law.

[00:31:26] 18 plus turns and conditions apply.

[00:31:30] That sort of leads to the next and kind of my final question,

[00:31:34] which is I do feel that it's effective in paralleling in its own storytelling,

[00:31:40] the storytelling that sociopaths do

[00:31:44] and that nice guy incels like Grant do

[00:31:49] to manipulate people.

[00:31:51] The larger question is whether we need

[00:31:56] to be reacquainted with these manipulations

[00:32:01] as, you know, women who work on the Internet.

[00:32:06] Like, is this information that I needed to review?

[00:32:12] It was effective, but was it necessary?

[00:32:15] Eve, your thoughts?

[00:32:16] Well, my first thought, of course, is that I did not have

[00:32:20] Sarah D. Bunting saying nice guy incels on my bingo card for Tuesday.

[00:32:25] So I'm ticked about that.

[00:32:27] If I thought better, I would have put it there.

[00:32:30] I think that that's I was I was thinking about this when I was walking along,

[00:32:34] because I thought I don't want to say the same thing.

[00:32:37] When I was walking along this morning, I was like thinking,

[00:32:39] I don't want to say the same should I always say about,

[00:32:41] you know, we aren't centering the survivors, we aren't centering

[00:32:44] the crime and the impact it has on the community.

[00:32:47] And we really are in this show because they sort of putting that aside,

[00:32:53] because obviously that was never the filmmakers intent.

[00:32:56] If you're going to make the decision to focus on the monster,

[00:33:00] the monster better be fucking interesting.

[00:33:02] And this guy, I mean, nice guy incel is more interesting

[00:33:08] than he even actually is this person.

[00:33:10] I think one of the reasons that this guy is there in his room

[00:33:14] playing video games and why he couldn't make it on Twitch

[00:33:16] and everything else, because this is essentially a boring person.

[00:33:19] And this might be the most interesting thing he could have done.

[00:33:24] This might be the only interesting thing he's ever done.

[00:33:26] I mean, we know that he can't meet women in real life.

[00:33:32] We know that he didn't want to interact with his patients

[00:33:36] when he was a nurse, to the extent that he over drugged them.

[00:33:39] And we just sort of drive by that information.

[00:33:41] And we know that socially, he was such a disaster

[00:33:45] that he argued with this instructor and got bounced from nursing school.

[00:33:49] And, you know, in nursing school, people do disagree with instructors

[00:33:53] and they have, you know, meaningful discussions and things like that.

[00:33:59] So this is not it's not weird to have an argument

[00:34:03] with an instructor or a fellow student or something in nursing school.

[00:34:06] It's a stressful environment.

[00:34:07] So this was something that was more serious.

[00:34:09] So this guy's a social disaster who killed his whole family.

[00:34:12] And we have to spend three hours with him.

[00:34:15] And he's kind of a dud. Yeah.

[00:34:17] He's not interested. It's not Ted Bundy.

[00:34:19] Give me three hours to like look at and listen to Ted Bundy.

[00:34:22] I'm going to come away with it thinking like, OK, well, I've learned something

[00:34:25] with this guy. Yeah, he's garden variety.

[00:34:29] He's not interesting.

[00:34:30] The reason that these women stop writing to him is not because they don't realize

[00:34:34] that he's like this fascinating psychopath, it's because he's boring.

[00:34:38] Yeah. Well, and I'm about to get killed, aren't I?

[00:34:42] Well, in fact, he knows where you live, Eve.

[00:34:45] I mean, yeah.

[00:34:47] Well, stop writing back to him. That's my advice.

[00:34:50] I mean, he really does.

[00:34:52] He really does think.

[00:34:54] I think that he's selling this version of himself as a master manipulator

[00:35:00] and sort of like that he's always he thinks he's always selling

[00:35:04] his version of the story and how it's never his fault.

[00:35:08] And I think the filmmakers trying to.

[00:35:12] Reflect to us that he's diluted

[00:35:17] or that, you know, jail like jails and prisons are full of that guy.

[00:35:23] But it's like, I mean, are they really like, I don't know,

[00:35:27] sometimes they catch themselves as not really relevant here,

[00:35:29] but I'm just wondering how necessary it is to illustrate

[00:35:35] how a sociopath works well with this 2024 Sarah Carradine.

[00:35:40] Would this be the jail where they're chanting

[00:35:43] justice for a martyr, apparently his fellow prisoners?

[00:35:48] There was look, assumptions are just very incredible.

[00:35:53] If I agree with you that he's not interesting,

[00:35:55] but I think there's an interesting if you are going to talk about him,

[00:36:00] there is an interesting documentary to be made and it's in

[00:36:03] Colin Archdeacon's obsession

[00:36:05] and how he was changed by his relationship with this man.

[00:36:09] Mary, the cam girls, the wonderful model trainer, Anastasia.

[00:36:14] I could have listened to her talk and be made and be made up

[00:36:18] by her friend wearing a jaundice hat.

[00:36:20] Like we didn't give her a series.

[00:36:23] Exactly. Conversations with Anastasia. Exactly.

[00:36:27] Angela was promising, but either he didn't ask her

[00:36:30] the right questions or she didn't have answers that were that intriguing to me.

[00:36:36] I thought the another thread was how the media just immediately demonized

[00:36:42] Sylvie, you know, this this prurient thrill of this cam girl

[00:36:49] and you know how men give her money because she's pretty.

[00:36:54] Yeah, they do.

[00:36:56] And it this is nothing to do with her.

[00:36:59] She had many clients, many clients.

[00:37:02] And one of them was that that sounded I wasn't being judgmental

[00:37:05] when I said many clients, I meant, grant you are one of many.

[00:37:09] This woman is trying to make a living and and making a living very successfully.

[00:37:14] I give her money. She's perfect.

[00:37:16] I give her money.

[00:37:18] Oh my God, don't support vaping guys.

[00:37:21] Oh, the vaping.

[00:37:22] But somehow she made it.

[00:37:24] She made it so that I wanted to vape.

[00:37:26] But the Bulgarian

[00:37:29] journalist had some like very briefly, very interesting things to say,

[00:37:33] but that were not explored about Bulgaria.

[00:37:36] When we went to Bulgaria, it was so different from the glamorous

[00:37:41] single room that we've seen Sylvia inhabiting.

[00:37:45] I mean, of course, and we all know that.

[00:37:47] And yet there's another rich vein there.

[00:37:51] And then we hear Sylvie, I I was sorry to hear her

[00:37:55] because I felt like she doesn't even want that.

[00:37:58] I hope she knew she was being recorded.

[00:38:01] Yeah, I also wondered that.

[00:38:04] Wondered very strongly whether she did know whether she gave her.

[00:38:08] I mean, I'm assuming it's Hulu.

[00:38:10] I'm assuming that she did.

[00:38:11] But it felt very much not that.

[00:38:14] I would rather that the reporter, the Bulgarian reporter had said, yes,

[00:38:19] I spoke to Sylvie and she said she didn't want to talk

[00:38:22] and that she has had to have therapy about this and it has affected her very badly.

[00:38:26] She can tell us that we don't have to hear Sylvie's distress in her voice.

[00:38:33] And I think that Colin Archdeacon thinks two things are much more

[00:38:37] shocking than they actually are.

[00:38:38] One one is Grant saying that he killed them and that I loved him

[00:38:43] his iPhone, taking it to a whole lot of people we've seen, the public defender

[00:38:48] and he wants them to listen to it.

[00:38:51] And the journalist and the prosecutor, they listen to it and then they hear it.

[00:38:55] And then they just look at him like completely unsurprised.

[00:38:58] I think he wanted them and us to be like really shocked.

[00:39:02] And the other thing he wants us to be really shocked by is Grant's smile,

[00:39:07] which he shows us, he saves it to the last

[00:39:10] last minutes of the documentary that he smiles

[00:39:14] when he says that he's sorry about things and he smiles when he

[00:39:18] can't imagine why they can't find the gun, which she has sent them on a wild goose chase.

[00:39:22] It's like, yeah, I knew I knew he was that guy.

[00:39:26] I knew he was that guy.

[00:39:28] So, yeah, I mean, like seven minds by now.

[00:39:33] And I don't know if I've answered your question, but yes.

[00:39:36] Oh, no. Yeah, I mean,

[00:39:39] I don't know, like I really had a lot to say about it

[00:39:45] and it really gave me a lot to think about.

[00:39:49] But I don't know if that means that it's.

[00:39:52] Good or necessary, just I mean, you know,

[00:39:56] there's like the there's good and bad and then there's effective and ineffective.

[00:40:00] Like, I was really thinking about it

[00:40:04] a lot after I watched it.

[00:40:06] But at the same time, a lot of what I was thinking about was how

[00:40:11] it could have been better, more professional,

[00:40:16] more confident or done just a little differently.

[00:40:21] Like, you know, I don't think it needs like a remake

[00:40:25] so that it's this flip like Michael Moore, you know, grant a motto fact check.

[00:40:30] And like there's footage of him making an assertion and then a chiron

[00:40:33] pops up in Comic Sans that's like.

[00:40:36] You know, this is not true.

[00:40:38] This did not occur.

[00:40:39] But videos. Right.

[00:40:40] Yeah, with the sound effect.

[00:40:42] Boop boop boop boop like, yeah, we don't need to do that.

[00:40:45] Stitch incoming.

[00:40:48] God. But I just it's one of those.

[00:40:52] It's one of those docu series that's frustrating,

[00:40:55] that is frustrating for what it could have been,

[00:40:59] even though I'm trying not to judge it for what it isn't.

[00:41:04] It's hard not to think about what it could have been.

[00:41:07] Well, Sarah, all that will be handled in control,

[00:41:09] I'll delete to Colin Sylvia's letter.

[00:41:12] We're going to get to it.

[00:41:13] Oh, God. Oh, Sylvia's letter. Oh, dear.

[00:41:18] But that's another when we were talking about holes.

[00:41:20] That's another, I think, sort of huge hole that is never answered.

[00:41:26] Did Sylvia send that letter?

[00:41:27] I think, you know, just like with everything else,

[00:41:30] as soon as we heard about this letter, you're still my superhero.

[00:41:32] We like, you know, all three of us, like this is freaking fake.

[00:41:37] And, you know, he keeps getting asked, was this really Sylvia's letter?

[00:41:40] He doesn't answer the question.

[00:41:42] But I think someone needs to be like, Sylvia didn't send this letter.

[00:41:45] Obviously, Sylvia didn't send this letter.

[00:41:47] One talking head needs to say that and that the filmmaker didn't say

[00:41:52] to one of his talking heads,

[00:41:55] can you say if you think Sylvia sent a letter or not?

[00:41:59] And that he didn't get that in the documentary to sort of close that loop.

[00:42:03] That, to me, is another example of how these shows are a lot harder

[00:42:07] to make than I think people realize when they set out to make their first.

[00:42:11] Well, Eve, I think that you now made me think of something else

[00:42:14] that wasn't in the documentary that I'm now going to ask for.

[00:42:16] And that's the person to whom the questions are asked.

[00:42:19] What is it that a man like Grant or a personality or a mind like Grant,

[00:42:24] what is it that they get out of faking a letter and then

[00:42:29] passing it off as real and having that?

[00:42:33] If he is a narcissist and there's no reason for us

[00:42:36] amateur psychologists to think that he's not.

[00:42:39] But what is that mindset?

[00:42:41] What is the thrill?

[00:42:43] What does it tickle to to have this letter that he claims is real,

[00:42:49] saying wonderful, wonderful things about himself?

[00:42:53] And whether that's a psychiatrist, Eve, or whether it's our academic

[00:42:58] or whether indeed it's Anastasia, you know, why would he

[00:43:03] tell us more about these men?

[00:43:05] What are they like?

[00:43:06] And she could say they range all over the place.

[00:43:09] And some of them are like this.

[00:43:10] And it's hard for us to tell.

[00:43:12] Or whatever it is from from their side, we get a brief moment

[00:43:16] where one of the cam girls says, yes, sometimes there is a line

[00:43:21] and the men or our clients or no, they don't call them clients,

[00:43:25] customers, friends. What do they call them?

[00:43:27] Members, our members sometimes cross that line.

[00:43:31] And then she said, and sometimes we do too.

[00:43:35] Finish end of discussion.

[00:43:36] So what? Tell me about that.

[00:43:39] Like, tell me about that.

[00:43:41] So, yeah, is it good or is it bad is one question.

[00:43:45] And is it necessary is another.

[00:43:49] Well, I think we've stalled as long as we can

[00:43:54] on raiding this puppy.

[00:43:56] Look, if it turns out to be one of those like, you know,

[00:43:59] if you ask a statistician who has one foot in a campfire

[00:44:02] and the other in a block of ice, what's the temperature?

[00:44:05] And he's like, you know, moderate.

[00:44:08] It might end up being like that for me.

[00:44:10] I'm not sure, but I'm going to stall for one more second

[00:44:14] and ask Eve, Eve, how many magnifying glasses out of five

[00:44:18] are you giving control alt desire?

[00:44:23] Oh, one and a half.

[00:44:25] Wow. Wow.

[00:44:28] See, that's more shocking than anything I saw in the document.

[00:44:30] Why? Why? See, I don't know.

[00:44:32] Maybe you guys have like an inflated grade system or something,

[00:44:35] but I thought this was

[00:44:38] something you could watch on a plane.

[00:44:39] And that's sort of where I leave it.

[00:44:45] Am I allowed to give a zero?

[00:44:47] Yeah, absolutely.

[00:44:48] OK, yeah, one and a half.

[00:44:50] One and a half is right. OK.

[00:44:52] If the scale involves zero for like the worst of the worst.

[00:44:56] To watch it on a plane implies to me like a two and a half,

[00:44:59] like right in the middle, neither good nor bad.

[00:45:02] Oh, no, one and a half is like, you know, active avoid recommendation.

[00:45:06] But oh, see, I think zero is active avoid.

[00:45:10] I think one and a half is like bare minimum of like of standard.

[00:45:16] And that's to me plain because on a plane,

[00:45:19] it's easier for me to be interested in things.

[00:45:21] And I also know that I'm trying to fall asleep.

[00:45:24] It's the it's the something to do with the atmosphere.

[00:45:28] That's why you get drunk or quicker.

[00:45:30] That's why you cry.

[00:45:31] That's why people cry on planes when they're watching movies more readily.

[00:45:35] You do feel that things are better when you're watching stuff on a plane, too.

[00:45:39] It does. It feels better and more engaging.

[00:45:41] I think that that's the atmospheric thing again, too.

[00:45:43] Your emotions are heightened.

[00:45:44] So I think that being on a plane enhances it.

[00:45:47] So one and a half is my plane writing.

[00:45:49] OK, Sarah Carradine,

[00:45:52] bring your soul together.

[00:45:54] And yes, average amount.

[00:45:57] I don't want to lose Eve's respect because I came in

[00:46:01] thinking around a three and a half.

[00:46:07] I'm going to stick quite high.

[00:46:10] I mean, I think it's three is good, right?

[00:46:14] I think that.

[00:46:16] OK, I have been talking about this for 40 minutes,

[00:46:19] and I'm sure the avid listeners will have picked it up.

[00:46:22] There are enough nuggets of interesting things

[00:46:26] that will make you think interesting things and ask yourself interesting

[00:46:30] questions for me to rate it a three, which is a good.

[00:46:37] As for whether I would recommend that people watch it,

[00:46:40] I don't not recommend that people I don't say active avoid.

[00:46:44] Eve says active avoid.

[00:46:47] I say watch it if you would like to.

[00:46:50] I I'm slight in slightly fewer

[00:46:54] months than I was to start with, but they are still here,

[00:46:57] there and everywhere, as you can hear from my rating.

[00:46:58] But I am going to plump for a three and damn the torpedoes.

[00:47:02] Sarah, what about you?

[00:47:04] Wait, maybe I didn't understand the standard

[00:47:06] because I thought one and a half was like a D plus.

[00:47:10] Yes, one and a half is a D plus.

[00:47:12] OK, but a D plus.

[00:47:13] You didn't flunk with the one and a half.

[00:47:15] A D plus, in my opinion, is not active avoid.

[00:47:18] It's just like you made it.

[00:47:20] You know, there's a circumstance in which this might happen.

[00:47:22] So I am not saying I'm not saying I can avoid.

[00:47:25] Yeah, I think I'm.

[00:47:29] I just think I am, despite the fact that we said

[00:47:32] that we don't ask documentary filmmakers to make a documentary

[00:47:35] they didn't set out to make, we actually do.

[00:47:39] And I think there was enough here of interest.

[00:47:43] And despite the central characters, both

[00:47:48] not being that interesting, I don't think Colin Archdeacon is

[00:47:50] as interesting as he thinks he is if he didn't reveal

[00:47:54] what making this film cost him emotionally and psychologically.

[00:47:59] But there's a kind of disgusted fascination,

[00:48:03] I think, that that this itches.

[00:48:07] So no, I'm sticking with three.

[00:48:09] And I would also say.

[00:48:13] Learn more, think more, collaborate

[00:48:15] with a really good documentary filmmaker and Colin Archdeacon's

[00:48:18] second project could be very interesting.

[00:48:24] Sarah, what about you? Help us out here.

[00:48:27] My my rating is going to be higher than either of yours,

[00:48:30] but lower than what I thought I would give it when I came into this discussion,

[00:48:34] which that's the point of the discussion.

[00:48:36] But here's my feeling like the way that it's built

[00:48:40] and the gaps in it and so on and so forth.

[00:48:43] It's like a two.

[00:48:45] But the way that it's flawed in the build,

[00:48:50] the discussion that it created for us and I think just out in the world about

[00:48:58] objectivity, about how traditional construction of documentaries

[00:49:05] serves them or works against them,

[00:49:09] serve some subjects and works against others, so on and so forth.

[00:49:13] I think all of the discussion about how it's flawed,

[00:49:16] in addition to the discussion about how it's good,

[00:49:21] like the ways that it's good and thought provoking.

[00:49:23] That comes in at a five.

[00:49:25] So two plus five is seven.

[00:49:27] Average them together.

[00:49:29] I'm in at a three and a half.

[00:49:31] What did you come in with in your mind?

[00:49:33] Because I came in with three and a half in my mind and dropped it to three.

[00:49:36] Yeah. OK, so it lost half a half a man.

[00:49:39] It lost the handle of a magnifying glass for us through the discussion.

[00:49:43] Yeah. And I mean, that's probably still quote too high, but it's, you know,

[00:49:48] this is a highly personal process and everyone's doing the best they can.

[00:49:54] Let's move on to some things that are doing a little better

[00:49:57] in the ratings department for each of us.

[00:50:00] Recommendations of other stuff to watch, read or think about.

[00:50:03] Eve, what do you have to recommend to our listeners?

[00:50:07] OK, so right now I am working a new day job plus everything else.

[00:50:13] And so I feel like when I am not doing any of this worky stuff,

[00:50:20] I really just want to shut my brain off.

[00:50:22] So I have been binging The Resident, which is a very networky

[00:50:28] hospital show that I think was canceled last year.

[00:50:33] There's six seasons of it.

[00:50:34] It stars Cariagos from The Good Wife and a bunch of other people.

[00:50:39] And it's completely unremarkable and very stagey,

[00:50:44] except that it's weirdly pinko.

[00:50:47] It gives like all these lessons on the importance of the public health system

[00:50:51] and drug companies are evil and all of this.

[00:50:53] And like it doesn't tackle anything with any level of insight or skill,

[00:51:00] but it has a lot of the speaking points that I enjoy.

[00:51:04] Like, you know, there's right now we're getting to the last season

[00:51:07] and there's like a Georgia governor that wants to cut funding for public health

[00:51:11] because he's a Trumpy guy and all that.

[00:51:14] And it's just a good shut off your brain.

[00:51:18] But every once in a while,

[00:51:19] hear your pinko speaking points repeated back to you sort of relaxing thing.

[00:51:23] That's really the only thing I've been consuming outside of work stuff

[00:51:27] for the last few weeks.

[00:51:29] A good old medical procedural to turn the brain off is sometimes recommended.

[00:51:33] I mean, I've become a massive hypochondriac now.

[00:51:36] Of course, every every single thing is substance.

[00:51:38] But yeah, or lupus.

[00:51:41] Yep. Sarah Carradine, what about you?

[00:51:43] Well, I'm going to hop into the crime scene time machine again.

[00:51:47] Take us back to 2008.

[00:51:49] Thinking about journalists or people who become intrigued by murderers.

[00:51:55] I'm going to recommend the book Wicked Intention,

[00:51:58] which is Kevin Flynn from Crime Riders On.

[00:52:02] And these are their stories.

[00:52:03] Previous guest of the pod, past and future, I hope.

[00:52:07] It's his book on the Sheila Labar murders.

[00:52:11] He I mean, his story is interesting because this is what I was thinking

[00:52:15] about when I was asking for Archdeacon's reflection

[00:52:18] on what telling this story did to him.

[00:52:23] Kevin Flynn had to pretend to go

[00:52:28] and question and have a relationship, let us say, with Sheila Labar

[00:52:33] in order that she open up to him.

[00:52:35] And I think that's where that type of relationship is

[00:52:40] is exploited in the best way and explicated in the best way.

[00:52:44] So the book Wicked Intentions from 2008.

[00:52:47] And I know a bookshop where you might be able to find it.

[00:52:50] What about you, Sarah?

[00:52:52] Well, we'll get to that bookshop in just a second.

[00:52:55] And I do have wicked intention in stock as it happens.

[00:52:59] But I just finished listening to a book called King Richard,

[00:53:03] Nixon and Watergate, an American tragedy by Michael Dobbs.

[00:53:07] It was read by Mark Bramhall, who

[00:53:11] over the course of like 12 or 13 hours of the book, his Nixon impression

[00:53:17] improved and as well.

[00:53:21] He's working off recently or Dobbs was working off recently

[00:53:24] released just like the sort of info dump

[00:53:28] of all of the tapes from the Nixon White House, even like bullshit

[00:53:32] where he's just on the phone with Trisha talking about tulips or whatever the hell.

[00:53:37] So he's working off of those tapes.

[00:53:38] But for the audio book, he slices in clips

[00:53:42] of like Nixon talking to Haldeman, occasionally Nixon talking to Trisha.

[00:53:47] Not about tulips, but it's it's quite well done.

[00:53:51] It's very judiciously used audio.

[00:53:55] Mark Bramhall is a great narrator.

[00:53:58] I look forward to listening to other stuff that he narrates in the future.

[00:54:02] And I got it from the library.

[00:54:05] So if you're feeling all cheap,

[00:54:08] you can probably listen to or read that for free on your library app.

[00:54:14] If that is your deal.

[00:54:18] At Crimestain, we're eager to hear your feedback

[00:54:20] and suggestions for future episodes.

[00:54:22] You can follow crime scene on Twitter at crime scene.

[00:54:25] R.H.A.P. That's S.E.E.N.

[00:54:28] Or email us at crime scene.

[00:54:29] R.H.A.P. at Gmail dot com.

[00:54:32] We're on Tick Tock at crime dot scene and all other social media

[00:54:36] at crime scene podcast.

[00:54:38] All of this is in the show notes.

[00:54:42] Fantastic, Eve, what do you have going on and where can people find you?

[00:54:46] I know this already, but the listeners.

[00:54:50] Well, Sarah, I work with you at Best Evidence,

[00:54:53] which you can find at best evidence dot f y.

[00:54:55] I'm loving our new home at Reality Blurred.

[00:54:59] It's great being on a website again.

[00:55:01] It's just a lot of fun.

[00:55:02] But people can also just get everything that we write

[00:55:07] straight to their inbox by subscribing to best evidence

[00:55:10] on button down, which you can do.

[00:55:12] You got a best evidence dot f y.

[00:55:13] It'll be very easy to find the link to subscribe in

[00:55:18] on the weekends.

[00:55:19] I'm a weekend writer at Vanity Fair, which is something that I will be able

[00:55:24] to continue to do this weekend because the full time employees of Condon

[00:55:27] Nest are on the road to a contract.

[00:55:30] So nobody had to go on strike yesterday, which is great.

[00:55:33] And on the weekdays, I'm the dining and food editor

[00:55:38] at Indianapolis Monthly magazine.

[00:55:41] So if you're interested in food or restaurants in Indianapolis,

[00:55:46] which is probably a pretty narrow to non-existent segment of your readership.

[00:55:51] But we're at Indianapolis Monthly dot com.

[00:55:54] Fantastic. Thanks so much for coming back.

[00:55:57] Thank you for having me.

[00:55:59] Oh, of course. What have you got going on?

[00:56:01] And where can people find you?

[00:56:03] Well, people can follow me if they'd like to do that at Sarah

[00:56:05] Carradine on all the things over on silent podcasts.

[00:56:09] I'm covering season 17 of Taskmaster UK.

[00:56:13] Soon we'll be covering season three of Taskmaster Australia,

[00:56:18] followed by season two of Taskmaster Australia.

[00:56:21] Don't ask us. We don't know either.

[00:56:24] And also the current season of Alone Australia season two,

[00:56:29] which is hotting up, that is to say it is freezing cold.

[00:56:33] Sam Smith from The Traders New Zealand and I are covering

[00:56:36] The Traders Quebec, despite neither of us speaking French.

[00:56:41] And that podcast is called What Did They Fronze?

[00:56:45] And how about you, Sarah? Love it. Love that.

[00:56:47] I'm sorry. I'm very pleased with myself with that title.

[00:56:50] I can't help it.

[00:56:52] Chef's Kiss, truly.

[00:56:54] I run a true crime bookstore.

[00:56:57] It's where true crime is told and sold mostly secondhand items.

[00:57:01] It's called Exhibit B Books because of the secondhand.

[00:57:05] Also, because my last name is Bunting.

[00:57:07] There's a lot going on there.

[00:57:08] And one of the things that's going on there is Kevin Flynn's book.

[00:57:12] Another thing that's going on is that you crime scene listeners

[00:57:14] have your own sale code 15 percent off with the code XCS15.

[00:57:21] That's XCS15.

[00:57:23] Just enter that to check out, get 15 percent off.

[00:57:26] And as you're listening to this, there's a big sale on paperbacks.

[00:57:30] So stock up on those beach reads.

[00:57:33] Today, Exhibit B Books dot com

[00:57:37] and Exhibit B Books on various social media.

[00:57:40] I post a lot on Instagram.

[00:57:42] Random JFK crackpot tomes are a subspecialty of the shop.

[00:57:47] So if you're looking for anything in particular, come on through.

[00:57:52] Sarah, what are we watching next week?

[00:57:54] Next time on crime scene, we're covering the interrogation tapes

[00:57:58] with returning guest Jason Reed.

[00:58:01] Watch it on Hulu and send us your comments and questions.

[00:58:04] Thanks so much to Eve Beatty for joining us, to Will from America

[00:58:08] for the theme music and the whole RHAP team behind the scenes.

[00:58:13] Until next time, case closed.

[00:58:23] With the lucky landslides, you can get lucky just about anywhere.

[00:58:39] This is your captain speaking.

[00:58:40] We've got clear runway and the weather's fine, but we're just

[00:58:43] going to circle up here a while and get lucky.

[00:58:46] No, no, nothing like that.

[00:58:48] It's just these cash prizes add up quick.

[00:58:50] So I suggest you sit back, keep your tray table upright and start getting lucky.

[00:58:54] Play for free at lucky landslides dot com.

[00:58:57] Are you feeling lucky?

[00:58:58] No purchase necessary.

[00:59:00] Void were prohibited by law.

[00:59:01] Eighteen plus terms and conditions apply.

[00:59:03] See website for details.

[00:59:06] Step into the world of power, loyalty and luck.

[00:59:10] I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse.

[00:59:13] With family, cannolis and spins mean everything.

[00:59:17] Now you want to get mixed up in the family business.

[00:59:20] Introducing the Godfather at Chompacasino dot com.

[00:59:24] Test your luck in the shadowy world of the Godfather slots.

[00:59:28] Someday I will call upon you to do a service for me.

[00:59:31] Play the Godfather now at Chompacasino dot com.

[00:59:34] Welcome to the family.

[00:59:36] No purchase necessary.

[00:59:36] VGW group. Void were prohibited by law.

[00:59:38] Eighteen plus terms and conditions apply.

[00:59:40] It is Ryan here and I have a question for you.

[00:59:42] What do you do when you win?

[00:59:45] Like are you a fist pumper, a woo-hooer, a hand clapper, a high fiver?

[00:59:49] I kind of like the high five, but if you want to hone in on those winning moves,

[00:59:52] check out Chompacasino at Chompacasino dot com.

[00:59:54] Choose from hundreds of social casino style games for your chance to redeem serious cash prizes.

[01:00:00] There are new game releases weekly plus free daily bonuses.

[01:00:03] So don't wait. Start having the most fun ever at Chompacasino dot com.

[01:00:07] No purchase necessary.

[01:00:08] VGW group. Void were prohibited by law.

[01:00:09] C terms and conditions. Eighteen plus.

[01:00:10] Step into the world of power, loyalty and luck.

[01:00:15] I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse.

[01:00:18] Where family, cannolis and spins mean everything.

[01:00:22] Now you want to get mixed up in the family business.

[01:00:24] Introducing the Godfather at Chompacasino dot com.

[01:00:29] Test your luck in the shadowy world of the Godfather slot.

[01:00:32] Someday I will call upon you to do a service for me.

[01:00:36] Play the Godfather now at Chompacasino dot com.

[01:00:39] Welcome to the family.

[01:00:40] No purchase necessary. VGW group.

[01:00:42] Void were prohibited by law.

[01:00:43] Eighteen plus terms and conditions apply.

[01:00:44] It's time for today's Lucky Land horoscope with Victoria Cash.

[01:00:49] Life's gotten mundane.

[01:00:50] So shake up the daily routine and be adventurous with a trip to Lucky Land.

[01:00:54] You know what they say, your chance to win starts with a spin.

[01:00:57] So go to Lucky Land slots dot com to play over 100 social casino style games for free

[01:01:02] for your chance to redeem some serious prizes.

[01:01:05] Get lucky today at Lucky Land slots dot com.

[01:01:09] Available to players in the U.S.

[01:01:10] Excluding Washington and Michigan. No purchase necessary.

[01:01:12] VGW group void prohibited by law.

[01:01:13] Eighteen plus terms and conditions apply.