Crime Seen | Episode 103: Under the Bridge

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[00:00:50] Hello everyone and welcome to Crime Seen, the true crime review podcast where we get to the

[00:00:56] heart of how true crime stories are told. I'm Sarah Carradine podcasting from Gadigal,

[00:01:01] Sydney. And I'm Sarah DeBunting keeping the chair warm for Mari Forth who is on maternity

[00:01:07] leave and I'm in beautiful Bay Ridge, Brooklyn, New York. I have my particularly croaky

[00:01:13] throat. Thank you, Flu. But let us proceed. Sarah, welcome to Crime Seen. We're so happy.

[00:01:22] And it's so amazing to have you here filling in for Mari stepping up.

[00:01:29] I am delighted to be here honored to be here. Very big shoes to fill but I wear a

[00:01:37] nine and a half so I will do my best. I think we're both tall girls with the big feet. I wear a 10.

[00:01:46] So last week we watched the first episode of The Jinx part two with Cold Case Investigator

[00:01:52] Sarah Kaelin. There are six episodes altogether. They're dropping weekly on Max.

[00:01:57] Sarah, what are your thoughts on The Jinx part two? We have slightly mixed reaction but

[00:02:03] generally cautiously positive. That's pretty much how we felt over at Best Evidence. My

[00:02:11] esteemed colleagues Eve Beatty, Andy Dennard and I talked about it. I think the morning after

[00:02:17] the first couple of episodes had dropped or the first one had dropped, we had seen the first four.

[00:02:24] Check my screen or privilege. I think cautiously optimistic is about right. We kind of came

[00:02:30] out that it's not essential for it to exist and yet because it's from this team, it is extremely

[00:02:39] well built and like it's a pleasing sit in terms of the construction. So even though

[00:02:46] like it seems to exist almost out of time, like in a before time from when the first one

[00:02:53] came out and I think we thought of true crime differently especially since this property,

[00:03:03] The Jinx part one along with cereal and a couple of other properties in the mid teens like

[00:03:10] you know almost 10 years ago sort of not reset the bar but it did sort of like show us another

[00:03:19] path of prestige true crime narrative like just storytelling and construction.

[00:03:26] So you know we trust the build from Jarecki et al but it's also like true crime is different now

[00:03:36] like we're on the not really on the other side of a pandemic but for the purposes of moving on

[00:03:42] in this sentence and you know 2020 that wasn't the only thing going on. There was really a lot of

[00:03:52] meta thought being given to who benefits from true crime to who benefits from police centered

[00:04:00] stories and so on and so forth. I don't really have to explain to anyone listening to this

[00:04:05] how that went so it was interesting to me on a meta level as someone who thinks a lot about

[00:04:12] how true crime is told and sold that's why I'm here to look at The Jinx part two

[00:04:20] in the context of itself and to wonder whether it and its production team really understand

[00:04:28] when we are in the timeline of quote prestige true crime that's all very like vague but I mean like

[00:04:38] four and a half yeah fine glasses I guess I mean yeah it's good I just think it doesn't know why it is

[00:04:49] maybe yeah watching it are you yeah absolutely uh I I mean Mari and I gave it a four and

[00:04:57] Sarah gave it a three I mean side note I'm getting as many Sarah's who podcast about true crime

[00:05:04] onto this show as I can. Crime Sarah. Crime Sarah what did we say all Sarah's no bullshit maybe some

[00:05:11] bullshit but we yes we did talk about that idea of what's current about not just the story

[00:05:22] but the way the story is told and the reflection of where and when we are now it's very easy to have

[00:05:28] missed spoiler he died two years ago yeah this was a surprise to two of the three on the panel

[00:05:36] they accused me of spoiling them I said it was in all the papers but I myself had had to look

[00:05:41] it up to remind myself that he had died and in addition the idea of we don't like stories

[00:05:49] that give or rather we don't like properties that give the perpetrator space and time and a platform

[00:05:57] to talk generally and yet because it's the jinx and because it's barbie, Durst okay bye bye

[00:06:06] there's an advantage to having a cold I can my Bobby Durst is better okay this is a cold call from

[00:06:12] Bob I'm Bob and they talk about this actually in later episodes that he is this like weirdly

[00:06:21] cobwebily charismatic character and always has been and what do you as an ethical true crime

[00:06:29] content producer what do you do with that like what can you do with that like his whole deal is so

[00:06:37] wild like I get wanting to center him but yeah it's like he won't

[00:06:44] he won't be unscathed that's right yeah and and i sarah and I had both rewatched the

[00:06:51] the first six parts and it's sort of definitely part of the family it is essentially episode seven

[00:06:59] you know and I am used myself by wondering if the reenactment actor for for bobby was the same one

[00:07:06] as nine years ago that would have been a bit of a kudity art and I I think I came to the conclusion

[00:07:14] not so reluctantly as one would think that yes we do need to hear from him otherwise we really can't

[00:07:20] understand this we really can't understand the the goings on shall we say well I think it's also

[00:07:29] useful to remember which I had forgotten like the kind of

[00:07:37] chopped up jazz timeline that all of this was on and that they had started sitting and recording with him

[00:07:47] like in 2010 or something and then I had completely forgotten the whole timeline with like

[00:07:53] he was fixing to flee the country on the eve of the season finale of the first one

[00:08:01] and like who knew what in law enforcement so that is not uninteresting but then there are certain

[00:08:09] extremely conventional traditional aspects of the second part which is like this is an account of

[00:08:16] adjudication that are not doing anything interesting they're not setting up from another point of view

[00:08:24] and you do sort of wonder like

[00:08:28] you know is this being made so that uh jerracky and steward pontier and the rest can kind of

[00:08:36] have narrative closure on this project and then finally after almost 20 years think about

[00:08:42] something else but I don't I don't know and it's not for me to tell the HBO

[00:08:49] c-suite that they shouldn't put this out because it's you know like I said it's well made but

[00:08:56] I think it's not asking the questions of it that all of the critics are asking yeah look I think

[00:09:02] that's insightful I'm you know holding my final judgment as I sit in judgment until I've seen

[00:09:09] it all I think it's probably still going to score a high number of magnifying glasses because it is very

[00:09:15] well made but it just doesn't I just I wonder about its currency and what is it talking about now

[00:09:23] and I just think jerracky had a fantastic opportunity to reflect on the nine years since

[00:09:29] and on his own blah blah but that wasn't the thing that he wanted to do which is fine

[00:09:34] but it's just I think it's almost been surpassed and at a time it was a benchmark

[00:09:41] it's it's very interesting to go back so look I'm not I'm not mad at it

[00:09:46] yeah well and it's it's something that you've seen this year also with cereal yeah that it's

[00:09:52] like this was a vanguard that doesn't realize that it's been unvanguarded now a rear guard

[00:10:01] yeah yeah right let's get on to this week we watched the first four episodes of under the bridge

[00:10:10] that's the eight part scripted series on Hulu created by Quinn Shepard and based on the book by

[00:10:17] Rebecca Godfrey so I'll hop straight into the crime but generally we spoil everything

[00:10:24] but as only four episodes of the eight have dropped as we record it'll be five as you listen

[00:10:29] to this podcast and although the series is based on a true story we will be careful about spoilers

[00:10:37] I think beyond the facts of the first four so I will just say in British Columbia in 1997

[00:10:45] 14 year old Reena Burke was beaten and drowned in a saltwater inlet known as the gorge waterway

[00:10:51] by a group of teenagers and we won't go any further than that into the trials or convictions

[00:10:57] if there are any as that is ahead of us in our episodes Sarah I believe you have seen all eight

[00:11:05] I have seen all eight okay you may vaguely refer so Rebecca Godfrey wrote a book in 2005

[00:11:14] also called under the bridge about the event the investigations and the outcome

[00:11:19] and she appears as a character in the series before her death in 2022

[00:11:24] she chose Riley Keo to play her I just found out 20 minutes ago and I thought was very interesting

[00:11:31] Sarah why don't you get us started with your overall thoughts on the whole series

[00:11:35] as you've seen it all let's not pretend you haven't

[00:11:40] my overall thoughts well I wrote about this on best evidence that you know this is a project

[00:11:47] that we had known was coming and we had known about the casting of it for a while

[00:11:54] and it kept showing up like when you're on these lists of like here's the spring slate for Pulu

[00:12:01] that it kept being pushed back or not being given a drop date and that tends to not be a great

[00:12:08] sign this isn't always true but if they can't find a place to put it or like if you're

[00:12:15] having that much trouble with this high profile of project clearing music rights or whatever the

[00:12:21] reason is that what I don't know is a lot but I was concerned that we had been hearing like

[00:12:28] oh maybe in November of 2023 maybe in February of 2024 finally we get a drop date and I was like

[00:12:36] we've been waiting for this shit for a while and I don't know like I don't know what to expect

[00:12:43] we got the screeners I sat down and it was immediately I mean I hate the word I hate the

[00:12:50] words immersive and propulsive in reviews but sometimes you got to do it and it was immersive

[00:12:57] you've got an excellent sense of place it was shot beautifully Riley Keo I think it was fine

[00:13:05] in it was Daisy Jones in the six right it was yes that show was so forgettable but I was like

[00:13:11] well she's fine I'm just not going to keep on with that show just my opinion same but couldn't finish it

[00:13:18] she was perfect here every like every single aspect of the casting was perfect and particularly the

[00:13:26] kids some of whom are being called on to play either just chilling lack of empathy or

[00:13:37] or you know imperfect victim shit that like when you're looking at it you're like oh my god I was

[00:13:44] such a little ass to my parents when I was that age and you're just like brought right back there

[00:13:51] or you're in Lily Gladstone's case the great Lily Gladstone who I'm not a crackpot she sounds

[00:13:59] a lot like BB Newworth which is that she's being called on to play this composite

[00:14:06] cop character who didn't necessarily quote exist in the real story and that you have to

[00:14:16] especially at this point in the true crime timeline that if you're going to have this like

[00:14:21] protagonist law enforcement character you you got to have someone like that who projects

[00:14:29] authority but in a thoughtful way that the viewer is going to get on her side

[00:14:36] and the backstory of that character is of course complicated by a bunch of things

[00:14:42] so I just was immediately impressed and interested and this wasn't a story or a property that I

[00:14:52] had spent a lot of time with so they actually had an advantage there that I could take it on its own

[00:15:00] terms and just sort of be surrounded by it if it was effective in that way which it absolutely

[00:15:08] was I would not characterize it as fun to watch but not very effective and in the in the like

[00:15:19] up to the middle or sort of like until the last third quite elliptical in the parallels that it's

[00:15:26] drawing with the Rebecca character and her past so I mean yeah it's it's great it was worth waiting

[00:15:34] for that was the headline I put on it on best evidence that it was like okay few like not only

[00:15:42] was it worth waiting for actually had to stop in the middle of the screeners and force myself

[00:15:46] to like write the review and get it out so yeah I recommend it for sure yeah I I had the same thoughts

[00:15:54] I didn't I knew of the book I knew the bare bones or even like half a skeleton of what the real story

[00:16:01] was but it was it was a project that was exciting excitement and even you know out in the

[00:16:09] out beyond the pale of the no-screener land I was aware of it and we had it you know on our

[00:16:15] rotating list of things that we wanted to talk about like a really long time and like you I thought

[00:16:21] what's what's wrong with it right are the legal issues is it just not very good are they reshooting

[00:16:29] what's happening yeah so it is a bit of a house has been on the market for a while

[00:16:33] and then the price goes down and you're like but there's four bathrooms is this shit haunted

[00:16:38] what's happening yeah when you when you go to a department store and there are clothes on sale

[00:16:43] you've got to ask yourself why are these on sale hmm but for some reason this isn't on sale this

[00:16:49] should be full price should be premium price I mean I have a few thoughts which we'll get into

[00:16:56] that take away very very slightly uh well not even take away they're just things I went

[00:17:02] yes I would have done that differently but I was I was I watched I waited for four to pile up

[00:17:09] because I thought I could without timing of when we were going to talk about it and I literally

[00:17:15] came to the end of the fourth one and went where are the other three episodes I'm supposed to be

[00:17:20] watching it's not fast by any means and I like your use the word elliptical because we get the

[00:17:28] death or or apparent death really early I thought how can we have like seven more

[00:17:35] episodes is the investigation so complex but then it just swings back and there's this little girl

[00:17:43] who we'd been mourning as dead and there she is being a little biatch to her mother

[00:17:52] and the swings backwards and forwards of her alive her dead her alive her dead

[00:17:56] or her alive her missing her alive her dead I thought that's such a fantastic evocation of grief

[00:18:04] as well of how the timeline around someone's death when you're in it and then when you get past

[00:18:13] it is did that happen then were they still alive do I imagine this happening with them

[00:18:18] so I thought that was particularly powerful and yeah you've you've opened the door so let's talk about

[00:18:27] the insertion of Rebecca Godfrey into the series and the creation of Cam Bentley

[00:18:35] who is the character that Lily Gladstone plays and it immediately reminded me of

[00:18:41] the tattooist of Auschwitz which as we speak premier tonight on stan everybody has to

[00:18:46] watch it it's brilliant it's an adaptation of the book the tattooist of Auschwitz and the supremely

[00:18:54] talented screenwriter who wrote the series insisted on putting the writer of the book into

[00:19:02] the television series as a sort of now and then kind of balance and so it reminded me so

[00:19:09] much of that and I thought this is so interesting now this is current this is contemporary

[00:19:14] because it's saying who are these people who are inscribing the stories writing the book the tattooist

[00:19:22] of Auschwitz from a memory told to her writing the book under the bridge as a journalist going back

[00:19:30] to a place where she herself had been a troubled teen she herself had had a death of her brother

[00:19:36] so what did you think sort of narratively and thematically of both putting Rebecca Godfrey

[00:19:43] into the story and not changing her name and creating Lily Gladstone's character Cam

[00:19:51] and then making a relationship like a previous relationship with them which complicates the

[00:19:56] issues well as the series goes on the or is the episodes unfold they make the they make

[00:20:09] the subtext a bit more text in terms of the appropriate or inappropriate nature of Godfrey

[00:20:19] sort of involving herself with this story and the ways in which she embeds with these kids

[00:20:29] and I was not as as much as I liked that they just sort of let the viewer get there on her

[00:20:36] own in the early going I was less of a fan of them kind of you know clicking the desk lamp on

[00:20:43] over that yeah and particularly in this you know one event in Godfrey's past which

[00:20:53] you know I don't think it's a spoiler the circumstances around the brother's death are

[00:21:02] like remain pretty murky throughout sort of literally so I apologize that that was inappropriate

[00:21:10] that adjective but I think that the what they are good at is not over emphasizing

[00:21:20] this idea that ideas about objectivity in like documentary or like narrative nonfiction that

[00:21:34] there's this idea that in a documentary or a reported book or story that you know

[00:21:42] objectivity and just sort of a straight transcript of events is prioritized over a more messy

[00:21:53] first-hand like diaristic account and what does it you know why do we believe a law enforcement

[00:22:04] version of that that isn't necessarily any more quote objective or truthful like who

[00:22:12] who do we believe who do we listen to and what are we telling ourselves about who we choose

[00:22:21] when we when we choose perhaps not even consciously but like which accounts do we

[00:22:28] quote rely on as truthful and is that a mistake is that incorrect because I think that this depiction

[00:22:40] of Rebecca Godfrey is at times like frustrating maddening like she can be self-destructive or

[00:22:52] you know if you're a journalist or a critic and you see her putting herself into a given

[00:22:56] situation to kind of get closer to her subjects you're like you know but now you're compromised

[00:23:03] okay but is she why do I think that what is more important getting these 15 year olds who

[00:23:15] idolized John Gotti oh they're bubbly handwriting to trust her or her being sort of like

[00:23:25] I don't know like rigidly doctrinaire about the interview process and the embedding process

[00:23:33] so there are much larger comments on objectivity and its relationship to quote truth as we understand

[00:23:43] it that are not asterisked and I really liked that also because I had to like pause it at one point

[00:23:54] and just sort of unskool my own thoughts and my notes about like why is this character so uncomfortable

[00:24:01] at times for me to watch when she's just like at some red solo cup party with these games

[00:24:10] oh yes that's very distressing reaction so yeah I thought that was a solid choice

[00:24:17] Cam Nyland is sort of like if they had had anyone else playing her I don't know

[00:24:25] but there's a it's interesting like there's a similar um it was a tv movie about the

[00:24:30] Thalia Massey case from the 80s and I reviewed it like a couple months ago

[00:24:35] and there's they did a similar thing with a composite cop character who was played by Chris

[00:24:40] Christofferson and it was like this says that no fucking business working at all but it's Chris

[00:24:46] Christofferson he really wear that hat he really wants to bone Sean Young and you buy it you buy

[00:24:52] all of it and it's like sometimes when they're trying to get over with a character like this it's

[00:24:58] like well they cast it correctly yeah I'm not you know I'm not proud of it but I'm going with it

[00:25:06] because it's like Lily Gladstone so yes I don't know yes what did you think of the

[00:25:14] what's the what's the phrase I want when it came to the Rebecca Godfrey quote character

[00:25:20] what did you think of her um sort of nuanced like what did you think of the frustrating

[00:25:30] verite qualities of this character let's put it that way I I mean I went on a bit of an

[00:25:36] interesting journey and and we were just talking about the jinx and Jerecki who appears

[00:25:41] lest we forget quite a lot in part one and is apparently going to appear even more in part two

[00:25:46] so when we see Rebecca when she is a character uh is she us okay that I'm comfortable I have

[00:25:58] found the person who was me who was going to go into the story and be me and she will be my

[00:26:06] narrator in my guide and almost immediately she's not which I loved absolutely loved

[00:26:12] and almost immediately journalistic integrity out the window but is it am I just wanting to

[00:26:24] have this idea or have I been fed this idea that journalistic integrity can only be

[00:26:30] arms length scrupulous heartless bloodless all the president's men fantastic movie based on

[00:26:39] real life uh but that idea of journalists these two men searching for the truth ironclad

[00:26:49] not getting involved emotionally but the truth itself being this this kind of ambrosia that you're

[00:26:55] going for and that is not the Rebecca Godfrey character whether it was Rebecca Godfrey herself

[00:27:01] I don't know but she was involved so some kind of blessing was passed on I loved her arriving home

[00:27:11] I loved that I understood her relationship with her mother immediately her mother having made all the

[00:27:16] food but not coming out of the kitchen to hug her they got that family relationship so right

[00:27:23] that then her I was gonna say quirks they weren't quirks faults of going blindly into this world

[00:27:34] of these teenage girls before she knows what they've done the potential damage that she can do

[00:27:43] how we see the girl the character whose name is Josephine Bell in the series

[00:27:52] played by Chloe Gaudry fantastic fantastic acting here and you know her desire oh you come from New

[00:28:03] York I want to go to New York I want to go with Goddy I want to be a maid woman that's not how

[00:28:11] the mafia works but her like she has all new yorkers know each other yeah exactly back

[00:28:19] I can just like let's hop in the car and go to his social club like that's not and that idea of

[00:28:24] I can stay with you the naivety of that along with what my mother called very knowing she thought

[00:28:34] the girls who were bad influences on me were very knowing little did she know that I was the bad

[00:28:40] influence not the other girls but putting that character of Josephine against the Rebecca character

[00:28:52] and her immediately diving in immediately making promises that she has no business making

[00:28:57] immediately holding out a hope to this poor damaged child this dangerous damaged child

[00:29:05] without protecting herself the family the children I was a whirl but I also loved it because it

[00:29:14] smashes that idea of you can't be a journalist if you get involved you can't be a journalist if

[00:29:21] you know we sit on law and order oh you can't investigate this case because it's too close

[00:29:25] to something that happened in your real life but nobody's saying that to Rebecca who's

[00:29:31] whose brother drowned and she's investigating the drowning of a of a teen herself why shouldn't she

[00:29:40] why wouldn't it make her more invested so I'm really fascinated by that idea of you know we love

[00:29:45] the flawed hero but this goes beyond a flawed hero she's not even a hero and then you put her

[00:29:52] against against with however you want to say it this cam bentland character the gift of of casting

[00:30:00] lily gladstone that is a gift from lily to the filmmakers not the other way around

[00:30:06] and the complexity that she brings just by being in a show but it's more than that she's

[00:30:14] thought very much I read an interview with her where she she brings the indigenous nature of the

[00:30:22] character's indigenous because she's indigenous wasn't necessarily written as an indigenous

[00:30:27] character but it now is because she is and she talks about the bridge under which rena died

[00:30:36] as being a bridge between crown land and and indigenous land and even though you don't need

[00:30:42] those facts you have that then she's adopted by a white family just anyway it's stunning love that

[00:30:54] my one little hiccup was the introduction of her and her brother and her father and their

[00:30:59] boxing and this and I thought very much of of a podcast I listened to quite a lot by the

[00:31:03] name of Sarah debunting who says didn't you have any siblings can you write a sibling

[00:31:08] relationship I don't know if more happens after episode four but I find their sibling relationship

[00:31:16] under interesting whether it's underwritten or I don't know yeah they needed to either do

[00:31:23] more with that or not do it not do it at all yeah although I don't know why we need him

[00:31:28] I don't know why Daniel demer as her brother Scott was good and you know the the great Matt

[00:31:36] Craven seen in like almost everything absolutely a superb casting but yeah playing her you know the

[00:31:45] police chief and her adoptive father and the way that he the way that he communicated I think

[00:31:56] generations of the frustrations that adopted people have with the unexamined

[00:32:09] the unexamined lives of their adopters like he has one thing that's like I don't know

[00:32:16] that she's trying to like get promoted in her career which means that she will be leaving this

[00:32:22] community and he has just a like I forget when which episode it's in but he has just a drive-by

[00:32:28] comment about like an off you'll go to the big city because you think you're better than us and

[00:32:34] the under like the subtext is like you know after everything we've done for you yes like

[00:32:40] I mean so much of this biological parents can pull that one as well but yeah how much more of

[00:32:46] a sting is it from an adoptive father I mean see my father still being like do you you know

[00:32:52] I'll sell you the house for a dollar like I can't no not going back to New Jersey I can't carry the

[00:32:59] property taxes sorry you raised a poet hey it's Kaylee Cuoco for price line ready to go to your

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[00:33:31] got your happy price price line the number of ways in which this story is about

[00:33:40] children being left like left in the past left in a puddle left at a group home

[00:33:52] left out of investigations and conversations about their own futures just it was really

[00:34:00] fairly subtly done but just the way that children are like left behind and not heard

[00:34:10] in so many ways in this story but that the story then lets you hear from them good and bad

[00:34:20] is really well done and not easy it's not easy to do even if you set yourself that task it's

[00:34:26] not easy to do while not losing sight of the victim right I mean we want we always want victim

[00:34:33] centered and if you haven't seen it and you're just listening to us first of all stop and go and watch

[00:34:39] it but we never forget Rena we never forget it because she's either on the screen or in our

[00:34:47] minds because we are urging people who don't know things to find them out things that we

[00:34:53] know that they don't know there's a very judicious doling out of information we don't want to be too

[00:34:59] far ahead of the characters because then they're you know a bit so stupid and bubbling but we don't

[00:35:04] want to be too far behind them because then we feel stupid and bumbling so I think there's a

[00:35:11] it's not a knife edge but it's quite a narrow it's quite a narrow beam that's being walked here

[00:35:18] and it gives an excitement which is belied by much of the pace being not frenetic and then you have

[00:35:28] children running through the night desperately right afraid or violent that smashes through

[00:35:34] but then back to quite a stately pace which I really liked you have Rena exploding at her parents

[00:35:41] what did you think of the pacing of the flashbacks because I was specifically impressed by

[00:35:50] look nobody likes the you know you see a scene and then it's like title card four days earlier

[00:35:56] that you're like for crisis like can everyone just not do that for a period of 16 to 18 months

[00:36:04] moratorium 18 months no title cards thank you but the way the way they do it here like you get so

[00:36:12] used to this more traditional like we're going to start with this here's the whatever the crime

[00:36:18] scene and then we're going to flash back to this time and then step forward to this time

[00:36:24] as you said before the way that it kind of zigzags through the timeline is it does reflect

[00:36:32] the way that grief can zigzag but also sometimes they just go back and they're like 10 months before

[00:36:40] and then the scene is like 90 seconds long or two minutes long instead of that more stately like

[00:36:46] here's where we are and here's how you can tell it's a different time because everybody's like roots

[00:36:50] are a different length or whatever like they're not as cute about that like since we went back

[00:36:56] to this timeline we're going to use all the footage we shot and it's going to be five

[00:37:00] minutes like nobody cares but then there's also an episode about her about rena verks and the verk

[00:37:07] families uh coming to canada um how they integrated or tried to um with like white canadian

[00:37:20] culture and that those i was like i don't know like did did you just like get these bell

[00:37:28] bottoms and you felt like we had to spend time here but then that winds up adding to the the

[00:37:35] dimensions i thought so the use of moving around in the timeline and flashbacks

[00:37:43] it usually makes me so impatient so it was particularly impressive here that they had

[00:37:47] such a short touch with how long we were going to spend in various wends did you agree

[00:37:55] uh yeah for the most part i think it's very very judicious and illuminating and it just

[00:38:02] it's so clever too because every time we see rena particularly after we know she's dead

[00:38:09] i mean we know she's going to die from the start because we're watching the show we have some idea

[00:38:13] about it but let's say so that every time it flashes back and we see her face this child

[00:38:20] this 14 year old child who's so unmoored from her family trying to find out where she belongs

[00:38:28] she isn't blonde she isn't white she isn't slim that's the ideal because josephine bell

[00:38:35] is like that and she is the ideal so every time we flash back and we see her alive and we see

[00:38:41] her face it's just heart stopping so i liked that i agree about the title cards if you do it

[00:38:48] well enough we know when it is and in a way it sort of doesn't matter if it's four days or 10 days or

[00:38:54] two months we get the idea what i do think they did well is it's not necessarily immediately obvious

[00:39:05] why we've gone back to look at a certain thing so it's not like the detective finds a necklace

[00:39:11] flashback the mother gives the child a necklace it's not that but it's like this cross illumination

[00:39:19] from forwards and backwards which i really like which i really like and in fact the title cards

[00:39:24] interfere with don't tell me when it is i'll figure it out like i do trust you as the filmmakers

[00:39:30] i wanted to talk about the character of raj masi haja played by anoop desai he's rena's uncle

[00:39:40] and i thought for a while that he would be almost taking over some narration from rebecca

[00:39:46] godfrey not literal narration but that we might be following him again no that was dangled and then

[00:39:54] smashed he is her friend and for us almost her only friend perhaps she thinks that as well

[00:40:04] and he also seems to have taken on the burden of family spokesperson and i thought this was such

[00:40:11] a fascinating role to not exactly eliminate but to have to spend time with for the writers to allow us

[00:40:20] to spend time with him because that is a very difficult role that we don't often see i mean role

[00:40:26] in real life the family spokesman and i i think also that speaking of judicious this is an actor who

[00:40:38] i mean there's a couple of actors here that are like household names i guess like archi punjabi

[00:40:44] as uh suman burk who is rena's mom um lily gladstone of course uh riley keo of course and

[00:40:51] you know some others that it's like oh i've seen i've seen such and so like matt craven is a hey it's

[00:40:56] that guy but anoop desai is a better known person i would say so your assumption is that

[00:41:05] this person has been cast to be um used to be on the screen to locate you in the story

[00:41:16] in this like extra textual way and he's really not used the way you would expect you would think

[00:41:25] that he would be on screen more you would think he would like have a vo you would think that he

[00:41:30] and uh rebecca are gonna end up sort of like teaming up in some way um and like he he acts it

[00:41:40] extraordinarily well that this is a person who probably could be a bridge himself between um

[00:41:51] rena and her own story using rebecca between law enforcement and this you know quote girl gang

[00:41:59] that i think the canadian press went a little overboard with that um you know cardboard cut

[00:42:05] out of a of a motivation but he just is himself like he's not a quote character that is used for

[00:42:15] something he's just himself like he could be a connector and sometimes he is um but not in a

[00:42:25] not in that way that you're expecting having seen you know many docu dramas and many mini series and

[00:42:33] just sort of being like oh because i recognize that actor he's going to take our take the audience's

[00:42:39] hand in a way that he doesn't really not that he's not good or well used he is it's just not

[00:42:45] what you expect and that's exactly always kept thinking of when i was watching under the bridge

[00:42:51] was they they're not they're not they're following the story as the story wants to be told

[00:43:03] yes absolutely the rhythms of he's not mr exposition additional yeah it's not a by numbers thing

[00:43:12] they're not necessarily doing they're telling the story as the story wants to be told and like

[00:43:18] listening to what the story is telling them to do in a way that i have not actually read the book

[00:43:26] yet but i i think that that is a feature of the of the book certainly people i've spoken to

[00:43:35] have read it like i think that there's just this idea of like listening to the listening to women

[00:43:45] and girls yes certainly this is in its bones it understands what i call

[00:43:52] girl world i you know kept thinking back to heavenly creatures yes how that understood

[00:44:02] this like world that you can't necessarily translate but if i say if i say girl world and it's like

[00:44:08] why doesn't she just stop being friends with them they're so mean to her like oh you were never

[00:44:13] a teenage girl if you can ask that question yeah you were never a teenage girl yeah i mean this this

[00:44:20] i thought was a sort of a bit of quiet stunningness this use of of the uncle character he could have

[00:44:27] been mr exposition he could have been the one that the police come to and he can explain the family

[00:44:34] oh yes when we immigrated in and i think it's he as a character is as he wishes and needs to be

[00:44:42] and not a chess piece that a lesser writer can move around again employing a great actor to do it

[00:44:51] so i was so impressed from the from the big characters to the medium to the girls and girl

[00:44:58] world as you say with how nothing is is the formula of how to do this and everything is exactly

[00:45:08] as you say the story is the story wants to be told yeah and these young actors i mean

[00:45:16] just blown away truly like they're all doing exactly what they need to do like what

[00:45:24] thoughtful performances from such young people but also cast for that you know i spent a lot of

[00:45:34] time with um can see plus teen dramas of the 90s in other parts of working life yes you do and it's

[00:45:42] like uh you know it's your bird in 26 i can tell but the reason you can tell is that there are moments

[00:45:54] there are moments here cloy giddry as josephine bell and particularly javon wana walton

[00:46:00] as warren glotsky yes where there are certain shots where the six-year-old and the 26-year-old

[00:46:08] that they're going to be are coexisting in these like round faces that and you know it's not just

[00:46:18] their faces it's acting as well that their ability to communicate the you know the fullness

[00:46:29] of these people that they haven't even yet become and then there's one character who

[00:46:37] is just bad she's just bad seed and she's perfect also and when we find out it's like oh

[00:46:45] oh she was right there and i didn't see her yeah so good they didn't see her either i mean i know

[00:46:51] it's such a cliche to be like oh the you know shark eyes of the killer but like she

[00:46:57] does it i mean you know there's josephine who cloy giddry 92 of the time you want to slap her

[00:47:07] bloody but then that eight percent you're just like oh my gosh this poor this poor child child's

[00:47:15] yeah and her territorial scrabbling and gaudy aspirations yes and the idea and you just really

[00:47:22] see how young she is with this idea of this woman she's never met who lives in new york

[00:47:27] is going to take her to new york it's um and she embodies all of that she embodies all of

[00:47:34] that it's like if you think about it it is sort of like believing in santa i mean you know gangster

[00:47:41] santa but santa is like oh are you going to take me to the north pole and you're like

[00:47:47] this is both terrifying and so so pitiful and at the same time pitiful yes it's the right wood

[00:47:56] properties ability to see 360 degrees of its characters and just

[00:48:04] it like show us that and accept it is really something and it's what you want

[00:48:13] it's what you're always complaining about true crime for is so that um the narrative

[00:48:20] like the storytelling will be brought to heal culturally and just be like just let people

[00:48:25] and be who they are everybody's a fuck up who cares i mean it's great it's great

[00:48:31] it's not perfect but it's great so this is based on two books primarily under the bridge by

[00:48:38] rebecca godfrey from 2005 i too haven't read it but i will i know a bookshop where i might be able to

[00:48:45] get it and it all it is almost never aid and it goes right back out the door it happened last

[00:48:50] week again people don't sell it but i'll keep an eye out for you thank you uh and the other book

[00:48:57] is reena a father's story by manjit furt from 2008 so before we get to our magnifying glasses

[00:49:07] ring ring someone's at the door i'm going to give under the bridge 4.5 magnifying glasses

[00:49:14] i think it brilliantly unfolds how the crime was committed in a way that's both easy to

[00:49:19] understand but also with a little bit of mystery i think lily gladstone is amazing

[00:49:26] in her role as a officer cam and the only thing i would knock about it is uh the inclusion of

[00:49:34] author rebecca godfrey's character played by riley kehoe i understand that the show is based on her

[00:49:40] book and i get that but i feel the character doesn't bring as much to the show as it should

[00:49:47] but other than that i think the pacing is wonderful i think the in-depth character studies of all the

[00:49:56] people involved is really good and i think this property was very much worth the wait

[00:50:03] since we've known about it for over a year now i just would like to thank sarah and sdb for keeping

[00:50:12] the show going while i'm gone thank you to our listeners who keep sticking with us and i will

[00:50:18] hope to see everybody soon when i get back thanks marie as sarah what about you how many magnifying

[00:50:26] glasses are you going to give this series and do do write the entire eight episodes um the entire

[00:50:34] eight uh i'm allowed to do halves right yep yeah like four and then the stock of a fifth um yeah

[00:50:41] i'm gonna go four and a half because in the sort of back third it i would say blinks a little bit

[00:50:49] and starts not becoming more expository but it's like it needed to make sure that we understood

[00:50:58] what it was doing which it did not need to do um but with that said i mean if i had to if i had

[00:51:05] to pick i would say five but since i can do halves i'm gonna do four and a half and the acting is like

[00:51:12] a seven so definitely recommend but i'm gonna go with four and a half what about you look i'm

[00:51:18] going to do four and a half two for the first four i mark it down slightly because i yeah there's

[00:51:26] just the as i mentioned the character of cams brother and the introduction and the rivalry

[00:51:34] seemed a hat on a hat because she already has the adversarial loving adversarial loving relationship

[00:51:41] with her father that's switching backwards and forwards and i don't know that we need a dumb

[00:51:46] job brother policeman there as well it may be explicated further in the back four i don't know

[00:51:54] but i think from what i've said you the listener can tell i liked it very much so i'm giving it

[00:52:01] four and a half so sarah what do you have to recommend to our listeners today

[00:52:09] well to my surprise and i'm actually not sure where you're going to find this but there are

[00:52:17] a couple of social media accounts that are like what's about to play next on turner classic

[00:52:22] movies so if you're here in the states and you have that on your cable system follow

[00:52:26] those social media accounts this i think is probably your best chance to watch this film

[00:52:31] for free i believe i rented it on amazon prime it's called butterfield eight

[00:52:37] it's from the early 60s starring la liz lissabeth taylor she's starring as an adapted version i guess

[00:52:48] of a real woman named of all things star faithful which was a true story that like captivated the

[00:52:57] nation in the 30s she's kind of a more like late like eisenhower era idea of the quote good time girl

[00:53:10] and i'm slowly working my way through this book by herald shecter called rift from the headlines

[00:53:14] which is a compendium of books or of movies that you might not have realized were based on

[00:53:19] real cases butterfield eight is one of them i don't have a ton of patients usually with

[00:53:25] liz taylor as an actor i just think there's like too much of their shit going on and it's an acting

[00:53:31] style i don't love plus in this one eddie fischer is one of her co-stars and there's a whole

[00:53:37] like meta swirl of they forced the studio to cast him you can tell but she's actually really good

[00:53:47] and they're also meta layers of what society thought in two different previous eras about

[00:53:55] sex work about trauma about um i don't know like uh believing women basically the it's not great this

[00:54:07] movie but it's so much better than i expected and it really set me off on this like wool gathering

[00:54:13] path of like if only liz taylor had had a more like this is completely wild as a comp but like

[00:54:20] a more katlyn diva career where she had been doing more of this in this genre and like i wish

[00:54:28] we'd seen her in more like tv movies and mini series about real cases because i think she

[00:54:35] brought both way too much to it and something special so butterfield eight it's too long

[00:54:45] you're really going to know every possible thing about her boobs um but that's a value add for some

[00:54:53] people but if you can find a way to watch it for free it's not currently available for free on

[00:54:58] streaming but keep an eye on tcm you never know when they're gonna get the rights to it and i

[00:55:04] i recommended it really has something to say about like mid-century attitudes about post crime

[00:55:11] trauma and uh it's i mean it's it's worth a look and it's like just beautiful to look at god this

[00:55:20] mid-century design every single like the tabletop lighter with a wick amazing gorgeous what about

[00:55:30] you what are you watching what are you watching uh well i reached back into the past as well

[00:55:34] we're in the crime scene time machine today i went back to 1948 to rope directed by aphorahitch

[00:55:42] croc starring jimmy stewart one of my favorite films the more time and it happens to be inspired

[00:55:49] by the true story of thrill killers leopold and lobe themselves from 1924 they wanted to

[00:55:57] demonstrate their superior intellect by committing the perfect crime without consequences and rope

[00:56:04] updates the time period and has the two hosted dinner party in their apartment dining on a chest

[00:56:10] which holds the body of this school chum that they have just strangled it's black and white

[00:56:16] it's one set it's one single tracking shot it's not actually it's four you won't notice any of

[00:56:25] the cuts uh this is alfred hitchcock watching along to see if you can spot them as part of the fun

[00:56:31] it's it is no one like so many times and it holds up and it's so good in it

[00:56:38] it oh thank thank you sir for thank you

[00:56:45] i was looking at my favorite rip from the headlines adapted movies you know i mentioned

[00:56:52] all the president's men from the 70s along with something like dog day afternoon when i was

[00:56:58] starting to go to the movies when i was starting to see at least three or four a week when you had

[00:57:04] to go to revival houses to see older material this is before video everybody which was a revelation

[00:57:12] to us and all of them a french connection uh wonderful formative movies for me but and i

[00:57:22] thought i'm just going to recommend one and i thought i actually can't not recommend rope

[00:57:29] because it looks at crime what is crime why is crime why have they done the crime why don't we

[00:57:36] like crime and those thoughts that alfred hitchcock was entertaining and always wanted to be an

[00:57:42] entertainer but he also made you think and also it's beautiful like it's absolutely beautiful

[00:57:50] and you go oh that's why black and white works yeah it really it really does feel

[00:57:59] you can almost taste it like the you know filterless tobacco experience of black and white

[00:58:07] steward is fantastic as he always is i one of these days i'm gonna have to run my

[00:58:14] best evidence true crime resume percentage on him oh yeah a lot of true crime on his

[00:58:20] on his resume and he too is perfect casting but um i i also need to do a piece one day about

[00:58:28] whether leopold and lobe are the most adapted or inspired inspiring like not a great word you

[00:58:37] need something more pejorative um of all time in terms of major case because i just feel like

[00:58:44] multiple law and orders have done it multiple movies have done it there's a play speaks to

[00:58:50] so many anxieties about elites about sexuality um about uh sociopathy and whether we can

[00:59:01] detect it who will you know it's 10 p.m do you know where your children are in the 1920s so

[00:59:09] i really i think that that is the most homage case in fictional film and tv i wonder if you're

[00:59:17] right and you might be there's the idea because they just took this boy a young boy for no reason

[00:59:25] in a frank's may he rest and in the movie it's a school chum but it's still like they

[00:59:33] just picked him again for no reason and that's part of their mo is like well one of the reasons

[00:59:39] we're going to get away with it is because we're smarter than everybody but also because we want

[00:59:44] to murder someone but not that particular someone for any reason so i think the story

[00:59:51] also vibrates that for us that we can conceive of someone killing us or attacking us because they

[00:59:58] hate us or they're jealous or they want our wallet or something like that but not that it was just you

[01:00:06] for no reason and i think that's terrifying and i think that's what rope gets to it's available on

[01:00:12] prime in the u.s and for rent on apple tv plus in australia at crime scene where you could

[01:00:20] hear your feedback and suggestions for future episodes you can follow crime scene on twitter

[01:00:26] at crime scene rhjp and please remember to subscribe to our feed rob has a website dot com

[01:00:32] slash crime feed it makes a big difference sara what have you got going on and where can the people

[01:00:39] find you well as noted i do run an all true crime bookshop that includes magazines and ephemera i do

[01:00:48] have some new books but mostly secondhand and that's called exhibit b books you can find that on socials

[01:00:55] at exhibit b books and you crime scene listeners get your own discount code 15 off that's xcs15

[01:01:07] enter that a checkout get 15 off come on through i'd love to see you xcs15 for 15 off

[01:01:16] buy those true crime books and that send them as recommendations to us yeah it's book search is

[01:01:22] free and i'm happy to help so yep mash that chat button it's what i do fantastic you can follow

[01:01:31] me at sarah caradine on all the things i run silent podcasts niamie calhoun and i are covering

[01:01:37] season 17 of taskmaster uk and sam smith from the traders new zealand and i are covering

[01:01:44] the traders quabec despite neither of us speaking french the podcast is called what did they france

[01:01:52] we'd love it if you'd have a listen so sarah what are we watching next week

[01:01:58] well sarah next week we're watching control alt desire on paramount plus i uh i have some

[01:02:06] doubts based on that title but we're going to talk about it and we're going to talk about it

[01:02:10] with my co-host on the docket eve baby who has i believe been a crime scene guest before so we're

[01:02:16] getting that band back together she's a two-time a control alt desire and that's on paramount plus

[01:02:23] thank you well thank you sarah for the beginning of your

[01:02:28] rain in that warm chair she'll be here all month folks thanks to will from america for the

[01:02:32] theme music and the whole rhap team behind the scenes until next time okay bye