Crime Seen | Episode 102: The Jinx Part Two

[00:00:24] Hello everyone, I'm Sarah Karadine podcasting from Gadigal, Sydney.

[00:00:28] I'm Mari Forth

[00:00:30] and this is Crime Scene, the true crime review podcast where we get to the heart of how true crime stories are told.

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[00:01:03] Last week we watched What Jennifer Did with Rebecca Levoie. Sarah, what did we watch this week?

[00:01:11] This week we watched The Jinx Part 2 on Max. It was directed by Andrew Durekki.

[00:01:17] He's previously directed Capturing the Freedmen's which I think is fantastic.

[00:01:23] The scripted film based on Robert Durst's story, All Good Things, starring Ryan Gosling and Kirsten Dunst.

[00:01:29] I have a slightly different opinion of that thing.

[00:01:33] And of course The Jinx, The Life and Deaths of Robert Durst, a six-part series which came out in 2015.

[00:01:43] This part, part two is also six episodes. The first episode has dropped and that's what we'll be reviewing today.

[00:01:50] Oh, why am I feeling a chill all of a sudden? Yes, it's our very special guest, cold-case investigator,

[00:02:00] Sarah Kaelin. Hey, Sarah, welcome to the scene.

[00:02:03] Hello, fellow Sarah with an H and hello, Mari. I appreciate it. Thanks for having me.

[00:02:09] Yes, we're so glad to have you, Sarah. I don't know how we keep finding Sarah's to have on the show.

[00:02:14] Oh yeah, every story. Solid name. I have no arguments as long as it's spelled correctly.

[00:02:22] So, Sarah, you're new to the scene, certainly not new to true crime. What's your,

[00:02:29] we usually ask our guests what's your true crime origin story and what we're talking about there is

[00:02:34] how did you start watching it and why do you watch it and all of that?

[00:02:37] You come to true crime, let's say honestly, could you take us through your experience briefly?

[00:02:46] Yeah, absolutely. Although I would say, I mean my experience is that I am approaching my 26th year

[00:02:56] in law enforcement or investigate, like some capacity. I started initially very briefly in

[00:03:03] federal law enforcement then went municipal and was just a regular, you know, third shift cop,

[00:03:09] driving fast and yelling to people in the middle of the night and then went into sex crimes

[00:03:13] investigation and then eventually left that to go into academic research and now I work

[00:03:21] as a cold case homicide investigator on cases that have what we call serial features. So yes,

[00:03:28] that does mean that I'm often working on cases that may or may not but look like they may have

[00:03:34] been committed by a serial offender and that is the bulk of the work I do. Although I also

[00:03:43] through some weird machinations partly due to true crime have started doing a lot of

[00:03:49] innocence work as well. I say from jump that every single wrongful conviction is a cold case

[00:03:59] and so through the course of some true crimey stuff, I ended up working as an investigator

[00:04:07] on one of Rabiya Chaudhry's cases for undisclosed. She and I fell head over heels in friendship,

[00:04:13] love with each other almost immediately when I've been working on, you know,

[00:04:17] she and I have been working on cases together since but in all honesty, I came to investigations

[00:04:27] through true crime. I mean, yeah, through media presentations of crime essentially. So from the

[00:04:37] time I was six years old, I've been fascinated by and obsessed with crime discussion in the

[00:04:46] media. I was the same age as Adam Walsh when he disappeared and then was ultimately found.

[00:04:53] And like as a little kid, I mean, I remember that being the first thing that like really landed

[00:04:59] with me on the news. And I just kind of got more and more fascinated. And then I grew up in

[00:05:08] Gainesville, Florida where the University of Florida is. Yeah. And so I lived through

[00:05:13] the years when Bundy was our neighbor down the street and we were all just like constantly

[00:05:19] waiting for him to walk out the door again. And then almost as soon I was a freshman in high school

[00:05:26] when Bundy was executed. And I found out, we all found out on the day of that one of the

[00:05:35] electives teachers, one of us, the history teachers at our school was actually a minister

[00:05:40] who was absent that day because he had been with Bundy all night, the night leading up to his

[00:05:45] execution. And when he came back to school the next day, you know, it's a very like progressive

[00:05:52] school and the students basically revolt and they're like, we're not doing anything until

[00:05:55] you talk to us about this. And so he kind of opened the floor to questions. And I remember

[00:06:02] everybody asked some version of the same question, which was why would you do this?

[00:06:08] Why would you, you know, we've all been living in fear of this man, you know, the whole country

[00:06:12] lives in fear of this man and you go help him, you go help him. And I remember thinking like,

[00:06:18] if the guy's a minister, that's why, you know what I mean? Like this doesn't

[00:06:22] question to me. And I remember the question for me is, why is he like that? What makes him

[00:06:30] this way that he is so different and so like there's just this, this type of mindset that

[00:06:36] most people can't recognize. And that question, I just never really stopped asking that question.

[00:06:43] But it was only a year and a half later when Danny Rowling,

[00:06:49] the Danesville student murders. Yeah. And so, you know, through that summer and through like

[00:06:55] everything we were going through as a community, I was 15 that summer. And I think

[00:06:59] it's pretty easy to understand why I was like, you know, at some point I was in professional

[00:07:06] theater as a kid and I originally went to a conservatory for theater. And at some point

[00:07:12] I was just like, I can't do this anymore. I want to go chase serial killers. And

[00:07:16] yeah, so that's what I started doing. Or that was the Danesville Ripper. Wow.

[00:07:23] Wow. I know that had to be terrifying. Just terrifying. Thanks, Sarah. I am like

[00:07:30] blown away by your experience and expertise. And I'm so glad to have you here to talk about

[00:07:37] this property that I know is going to be, we're going to be here. We're going to be talking

[00:07:42] about it. Yeah. We sure are. I mean, there's a, there is, you know, potentially question

[00:07:49] Mark allegedly possibly a serial flavor to Robert Durst beyond the murders that people

[00:07:57] associate him with, shall we say. So let's get to the crime or crimes. Robert Durst came from a

[00:08:05] rich family involved in real estate. Sort of an understatement. I didn't know quite how else

[00:08:10] to put that. In 1982 his wife, Kathleen disappeared in 2000. His close friend, Susan Burman,

[00:08:18] was murdered. And in 2001 his neighbor, Morris Black, was killed and dismembered.

[00:08:26] In 2004, Durst was tried for Morris's death but was acquitted. The jury believed he had

[00:08:33] dismembered Black's body but not that he had killed him. Durst was sentenced to five years

[00:08:39] in prison for bail jumping and tampering with evidence. Durst was convicted of the

[00:08:47] murder of Susan Burman in 2021 and sentenced to life in prison without the possibility of parole.

[00:08:54] And during that trial, the disappearance of Kathy Durst was reclassified as a homicide

[00:09:00] and shortly after his conviction for Susan Burman's murder, he was charged with Kathy's murder.

[00:09:07] Durst died in January of 2022. So let's get to the property. First of all,

[00:09:14] the first six episodes of the Jinx aired on HBO in February 2015. Robert Durst was arrested for

[00:09:21] the murder of Susan Burman the day before the finale aired. Andrew Durekki had given John Lewin,

[00:09:28] LA Deputy District Attorney and Dateline Regular access to his interview tapes with Durst,

[00:09:34] including the Hot Mike recordings of Durst alone in the bathroom. In the documentary,

[00:09:39] Durst appears to say, what the hell did I do? Kill them all. Of course, this apparent confession

[00:09:46] was edited from a longer recording of Durst talking to himself. He does say those words,

[00:09:51] but not in that order. Sarah, I'll go to you first because you said that Andrew Durekki

[00:09:57] actually held back the evidence if we like to call it that for some time after he was in

[00:10:03] possession of it. That was my understanding because I remember at the time that it came out,

[00:10:09] I remember this sort of flurry of rage from people who said, if this is such important evidence

[00:10:18] that's going to implicate him and stuff, why would you hold it back at all? Obviously,

[00:10:24] the reason is he's a filmmaker and he wants it to be a bombshell. It seems that he probably

[00:10:31] waited until, I mean, if Durst was arrested after the airing of episode five, he obviously had given

[00:10:39] the evidence sometime before because you've got to either get the prosecutor on board or get a

[00:10:43] grand jury. Somebody's got to issue this arrest warrant and stuff in order to start charging him.

[00:10:48] So he clearly had given it to him before the episode dropped. But my understanding

[00:10:55] was that there was a fairly significant gap between when they got the recording and when

[00:11:03] they actually provided it to police as potential evidence. And that's, I work both sides of the

[00:11:12] role. I kind of understand it but I know for me at the end of the day, the investigation is always

[00:11:20] going to come first. I'm not a filmmaker. I'm an investigator who happens to do true crime,

[00:11:26] rather than a filmmaker who did some stuff on an investigation.

[00:11:35] Murray, do you remember when the jinx came out in 2015? Did you watch it? Were you on it from

[00:11:40] the drop? I actually wasn't. It's so funny because where I was at, I was freshly in New

[00:11:48] York. We were having so much fun just like being in that town at that time. And it's so funny because

[00:11:56] I remember all the billboards. I remember all of it but I was just too busy living my life

[00:12:03] like it was golden. And so I didn't watch the actual Six Pride of the Jinx until way, way later.

[00:12:09] I can't even remember. It's been years since I've seen the original. But I definitely felt

[00:12:17] like this part too. It revived what everything I remember about the original series. And even

[00:12:26] though we only have one episode to talk about, I really think that it's a great first stepping

[00:12:33] stone. I'm very interested in how they are going to spread this over another six episodes.

[00:12:40] Because I didn't keep, again, I kind of like, I was like no spoilers because I didn't keep up with

[00:12:47] Robert Durst. I didn't look into all of that after I knew he got arrested because of what

[00:12:54] he said on the jinx. So I'm very interested to see how they break up this next six because

[00:12:59] it's like okay are y'all dragging it or what? Are you just trying to make content? But I

[00:13:05] think this episode definitely felt like the original. It felt like everything we got from the first

[00:13:16] part and it felt updated for like modern true crime tastes, I guess if that's the right word. So

[00:13:25] I'm very, very excited to watch the rest of this season. I guess that's a spoiler for the

[00:13:34] ratings. But yeah, it just reminds you why the jinx is like we referenced it so much in all of our,

[00:13:45] in a whole bunch of our other shows because it was one of those documentaries that was really

[00:13:52] groundbreaking in a way of like now everybody kind of wants that gotcha moment and you know

[00:14:00] in crime documentaries everybody wants that gotcha moment and you know that's not always good.

[00:14:08] People try for it and they fail but that's the cultural impact of the jinx. Like everybody wants

[00:14:14] to now open that case. They want to be the documentarian that maybe shed something on the case

[00:14:20] that went un-missing and now like the suspect might be apprehended. Like it really feels

[00:14:27] like it added that type of feeling to the true crime genre and then on top of that the original

[00:14:34] series itself had everything that you would want in true crime and it starts off with the cold case

[00:14:44] then you get your trial portion for the people like me who love to hear the whole trials,

[00:14:49] all the case being presented. Then you get another like cold case or active investigation

[00:14:56] should we say and then the gotcha moment. Like it really was a time capsule and time of the

[00:15:04] true crime genre and it really did take it to take the genre to a whole different spot. So

[00:15:12] that's why this is going to be a crazy discussion like I'm so excited.

[00:15:18] So Sarah, John Lewin says right at the beginning of this episode if there's a door for

[00:15:25] not talking and a door for talking, Bob always goes in the talk door. You rewatched the jinx just

[00:15:32] moments ago, the first six episodes. What were your impressions now and how do you think your

[00:15:39] response differed from when you first watched it if it indeed did differ?

[00:15:46] Yeah it definitely did and so what I did when we scheduled this I went back and re-watched

[00:15:52] the original one just over a period of a couple of weeks and then I watched the new one when it

[00:15:56] dropped and then I watched the new one again right before we came on so everything would be fresh.

[00:16:02] And I have to say first of all, Mari is like hit the nail on the head about like it is this

[00:16:08] moment in time and true crime and it's an era of true crime that I kind of referred to. It's

[00:16:15] like the beginning of what I refer to now this period we're in is like this renaissance of

[00:16:19] true crime because I feel like people always ask the question and I'm asked a lot like oh why is

[00:16:26] true crime suddenly so popular? It's not. I do a lot of research, I do these live presentations

[00:16:32] around the country sort of like true crime talks and in those I focus on a lot of historical cases

[00:16:37] like Victorian and stuff like that and one of my favorite things is to demonstrate either through

[00:16:43] like newspaper clippings or even photographs as we got into the turn of the 20th century

[00:16:49] just how much crime has always been something it's part of the human condition that we are obsessed

[00:16:56] with it. It also for the record has always been almost all women. I go back and look at these

[00:17:02] crime scene photos from like the 40s and 50s and it's just a sea of women like staring over like

[00:17:09] you know the crime scene when people used to be able to get up close to them and stuff

[00:17:12] like that it has always been a predominantly female consumed genre but for a long time I think because

[00:17:21] it was centered around violence the perception by creators was well it must be male driven

[00:17:31] and so they were making stuff that I think was you know I mean we all love old forensic files

[00:17:38] we all love old forensic files I go to sleep still listening to it in the background you know what I mean

[00:17:44] but like that era of true crime and even like the books at that time were there was definitely a

[00:17:51] sort of a schlock element and it was a little bit more about the you know the like misanthropic bad

[00:17:58] guy and the heroic cop and it was like this this sort of formula that I think it didn't allow

[00:18:05] for it to really become true documentary and really good documentary until around 2015 2016

[00:18:14] when a couple of things happened and the content creators very accidentally discovered that it

[00:18:21] was all women consuming it and so they started to bring in more female creators and started to

[00:18:28] kind of focus this content on not all I mean there's still some schlock out there there's no

[00:18:34] doubt about that but we see so much more of this like advocacy based true crime or like like you said

[00:18:40] kind of getting to the bottom of it and stuff and so and like the jinx is right in there I

[00:18:46] think when you said 2015 I was like it did not come out in 2015 but of course it did

[00:18:51] and that's like right around the same time like we get into making a murder around the same time

[00:18:58] the staircase had been out but it kind of had a revival it got like a bunch of attention

[00:19:02] right then my favorite murder launched Michelle me cereal yeah and cereal all that all came out

[00:19:12] right in that went well so cereal was the was the patient zero where I heard ira glass talk about

[00:19:18] this that you know they were really pissed because they were getting these massive numbers

[00:19:24] and they were like why did we not charge more for advertising because they just have

[00:19:28] went into demos and that's when everybody started seeing that it was like all these

[00:19:34] women who had money to spend they should have advertised to them and that was

[00:19:38] kind of how we we found this stuff out all of that to say I think that true crime now is

[00:19:46] more responsible than maybe the jinx or even cereal was but that stuff really did kind of

[00:19:52] birth what we have now and so yeah the aesthetic of it feeling like that and some of it when I go

[00:19:59] back and rewatch it I when you asked this this is all to answer your question believe it or not

[00:20:06] like did your view on it change it did in the same way that my view on cereal has changed

[00:20:12] dramatically but I think I think that is largely due to the fact that we've we've come to expect

[00:20:20] even more like a little more responsibility more journalism and less storytelling people like we

[00:20:25] want the storytelling too but it needs to be more responsible in the like in the elevated stuff

[00:20:31] and so I think that might be why I view it a little differently I think that there's some

[00:20:35] some stuff in it that if it was made now it might have been they might have tackled some

[00:20:39] stuff a little differently but um I mean it holds up it really is one of the kind of you know

[00:20:45] the originals in that in that era yeah I rewatched it as well and I am used myself by wondering if

[00:20:53] they use the same reenactment actor to be Bobby Durst, Mary and I are on record as disliking

[00:21:01] reenactments there's a very interesting article which I'll link to in the show notes on the

[00:21:05] ethics of reenactments which we haven't even gone into the whole area of retraumatization

[00:21:11] of victims and so on I was surprised isn't quite the right word I didn't remember how extensive

[00:21:18] the reenactments were and we see that was definitely a thing back then I rewatched

[00:21:25] uh an innocent man again recently and there's and it is another one that is like very good

[00:21:31] and very well done but it has that same flavor where it's a lot of the not direct reenactments

[00:21:37] that we used to see in like the 90s on old you know just discovery you know um but it is that

[00:21:44] sort of like that shadowy reenactment that one is all that that whole era they were doing a lot

[00:21:50] of that yeah I I found in the new episode that the reenactments were more judicious

[00:21:58] and they go with the style Mary you like yeah I agree yeah it was it wasn't too heavy handed

[00:22:06] um it felt it felt appropriate you know it wasn't too schlocky as Sarah would say

[00:22:15] um I didn't mind the reenactments I thought I thought they did a really good job of again

[00:22:21] it felt like it slipped right into the the jinx universe but while also feeling modern and and

[00:22:27] updated yeah so in rewatching the image of the reenactor Kathy stepping onto the train

[00:22:35] which happens over and over again that's the one that lives in my brain yeah lives in our brain

[00:22:41] there's a couple of reasons one of which is was that the last of her and then of course now it is

[00:22:46] strongly suspected that she never got on the train and it recalled to me my true grandmother

[00:22:52] story property which is the thin blue line last century uh Errol Morris and the repeated

[00:23:00] reenactments that he used in that so Mary yes you talk about a freshness and anoneness to this

[00:23:07] while it remains in the jinx universe I completely agree with you what to you Mark said as so

[00:23:12] contemporary this time or this one episode that we've seen yeah I think what it is is it still

[00:23:19] has the these it still has the style of the jinx in a sense of we're getting our talking heads

[00:23:28] we're getting uh like it's so weird that the show is like citing itself you know like that's

[00:23:36] that's really interesting to me but I think um what kind of updates it too is we were talking

[00:23:42] about it uh last week with what what jennifer did the use of all of like modern like the

[00:23:48] camera footage like while this first episode Robert Durris is trying to flee and we just see

[00:23:55] all of the camera footage that they have of him like getting ready to like flee and leave the country

[00:24:00] and it's so it's just so funny and it's so good because that's that's kind of what we get a lot

[00:24:06] in modern um true crime documentaries and docu series today it's like they try and get as much

[00:24:12] of that found footage as they possibly can even if it's like to the detriment of the property

[00:24:18] as a whole you know um but that that I feel like is an updated modern feel um like we said I really

[00:24:26] I did like their the reenactments surprisingly I thought they were very well lit they they blended

[00:24:34] seamlessly from either the talking heads or the real footage that we had to just

[00:24:41] just normal reenactments nobody doing anything crazy not too shadowy like just normal

[00:24:47] reenactments so I definitely feel like it's an upgrade and and like and like Sarah said maybe

[00:24:54] we'll see how these other episodes go but I'm hoping we see a some more um careful depiction

[00:25:04] Sarah we we remeet Charles Bagley from the New York Times he's uh all over this episode

[00:25:11] and he certainly appeared in the original uh six parts how did you find him as what seemed almost

[00:25:20] to be a major narrator now in this first episode I don't know that I don't know if I have an opinion

[00:25:27] on it one way or the other yet he definitely seems very excited to be participating

[00:25:33] so he's in like a real good mood um the whole time he's talking I did

[00:25:38] uh there is an element of this that feels very like dude bros patting each other on the back a lot

[00:25:50] and so the interactions between Bagley and Jarekki where they're like actually cutting to him and I

[00:25:56] remember that being something that like it did stick in my craw a little bit from the first

[00:26:01] season even like originally watching the first season I was like if you're the documentarian

[00:26:06] why are you on camera so much this is not supposed to be about you because I like I grew up in the like

[00:26:11] Ken's Ken Burns documentary world where you know as on only murders he said you know it's

[00:26:17] like a Ken Burns documentary on the history of boredom like that that I live for that I love

[00:26:22] a Ken Burns documentary on the history of boredom um and so I found it a little jarring how

[00:26:28] much the filmmakers appear the first season and this time there's I feel like we're probably

[00:26:34] gonna get even more of that it's a there is a little self-congratulatory um flavor there's a

[00:26:41] sous-saint of of look how good I am um and that between the two of them like the fact that they

[00:26:48] actually cut to Jarekki smiling and nodding as you know Bagley is saying like oh and then

[00:26:55] on your show and I was just like okay but yeah no I mean other than that I don't really

[00:27:02] I'm always excited to see a good or an investigative journalist like an actual journalist

[00:27:09] involved in true crime documentary because I think that that elevates it yeah we love to

[00:27:14] see the journalists I I mean I asked because I thought well there's a lot of him but I'm

[00:27:20] not sure what I'm getting other than the reporting that Bob was watching the jinks

[00:27:25] in real time and calling him after each episode I mean that is interesting but I'm not sure why

[00:27:32] he's the narrator of that Mara did you because he couldn't say it himself that would be

[00:27:40] he needs somebody else to say it right yeah I mean that's yeah and they didn't have recordings

[00:27:48] of their talks right no they didn't so they just had a reenact they just had reenactments

[00:27:54] of the talks between the two of them so you must have had recordings because he's got

[00:27:59] full transcript talked out it's okay okay that must be it okay so I mean it was very interesting to

[00:28:07] hear uh hear Bob's takes on watching his own documentary and I love that we got the the

[00:28:17] triggering of the flight of his his him trying to get away that's what I'm saying this whole

[00:28:22] first episode was just like the continuation of the last part where you know he tries to flee

[00:28:29] and they arrest him so I'm really like okay so what are the next few parts gonna be where's the new

[00:28:35] material right yeah I assume it's a trial right it's gotta be the trial it's gotta be the trial

[00:28:43] Mara what did you think about his assistant whatever that means Donna you know going to his

[00:28:49] husband his friend Chris Lovell who was on the jury and Galveston who was on the jury

[00:28:57] so so I'm that I was aghast on that one I didn't have time to go back and watch the whole series

[00:29:07] but I definitely went back and watched episode four and watched the trial the Galveston trial

[00:29:14] and there Chris Lovell was front and center talking about his best friend that was his best friend at

[00:29:21] there's no way right like she couldn't have been his assistant during the trial she would have had to

[00:29:28] be the assistant after right we've earned their way into his life exactly that feels

[00:29:36] gross right yes yes and but I man when I tell you I love a good I love a good security cam footage

[00:29:47] and then the who was narrating this security cam footage here it was a woman wasn't it

[00:29:52] the front desk woman I think yes yeah I was like man this lady has some great memory

[00:29:58] yes she was like yeah Donna came and and her husband came and they had empty backs and they

[00:30:04] went upstairs and they came back to have I was like she is on it I like this part a lot and it

[00:30:12] did blow me away and again referencing itself having clips of Chris from the original jinx

[00:30:18] I think I might want them to be a little bit more like maybe make the type bigger about

[00:30:25] when you're referencing what happened in the past versus what's happening in the quote

[00:30:30] present because even this present is not present you know what I'm saying so a little bit of more of a

[00:30:39] delineation between jinx part one like 2015 ish to like now which is what still like 2016

[00:30:52] what is it like it's still 2015 and their their present timeline yeah so it's like

[00:30:58] I need a little bit of delineation a little bit more of that but other than that like

[00:31:03] really fun part here it to say the least because you've got to put that wig back on so

[00:31:11] yeah the mask that was like who who is going to cross a border with that mask on that I don't

[00:31:16] understand like Bob Durst was going to Bob Durst who never thought he'd be arrested he never

[00:31:22] thought there'd be a judgment day because he's the son of a rich real estate guy they never

[00:31:27] pay the price he's an underdog series

[00:31:34] wolf my head almost

[00:31:39] I was like you cannot be serious yes we see some sort of almost home movies they're not I mean

[00:31:46] they're made by the director and jiriki of the families of the victims and others involved in

[00:31:52] the case and gathering at jiriki's place for screening of episode six we see janine piero

[00:32:01] where is the body that's my

[00:32:06] what did you do to that baby I can't do it I can't do it

[00:32:09] it's strongly strong on snl that is in fact who I am all I can think of is her

[00:32:15] line all over collin just every every

[00:32:20] when I tried to do my janine impersonation it is in fact an impersonation of sesley's

[00:32:26] this was breathtaking I don't know if that's the right word Mari what this group of people

[00:32:34] so involved uh Kathy's brother and sister-in-law they're laughing at points and then of course

[00:32:42] the shock which is what we all felt when we watched it if we didn't know it was coming

[00:32:49] like in all intensive purposes and sorry if this is a focus this was like the a money shot

[00:32:54] you know i'm saying like you are literally there filming people who have close ties to this case

[00:33:02] as they're first seeing the quote-unquote ultimate bomb drop of that audio of uh robert durst

[00:33:10] essentially quote-unquote confessing on tape like that was I mean that I'm surprised they

[00:33:17] live with that in the first episode almost that is amazing footage to have it's it's a

[00:33:22] missing footage but I have to say that to me was the most offensive part of of all of that because

[00:33:32] you and I you know I'm in the unique position of working very closely with family and loved

[00:33:39] ones of these cold cases these cases where people have been begging somebody to you know to look at

[00:33:45] it for all this time and stuff and the degree of faith that they place in you is overwhelming

[00:33:52] and terrifying and like it's a ton of responsibility and I cannot imagine withholding that information

[00:34:00] in order to film their response like withholding it for that long I can understand because I do you

[00:34:06] know I am kind of also in this documentary world now and there's like um as John Oliver says there's

[00:34:12] like business daddy and so like you have to um you know I can understand like if I was like

[00:34:19] recording a zoom or a phone call or something like that when I was updating a family member on

[00:34:24] something that I had you know if there was a significant development it would never occur to me

[00:34:29] to wait months to give them that information and then to film it it felt like it felt I it felt

[00:34:39] really gross for me I did not like that at all yeah it wasn't naturally set up so you're right

[00:34:44] it's not a coincidence that they got this money for no they set it up yeah and it feels

[00:34:52] predatory I just yeah I wasn't I was not wild about that as a I mean we can have some telling us

[00:35:00] right we can have her brother saying when Andrew told me about it or when I first heard the

[00:35:07] taste yeah film or record them at the time you tell it and make sure that they're comfortable

[00:35:12] with that reaction yeah being sure I just you know I get that in pure documentary you're

[00:35:18] not supposed to interfere with them but I feel like in that case you're interfering with

[00:35:22] with the like naturally occurring thing you're manufacturing a degree of shock so that you can

[00:35:29] catch it and and I don't know if you want to have your reaction in a room full of like leaving

[00:35:33] aside the filming why do I want to have that reaction in a room full of 35 people

[00:35:39] rather than privately with my wife and my daughter who looks exactly like my sister

[00:35:45] yeah and at this point our hope is that you know with part two coming out so far after part one

[00:35:52] and so far after this being actually recorded that he still has the blessing of the family to put

[00:35:58] this on here yes yeah I hope so so leaving aside filming these people in that moment

[00:36:06] you have thoughts about that recording uh the so-called confession yeah it just to me

[00:36:12] didn't like if I was investigating that case and I heard that I would certainly be intrigued by that

[00:36:19] but it would not be the it didn't feel to me like enough of a confession

[00:36:29] to actually move on it like if I was the investigator that he handed that over to

[00:36:34] I'm not sure I would be like oh this is the thing I can move on after all this time

[00:36:38] I think the Beverly letter that is something I would bring to a grand jury absolutely and then

[00:36:44] maybe his interviews talking about that where he's like denying that it's him but it's very clear that

[00:36:49] he doesn't know which one if it's you know if it's not his that to me was much more compelling

[00:36:55] as evidence than I would bring to a grand jury or bring to a prosecutor then this kind of like

[00:37:01] oh I killed them all of course because that could so easily like how does a defense attorney

[00:37:05] not just say who's being sarcastic he's a very he's an odd bird you know he's a he's a little bit quirky

[00:37:14] he's a little bit of an asshole like there's no reason to to necessarily assume that that was not

[00:37:19] sarcastic I'm not saying that's true I think he probably did kill them all but I'm just saying

[00:37:24] like to me it's less of a bomb in a way than the moment when he says you know well can you tell

[00:37:31] which of these you supposedly wrote and he very like he goes no like he knows in that moment

[00:37:39] that he's caught and so that to me is is is more compelling I understand you can't learn the credits

[00:37:46] after that the same way you can after I had forgotten that that was like literally what it was where

[00:37:51] he says I killed them all of course and then it goes black like I was like oh I forgot that they

[00:37:54] did that that was a choice um but yeah I just I just don't trust that it's a a valuable confession

[00:38:03] yeah but it is the sensational one it's what it's what was on all the the newspapers

[00:38:10] and all the quotes and every time somebody got the quote wrong it really annoyed me

[00:38:15] and guys always get referred to as like they captured a confession and I'm like

[00:38:19] did they that doesn't it just doesn't feel like a confession to me we have extensive recordings

[00:38:28] of bob after he's been captured uh john louen is talking to him we get some interspersed

[00:38:38] narration from john louis now about what was happening then I thought this was very well done

[00:38:43] we have audio of bob all the way through we have some very fuzzy real footage and we have some

[00:38:48] very nicely matched reenactment footage sarah bob says he was on meth the entire weekend

[00:38:55] what did you make of that I mean when he said that I was like oh yeah I can see it I mean

[00:39:04] they're like the twitching and stuff the what was interesting that I found because everybody

[00:39:08] talks about all the burping and that to me is that is the body responding to the fact

[00:39:13] that he's in a corner that like the burping was even more telling to me than the supposed confession

[00:39:21] I've not heard of that as a side effect of meth but like all the blinking all the looking around

[00:39:26] the like the scratching and stuff um and just the sort of frenetic behavior like

[00:39:32] sure I could see it I don't know that it he didn't seem like out of his gourd or anything

[00:39:37] though I mean I've certainly seen footage of and heard other officers talk about like people they

[00:39:44] had apprehended you know like actively on meth and stuff I never I didn't have a lot of meth I had a

[00:39:49] little bit not me in terms of in terms of arrest I had a lot more you know cocaine and stuff like

[00:39:59] that I didn't I did not encounter a ton of meth when I was patrolling yeah the classic

[00:40:04] cocaine yeah yeah I had I had you know plenty of coke lots of of rock cocaine um but not not a

[00:40:11] ton of meth so I haven't seen it up close and personal a lot um the there's a case I'm working on right now

[00:40:17] which is in a part of the country that like opioids and fentanyl have kind of passed them by they're

[00:40:23] like still they're all still doing meth um and that's interesting when you do see it out in

[00:40:29] the world because you see it it's just out in the world and um I don't know I don't know that it

[00:40:38] looked like he was necessarily on it but I certainly couldn't say no way we're not

[00:40:44] interested what did you have other thoughts about that interrogation well interrogation

[00:40:48] that seemed like a very friendly conversation well so other interrogations where people

[00:40:53] have been back into corners and they are very polite to Bob Durst yeah I I'm okay with that that's

[00:41:01] the way it should be like we a lot a lot of us prefer the word interview um and it's either you

[00:41:07] know in a custodial interview or a non-custodial interview but interrogation to me is this read

[00:41:14] technique bullshit which is how we get so many wrongful convictions you know and so if you

[00:41:21] can't get a person to speak with you without bullying them you probably should not be conducting

[00:41:28] suspect interviews in my opinion so I think that the interview was done right I mean you can still

[00:41:35] nail somebody to the wall and do it in a calm tone of voice rather than you know pounding on

[00:41:41] tables and stuff which is still sometimes happening but not nearly as much as um as

[00:41:47] cinema would have us believe I think what he was doing that was a perfectly reasonable

[00:41:52] modern suspect interview and Mary Bob seems to be looking for some relief his

[00:42:01] talking around and around which from the first six episodes we're very used to Bob

[00:42:06] never quite saying never quite answering but he talks around and around seems to be almost

[00:42:11] saying if I tell about Kathy and Susan what do I get uh and Lou and contemporary now with us

[00:42:21] saying I mean you can imagine how excited he would have got at the idea of being told particularly

[00:42:27] about Kathy he realized that he would never get a confession what did you think of Bob here

[00:42:33] what do you think he was why does he talk so much it was so it was so funny it was so funny

[00:42:40] I was like this what like it's like he no it's like he kind of knows what line he can like really

[00:42:48] really toe like he he is just toe in that line and he's like no but what if I knew some information

[00:42:57] what would you think I would want and Lou was like well you know you go back to California or maybe

[00:43:07] serve somewhere else and Rob and Bob was like yes yes something like that I was like what is this

[00:43:13] double talk it was it was really interesting I I definitely thought it was it was interesting

[00:43:18] is the cat and mouse of it all Bob Durst being Bob Durst again entertaining to say the least

[00:43:28] I actually it's interesting I I love hearing like that perspective on it and I think that

[00:43:34] that is definitely true the cat and mouse thing because I I have experienced that a great deal on

[00:43:39] the other side of an interview table and it's always a little obnoxious when it's happening

[00:43:43] but um I can imagine also crops because like you shouldn't be talking to me without an attorney

[00:43:51] like for the record everybody listening innocent or not do not talk to the police without an

[00:43:57] attorney ever um but what I what I think is actually happening I think you're right he

[00:44:04] does know what line he can go up to I think that he knows they've probably got him dead to rights on

[00:44:12] Susan so he knows he is going to serve time and so what he does is he begins to plant this

[00:44:18] seed that he's willing to negotiate but he's not going to actually do it when he says like I

[00:44:24] would ever talk to you without my lawyer and I think the at least the way the investigator kind of

[00:44:29] like framed it in the question was like oh we're never going to get a confession out of him now

[00:44:33] I disagree with that I think what he was doing was planting the seed so that he can now go back

[00:44:38] to his attorney and say they're willing to work with me because I think everybody in on his team

[00:44:43] knows he's probably going to prison for for Susan I mean maybe they can get him off but

[00:44:49] I think that was his thinking was I will now go to my attorney and bring my attorney in before I

[00:44:55] give a confession and let the attorney lead that so I can get the best deal yeah that makes sense to

[00:45:01] me too he's not stupid but he's not stupid no he's not he's got a he's got away he did get away

[00:45:09] with one murder so I'm I don't know whether he thinks he'll never serve time for Susan I don't

[00:45:16] know whether the opening gambit was if I tell you about this can I go home he wouldn't I wouldn't

[00:45:22] put it past him I mean this is a man that stole a five dollar sandwich when he had $35,000 in his

[00:45:29] I mean at one point he says I'm 72 yeah you know I'm saying like he's kind of like

[00:45:36] yeah I've had a great life because he has he's been on the outside this whole entire time

[00:45:42] I'm the outside the whole time yeah so so Murray what do you think the next five episodes might hold

[00:45:49] I like you're very curious about what what it's going to be filled with so we end with like

[00:45:54] Bob's in jail in New Orleans right and he's getting all these like he's doing all these phone calls

[00:46:00] can you imagine just sitting in your house and like a suspected serial murder that you haven't

[00:46:05] talked to him a decade and a half because I imagine the next episode probably negotiations

[00:46:16] into where he gets tried we since well since you spoiled it for me in the beginning

[00:46:21] oh

[00:46:33] we need it but so we do know he goes on trial for

[00:46:40] I'm like Mari it was just like okay I did that I'm not following it

[00:46:44] exactly yeah so so I think I think if we're going we're doing true jinx fashion then we got to follow

[00:46:52] that trial I have no idea how that trial went I mean I don't you like I don't know the ins and outs of

[00:46:58] it so it'll be it'll be very cool to see it again presented in the documentary form but I

[00:47:05] that's as much as I can think um maybe follow the investigators when they officially turn

[00:47:12] Kathy's case into a homicide again maybe maybe revisit that a little bit yeah so I'm wondering

[00:47:18] about that whether we're going to go into the Kathy side of it because there was a grand jury

[00:47:23] during his Susan the Susan Berman trial during the trial for the killing the brutal killing of

[00:47:29] his dear friend Susan a grand jury who said yes you can charge for the for the for the presumed

[00:47:38] murderer of Kathy it's going to be a no body case I actually don't know no spoilers because I

[00:47:45] actually don't know how far they got with that it do you think that any of the other young women who

[00:47:53] have been allegedly in his orbit allegedly killed allegedly by him do you think that's too long

[00:48:02] above for Andrew to hold there um I I guess I didn't realize that there were others you know the thing

[00:48:13] for me about about this one is at least based on the stuff we know from the jinx I I do not

[00:48:21] classify Durst as a serial killer because a serial killer requires like no connection between

[00:48:28] the cases and in this one it seems to be that it was Kathy and then Susan and probably Morris Black

[00:48:34] if he figured out who he was or something like that were committed in the you know the attempt to

[00:48:39] kind of cover up what anybody knew about Kathy or something and so to me those are like related so

[00:48:44] they don't classify as as serial if he's got if he's got I didn't realize maybe I missed it

[00:48:51] somewhere that there are like other women who potentially went missing in his orbit um then

[00:48:57] yeah that's a whole different that's a whole different thing and I was excited to see at

[00:49:01] least that the cold case investigator they brought on that he specializes in nobody cases they're

[00:49:06] hard they're really hard and they're they're like even harder to prosecute than they are to solve

[00:49:12] and so I'm excited to see what you know what that guy's able to to work up on on Kathy's

[00:49:20] yeah I doubt that it will I doubt very much that it will come in it's it's kind of scuffle

[00:49:26] butt and it's easy to pile on more bodies as it were Sarah I think that's a very good point that the

[00:49:34] if the initial and first murder was Kathy then he killed Susan Berman because she was saying

[00:49:40] give me but basically give me money or I'll tell that you told me that you killed Kathy

[00:49:45] and then Morris Black figured out who he was because he was on the run so really it's all

[00:49:51] involved in the same case yeah it's not as yeah as here yeah so based on this first episode

[00:50:02] how many magnifying glasses are you going to rate the jinx but to episode one out of a possible five

[00:50:08] Sarah oh god you're putting it to me first always three the archival that they have and it's the

[00:50:21] archival that is the big thing right now that's what like working in it trust me that's all anybody

[00:50:25] wants now is you know it's the archival the stuff from the police interviews and the you know

[00:50:30] courtroom and stuff I do think it's it's being well made it's you know the first one was very well

[00:50:35] made too Mari how about you how many magnifying glasses will you give this episode I think for

[00:50:43] the episode itself just focusing on the jinx part two episode one not getting caught up in

[00:50:49] the nostalgia of the jinx part one I will definitely say four I think that this is a strong reintroduction

[00:50:58] to the world of the jinx and the case and I think I'm going to give it a four right now because

[00:51:06] looking at a five episode another five episodes I don't know Sarah you know we've had properties

[00:51:15] that have started off really really well and then they try and stretch to just three episodes and it's

[00:51:21] like this doesn't deserve three so I'm not I'm very apprehensive about how they're gonna stretch this to

[00:51:30] an additional five so I'll give it four because I think it's start off strong I think

[00:51:35] this is definitely going to pull people in I think Discovery and Max knew exactly what they're

[00:51:42] doing dropping this and they're dropping this in their prime crime spot of Sundays at 9 p.m. they

[00:51:54] they love doing this now I actually like that I know when to look at Max for like much

[00:52:01] regram fix so they know what they're doing and I think they're trying to catch lightning in a

[00:52:05] bottle again but it's gonna be hard to follow up how about you Sarah how many magnifying glasses

[00:52:13] are you gonna rate the jinx part two yes so part two episode one it's so noted only episode one

[00:52:20] I'm also going to give it a four I think it's well made I'm so interested in the case

[00:52:25] Mary you and I don't like properties where the perpetrator gets a lot of attention and gets to

[00:52:31] talk to the camera this would be an exception I was when I was rewatching part one I thought oh

[00:52:36] yeah that's right Mary and I don't like this but there's something so fundamental about like you

[00:52:42] cannot understand the case if you don't understand or at least regard or sit in the presence of

[00:52:50] Bobby Durst for at least some amount of time yeah it's a rope one you know yeah giving them

[00:52:56] just enough rope just enough rope yes so I'm gonna give it a four for the first episode

[00:53:03] Mary you and I will give a mini review in six five weeks time when the rest of it has dropped

[00:53:10] and we've watched the rest of it and Sarah we might solicit your final opinion after I was hoping you would

[00:53:17] so Sarah why don't you tell us about some of the work you've been doing particularly

[00:53:25] why can't we talk about Amanda's mom well thank you for asking so why can't we talk about Amanda's mom

[00:53:35] is an eight-part investigative podcast series that I that it was released last year February

[00:53:44] of 2023 over you know eight weeks and it covers it covers about three years of time following my

[00:53:54] investigation into a cold case homicide in Mobile Alabama that took place in 1993 and it was the

[00:54:03] victim was a woman named Renee Bergeron and her daughter Amanda obviously I spent a lot of time

[00:54:09] with her she's how I kind of came to know the victim a lot better it is a case where the original

[00:54:16] case I believe went cold for the same reason that many if not most of them do which was that

[00:54:22] she was a member of a marginalized community she was a sometimes sex worker and she was

[00:54:29] regarded by investigators at the time as you know quote unquote a crack whore and so kind of

[00:54:36] you know and they did a lot of work but they did a lot of in my opinion very very very bad work

[00:54:42] based around their assumptions based on this like bullet point thing that they had about her

[00:54:49] and so it follows the sort of roller coaster of the investigation it is it is a crazy who

[00:54:54] done it crime with with some very interesting you know suspects and stuff but the larger

[00:55:01] issue is you know what we're doing when we don't actually get to know the victims as investigators

[00:55:08] but it's also an issue in the media if we don't really get to know the victim we're going to start

[00:55:13] in directions based on on assumptions and those directions are never ever going to

[00:55:17] lead us anywhere but to a dead end and like I said this is why I feel like I have so many cold

[00:55:22] cases so yeah why can't we talk about Amanda's mom follows that but it is like I said it's

[00:55:28] it's a pretty interesting case and I think people even if you're not in it for the like you know

[00:55:36] me bitching about you know about unfair investigations to just be in it for

[00:55:43] for the the mystery of it and I've been embedded with the Mobile County Sheriff's

[00:55:48] Department the the most major crimes unit for five years now I actually work with them regularly

[00:55:55] on a number of their cold cases they're an incredible agency who I think is is doing things

[00:56:00] right now they were not you know 30 years ago when this case happened but they are now they're

[00:56:05] very invested in the community they have a good relationship with the community and so I think

[00:56:09] it highlights some real problems in policing but it highlights like some ways that we can do it

[00:56:15] better as well on top of just being this like crazy case of what happened to this incredible

[00:56:21] woman who was who was literally and figuratively discarded and I'm working on we're working on

[00:56:28] I'm not sure how much I'm allowed to say we're working on a new case that may or may not be in

[00:56:36] development as a podcast as well. Oh it's true, it's true. It's very interesting that idea of

[00:56:43] investigators getting an idea ahead of the investigation and going with it I mean just

[00:56:49] to go back to the Jinx part one briefly the non-investigation of Kathy Durst's disappearance

[00:56:57] partly it speaks to the privilege of the Durst family money white man privilege but also we have

[00:57:04] an investigator interviewed and saying well you know I mean maybe she shacked up with someone else

[00:57:09] it happens all the time I was so shocked because I thought yeah it doesn't happen all the time.

[00:57:14] It doesn't ever happen. She just lives from the whole family yeah no that does not happen.

[00:57:20] It does not happen it's the same here when Aboriginal children go missing and the police

[00:57:25] they're better now but the police say oh they've gone walk about no no they haven't

[00:57:30] they're urban children who are missing they did not run away so I think that's fascinating and

[00:57:37] I can't wait to listen because that whole idea of starting from assumption as you say will always

[00:57:43] lead to a dead end. Always every time. Just add it to my phone right now I was like let me do that

[00:57:50] right now because I forget things. I'll remind you. At crime scene where you get to hear your

[00:58:00] feedback and suggestions for future episodes you can follow crime scene on Twitter at crime

[00:58:05] scene rhap that's scene s e en or email us at crime scene rhap at gmail.com. We're on tiktok at crime

[00:58:16] dot scene and on all other social media platforms at crime scene podcast and please remember to

[00:58:23] subscribe to our feed by going to rob has a website dot com slash crime feed it makes a big difference.

[00:58:30] It sure does. So Sarah what do you have going on and where can the people find you?

[00:58:36] Well like I am up to my eyeballs in a new cold case right now a cold case out of Kansas

[00:58:43] that is one that has kind of lived rent fray in my head since I first heard about it in 2016. I was

[00:58:49] in that region looking into another case that would become the hell in the heartland

[00:58:55] documentary series so you can find me there too but I'm right now just like primarily working on

[00:59:02] investigating this case and we ran into something of an evidence emergency and so I am very unexpectedly

[00:59:11] getting on a plane Sunday morning to go back down to Kansas and try and find a knife. So

[00:59:18] oh okay I'm sorry you can find me primarily on socials these days I have largely

[00:59:29] have sent it to myself from Twitter but you can find me on Instagram at just my name backwards

[00:59:37] Kailin Sarah that's me on Instagram and that's the best place to find me and follow me and get

[00:59:43] updates on cases and stuff like that and hit me up I'm always happy to talk about this stuff.

[00:59:49] Fantastic. Mary what about you what have you got going on?

[00:59:57] I know right so Wrestling Rehab Up is on hiatus of course me and Matt Scott have wrapped up our

[01:00:03] coverage of WrestleMania the road to WrestleMania we had so much fun if you haven't listened to

[01:00:08] our experience at WrestleMania in Philly a few weeks ago you can definitely go check us out by

[01:00:14] going to rahmhazelwebsite.com slash wrestling feed or going to our youtube page youtube.com

[01:00:20] slash at wrestling for half up that's at wrestling rjp up you can find me over on the recap kick

[01:00:28] back me and Chappelle are having a blast having so many guests I have about one more over there

[01:00:35] on the recap kickback before I go on maternity leave we just dropped we we did it so you didn't

[01:00:45] have to we watched the American Society of Magical Negroes and had an in-depth discussion

[01:00:52] on how we felt the film depicted magical black people me Chappelle and Latia joined forces again

[01:01:02] to discuss a very very controversial movie that you can't even find at theaters anymore that's how

[01:01:08] that's how backlashy it got so definitely go check out the recap kickback you can go to recap

[01:01:13] recapkickback.com or you can go to youtube.com slash at recap kickback it's so fun we are having

[01:01:22] all sorts of discussions over there about everything so go subscribe while I'm out Chappelle has a

[01:01:30] whole bunch of fun guests coming up so just make sure you're subscribed and of course you can find me

[01:01:38] on twitter at marie talks too much that's too like a number two no matter what I will be on twitter

[01:01:46] I can be out and still tweet so that's where you can find me

[01:01:52] Sarah what about you what are you up to and where can people find you

[01:01:56] well people can follow me on x formally twitter

[01:02:00] never calling it twitter it's always going to be twitter at Sarah Carradine I'm on I'm all over

[01:02:06] silent podcast reality tv out the wazoo I'm covering alone Australia season two with the great

[01:02:14] Annabelle Siddler and I'm covering taskmaster UK season 17 with Naomi Calhoun my latest project

[01:02:22] is with a comedian and taskmaster taskwriter and faithful trader person Sam Smith we are watching

[01:02:34] the traders Quebec neither of us speak French so we are just trying to untangle what's going on

[01:02:45] he has played the traders I've watched the traders we think we know what we're doing

[01:02:50] in a show called what did they front say

[01:02:57] so find us over there if you speak French or indeed if you are in that show please add us

[01:03:03] with everything we got wrong if indeed anything like we might have it exactly right who knows

[01:03:09] marie what's happening over the next few weeks uh like I said I will be going on maternity

[01:03:15] but our official third chair Sarah debunting will be stepping up thanks sdb you you and Sarah

[01:03:24] Sarah you got the reins now so don't crash okay yeah you have the keys yeah we've got

[01:03:33] quite a few things set up some interesting and exciting things as always next time on crime

[01:03:39] scenes so Sarah and I will be covering the scripted series under the bridge watch it on Hulu

[01:03:45] and send us your comments and questions thank you marie for 102 incredible episodes

[01:03:53] uh you'll be missed until you return thanks so much to Sarah Kalen your debut but hopefully

[01:04:00] the first of many appearances here on the scene thanks to Will from America for the theme music

[01:04:05] and the whole rhap team behind the scenes until next time okay bye bye case closed closed