Crime Seen | Episode 101: What Jennifer Did

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[00:00:29] Music

[00:00:54] Hello everyone, I'm Mari Forth.

[00:00:57] I'm Sarah Carradine podcasting from Gadigal, Sydney.

[00:01:01] And this is Crime Seen, the true crime review podcast where we get to the heart of how true crime stories are told.

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[00:01:36] Last time we watched Crime Seen Berlin Nightlife Killer with LaTonya Starks.

[00:01:42] Mari, what did we watch this week?

[00:01:44] This week we watched what Jennifer did on Netflix.

[00:01:49] It was directed by Jenny Papelwell.

[00:01:51] She directed two episodes of Rich and Shameless, The Crimes Against Pam and Tommy,

[00:01:56] and Farmer Bro versus Wutang Clan, as well as directing American Murder, The Family Next Door.

[00:02:06] We covered Rich and Shameless episode Rodman Stolen Millions with Chappelle back in episode 61.

[00:02:15] I also pretty sure that I did a recommendation for American Murder, The Family Next Door,

[00:02:21] on a previous episode, so I did enjoy that property as well.

[00:02:27] So can't wait to talk about this with our amazing guest.

[00:02:31] I've lost track about how many times she's been on here, so we'll have to consult the record books.

[00:02:38] But from Crime Writers On, Rebecca LaVoy.

[00:02:41] Rebecca, welcome back to the scene.

[00:02:43] I need to get an official count from Sarah.

[00:02:46] 17.

[00:02:47] No, counting the one where I forgot we were taping at least 17.

[00:02:52] Yeah, I think 17 or 18.

[00:02:54] No, not that many.

[00:02:56] I wish it was that many.

[00:02:57] I think this is number five.

[00:02:59] Oh, do I get a jacket?

[00:03:01] You get an imaginary mug.

[00:03:07] You're not at 10 for the engraved magnifying glass.

[00:03:11] Yeah.

[00:03:12] And the dad hat is around seven or eight.

[00:03:15] I think Chappelle and Matt are the ones who have that.

[00:03:18] So that'd be nice.

[00:03:20] That would be very nice.

[00:03:21] I'll take it.

[00:03:22] A nice imaginary crime scene coffee mug.

[00:03:26] Yes, the invisible coffee mug like Wonder Woman has, right?

[00:03:30] Yeah.

[00:03:32] Either way, we're so glad to have you back.

[00:03:35] I'm so glad to have you back.

[00:03:38] I wanted to say thank you for being here.

[00:03:40] I appreciate it.

[00:03:41] I appreciate you being here.

[00:03:43] I appreciate it.

[00:03:44] And I hope you enjoyed the series of Blast to have you on,

[00:03:47] especially to talk about these Netflix properties because they

[00:03:50] just keep churning them out.

[00:03:53] So let's go to the crime for this one.

[00:03:56] Because I definitely want to dive into the property.

[00:03:59] In November of 2010,

[00:04:00] I was a part of the family of two women,

[00:04:03] and one of them was a mother of three.

[00:04:05] And one of her children was a young woman.

[00:04:09] 24 year old daughter Jennifer called 911 saying she had been

[00:04:13] tied up by the intruders who were three black men.

[00:04:16] Two years before these events,

[00:04:18] Han had demanded that Jennifer breakup with her drug dealer

[00:04:22] boyfriend, Daniel Wong.

[00:04:24] And in addition,

[00:04:26] Jennifer was leading a double life telling her parents.

[00:04:30] And she said,

[00:04:31] As a kid,

[00:04:33] I liked to take my daughter.

[00:04:36] She decided to get bailed out.

[00:04:38] She wanted to say yes to the verdict.

[00:04:41] She was charged with murder for having committed suicide.

[00:04:44] She had no chance of getting into the rape certificate.

[00:04:47] Police investigators determined that Jennifer had conspired

[00:04:50] with Daniel.

[00:04:52] To hire the intruders to kill her parents.

[00:04:54] The killers were promised $10,000 with Jennifer estimating

[00:04:56] that she would inherit about $500,000.

[00:04:57] accused have been granted a new trial. Jennifer maintains her innocence. This property was

[00:05:05] very, very interesting. So I cannot wait to talk to you guys about this. Let's start with

[00:05:12] our overall thoughts and feelings about this documentary which ran about 87 minutes so

[00:05:17] it wasn't a long watch at all. It wasn't a three episode arc like Netflix loves

[00:05:22] to do. Rebecca, what are your overall thoughts after watching the documentary?

[00:05:29] Well, I do love a documentary that shows and doesn't tell. And I will say that Jenny

[00:05:37] Papa-Will's other documentary The Family Next Door about the Watts case is actually a

[00:05:43] documentary that I super loved because the case is very, very, very dark. But what I love

[00:05:49] about that documentary is that it basically gives you the entire view of it through found

[00:05:56] footage and through, I mean, my found footage. I mean, it's not like, you know,

[00:06:00] they're witch or anything. Exactly. Exactly. It's, you know, it's police body cam footage

[00:06:06] and interrogation footage. And you really understand, you know, the progress of the

[00:06:12] investigation through the eyes of the cops through Shanann social media posts. And it's

[00:06:18] like you get a really in depth look at how that case unfolded. This has sort of that same vibe ish.

[00:06:26] And I will say light. Yeah, it's like that vibe light. I wish I will say I wish there was a little

[00:06:34] bit more about some of the motivations and some of the, you know, what maybe the media got

[00:06:40] right and wrong about the case, which is stuff I think that you can find on the internet a

[00:06:43] little bit. But overall, like it's a story that I didn't know anything about. So, you know,

[00:06:48] anytime there's a story that like I go into and I'm like, I've never heard of this before,

[00:06:52] I don't know anything about it. It gets me, you know, a little bit more interested than I

[00:06:55] would otherwise be if that makes sense. Yeah, that makes sense. Sarah, how about you? Your

[00:07:01] thoughts? I liked this documentary a lot actually. I like the pace of it. It's if I say

[00:07:10] stately, that sounds like it's boring. But it's quite slow ish paste, which I appreciated. I didn't

[00:07:17] know the case either. I liked stepping through at that kind of slow pace. And I knew something was

[00:07:28] coming. So there's a, I suppose what in another person's hands would be this, you know, fireworks,

[00:07:35] twist, wow twist. But it was just quite a gentle twist. And we knew it was coming. And I quite liked

[00:07:42] that because like why are we spending so much time looking and relooking at the interviews?

[00:07:47] Why are we hearing the 911 call multiple times? Why are we talking to the victims advocate?

[00:07:53] I thought very interesting, we don't normally talk to victims advocates. Why is she there?

[00:07:57] We just assume that she's going to be looking after the victims interests. And yet of course

[00:08:02] with the swerve, her input is really fascinating. So I felt at the end of the 87 minutes

[00:08:12] slightly wears the rest of it. I don't mind it being short, please give me short. But there were

[00:08:19] things I felt that I was missing. But whether that's a case of Oh, it's an interesting start to jump

[00:08:25] off and do my own people say my own research. It's just looking things up on the internet.

[00:08:30] It's just doing things. It's not a little bit of side-googing never goes. Australian, I think

[00:08:36] property can intrigue you enough to go and do more, but be satisfying in itself,

[00:08:41] as opposed to something that has just got huge chunks missing. And you have to go and

[00:08:46] find out for yourself and you're a bit resentful. And I feel like it mostly falls in that

[00:08:51] first category. How about you, Mari? Yeah, so I like the documentary, but I immediately,

[00:09:02] I didn't know the case at all either. At least I don't think I know the case. And I left it

[00:09:08] feeling like I still didn't kind of know the case in a sense. Like, I definitely

[00:09:14] like realized that she was unfolding the case through the mostly interrogation footage. This

[00:09:21] is really just interrogation footage. You're talking to like the cops and the investigators,

[00:09:27] but it feels like it's just interrogation footage between Jennifer and Daniel Wong.

[00:09:33] And I agree, Rebecca, once we found out that this director did American Nightmare,

[00:09:40] I wasn't surprised. I was like, yes, this has the same feel to it. I think the problem is American

[00:09:45] Nightmare had a lot more meat on its bones when it comes to everything that happened with the

[00:09:52] Watts Family case. This case, at least what's presented on this documentary felt very bare

[00:09:58] bones. It felt very like cut and dry once they kind of broke the case open. I'm really actually

[00:10:05] kind of wondering because I don't, maybe one of the two of you know, because I feel like it wasn't really

[00:10:12] talked about in the documentary. Like, what was the timeline of this case? It feels like they

[00:10:18] could have figured out that Jennifer was kind of behind this within like two to three days.

[00:10:23] You know what I'm saying? Yeah. Yeah, that's a good question. I don't really know that either.

[00:10:27] There's a couple of questions I have. I mean, I'll say, can I just talk about,

[00:10:31] I mean, I don't want to like dwell too much on the other documentary she made, but like,

[00:10:35] I'll tell you what was so good about the Shanann Watts documentary was that you get so much of the

[00:10:42] victim in that because they have so much of her social media in it. And you have so much of Chris

[00:10:49] in it, because also so much of his there's so much of him doing stuff before the murder,

[00:10:55] after the murder. I mean, there's just so much of the people and I actually think that like

[00:11:02] Shanann's like even her MLM stuff online and like, you know, it's like that just paints such a complete

[00:11:10] picture of the situation that this family was in. It paints a complete picture of, by the way,

[00:11:17] the tipping point was, yes. And this is not me victim blaming in any way, but it

[00:11:21] completes a complete picture of sort of like the dysfunction of like the discordant views

[00:11:27] of the relationship that she had versus him. You know, it really it gives you a sort of a sense of

[00:11:35] like the awfulness of the crime when you see her portraying this image of a perfect life on social

[00:11:42] media versus kind of what you knew was actually going on and it's just like it makes it,

[00:11:47] I don't know. It was like there was a very like stark darkness to it that, you know,

[00:11:53] really drove home that wasn't just like, oh, this guy stuffed his family into a hole. Like

[00:11:57] it could have been so gross, but it wasn't. And this is like there's a very incomplete picture

[00:12:04] of both the victims and the perpetrator. Yes. Also an incomplete picture of the accomplices.

[00:12:11] I'm wondering like why did why did Danny do this? And I actually asked, so I got to interview

[00:12:18] Jenny Papelwell and Paul Nguyen, the producer for this for the Netflix documentary. And I asked

[00:12:22] and basically that's kind of unknown because she had a very dysfunctional relationship with Danny

[00:12:31] Wong. Like they had broken up, you know, he was dating someone else, you know, apparently like

[00:12:36] there was some real toxic stuff going on between them. And you know why he would participate

[00:12:44] isn't something that, you know, it's a very hard question to answer, right?

[00:12:48] Yes. With the little that they even with the little that they gave us of the text messaging

[00:12:53] back and forth between Jennifer and Danny, it felt weird because it felt like initially she was

[00:12:59] like, oh, I want you to kill my parents. And he's like, uh, kind of a luck there. I don't know.

[00:13:04] And then and then it flips. And then now she's like, Oh, I don't know if I want to go

[00:13:09] to he's like, I set it up already, though, like, come on, I set it up already. He said this

[00:13:13] how we I was like, what is happening here? Like, I felt so incomplete. Like you said,

[00:13:20] I don't know anything. I feel like I don't know anything about big the mom who who died.

[00:13:27] We she went dancing. She went dancing. Yes. Yes. That's all we knew. And and and the

[00:13:34] father who survived the motivations, the accomplices, of course, I always watch all this

[00:13:42] stuff with my husband. And he was like, wait, but what happened to the people that that helped her?

[00:13:47] You know, even the the accusal of Oh, it was three black men. As soon as I heard that,

[00:13:53] I rolled my eyes. I was like, of course. And and then we don't even we don't even get who

[00:13:59] the accomplices are. At one point they start blurring her face in the interview. I'm like,

[00:14:04] why is her face blurred when we've already seen her face? It felt so weird and discordant.

[00:14:11] And I'm sorry, audience, if it feels like I'm jumping around. But Sarah, did you feel like

[00:14:15] we got a complete picture here with this case? No, it's almost like and we have the last people

[00:14:21] to ask for three parts. But it almost feels like this is part one. And now rewind, let's see what

[00:14:28] really was happening through, I don't know, through other methods, through methods, who knows? Or

[00:14:35] I wanted more, but I'm not sure what the more that I wanted was. Right? You can go to the you can

[00:14:42] go to the Wikipedia page. Don't it's not it's not the Wikipedia page. Well, apparently a bunch of

[00:14:48] stuff on there isn't true. I mean, that's what Jenny Papawal told me is there's a bunch of stuff

[00:14:53] in there on there. That's not true. Like, apparently, I mean, on the week I went to the

[00:14:57] Wikipedia page before interviewing her and there's stuff on there about how about how Jennifer,

[00:15:04] by the way, the title what Jennifer did you, you say you said it was a slow burn and like

[00:15:09] then you it was a twist and like, is it a twist from the thing? No, it's not a no, it was never.

[00:15:13] Anyway, on the Wikipedia page, it says things like that, you know, Jennifer was so sheltered

[00:15:20] that she had never been to a party. Apparently, Jenny Papawal found out that that wasn't true.

[00:15:26] They interviewed a bunch of people who had been to parties with Jennifer. They said that,

[00:15:30] you know, she had never it says like that she always had never never drove herself anywhere

[00:15:35] that she was always driven anywhere by her parents. Apparently, her parents gave her a white BMW and

[00:15:40] she drove herself lots of places in that car. The Wikipedia page says all kinds of things about

[00:15:46] her incredibly sheltered life. It makes it sound like she was a prisoner in her own home.

[00:15:51] And that apparently is just not true. And apparently, like her beginning the beginning

[00:15:58] of her career as a liar kind of began, you know, it began early. It began like, and she was not going

[00:16:06] to be a championship figure skater. She did not have this like Olympic aspiration of the Wikipedia

[00:16:11] page says she had. She was a very good piano player. And there was a lot of pressure on her.

[00:16:18] But apparently, like lying about your grades and stuff is a very common lie that I'm just

[00:16:24] going to say I did it when I was in college the first time around. I was failing out totally

[00:16:28] lied to my parents about it. It's a very, very common thing that people do does not make you a

[00:16:33] murderer and like equating like lying about grades and stuff when you're young. Obviously,

[00:16:38] she took it very, very far. But yeah, apparently, like researching it online is not the way to

[00:16:44] go. And that's something else the documentary doesn't address is that all the untruths

[00:16:50] about this story that are apparently out there that have become the, you know, popular narrative

[00:16:56] about the case. But wouldn't that be a fascinating focus to sure from that angle? So yeah, he's

[00:17:04] Jennifer Strelitz listen to Jennifer. Let's believe Jennifer. Now let's look and see the arms of

[00:17:11] all the lies and who covered and who helped and who didn't write what was expected and what

[00:17:17] wasn't even to if you read the wiki the wiki page, you think this these things are demonstrably not

[00:17:24] true. How does this stuff like it could have had a broader I mean, I do like documentaries that

[00:17:29] are just about the thing they're about. But I also like documentaries that place it within kind of

[00:17:34] a broader aspect. Right. Yeah. Yeah. I understand the mission here though, right? The mission I

[00:17:40] think was to just tell a story differently than I had been told before. I totally get that but

[00:17:46] I think as if you from a viewer like me, like, I didn't know how it had been told before. Right.

[00:17:51] So I didn't know that it was breaking a previous narrative. I would have liked just a hint

[00:17:57] of the previous narrative. So I knew that this narrative was different and that this was more

[00:18:02] like just saying like, this is somebody who put just like looks like participated in a conspiracy

[00:18:08] to murder her parents. And people said this but it wasn't true. Like that would have been,

[00:18:14] I think helpful. Like this apparently really took hold in two pockets of media obviously the Canadian

[00:18:20] media mainstream media went bananas with it but so did the Asian media in Canada which really ran

[00:18:27] with this quote like Tiger dad narrative where her father was allegedly so oppressive

[00:18:34] that it made her like a killer. I mean, I'm not saying that's what happened. I'm saying

[00:18:40] that sort of took hold and I'm sorry Rebecca was that the story maybe presented at trial or

[00:18:48] no, that was a story that took hold like in the in the it was an immediate narrative.

[00:18:53] And I don't know if that's I don't know if that's what came out at trial. I didn't follow.

[00:18:56] I didn't look at any of the trial coverage. We don't get the trial. We don't

[00:19:00] that's exactly where I was going. The basis of the appeal was I don't know why 14 years later

[00:19:06] they're still waiting for another trial and the timeline even though they had day one day whatever

[00:19:12] it is up to day 10 like you Mario wasn't sure they seem to solve it pretty quickly. And yet

[00:19:18] the final title tells us that there's an appeal and it's 14 years later.

[00:19:23] Rebecca, you're talking about the agent Asian media media and also the mainstream media like

[00:19:28] really did focus on this narrative about you know, the pressure of you know, being an Asian child

[00:19:36] and having these oppressive immigrant parents. And that really took on and really took hold without

[00:19:42] looking at the fact that like, I mean, there's a bunch of things that were not looked at. I mean,

[00:19:47] one of the things that I thought immediately was like she immediately went to like a bunch of

[00:19:50] black men that broke into my house. That's something the documentary doesn't address. And

[00:19:55] that's something that like it wasn't particularly addressed in the media at the time. Maybe it was

[00:20:00] but that's not not any of the coverage that I was able to find like there are so many dynamics at play

[00:20:06] here that you know, were I think areas of exploration that a documentary about this could

[00:20:14] have taken what I think these folks were trying to do was reset the narrative about this case.

[00:20:21] And I understand that instinct. I completely do. I think a little hint of what the conventional

[00:20:27] narrative was may have helped me understand that they were resetting the narrative.

[00:20:33] I mean, I think I said I said twist, but it's not exactly a twist because as you say,

[00:20:38] the title is what Jennifer did. Okay, so what did she do? She did something. And I think

[00:20:44] because of the way it set up in the atmosphere and the pace, we know something's coming. I appreciated

[00:20:51] that it wasn't treated as a huge explosion twist as another documentary maker might have done.

[00:21:01] So I liked it like that. I mean, we had listener Kirsten sent us a message just watched it and

[00:21:09] loved it. What did you guys think of the body language in the interviews? Was it obvious who

[00:21:14] was lying? I think that's a bit after the fact and also because of the way the documentary set up.

[00:21:19] We're on alert to why we're seeing so much of her. The idea that you can look at someone and tell if

[00:21:26] they're lying, I think is incredibly dangerous, particularly in law enforcement. And we are

[00:21:30] going to meet the specialist in lying whoever he is. Human light detector. The human light

[00:21:39] detector who was backing her this, her up into a corner and I just I was like, yeah, such bullshit.

[00:21:46] Honestly, yeah, like it was a slow march to the unfolding of the story. I mean,

[00:21:53] you know, it's called what Jennifer did. I felt like it was just building upon the story. So

[00:21:58] we get her first initial interview where she's crying, she's distraught, she's telling the

[00:22:03] interviewers what happened, what they initially think happened. And who breaks in the three black

[00:22:11] men, she's tied, she hears two shots, blah, blah, blah. Then the next interview is kind of like,

[00:22:17] okay, a little bit more like she's revealing a little bit more and like, oh, yeah, my grades,

[00:22:24] they made me break up with Daniel Wong but it's still like they still broke into our house. It

[00:22:29] was still random, you know? And like each consecutive interview was like the unfolding of the story.

[00:22:36] You were tied up upstairs in the banister. Yes. How did you make the 911 phone call? Oh,

[00:22:43] it was in my pocket and I had she had to demonstrate how she did that. And then finally

[00:22:48] like the last one where she's basically confessing or when she accidentally kind of like

[00:22:54] at first they asked her like, you made this bachelor of science degree and they thought you had graduated.

[00:23:03] So they never found out that you didn't graduate and she initially says no. And then later on in the

[00:23:08] interview she's like, oh, they were mad when they found out. And they're like, wait, so they found

[00:23:13] out that you lied to them? And she had a like backtrack. So I mean, I liked that aspect of it.

[00:23:20] I liked seeing the multiple interviews. You could definitely tell she was unraveling, you know,

[00:23:27] even the police said it on the thing like she was holding her stomach. She was like shaking.

[00:23:33] She was, you could tell she was getting more and more anxious as some of those later ones went on

[00:23:40] because I think she was starting to see that the jig was up and could not think

[00:23:47] past what she had already tried to come up with. And seeing that I thought was the most

[00:23:53] powerful thing about the case. And that's what gets you through. Like, I think that's basically

[00:24:00] the whole first hour hour and 10 minutes is when that unfolds. And then I feel I just feel like

[00:24:07] that last 27 ish minutes is a little rushed because we get the father waking up, we get

[00:24:14] the speed through the cake. Like I felt like that last was that last little bit rushed to you, Rebecca?

[00:24:20] Yes. And I have an answer to your question, by the way, Sarah. So the reason she got an appeal

[00:24:26] was because the original trial judge made an error and not giving the jury verdict options for

[00:24:31] second degree murder and manslaughter in the case. So the judge made a technical error

[00:24:34] and that's why she got an appeal. Anyway, thank you for the answer. You're welcome.

[00:24:40] It took me 30 seconds to look it up and find that out. Anyway, yes, no, I agree that it felt rushed

[00:24:46] and to me like the dad waking up, you know, saying this is what I saw instead, all that stuff. Also,

[00:24:54] this is the thing that I really would love to explore because I know this to be true.

[00:25:01] As a child, and I'm going to reveal something about myself that I've already revealed a little

[00:25:05] bit. I was a serial liar to my parents. I was one of those kids. I was and the reason why is not

[00:25:15] because I was a psychopathic monster. The reason why was because I was afraid to tell the truth

[00:25:23] for good reasons, right? Like I was in a very fraught difficult situation, like not abusive,

[00:25:32] but a fraught difficult situation where telling the truth honestly was emotionally more difficult

[00:25:40] than lying was. That is so common, is so unbelievably common. This is why young people lie to their

[00:25:48] parents. Young people don't lie to their parents because they're evil. Young people lie to their

[00:25:52] parents because their parents create an atmosphere where it is easy to tell the truth. And this

[00:25:58] is not explored at all in the documentary, right? And also, I think that in Jennifer's case, there's

[00:26:06] absolutely a possibility that maybe she was that kind of teenager and then that just snowballed,

[00:26:16] right? Not only so it's maybe she started there and then she met like the wrong people. She got

[00:26:23] involved with Danny, then it snowballed in a situation where her parents didn't like Danny and

[00:26:28] then she started lying to him. And then that behavior sort of became imprinted on her.

[00:26:34] And then she got involved with like some and then Danny introduced her to some worse folks.

[00:26:39] You know what I mean? So like rather than what happened to me, which is within my 20s,

[00:26:45] I created my own sort of community and family and realized you could just be a regular person

[00:26:51] and like be true to yourself and others. And your amygdala like doesn't take over your brain anymore.

[00:26:56] Like, you know, she never had that opportunity. Like so I do I just think there's a whole like

[00:27:01] psychological aspect of this that I found really fascinating. And when you say it felt rushed

[00:27:06] at the end, like, I would have loved an expert to come in and explore some of those adolescent.

[00:27:12] I know she was 24. But this all started when she was like 13. Right. And the documentary

[00:27:19] hints at that but doesn't really like go into it if that makes sense. And this is nothing new too

[00:27:25] here here, Sarah, like half a snap is either like women whose husbands cheat on them or whatever

[00:27:34] or they're cheating on their husbands. But the other half is always like a young girl

[00:27:38] who's fallen in love or something parents say no and she they they revenge on the

[00:27:45] parent or the parents won't let them do something like that. That is that is something that is,

[00:27:51] you know, not unique to the true crime space, but could have been explored here.

[00:27:57] Sarah, what do you think about Rebecca's ideas of that like that teenage angst bubbling into

[00:28:04] over into murder? Well, I mean, teenage angst, I nodding along Rebecca with your

[00:28:11] story. I'm also a very practiced liar from way back. Exactly. As an adult, I'm a fucking terrible

[00:28:19] liar. I just want to tell you. But yes, the fear of the truth coming out. And in fact, there's a

[00:28:27] gorgeous bit of shade from Detective David McDonald where he says to her and you know,

[00:28:32] this is key. He says to you didn't think this far ahead. Did you because he asks her a question

[00:28:36] she can't answer because she's lied and then lied and then flipped and flopped.

[00:28:41] And he says you didn't think this far ahead. And that's the thing with the serial liar.

[00:28:45] It's how to get out of the situation I am in right now. Right. I'm in danger of

[00:28:52] violence. I'm in danger of abuse or I'm in danger of a probrium or I'm in danger of something.

[00:28:59] So I will reflexively tell a very palatable lie. But I'm not thinking about

[00:29:06] when this comes around how am I going to back it up? So where does that I mean, because I

[00:29:11] haven't murdered anyone. I've broken the law but I've never murdered anyone. You have. Oh yeah.

[00:29:17] Oh yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, serious, very serious, very serious. Marie knows a very serious crime

[00:29:22] that I was never caught for. A foolish crime of my early youth, my early womanhood.

[00:29:32] But yeah, it's like how does that turn to murder? Is it just do you just get swept along?

[00:29:40] I mean, that's no excuse of course. So having someone come in in that final section and just

[00:29:47] lay down a little bit of cold science. Not that psychology is cold, but you know,

[00:29:53] actually Marie I thought of you when she had the fake bachelor's in science I thought oh Marie,

[00:29:56] don't be happy. But to step back from we're very much in Jennifer's world or we the attempt

[00:30:05] is to put us into Jennifer's world. Yeah. And I think stepping back from it and saying

[00:30:11] this is how this happens. You know, this is how so it's not just what she did, but this is how

[00:30:18] this is a path that can be taken. No, you know, seeking to excuse her. We never really got that.

[00:30:26] And so we're left with Tiger dad, lying daughter who has no choice

[00:30:34] pushed into murder by drug dealer boyfriend and that's not just doesn't feel like that's

[00:30:40] not the story. I'm looking at the talking heads and we don't have it the only talking head that

[00:30:46] we have that cut like the victim liaison officer that you mentioned, but like, but even she's a

[00:30:53] detective. It's like it's all police. There's no like a teen psychologist or like a early

[00:31:01] young adult psychologist here would have been great just to kind of do some inference on what

[00:31:07] where Jennifer's head could have been at. But you know, maybe they didn't have

[00:31:14] the other thing too that I always think about is like, so Jenny Papa well said to me and by the

[00:31:20] way, Jenny Papa Wells lovely. So I don't want to like disparage her in any way. She literally said

[00:31:24] to me like, I can't put myself inside the head of Jennifer, right? True. Maybe they couldn't

[00:31:31] find somebody who was willing to analyze someone that they had never met and they didn't

[00:31:35] want to put someone on the screen who was willing to analyze them. That makes sense.

[00:31:39] Is also very valid, super valid. So there's a lot of reasons why we may not have seen that it just

[00:31:46] opened up this world of questions for me and you know as somebody who I feel really strongly about

[00:31:53] like personal development of young people and you know, you know, I we watched

[00:31:59] because there's another Netflix documentary that we watched that I did an interview about

[00:32:04] that I felt so differently after I did the interview about it that I had I had like

[00:32:09] very mixed feelings about when I watched it and then felt so much more

[00:32:13] positively about it after I did the interview and that's unlocked a prison experiment. I don't

[00:32:18] know if you guys have heard of it, seen it. So I felt when we were watching it, I had so many

[00:32:23] questions about the level of consent of the inmates participating. I had so many questions

[00:32:29] about the sort of good faith whether or not it was really done in good faith. I had so many

[00:32:35] questions about just the idea of like an experiment being done on like incarcerated people like the

[00:32:40] so and then one of the people I interviewed was actually the sheriff running the jail

[00:32:46] and the sheriff himself is the most like progressive guy running a jail I have ever

[00:32:56] talked to or like even heard of and he's like unbelievable and his whole thing is like

[00:33:03] his whole thing is you need to give people an opportunity to like, you know,

[00:33:10] yeah, this is incredible moment in the documentary where the prisoners like completely

[00:33:16] I'm sorry the inmates because they're not prisoners yet. They actually are in a jail

[00:33:19] where they they oh they're actually their prisoners. Let's face it. They're

[00:33:22] they're being imprisoned. They completely fail like they completely break the rules.

[00:33:28] They bucket they're like and he instead of being punitive and ending the experiment,

[00:33:33] he's like no, they needed they need to they need to be given a chance to see that like

[00:33:38] their failure does not end this for them because that's how society works in like

[00:33:43] in a healthy society you can make mistakes and be forgiven and

[00:33:48] and like so there you know I like to see like sort of a more holistic view right

[00:33:57] and I didn't get that until I interviewed the guy because it wasn't present in the

[00:34:01] documentary and I feel like sort of the same way about this and I don't know it's just I

[00:34:09] but I also get like when you don't have that material you can't include that material

[00:34:14] so yeah it's tough right

[00:34:19] for nearly four decades jmk security solutions has provided protection for homes and businesses

[00:34:25] I know firsthand I'm Jeff Beckman and with my wife Kim we started jmk security solutions

[00:34:30] our attention to detail service after the sale and product knowledge are the foundation of our

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[00:34:44] let us protect what is valuable to you jkscurity.com

[00:34:50] for nearly four decades jmk security solutions has provided protection for homes and businesses

[00:34:56] I know firsthand I'm Jeff Beckman and with my wife Kim we started jmk security solutions

[00:35:01] our attention to detail service after the sale and product knowledge are the foundation of our

[00:35:05] success jmk security has routinely been recognized as the best of anison for security companies

[00:35:10] we expect that trend to continue as the next generation our son Jeffrey takes over as president

[00:35:15] let us protect what is valuable to you jkscurity.com

[00:35:21] for nearly four decades jmk security solutions has provided protection for homes and businesses

[00:35:26] I know firsthand I'm Jeff Beckman and with my wife Kim we started jmk security solutions

[00:35:31] our attention to detail service after the sale and product knowledge are the foundation of our

[00:35:36] success jmk security has routinely been recognized as the best of anison for security companies

[00:35:41] we expect that trend to continue as the next generation our son Jeffrey takes over as president

[00:35:46] let us protect what is valuable to you jkscurity.com

[00:35:52] since jmk security solutions opened in 1987 our attention to detail and customer service

[00:35:58] have been our strongest assets I'm president Jeffrey Beckman we'll always do our best to find

[00:36:03] the most efficient and cost-effective solution to every job we tackle whether it's security for

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[00:36:17] work together to secure your home or business jkscurity.com

[00:36:21] Just on mental health professional psychologists talking about people they haven't met I think that's

[00:36:28] a very good point however in two very good Netflix properties that we've looked at

[00:36:34] recently and sort of in the recent past one of them being crime scene Berlin and the other being

[00:36:40] dancing on the grave from Netflix India in both cases they had psychologists who did comment

[00:36:46] in broad terms having not met the perpetrators they commented in broad terms about behaviors and

[00:36:56] what can lead someone towards something and what the mentality is particularly a woman in

[00:37:01] Germany who seemed very excited about the idea of killing someone she actually put herself in that

[00:37:06] mindset she was amusing but she was also very insightful so I appreciate someone and none

[00:37:12] of us should be talking about the mental health of anybody we haven't met particularly

[00:37:18] unqualified people like us but I think that there is in in the way that we seek to understand

[00:37:26] humans broadly there is value in saying these are the things that can happen these are the

[00:37:33] lines of thought that can be made I mean as we sit here horrifically on on a few days ago

[00:37:42] there was a knife attack in a in a shopping center here in Bonnad Junction literally up the road

[00:37:47] 10 minutes away and our community is very very shaken a man just went in and just stabbed

[00:37:55] just stabbed six people stabbed more than six people six people died and more injured

[00:38:01] and then he was shot by a young woman police officer how she's feeling now we don't know

[00:38:08] know but his parents said yes he had mental health issues so the whole story is about mental

[00:38:15] health issues but with no like what kind of what are you talking about when you're talking about

[00:38:21] mental health issues right I mean the press has been pretty not very good about this we're all shocked

[00:38:28] of course we have to I'm sorry but deal with some Americans saying see if you had guns

[00:38:34] that would have been fine but you're going no if he had a gun it would be a lot more than six people

[00:38:39] did can I say and we wouldn't have the wonderful image of a Frenchman holding him off with a

[00:38:44] bullet you can't do that with a man with a gun my point and I do have one is that

[00:38:52] I'm sure he had mental health issues like look what he did but what are we talking about

[00:38:58] are we talking about something from the from the list of things that are actually psychiatric

[00:39:03] issues are we talking about he was a bit upset apparently he was concerned that he didn't have

[00:39:09] a girlfriend this is from his father where's the I mean it's very close to to us in time and

[00:39:16] place so obviously there needs to be some kind of time and space to think about what all this

[00:39:21] is but again we need to place it somehow I mean some things are not understandable but we need to

[00:39:28] place it somehow in a context of how the brain works how we are as humans how we interact with each

[00:39:34] other and yeah so that's a very long way around to saying no I agree I think our our willingness

[00:39:42] to dehumanize people who commit crimes is is not great I think it's bad actually and you know

[00:39:48] you know I we just watch this documentary The Truth versus Alex Jones and it's about you know Alex Jones

[00:39:55] the media guy who is you know he's a despicable human being who is a Sandy Hook truther and you

[00:40:02] know we had this whole conversation on Crime Raiders on and I was saying like people listen to him

[00:40:06] because he's a good broadcaster they do and it's like you might say like he's disgusting

[00:40:09] why would anyone listen to him the bottom line is he's good at his job that's why people

[00:40:12] listen to him but the documentary never mentions the Sandy Hook shooter's name and that's a choice

[00:40:19] they make and like there's this whole idea about like don't platform you know because but I I actually

[00:40:25] think it's not contextual for that documentary is that documentary is about Alex Jones it's

[00:40:31] not about Adam Lanza and so I'm saying the shooter's name his name is Adam Lanza the

[00:40:37] he had severe mental health issues and there are there's a lot of reporting around him and how he

[00:40:45] was failed by you know allegedly by his mother he was failed by an entire like system around him

[00:40:53] there was there were tons of signs that he was going to be violent and then he was provided

[00:40:59] with weapons like there's a there like that that guy you know to just say like you know born evil

[00:41:08] destined to murder a bunch of people is not right this is somebody who you know I'm not saying

[00:41:15] would have had like a perfect life or whatever but you know I do think the sort of black and

[00:41:20] white approach to people who commit crimes is bad and I do think some analysis is helpful

[00:41:26] but it's like you can only know what you know and yes I agree that like and I think we're going

[00:41:31] like maybe a far field here for this time yeah well yes well yeah that being said this very simplistic

[00:41:37] approach like this time if you if you had if you lived in a vacuum and this was the only

[00:41:42] true crime thing you ever saw and you had met you had no no context you walked away from this

[00:41:49] without any sense of like the intentionality of filmmakers you might just think evil person

[00:41:54] period no context straight evil born evil did evil deserves to be in prison

[00:42:02] no you know what I mean and like maybe that's true but you know maybe there's other stuff going on

[00:42:08] and we can't know right yeah that's a very interesting take because even I felt like

[00:42:15] kind of like her portrayal maybe it was because we got to see so much footage of her actually

[00:42:20] I still felt that she was a kind of a sympathetic character and I think them not introducing the

[00:42:27] accomplices not talking more about the setup of it actually made her seem more sweet and then

[00:42:34] all this stuff that I think we're talking about I think could have been alleviated is

[00:42:39] if we had even just a little bit of maybe the trial you know some some things that happened

[00:42:45] in the trial because I'm always gonna I'm always gonna think what did the defense say

[00:42:51] what was her defense you know I'm saying like what what was her defense so that's why when I hear that

[00:42:56] oh um he he might have been a a a tiger dad and all that that was my first guess I'm like okay

[00:43:03] so was that their defense that she was so you know um trapped that she felt like this

[00:43:09] was the only way like I really wish I really wish we would have gotten it maybe just a little bit of

[00:43:16] the trial but again maybe if the case was maybe if the case was presented a little differently

[00:43:22] maybe I wouldn't I wouldn't be needing um or wanting pieces of the trial but I'm just trying

[00:43:28] to think of other ways that we could have introduced more information about the case and

[00:43:34] about the people themselves a little bit more if that makes sense yeah absolutely yeah so let's

[00:43:42] wow we are we are in it today yes sorry I didn't mean to get so deep but no no no we love it great

[00:43:50] we're we're really thinking here and you can tell like you can tell when we have properties that

[00:43:56] kind of get us revved up when it comes to like thinking and and it's always it's always a good

[00:44:02] podcast when we're trying to fix it in a way the property we we saw let's let's get into our ratings

[00:44:12] and and we can do our final thoughts as we do our ratings Rebecca how many magnifying glasses are you

[00:44:18] gonna rate what Jennifer did out of a possible five oof this is a toughy for me yeah this is a

[00:44:26] real toughy uh because it all depends on like I know more about it than the average viewer right

[00:44:32] because I actually like understand the intentions of the filmmakers so given that I I'm just gonna be

[00:44:39] honest because I do understand the intentions of the filmmakers I'm not gonna rate it as as though I

[00:44:43] don't which is which is like a strange thing so with that with that being said I'm gonna say

[00:44:49] 3.75 okay 3.75 any is that fair oh yeah that's fair any any more elaboration uh I would say uh

[00:45:00] I could have used and I I never say things should be longer ever but I actually agree this could

[00:45:06] have been two parts not not three maybe two um I maybe would have separated it you know from the

[00:45:15] I would have ended it at the revelation that she was involved and then have part two be sort of

[00:45:22] about the conspiracy and then about her going back in time from when she was a teenager uh really

[00:45:30] going through the timeline of you know when she began you know lying to her parents what her

[00:45:37] journey as a teenager was really like you know sort of unraveling that and then also learning

[00:45:43] more I think that may be learning a little bit more about the parents their life their lives as

[00:45:47] immigrants in Canada um and more about like sort of the community and more about the media around

[00:45:53] the case and deconstructing what was wrong about it that's that's maybe what I would have done in

[00:45:57] the second half of it so yeah if it were a little bit longer we could have gotten some of that

[00:46:01] I probably would bump that score up a little bit but yeah I'm gonna go 3.75 magnifying

[00:46:07] yeah so how about you um spot on Rebecca that's exactly what I would think two parts seems deemed

[00:46:17] or you know because it falls into two parts there's the slow revelation and build as Mary said about

[00:46:23] the first interview the second interview the third interview we talked to the very mild

[00:46:28] seeming detectives about their process and I like process I like them saying we went here and we did

[00:46:34] this the detectives were very polite they were very polite so I think as far as it went it was excellent

[00:46:44] like it's uh as far as it went it's like a four and a half right for me I'm knocking it down to a

[00:46:50] three and a half because I it as far as it went it was great and then I sort of fell off a cliff

[00:46:56] because where's the rest of it and I think in talking I said at the beginning is it one of

[00:47:01] those ones that sort of deliciously sends you off for really interesting side-googing but is

[00:47:07] complete in itself and I'm also I feel like I'm almost moving now to it being great you know

[00:47:15] not not satisfyingly sending me off into uh into googleable stuff not including why there was an appeal

[00:47:23] Rebecca but see you just ask people and you get the answer so three and a half for me what about

[00:47:28] you Mari uh yeah that's exactly where I was going I was going three and a half as well because

[00:47:35] I did like what was presented exactly like you said I liked what was presented

[00:47:40] however I I did leave the property having more questions than I thought I should

[00:47:48] yeah and I I mean I think we really talked to over all of the things as to why

[00:47:56] but I I do find it very entertaining you know I don't know if that's the best word for when

[00:48:02] we're watching true crime but it is it didn't feel overdone it didn't feel over sensationalized again

[00:48:10] we're missing the victims here we're missing the background for most of the victims but

[00:48:16] really leaning into using the using the confessional footage I think was a very smart choice for the

[00:48:26] director here so 3.5 you know way better than than average that's for sure

[00:48:35] okay recommendations Rebecca what do you have to recommend to our listeners

[00:48:40] well I hear this might be a repeat on the podcast but I have had the absolute pleasure of going ahead

[00:48:49] in time and listening to all of the magnificent podcast beyond all repair from WBUR and ZSP productions

[00:49:01] that Zach Stewart Pontier by the way he's also behind the Jinx and Jinx too he actually partnered

[00:49:07] with Amory Sievertson and Made Beyond All Repair it is in my opinion one of the best podcasts I have

[00:49:17] ever heard bar none and when I describe people what it's about they don't think it sounds that

[00:49:24] interesting and frankly when I it's just about a woman who may or may not have committed a murder

[00:49:30] and Amory Sievertson is just trying to talk to her and others and figure out whether maybe

[00:49:36] she did it or maybe her brother did it doesn't sound that interesting it's actually about a very

[00:49:42] fucked up family and it's actually about whether or not you can actually discover the truth when

[00:49:49] maybe this is actually kind of thematic you might be talking to a serial liar it is it is just

[00:49:57] beautifully written gorgeously delivered perfectly made and it is the rare podcast where the

[00:50:05] minute an episode's over you immediately have to listen to the next one and Amory Sievertson makes

[00:50:10] it sound so easy like it's just it does not sound overworked it's just flowing out and it is just

[00:50:18] it's gorgeous she even makes the music for it like it's it's an incredible incredible incredible

[00:50:22] podcast and uh yes I have gotten the rare opportunity to even listen to the finale they

[00:50:28] send it to me so I could hear it and I just got to say it lands the plane it's really freaking

[00:50:34] great and I love it I love it I recommended it last time uh I love it episode several has

[00:50:40] dropped in your in your feed I listened to it first before anything else can't wait for the

[00:50:47] rest and did they send it to you Rebecca or did you beg on bended knees absolutely oh no well

[00:50:52] I had before we reviewed it on crime writers on they had given us uh rough cuts through episode

[00:50:59] nine and then last week Amory sent us Kevin and me uh a new cut of eight nine and ten and she said

[00:51:10] please just between us you can listen to ten you cannot share with anybody else

[00:51:15] and please listen to the new version of nine and so we listened to a new version of episode nine

[00:51:21] which was very different than the version of episode nine we'd heard before and a lot better

[00:51:27] like so good and um so I don't even know if the finale version I heard is going to be the finale

[00:51:33] version that everyone else is going to hear but if it's even close like it's super good um can I

[00:51:39] make a second small recommendation for something that I have not finished of course um so Anthony

[00:51:44] Horowitz is one of my favorite writers and the latest in his Hawthorne series by the way he's

[00:51:50] writing like two series in a row the blank flower series it's like moonflower mayflower

[00:51:55] whatever flower series and the other the other series he's writing is the Hawthorne series where

[00:51:59] he writes himself in to the series of books as the Watson to Hawthorne's Sherlock Holmes um the

[00:52:06] newest book close to death just dropped today came out in my audible because I preordered it

[00:52:11] and I was so excited to see it drop so yeah so that's out now and if anyone else wants to

[00:52:17] listen to slash read it and like tweet to me about it I am I could not be more excited

[00:52:22] about a surprise drop showing up in my audiobooks uh Janet Varney is tweet texted me this morning

[00:52:28] it was like new Anthony Horowitz and I was like oh shit I think I preordered that and there it was

[00:52:33] I was so excited so so excited amazing amazing Sarah what do you have to recommend to our listeners

[00:52:42] well we have a we have a listener recommendation from Jennifer not that Jennifer she recommends

[00:52:49] the program cons cults and kidnapping that's on Netflix the best another oh double thumbs up from

[00:52:56] Rebecca the best freaking great it's another troubled teen property which is why because we'd

[00:53:01] already done hell camp we thought you know we we can't do everything that we want to have to do

[00:53:07] that one you have to okay very well we have been we've been told uh Jennifer tells us

[00:53:15] Jennifer tells us this is the one to watch very well done thanks Jennifer Rebecca agrees with you

[00:53:23] we love getting a list of recommendations they send us by email on twitter or via speak pipe

[00:53:29] what about you Mari well very shockingly uh Rebecca stole my wind stole my thunder

[00:53:39] I was gonna recommend unlocked a jail experiment I watched the first episode um today or just the

[00:53:47] other day and um I have done the 60 days in recommendation me and uh Jason Reed talked about

[00:53:57] 60 days in when he was on I think last he texted me I was like hey you gotta watch

[00:54:03] unlock the jail experiment it has like really good 60 days in vibes I was like bet um I started

[00:54:10] watching it and it really did so I am I'm only I just started Rebecca I don't I don't care if that

[00:54:17] was spoilers I'm I'm so in because I did get the earnestness from the sheriff I felt it through

[00:54:25] the the docu series to me um but it's nice to hear that he's like legit legit yeah

[00:54:31] yeah so I can't wait to watch more more of those episodes I swear I wrote that down before she said

[00:54:38] it and I was like oh well look at that um another thing I just looked up um the Jennifer Pan and

[00:54:46] Daniel Wong story is was covered by snapped killer couples snap killer couples uh season

[00:54:52] six episode three so I think I'm gonna like watch that and see if I get like a different

[00:54:58] feel of the case and see how they present it the case if anybody else wants to watch that too so I

[00:55:03] haven't watched it I just said I I think I'm gonna try and see what what snapped version of this case

[00:55:09] is so we love snapped Mari can I just tell you something a few questions and unlocked uh the inmates

[00:55:16] got to choose whether or not they wanted to participate or not which was a big question I

[00:55:20] had while watching it so everybody you see on camera wants to be on camera and lots of people

[00:55:27] are not on camera who did not want to be on camera so like it is a hundred percent opt in uh for these

[00:55:34] men and um and also following journalism rules like this sheriff was surprised by some of the

[00:55:42] stuff he saw later like on camera like the uh the documentarians did not narc in real time

[00:55:48] oh good which comes in at that that's important later you'll know what I'm talking about

[00:55:53] I I really want to know if it's like the same production company or something it probably is

[00:56:00] yeah it has the same feel director told me he makes a lot of uh reality tv inside of jails and presents

[00:56:07] that's that's their hole that's their hole that's it yeah I could believe that it it has

[00:56:13] that that feeling to it and I I do love watching 60 days in so that's why I'm very excited about

[00:56:19] this so thank you for that at crime scene we are eager to hear your feedback and suggestions

[00:56:26] for future episodes you can follow crime scene on twitter at crime scene rjp that's at crime s e in rjp

[00:56:36] or you can send us an email to crime scene rjp at gmail.com we're on tiktok at crime.scene

[00:56:44] and other social media at crime scene podcast and please remember to subscribe to our feed

[00:56:49] robhazelwebsite.com slash crime feed it makes a big difference

[00:56:56] Rebecca what do you got going on and where can the people find you uh well of course

[00:57:01] we've mentioned it a couple of times you can listen to the dot you can listen to the podcast

[00:57:04] on which I interview people who make netflix stuff and you can't make this up or you can listen

[00:57:09] to me in my crew review stuff that's true crime or true crime adjacent on my podcast crime writer john

[00:57:17] perfect uh sarah where can the people find you uh the people can find me at sarah caradine on all the

[00:57:24] things over on silent podcasts niamie calhoun and I are covering season 17 of taskmaster uk

[00:57:32] having a lot of fun over there with that and your osi queens anabelle fiddler and I are

[00:57:36] covering season two of alone australia our guest last week was sam smith from the traders new zealand

[00:57:45] and speaking of the traders sam smith and I are covering the traders quabek uh no neither of us speak

[00:57:52] french uh yes we're trying to make some heads or tails of it uh you know I took french in

[00:57:58] high school you get the idea and he played in the traders though he knows the game so we're

[00:58:03] having a lot of fun over there please join us in our podcast what did they france say

[00:58:12] how about you maria what have you got going on um so me and matt wrapped up the wrestling

[00:58:18] rehab up uh last week we went to wrestle mania we talked about our wrestle mania experience

[00:58:26] and now we're going on hiatus as I wait to deliver my my bundle of joy so I'm on hiatus on wrestling

[00:58:36] rehab up but over on the recap kickback me and chappelle are still opening the kickback doors

[00:58:42] we're still having um really fun discussions and we talked about uh good times black again

[00:58:52] another netflix uh show is that it's the newest animated series on netflix and it was a very

[00:58:59] controversial uh show when the trailer dropped so we had to we had to talk about on the recap

[00:59:07] kickback we had to discuss it so definitely go over to recapkickback.com to subscribe wherever

[00:59:12] you get your podcast or go to youtube.com slash at recap kickback to uh look at our video

[00:59:19] podcast but me chappelle and ty had a very interesting time trying to break down this new

[00:59:27] adult animation series that's supposed to be loosely based on the old show good times

[00:59:36] and it's a lot of good debating it's a lot of good debating over there so definitely go

[00:59:41] and check that out but that's it for me uh sarah what are we watching next week next time on

[00:59:48] crime scene we're covering the jinx part two with crime investigator sarah kalyan watch it on max

[00:59:55] and send us your comments and questions thanks to rebecca levoie for joining us will from america

[01:00:01] for the theme music and the whole rjp team behind the scenes until next time case closed

[01:00:10] case closed