Welcome To The Family: The Murder Of Dan Markel | Crime Seen episode 216

[00:00:25] I'm Sarah Carradine, podcasting from the lands of the Bunwaring people. Yes, and this is Crime Seen, the true crime review podcast where we get to the heart of how true crime stories are told. We're welcoming Kat from Canada as a member on Buy Me A Coffee. Thank you, Kat. Yeah, thanks Kat. Welcome. We need to figure out a member name, Mari. Maybe the listeners can come up with one. We can't get there. Yeah. Yeah. Crimeers? Seeners?

[00:00:54] There's so many cool like member names. Like, Something's Off Got The Klutz, man. The Klutz, yeah. The Klutz is good. The Murderinos are the old school ones. Like, we need something. Yeah. Send us your ideas, please. So, last week we watched Death of the Pastor's Wife with Mel Barrett, talking about Something's Off. Mel and Rebecca interviewed Micah's lawyer, Regina Ward, this morning as we're recording this, but last week as you hear it.

[00:01:20] Regina appeared in the documentary. It was an incredible conversation. Very inspiring. She takes no prisoners and she's a bad ass. And it was just, it was absolutely fantastic and she'll certainly be on there again. So that's Something's Off on YouTube and I'll link that particular episode in the show notes.

[00:01:42] The recording was live to watch for our members and the Klutz from Something's Off. We're also our guests in the chat. Listener Mildred sent us this comment on Spotify. Bum to miss another live stream, but so glad I got to see you in person. Awesome episode as always. Yeah. Thank you so much, Mildred. She continues, this was definitely another documentary I skipped watching myself because of the subject matter, so I really appreciate you covering it.

[00:02:10] Also, you seriously need to make your t-shirts available to all listeners. They're fantastic. I had no idea just how lucky I was to snag an elite edition. Yeah. Yeah. You are so welcome. I know. It's been a whirl this week. Meredith emailed us to say, I want to make sure you know that Mandy Matney of Murder or Murders, Murder or Murders podcast fame has been covering this case for years.

[00:02:35] That's the Micah Francis case, as we are learning to call it because she was changing her name. Regina told us that this morning. We must call her Micah Francis. They've just re-released all their episodes about Micah and JP on their new coerced podcast feast. Mandy investigated Mr Skinner's death. That was one that we had a big question mark about. The Netflix documentary gives it a couple of minutes, but obviously with so much going on, they couldn't go into depth.

[00:03:02] And also a deep dive into Micah's medical records and mental health, inverted commas, diagnosis. JP was also accusing her of stealing from the church when it was her account that he was alleging she was taking it from. Ugg! Yes, Meredith. Ugg, indeed. Mari, what did we watch this week? This week we watched Welcome to the Family, The Murder of Dan Markell, a four-part docuseries on Hulu.

[00:03:28] It was directed by Sebastian Smith, who directed Girl on the Run, The Hunt for America's Most Wanted Woman. We covered that back in February. I gave it two magnifying glasses and Sarah gave it 2.5. Mm-hmm. Do better, Sebastian. Now let's bring in our guest for this discussion. He's back for his 15th time. We missed him in Milwaukee, but he's here with us today.

[00:03:56] It's one of our favorite Texans, Chappelle. Chappelle! Hold on. Who, who, who, who, who in the running for the other? I mean, cause it's me. It's me. Jacob Jones be on y'all podcast? He don't count on you in California. No. He, he, he, he gave that up. Is it Asia? We had a, yes. We had a bonafide reality TV star on here and named her our favorite Texan. If it's Asia, I could support that. I love Asia. She might be my favorite Texan too. Yes. Yes.

[00:04:26] Welcome back, Chappelle. Uh, thank you for having me. I'm happy to be back in the scene team. You know, uh, that's what I, that's what I call us. Um, you know, so yeah. Yeah. That's that. So I'm back amongst my people. I'm sad. I didn't get to kick it with y'all in Milwaukee, especially you, Sarah. Cause you know, you're hard to get ahold of these days with you being, uh, across the way. But, um, yeah, I'm, I'm very excited to be back and, uh, I need to make sure I'm in, I'm now in front of Matt.

[00:04:53] I was just about to tell you, you were level pegging at 14, 14. He came to our live show in Milwaukee and tried to claim another episode. So you being 15, you click ahead of him, unless we allow the live, uh, episode appearance as an episode. That's up to Mari. It's up to the boss. We, we might have to ask the scene teamers or whoever our people are. Yes, the scene teamers. The sceneers.

[00:05:23] Does that count? Mildred, you were at the live. Does, does that count that Matt was a guest there? Uh, Mildred got my back. I'm sorry. Me and Mildred go way back. I know, I know where that vote is going. It'll, you know, it'll be adjudicated and we'll get back, uh, on that. Okay. Uh, but for right now you are ahead of him right now. As is tradition. So to the crime, Daniel Markell was a Canadian born attorney and law professor.

[00:05:51] In 2014, following his divorce from Wendy Adelson, Markell was killed in Tallahassee, Florida in a murder for hire motivated by child custody issues. As of September, 2025, five individuals have been convicted in this case. Wendy Adelson's mother, Donna was convicted of first degree murder, conspiracy to commit murder and solicitation of murder.

[00:06:17] Uh, he was sentenced to life in prison plus an additional 30 years each for the conspiracy and solicitation convictions. Sigfredo Garcia was found guilty of first degree murder and conspiracy to commit murder, sentenced to life in prison. Catherine Magbanawa was found guilty of first degree murder, conspiracy to commit murder and solicitation of murder.

[00:06:46] And she was sentenced to life in prison plus two consecutive 30 year sentences. Luis Rivera pled guilty to second degree murder and was sentenced to 19 years in prison. Neither Markell's ex-wife, Wendy nor Wendy's father, Harvey have been charged. But prosecutors have named both as unindicted co-conspirators in the killing. Okay. So let's really break this down.

[00:07:13] Four part Hulu docuseries on this murder. Chappelle, what are your overall thoughts on this property? Um, okay. So I wasn't familiar with the crime, even though I, from what I can tell, it was very, very big at the time. I saw all the, you know, the, do we always go to the social media people, the TikToks and all that kind of stuff talking about it. Um, and so I was learning a lot about what happened here. Um, I don't know if I need four parts for something like this. Cause I think it's very straightforward.

[00:07:43] I think in the first part of the, uh, docuseries, they really outlined that, um, it's, it's probably Charlie or it's somebody in Wendy's family. And then by the second part, they're like, and it's probably the mom. And so, but you know, but they really tried to, it seems like they tried to, um, spend each episode on a different person in the family. You know, like the first episode was really about Dan and Wendy. They think the second episode is where the Charlie story comes in. And then the third episode is the mother-in-law from hell. And then the fourth episode is the trial, right?

[00:08:13] I just think that was a lot to, to, to get to this. I thought they had more. I thought they had much more. And that's why we needed four episodes. Cause I was waiting on them to drag Wendy in. I was waiting on them to drag Harvey in. I thought that's why we like, we were breaking down an entire family. I don't even know if we've mentioned Harvey, uh, until they told me that he wasn't getting charged with anything. So I don't know. It was, to me it was fine, but I definitely think it was a little too long. Yeah. Sarah, how about your warrior overall thoughts about this property?

[00:08:43] Well, they are complex and multifaceted. First of all, it's really well made. It's really good. It's certainly a big improvement on girl on the run. So well done. Each thing is good, but there's too many things. It's like look in the mirror and take one thing off. Uh, but I think, uh, Sebastian, you should look in the mirror and take five things off. So it's four 42 minute episodes covering a case that Dateline covered in 42 minutes in total. Yes, obviously you've gone into more detail.

[00:09:13] I love the processy stuff. I love that we talked to the FBI agent and the main lead investigator, police investigator. And I reflected that, oh, this is really interesting because often a family will say, the police aren't telling us anything and they're not doing anything and they're sitting on their hands. And this really shows you that for eight years, they were constantly investigating. But obviously they can't say any of it to the family because the family knows the people that did it.

[00:09:41] I just think I could have given a 4.5, except this four episode is really going to, to, to drag my rating down. Like Chappelle, I kept thinking, well, maybe there's a bit that I don't know or a bit that needs a enormous amount of explanation or backstory or something like that. Maybe there's an interview we're going to get, which is going to blow the whole thing open. But no, no, it was extremely well done, straightforward and far too long.

[00:10:11] Murray, what about you? Yeah, this four part, this was egregious. Like very rarely do I say, oh, four parts. Awesome. But very rarely do I say four parts on Hulu because we know how I hate those Hulu ads. And we know how I hate those Hulu ads so much that I refuse to pay them money to take those ads away. Because again, how dare you try to annoy me into giving you more money?

[00:10:36] No, I'm going to sit here and I'm going to complain about these ads and it's going to ruin my experience. Because Hulu ads take me so far out of it, man. Like as soon as there's an ad, I'm on my phone, I'm doing everything. I look up, oh, the documentary is bad. Like I think that happened to me so many times. I was like, oh, I think I, I might have missed something, but who cares? Because it's like, it was just, yeah, it was not worth the four parts. I thought it was an interesting story.

[00:11:06] Um, but it, it dragged me. I literally was like, oh my God, like there's two more episodes. Like what are we talking about here? So I don't know. Um, we will definitely be going into the production more of this for me than the content. Because like Sarah said, it's, it's very straightforward in a sense of like a man is murdered.

[00:11:31] He, it is a murder for hire and it's just really good, diligent police work that, you know, ends up convicting all of the players involved. And it's just so funny, Sarah, because the whole time I was thinking, I was like, I thought there was no real hitman. Yeah, I know. It's always the FBI. Listen, if you're trying to solicit a hitman and somebody contacts you and says, I'm a hitman. It's always the FBI. Not in this case though. Yeah. Right. And Maury, Maury, did they, did they convict everybody who was involved?

[00:12:01] Because I still looking at Wendy, like now sideways, you know, well, they kind of tried to depict her as like, oh yeah. When she, she was like the family princess and everybody would do all these things for her. And she just magically had no clue that all this stuff was happening around her. And I mean, you know, the cops being like, oh yeah, she's unofficially, you know, a person of interest or whatever she was. And it's like, okay, well, you know, I don't, I don't really like that.

[00:12:27] We never really got that part of like how she was able to get away scot-free. I mean, it just sounds like everybody was willing to take the blame for her. But that's not a problem with the documentary. I really liked the, like Sarah was talking about the procedural for the, for the detectives, right? Going and get the, the, the camera didn't work. So then they go to the bus cameras. Then they go to this, then they go to that. Then they go, I'm like, okay, you could have did a whole episode on that.

[00:12:53] And then a whole episode on the trial, basically, you know, it would have been good. Cause I think they really tried to bury this, the mother, the mother-in-law or, you know, whatever. Um, I think that, that was the goal. Like if every documentary has a point of view, this was okay. The family's bad, but you know, who's really bad? Kris Jenner, you know, it just felt like that's what they were trying to depict. And so they had to spend a whole episode on her just to, I guess, to try to explain why she ends up getting the murder charge.

[00:13:23] Because she didn't technically do the murder. She didn't hire anybody, but she, she kind of, uh, led the charge to make it happen. Well, so the thing is right murder for hire, um, murder for, for hire cases are normally notoriously hard to charge. However, this is Florida and in Florida, like they explained, you don't have to be there at the commission of the crime.

[00:13:50] All they have to do is like, if they can nail the paper trail to you, um, uh, you can be charged with first degree murder as in, as if you did commit it. So, um, the fact that Wendy is not charged here, I'm not surprised because the way that I, I think the documentary did go to do a good job in that third episode of showing how coddled she is and how her mother and Charlie are always trying to kind of like clean up her messes.

[00:14:18] So I'm, I'm not shocked that she's not tried because, cause they're like, they're probably like, it's okay, baby. We'll, we'll, we'll handle this for you. Yeah. I mean, that's a good point, Mari, that Donna, that Donna, her mother would, would do anything to protect her. Also, they helped by Charlie not being the cleverest of, of criminals, as we say, stay stupid criminals. Uh, but Charlie, you got a mouth.

[00:14:44] When you get a, when you get a blackmail note, you say, I have absolutely no idea what this is about. Sarah, Sarah, if I'm ever on trial and they lead with, so you like to talk a lot. I'm like, all right, whatever you got me, you know, really ain't with that lie. He was like, yeah, they, but they, they ate him up. I said, dang, you know, it's bad when you like, okay, I do like to talk a lot. What the hell did I say this time? Or you have to go through the mental Rolodex of all the things that you done said. And, uh, it's a long list.

[00:15:14] And so, yeah, I knew Charlie was screwed with a moment they hit him with that one. Yeah. It's no coming back. I do have a little bit of an issue of that. Like after the mistrial, the edited, like the un enhanced, enhanced, enhanced wiretap. We've, you know, we've talked to Mel Barrett about how quote unquote enhanced audio wiretaps can be questionable, you know?

[00:15:39] So that did have me a little bit questionable, but, uh, all the rest of it, it was like, it truly was. Once you pulled on one thread, it just unraveled the rest of it. Right. Like the line from, um, Sigfredo to Katie to Charlie to Donna literally writing the checks. It's, it was just all there once they knew where to look, you know? Uh, the reason why it took so long is that it took them what a year and a half, two years

[00:16:08] just to identify the drivers of the, um, the car that they were in Sigfredo and, uh, Luis were in. So like if they had never found that ATM footage of them, this would have taken even longer. And it's already taken what, uh, almost 12 years, something to that effect. So yeah, like this, it's, it's the reason why murder for hires are just, it's just so

[00:16:35] hard, um, to really nail, nail that stuff down. The first thing I want to talk about is the production, right? I think you can't not talk about the production. And there's several, I thought of you, there's several aspects of this production that I thought could have worked, thought did work. And I thought it was like, I guess. So, um, I first want to talk about, let's say, let's talk about the sizzle reel at the

[00:17:03] beginning of each, each, um, episode. So I, they use these figurines and we'll get into the figurines momentarily, but it was so funny to me because one, I do hate when they do the sizzle reel of, well, this is what happened on the last episode. Girl, I'm binging this shit. I know what happened. Like, I don't care. But the funny thing is that I think it's so apt because we have Chappelle on the show with us today.

[00:17:29] Each opening, it was like Dan Markell's murder. Could it have been the mother? Could it have been the wife? And each time it changed, like this was Game of Thrones. Like this is the Game of Thrones intro, Chappelle. What did you think about this? Yeah, that's why I said it was, it was very apparent who they were going to, right? I, like I said, I knew nothing going in. I didn't know who Dan Markle was or what the family did or anything. And I'm thinking, okay, maybe, you know, I get to follow. I think that's my favorite thing about watching the True Crime documentaries is going through

[00:17:59] the, through the process of figuring out who it is, right? You're like, oh, they're going to try this route. Okay, not that person. They're going to try this route. Maybe we throw a red herring in there. Kind of like a little, like a murder mystery. That's kind of how I've approached watching them or at least how I enjoy them. But there's, because of the sizzle reel, it's very clear what they were trying to highlight. You know, it's like, it's like, is it this person? Is it this person? Or is it that devious mom? Like, oh, okay, well, maybe it's the devious mom. Maybe she's in charge of all this. Yeah, maybe it was all of them. Or maybe it was all of them except the dad and the daughter. I don't know.

[00:18:29] So, but yeah, so yeah, I enjoyed the, yeah, the snitch to the family of the family. I love them. But yeah, I enjoyed the little sizzle reels, but I'm so happy that you brought up those little, those little figurines. Cause I definitely got a lot to say about that for sure. Yeah. Sarah, what, you don't like the sizzle reels either, right? I hate them. I hate them. They're so unnecessary because it's saying, it's saying we, a big media corporation are

[00:18:55] completely out of touch with how people watch television in this post television era. I don't mind them on, you know, the episodic ones where they're 45 minutes and you're out of the room, buttering your toast or whatever it is you're doing. And they come back from an ad and they go, last time you heard this. Yeah. Oh, thank you. I missed that. But on something like this, it's supposed to be a prestige documentary. It's four parts. It's on Hulu. We're watching it. Thank you. We got it.

[00:19:25] So ding on that definitely. And plus it added time. Yeah, it did. And that's what I, and so that's what it ended up really starting to affect, I think, the watching experience. Because like we said, so now we have these little figurines. They literally depict each person involved in this crime in these little figurines. And the main figurines that we get are Wendy and Daniel at the top.

[00:19:53] It's like, it's the wedding cake figurines for our listeners who just listen to us, which we love and don't watch the properties. They are depicted as like the figurines at the top of a wedding cake. So you have Wendy Adelson and Daniel Markell at the top of the cake. And then each, each family member. Donna, the mother, has her own wedding cake figurine. Charlie, the brother, has his own with him and his scrubs.

[00:20:19] The black sheep, the older brother, has his with his receding hairline. Like the hitmen get their own figurines. So Chappelle, you said you have thoughts. What are your thoughts on the figurines? At first I thought it was clever, but then they didn't stop. And it's four episodes of figurines. Because there's one that really, there's two that really stood out to me that made me laugh.

[00:20:45] For some reason, they put one of the little pieces inside of a, like a champagne glass or like a wine flute or something like that. The martini. Yeah, they put it in there. And it's like looking down on the rest of the family. I was like, okay. But then my favorite one, I cannot, I'm so happy I'll get to be the first one to say this. My favorite one is when they talk about how the mom wanted the shrimp at the wedding.

[00:21:10] And they made the entire cake out of shrimp to be like, and this lady didn't even let them keep kosher. I was like, yes. After she promised. That's the one that got me. She promised. She promised. I like the little family group of Sigfredo, Katie and Sigfredo and Katie's two children. And they were all grouped together.

[00:21:34] And then they had a little flamingo lawn ornament figurine and a little sandbuck figurine and then a full-sized shell. It's like, you guys. I like the figurines as they were. I thought they were clever. They did Donna dirty by putting her in a sleeveless top. So her, I have them too. Her middle-aged lady upper arms, shall we say, were on full display.

[00:22:00] What I didn't get is why they were eyeless and mouthless. Because to me, eyeless is I don't see anything. And mouthless is I don't say anything. But these people saw and said a whole lot of stuff. So I didn't really get that style decision. I liked them. And then it was like, okay. There are a lot of moving parts and a lot of people to tell about in this story. If they'd been used more sparingly.

[00:22:27] And listen, the first time that the wedding cake splits and there's maggots inside, I go, fine. Please don't show that to me five or six times. Because believe me, I got it the first time. Every episode. Yeah. No, it's the eyeless and mouthless thing because they're still sticking with the wedding figurines. And that's how wedding figurines are normally depicted. Like that's what the old school wedding figurines are depicted as.

[00:22:54] Just like just very, very just, they used to be just a standard man and a standard woman on top of them. Nowadays, people do all sorts of crazy things with their wedding times. But yeah, it's keeping in that style. And it was just so funny because they're using these figurines, dear listener, as the recreations. And there's the scenes that stood out to me is where they're like, Charlie was a real ladies man. And they have Charlie's figurine. And then all these like women. Nude.

[00:23:23] These women figurines. Were they nude? I was just like, this is brazy. They were nude. And then on top of that, the one where when they finally got Katie after her trial, when she started turning on him. And they're like, Charlie, Charlie was he was staying awake at night. He would or he was he was looking in his bed and looking at the ceiling. And he literally the figuring of him in the bed just staring up at the ceiling.

[00:23:53] Stilling his scrubs. Stilling his scrubs. Yes. His scrubs did like that. That got me. It was the figurine. So I think the consensus is the figurines were funny and they were cute until they weren't. Right. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. I did like the props being out of proportion. So there's something about a lobster and there's two figurines standing either side of an enormous plastic lobster. So I liked that stuff. I liked, as I say, the little flamingo lawn ornament.

[00:24:22] There was one where there was handcuffs that were too big. So all of that was super good. But just given that you're going to spend four episodes, you've got to kill some of your darlings. You have to cut some of the stuff that's good. I mean, talking about length and just jumping away from the figurines for a moment. Someone who didn't get their figurine was the man that Dan was talking to on the phone at the moment that he was killed. Right. We don't need him.

[00:24:51] Like, it's fascinating. It's incredible footage. Well done for tracking him down. I got excited when I realized who we were talking to. It's like seven minutes of this guy. Cut the entire interview. I'm sorry. Cut the entire interview. Yeah, literally. It was just a guy that he had literally, that was his first time talking to Dan ever. And it was just unfortunate that it was at the time of his death. And the guy says he was on the phone with him.

[00:25:21] He says, oh, there's a person I don't recognize in my driveway. He heard a loud bang and it disconnected. He said he called 911. They said, okay, thank you. He hung up and went about his day. Like, that's how he was not connected to the case at all. So literally having him in there in the first seven minutes. Fascinating. However, like Sarah said, unnecessary. Like, really unnecessary. Yeah.

[00:25:48] Man, the more I think about it, the little figurines and, you know, the, I wonder if, was this supposed to have so much levity to it? Because you called it like almost like a prestige docu-series or it's supposed to have that same type of vibe to it. But for us to come in talking about how goofy the figurines are, I'm like, does that take away from what we're trying to get to here, which is that this man was brutally murdered and his family conspired to do it?

[00:26:15] Because I appreciated the man in the first interview at first. You're right. Like, oh, that was really cool. Until I realized there was so much that we had to cover. And then so much of it was spent like, hey, look at these dolls. You know? And so that's why I'm like, I like the idea. I thought the concept was cool, but I do think after a while, like, should I be laughing about the shrimp cake when I could be, you know, really, you know, empathizing with these people?

[00:26:44] Because I think the very last scene where Dan's father is talking, I think that was the most heartfelt scene in the entire documentary by far. It was the one person who sat there and said, this is somebody's dad, son, all these kids and these people's parents, they're in jail. These families are all broken up because of what y'all did. And I'm like, yeah, but weren't those handcuffs too big? That was funny.

[00:27:08] That's a great point, Sarah, because Dan Markell's parents, the only time I registered them was in the fourth episode. They put a lot of emphasis on the Adelson family. But, you know, I think the Markells kind of get lost here. And also, I don't know if you know this, Sarah, what was all of their interviews like archive footage?

[00:27:30] Ruth and Phil's, most of it I think was for this docu-series, docu-saga, docu-odyssey. But like you, every time Ruth and Phil came back on my screen, I had to remember who they were. Yeah. And Phil is going to have this incredible victim impact statement. Yes, we know what Rebecca and Mel think about that. And we are going to have a discussion with them for our members on victim impact statements.

[00:27:55] But that was an incredible statement that Phil made because he said, I'm not even going to talk about me and my wife. And then he names all the children of the five co-conspirators that now don't have parents. And I thought, what an incredible thing. You've lost your child, but you are thinking about the children of these people. And now that you've said that, we do get the neighbours of the Adelsons who are in every episode.

[00:28:25] Gene and Linda and their son Michael have a lot to say. Again, about an eighth of it should be in the docu-series. I think we always talk about victim centrism or we like to see how the victim is portrayed. I think we lose Dan almost entirely in this morass. I agree. I think they they realized it. And so they tried to name it because I think the official name is Welcome to the Family, the murder of Dan Markell.

[00:28:52] But Dan as a victim truly gets lost in all of this like crazy shenanigans. That is this like rich family who thought they could get away with murder. A very fascinating four parts to say the least. So let's go to our final thoughts and our ratings. So Chappelle, how many magnifying glasses are you going to rate Welcome to the Family,

[00:29:22] the murder of Dan Markell out of a possible five? It's tough because it wasn't bad, but I cannot lie and say I was not annoyed that it dragged on for so long. When Sarah and I were talking about it last, well, last night for me, I was like, hey, Sarah, I haven't got a chance to watch it yet. She's like, oh, yeah, well, it's four parts. I was like, oh, OK. And then when I got to it, I was like, oh, they really make you sit in these four parts and not in any way that's really meaningful. Right.

[00:29:49] It's not like you're sitting in any heaviness or any of this like suspense. A lot of times you're just kind of like watching the, you know, the crime by the numbers. And then you get to see these little packages or long, long packages of just the idea of who these people were as kids, you know, and, you know, really villainizing them in a way that I really feel like the crime could have villainized them enough. You know, I don't think you had to go and talk about the mom. You know, they clearly were trying to marry that lady.

[00:30:16] But and and to good reason, honestly, we didn't even talk about it because it's really not that important. But when she went and dressed up like a granny for the for the court case, not to say she wasn't a grandma, but ma'am, ma'am. But yeah, I think they were using so much that time to really bury these people, at least their personalities socially bury them. So for that, I really just started to lose interest. So I'll give it a three. Sarah, how about you?

[00:30:43] How many magnifying glasses are you going to rate this docuseries out of a possible five? Well, I mean, I've already said what I think about the four parts. It is well made. This is the problem. It's actually really well made. And the dollies are interesting. And everybody they speak to, including our man at the beginning, who I want to cut, are all interesting. It's just you have you have too many things on. Take off the tiara, the gloves and the suspenders and leave everything else.

[00:31:10] I mean, I did like that they had video of Donna being just so affronted about being arrested. And as she's being affronted about being arrested, her husband's slowly taking all her jewellery off and putting it in his pocket, which I thought was fantastic. So he knew the day has come. He's undoing her necklaces. He's taking her rings off. But why am I laughing? A man is dead. This is the problem. So I can't look. I'd like to go lower. But I am going to give it a three. I'm not going to not recommend it.

[00:31:40] I'm not going to say don't watch it. But I'm going to say you're in for quite a long sit. And is the juice worth the squeeze? Jury's out. What about you, Mari? Yeah, I agree. I'm sorry. I'm always like, I'm sorry, listeners. We have to agree on this because it's like, yeah, I'm definitely not giving it a five or a four.

[00:32:04] But I don't think it deserves like a two or 2.5, you know, because it is good. It is well made. It's just too much of it. And so I will give it a three. My suggestion for watching this is like, watch it one episode at a time. Don't be like us and have to have a deadline to watch it all. Yeah, agreed. And then have to watch it all in one sitting. And the sizzle reels might make sense. Exactly. Like, it might be better.

[00:32:34] Because this, but this was dropped as a binge, Sarah, right? This wasn't dropped as a weekly, whatchamacallit. Yeah, it was all at once. So, I mean, I think they, Hulu probably did themselves their own disservice by dropping it all at once. If they went the, like the HBO route and probably dropped it once a week, it would probably be better well received, to be quite honest. Because it's just the timing. And just, like we said, when you're sitting there and you're watching it all back to back, you're clocking all the filler.

[00:33:04] Like, filler, filler, filler, filler. The filler can be entertaining, but it's still filler. Like you said, Sarah, watching the neighbors watch home videos of the Adelsons. Or the Adelsons were on like a show and they were watching. I didn't understand what was going on in those scenes. I was like, we didn't need this. They were like the two guys from the Muppets. They were just like making like snarky comments about the Adelsons. This is stupid.

[00:33:30] So, yeah, I think we're all in agreeance that there's a lot of good stuff here, but it's just a lot of it. Yeah. I mean, we did not need Donna on the Wheel of Fortune. It's fascinating, but we did not need it. I'm always intimidated when I come on this podcast and y'all say like, how many magnifying glasses is this? Or, you know, what did you think? And, you know, you often let the guests go first. Because in my mind, you know, true crime isn't really my bag. Normally when I come on here with y'all, we don't even talk about murder. You know, we try to keep it really light.

[00:34:00] Not to say that this documentary wasn't light because it kind of was, which is really weird. The more I talk about it, the more I'm like, hmm. But when I started talking about what stood out to me and I said the episodes, it was too long. I really thought I was going to get one of those like, oh, but you know, we really needed XYZ. But for y'all to be like, no, actually it was too long. I said, okay, thank God. I wasn't just tripping because I was like, this is weird, really dragging this out.

[00:34:28] And like I said, they kind of give away the ending at the very beginning. They don't outright say that half the family is guilty, but they go, they pretty much do. Right. And then the fact that we also don't get interviews from any of the family members, it's very clear early on. Okay. Well, we found our bad guys. All right. Let's get to this week's mini. The three of us checked out Untold, Ray Gunn, Breaking Badly.

[00:34:53] Listeners know we are fans of the Untold series on Netflix, covering a wide variety of sports stories. Today, we are talking about Ray Gunn, Breaking Badly. Rachel Gunn, known competitively as Ray Gunn, is an Australian former academic and former competitive breakdancer. From 2020 to 2026, she was a lecturer in the Department of Media, Communications, Creative Arts, Language and Literature at Macquarie University Faculty of Arts.

[00:35:22] One of your people. She was 37. An academic. An academic, yeah. She was 37 when she competed in Breaking at the 2024 Summer Olympics, the sports debut at the Games. And I believe also at sunset because I believe they canceled that. But we'll see. She was one of 17 B-girls from around the world to compete in the Games. She received no votes from the judges in her three battles and did not progress past the preliminary round.

[00:35:52] After her performance, Ray Gunn became the subject of widespread criticism for her unorthodox conceptual style, which Reuters described as perplexing and a misfire. Mm-hmm. Oh. Oh, my God. I'm so glad to have you on here to talk about this. Because I have so many, so many questions for Miss Rachel Gunn. And for Sarah soon. Oh, I got a lot of questions for Sarah. Sarah.

[00:36:21] Chappelle, what were your thoughts on Untold Breaking Badly? I mean, I can't talk enough about how much I love the Untold series. It's so fun. Even though it's a lot of time, it's ridiculous. But it's still fun. This was incredible. Because they really are on the mission to... And I think Untold does this a lot. They really do go out of their way to humanize a lot of the people who are, you know, the subject of the stories, I guess, because their side hasn't really been told.

[00:36:48] And so from my perspective, I didn't know anything about Ray Gunn except for the kangaroo pose, you know, and the swim and all the moves that she did at the Olympics. And so to kind of get the backstory for how she started and how, you know, where it started, where it was going and how it ended, I said, oh, okay, this is interesting.

[00:37:06] But it's like a train wreck because no matter what she's saying, no matter what they're telling you, you know that that is either inaccurate or something's going to go painfully wrong. There's a moment where she's training for the Olympics and she's training every day. And I'm like, yeah, get trained. Train, Ray Gunn. Yeah, you're going to get... In my brain, I'm like, but I know this is going to work out. This isn't going to work out at all. This is going to end poorly. So what happened in these next 100 days that got you looking like this?

[00:37:35] And then it's like the more you talk to the actual breakdancers that are around, the more they start to say, well, she was never actually really that good. You know, and then it gets closer and closer. And then the real villain here, her husband. Her husband? Yeah, the real villain. I mean, dear God, you know I defend men's rights, but not men's wrongs. This man here, wow, you could have stopped this lady a long time ago. And you're like, just, you know, just have fun.

[00:38:00] Like, it was clear that she was in a frenzy at one point and that you could have really, she could have really used some support to say no. I think one of the talking heads even said, it's like this woman had no friends that said, don't do that. And it's actually true. She had no friends that said, don't do that. Plenty of people just kept saying, okay, that's fine. And she passed her way all the way up until the Olympics to where she got zero points. And what I don't like is that they did not actually show enough of the performance.

[00:38:28] They were doing the little drama to us, you know, like in and out of like, it was this cool, like shadowy thing that they were doing. When, where it was like, her husband was dancing alongside her. Yeah. Had to be. Had to be. But like, I want to see you dance. I want to see it. So like, let's say I didn't watch the clips or something like that. I guess you couldn't have missed it. But I feel like if I didn't watch the clips, right. And I just stumbled across this documentary, I still wouldn't get the full extent to how crazy she looked that day. Because she looked insane.

[00:38:58] Yeah. Very, very that. I completely understand. And Sarah, there's an underground breaking culture in Australia. Wow. So that's. With a sprinkler. Chappelle, I'm surprised that you expected more from a man called Sam Sex. But I'll leave that there. Thank God for Tiny Locks. Tiny Locks was my MVP of this documentary. She's a B girl. I'd like to say she's a real B girl. But I mean, I guess Ray Gun's a real B girl. She's not a very good one.

[00:39:28] Tiny Locks has no rose colored spectacles at all. She didn't want to go to the Olympics. So it's not sour grapes. But I don't really know that much about breakdancing. I suppose I, you know, I've seen it and what have you. But when we saw the video of the top world class champion B girls and you go, oh, OK. That's what it's supposed to look like. Very different.

[00:39:57] What Ray Gun was doing. And they say, oh, well, it's interpretive. And Richard Branson loves her because she's, you know, coming in from left field and all of that. What I saw was somebody who she started training properly 100 days from the Olympics. Olympians start training when they are 14 and 15 to go to an Olympics. I have a young friend. She's not so young anymore, but she was an amazing swimmer as a child.

[00:40:24] And her thought was her date of birth meant she only had two Olympics in her and not three, because depending on when you're born, how old you're going to be at each successive Olympics comes into it. She was training for years. And even if you only train since the previous Olympics, you're training for four years. And she says rather naively something like, that's when it first started occurring to me that I would be going up against world champions. That is a quote from this documentary.

[00:40:53] And I added at the Olympics. Olympics. So I think, I mean, I did like that it was humanized. I did like that they debunked the rumors that Sam was, you know, somehow influencing the judging and everything. And one of the other big girls, a little bit older than Ray Gunn, Flick, Flick did say, well, she actually was the best on the day of the trials. Which, Lord Jesus.

[00:41:20] It just is absolutely beyond me. And I think one of the villains, other than Sam's sex, was Loie Napolan, the team coach, the head coach, who during this entire documentary continues to distance himself from her. Oh, well, I only saw her a few times, maybe less than 10 times. Dude, you are the head coach of a brand new sport that's going to the Olympics. Oh, my God. Exactly. Marie, speak.

[00:41:47] Oh, it was, I could not stop laughing this whole time. Because, like Chappelle said, they really didn't show us a lot of her actual dancing. It seemed like they had a lot of footage from all of these competitions, but they would only show a little bit. And every little bit that I saw, she was off beat. I'm like, how are you a B girl off beat? Like, I don't understand the speed. Everything she looked like she was doing was slow. She couldn't do any power moves.

[00:42:15] You're telling me 100 days to the Olympics after you qualified is when you want to start trying to do power moves. And you realize you can't. Like, how was she the best on that day? Like, nobody was doing, like, power moves. The few things that I did see from the other girl that she went to the final against, I thought that other girl was, I was like, oh, she got rhythm. At the very least. Hannah looked very strong. And interestingly, we got the tiniest snippet of Hannah.

[00:42:44] And I thought, oh, are you afraid to show Hannah's routine because of how good it was? So, I don't, I don't know. It was just, it was honestly hilarious to me. Because even though she only had 100 days to the Olympics, her and Sam Sachs, her husband, who they met and their mutual love of breaking, which we don't, we don't call it that, right, Chappelle? Like, we don't. I mean, it's breaking, but they, they, I just, I question the mutual love.

[00:43:13] Well, I question the mutual love. It's just, that's the part there where I kind of take pause because it's like, if you really loved it, then you would know that you don't have no business in the Olympics. You know, that's kind of where I'm like, hmm. They have been, they have been breakdancing together since 2014, 2016 or something like that. So, at least eight years. So, again, I found that to make me feel a little bit better while also simultaneously pissing me off.

[00:43:40] Because when we all first saw her at the Olympics, we literally all thought, oh, she had to have just went out there and started breakdancing for the first time. And it, it at least made me feel better that she was like, no, she was actually very serious about this and she's been doing it for almost a decade. And then, again, on the flip side, again, I was like, you've been doing it for almost a decade and you were still this bad. Like, it was just, it was a lot. However, I will say I did like her breakdown of her routine.

[00:44:08] I did the kangaroos to represent Australia, the swimming to represent Australia. Didn't know the sprinkler was from Australia. Oh, yeah, I love, I love how they revealed that Tiny Locks learned that. And she was like, oh, god dang. So, like, I, like, it's like, I appreciate, again, the academic side to it. But nobody knows any of this while you're doing your routine. You look crazy. You're rolling around on the floor like this. Like, that was crazy.

[00:44:35] And she deserved to, nobody deserves death threats or anything like that. But the fact that it was such a funny meme and they're placing her in the outer space and stuff like that, like that was funny. That was a funny cultural touch point. And, you know, when it's done in good fun, it's good fun. You know, once people started turning and, and I'm not going to lie, it does. It also is kind of weird, right? Because James didn't want to watch this. He's like, I don't, that lady, like, disrespected, like, our culture.

[00:45:05] It's not my culture because I'm not, I'm not from New York. Like, I'm not a, like, breaking, I get it. But, like, you know, him and a lot of people still feel that she was very disrespectful when it comes to something very cultural. And it's that thin line of a cultural appreciation versus cultural appropriation. So I completely understand that.

[00:45:27] But, um, it was just, this was a, this was something that I thought was very interesting and very complicated and something that you wouldn't think would be complicated. Chappelle? I'm going to grab my koofy real quick and put my woke hat on real quick because I have to do it. The documentary does not talk enough about why people were so offended. Uh, they kind of just go, they touch on it a little bit because there's so much, don't get me wrong. Reagan is going through so much after she goes viral. From the moment she walks, she, she don't even get off the stage. Good.

[00:45:57] They pull it to the side. By the way, you might want to delete social media. She's like, what? Why? I just, I just competed in the Olympics. What are you talking about? I need to check my tweets. Like, no, no, no, no, no, no. Um, but to me, I think the reason why it's so offensive is that yes, it is a style of dance that was created by black folks, Puerto Ricans as well in the Bronx. Right. And because of that, it's like people that they've been doing this for decades and perfecting the craft, just like you would any other. It's sport, right?

[00:46:24] That's why it's in the Olympics because at this point people were deeming it a sport. It's something that you had to train to be able to do well. And there was a metric that you could judge it by. And so for this white lady to decide, I'm going to go do that and to actually basically fail her way up to fame because yeah, it was infamy for sure. But by the time Richard Branson is like, you know what? I like the cut of her jib. She likes to march to the beat of her own drum.

[00:46:51] Um, I'm going to put her on a cruise and I'm going to give her a stack of money and I'm going to, and she, I'm like, wait a minute, wait. There are plenty, plenty of break dancers in New York city right now. And probably across America and probably in different countries that really take this seriously. And so for you to be, uh, just failing your way into fame while these people have, they had no chance of making the Olympic team. You know, there's not, there's nobody going to the Bronx and telling some kid that's been breakdancing for the last 10, 15 years.

[00:47:21] Hey, you want to go travel for the Olympics? You know, but so she just managed to like squeeze her way into something that she had no business doing. And so like, I really, I really enjoyed seeing that she did take the training seriously, but she was just so far out of her depth. And I think the documentary could have took a second, took a beat to just kind of focus on why at least certain people were upset. Some people were just mad because, you know, they like to be mad on the internet. They like to drag people.

[00:47:48] They like to pile on, but I think there was a legitimate gripe against her that really wasn't focused on too much in the documentary. I completely agree. Sarah? Yes, absolutely. I mean, it was right from when they panned across the judges table at the qualifiers in Australia. And you think, well, there's not one white face on that judging panel.

[00:48:10] And then you look at the makeup of the people who are in the sport or in the creativity or in the art. And Chappelle, you're right. It's like, it's like in the arts when you say we welcome applications from people of diverse backgrounds. We can't just welcome them. You have to go to where they are and find them and make the offer. Because these doors have been closed. I'm sorry, I'm on my rant now. These doors have been closed for so long. It's not enough to just chock the door open and say, well, come in if you want to.

[00:48:40] It's like, go to where they are. So when you look at that qualifying round, and let's say she was the best on the day. Did you go to where breakdancers are? Did you talk to breakdancers in the community? Did you go to, you know, the working man's club on a Saturday afternoon and find the kids? You've got to go to where they are. You can't just say, you can apply if you want to.

[00:49:06] And I think Tiny Locks was really, in some ways she wasn't holding back, but in other ways she was. And she certainly had twitch in her mouth, which made me think, I think she's biting her tongue on a few things. The thing that really pissed me off culturally was that Ray Gunn said, and again I have a quote, people have opinions about what women do. It's like, no, it's what you do because there are plenty of women.

[00:49:33] Dude, we saw these other amazing women who were breakdancing or breaking or whatever we want to call it. She was trying to say, oh, it's because I'm a woman breakdancing and therefore people have an opinion about it. No, I am the first to sniff out misogyny. I'm the first to find people treating women differently from other genders.

[00:49:57] But not when you see in slow motion the beauty and strength and creativity of these other dancers. And when she's up against the 17-year-old world champion and she's 37, it's like sister. And she yawned. She yawned while the girl was making it. I mean, I know it's an act, but honestly. And I have a real problem with that world champion's name.

[00:50:25] I can't get behind it. Oh, Nika. But it's fine. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Sarah, as an Australian. I'm not even going to say it. Do you find it? Do you find it? Well, I find it interesting. But I think that it is very odd that we have now, this is the Olympics. Australians are famously competitive in the Olympics. They go get gold medals.

[00:50:54] They're tearing up the swimming pools. You know what I'm saying? And how do you have that much care in selecting your Olympic swimming team, but then just let Raygun, of all people, sneak her way into the Olympics? It's like, if I'm the, I don't know what the Olympic Federation is or choosing committee is called. But if I'm looking across the board, I'm saying, this the best we got? I probably wouldn't have submitted anybody. Yes. And it was Oceania if we are going to be absolutely accurate. So it's not just Australians.

[00:51:23] However, if you have a sport where people are amateurs, amateurs in the best sense, in other words, they are not being paid. How are they going to get to Australia? How are they going to fly to Australia? How are they going to fund themselves to get to this selection process? Which is why I say they should have gone out to find them where they were. I think probably the problem was it was new. It's not a sport as perhaps the Olympic Organising Committee considered it.

[00:51:51] I think they probably thought it was a novelty. I think they probably gave it very little thought. And as we hear after she is selected, there was no support for her. There was no support for her. So she says. So she says from the Olympic side of it. So I think we like a laugh. We like to have a joke. We're pretty irreverent.

[00:52:16] But I think this was a very bitter pill to swallow on the international stage at a place where the best of the best are competing. I agree. I think at some point, Louis, maybe he wanted to keep his job. But he should have said. That's the head coach. He should have said, you are not good enough. You are not good enough. Yeah. And like you said, they clearly didn't make effort to go and get better talent.

[00:52:45] Because if they did, somebody should have convinced Tiny Locks to go and perform. Exactly. Yeah. It's the Olympics. Because that's the thing that gets me the most is that, like Sarah said, people praying for the Olympics their whole life. It's past hubris. It's more, like you said, disregard for the sport in general. But if you don't regard the sport, then don't send somebody to do the sport poorly. You know, you wouldn't do that. I stand by this. You wouldn't do that for swimming.

[00:53:14] You wouldn't do that for track. You wouldn't do that for basketball. So why would you do that for breakdancing? It doesn't make sense. I think one of the things we haven't spoken about, well, we sort of have, we've glanced at it, is that she was taking the place from someone else by going. Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. So, Chappelle, how many magnifying glasses are you going to rate Untold, Ray Gun, breaking badly out of a possible five? Untold is always fun.

[00:53:40] I mean, I can't, like, I'd watch Untold again before I watched the last thing we talked about. So, you know, I got to give it at least a four. And I will. I'll say the stakes are too low for me to give it anything higher than that. Like, there wasn't any, there's no crime. You know, it's just kind of like, okay, let's just see what her side of the story is. And I do appreciate finding that out. Because one thing about, that I always miss is that when people go viral, they do get that feedback or whatever. But it doesn't just stop when I stop thinking about it, right?

[00:54:07] Like, when I turn my phone off and say, all right, well, that's enough of Ray Gun. For me, that's the end of her story. For her, that's every day. And so I do think, I like that the documentary really did highlight that people are awful sometimes. When you make a mistake or when you do something wrong, it can go on to haunt you. And, you know, and like I said, I don't think she did anything with malice. I think it was a mistake. But because of that mistake, I think her story does go largely untold. And so for that, I appreciate them and I'll give them a four. Yeah. Sarah, how about you?

[00:54:37] How many magnifying glasses are you going to give this doc series? Oh, well, you know, we love the series and I think we have particular highlights in the series. I know this is a rating and not a ranking, but I will put it up there with some of my favourite untolds. I'm going to give it four and a half. Chappelle, your point is absolutely taken. She didn't do it with malice, but she was enabled in that none of the people around her said,

[00:55:02] don't do this, if not for your own self-esteem, but for, you know, the national pride or whatever it might be. So four and a half for me. Mari, how about you? Oh, yeah, I agree. Four and a half. It was so it was so good. Again, I do think Ray Gunn, it was like Chappelle says, they don't really address the cultural aspect to all of this.

[00:55:27] But other than that, I was glad to learn a little bit more about Ray Gunn and that again, she was she didn't just walk out there. Like there's a whole bunch of people who did not stop her like Chappelle said. And her husband was crazy. He said that was that was the best routine I've ever seen her do in my entire life. Boy, if you don't get your face off the screen. He loved that woman. What are you talking about? He loved that lady. He loved that lady. He don't like her, but he love her.

[00:55:56] He love her. Very that. All right, let's move on to our recommendations. Chappelle, what do you have to recommend to our listeners? You know, I actually haven't seen it yet, but it was on my list since we're talking about Untold. The Untold Vince Young story. Yeah, I wanted to talk about it on Recap Kickback, but I normally go to the Duo Sports and Stuff podcast to have them come on to talk about it.

[00:56:22] Because Vince Young is just he was just like a figure that I was it was like a household name here in Texas, at least, you know. And so I'm dying to talk about it. Definitely want to check it out. And so if someone has checked it out, please let me know. Because I mean, like I said, this is this is somebody I just grew up knowing. And so I don't really know what his untold story is. And I'm dying to watch it and check it out. Yeah. Yeah. Amazing. Sarah, what do you have to recommend to our listeners?

[00:56:49] Well, first, we have a listener recommendation from Lisa. Hi, Sarah and Mari. So sorry I missed you all at RHAP Con. I was touring the Amalfi Coast. Thank you, Lisa. Say less. Also met some wonderful Australians. Can you take us next time? Yes. Lisa? Come on. RHAP Con Amalfi Coast win. Also met some wonderful Australians on my tour. We're a bit we can be a bit loud overseas.

[00:57:19] Such a fun group of women. Well, there you go. I downloaded some stuff to watch on the airplane. And what I came across was 2020, Britain's most notorious crime investigations on Hulu. Shout out Hulu. I only watched the first two episodes. Each were about 40 minutes long. If you haven't watched it yet, I would recommend. There are six episodes. The female detective in episode two was good. She was spot on in the investigation. I'm going to catch up on the rest of them soon. But wanted to suggest the series if you haven't watched it already.

[00:57:49] Hopefully I can make it to the next RHAP Con. Yes. We hope we see you there, Lisa. Thank you for that recommendation. I'm bringing a recommendation. Another new adult animation series. You know, I love my adult animations. This one's on Netflix. It's called Dang! D-A-N-G! It's about three siblings. I love three sibling stories. I think there's such a great juice there for all the shifting alliances and feuds. I'm one of two. It's not quite enough.

[00:58:17] Three is such a great number. In this one, the younger brother and sister are aimless. 20-somethings in New York. And their older type A sister drops in to disrupt their lives. It's fantastic. The animation is very unusual. It's very nice to look at. It draws very strongly from anime. And I think that works very well. Dang! is the surname of the siblings. It's very good to have American Asian representation in leading roles. So yeah, go watch it and let me know what you think.

[00:58:47] What about you, Mari? What have you got to recommend? Another listener, MStarks4, also known as Mildred, wrote to us with a recommendation. Would love to hear you cover Abused by My Girlfriend on Amazon Prime. This is the first time I'm hearing of this. So I definitely will check it out and get back to you. But yeah, that sounds interesting. Like that, just that one thing. I'm in. Yeah. So I'll definitely check that out.

[00:59:17] At Crime Scene, we are eager to hear your feedback and suggestions for future episodes. You can subscribe by going to CrimeScenePod.com or search Crime Scene, that's S-E-E-N, wherever you get your podcasts. You can follow Crime Scene everywhere at CrimeScenePod or email us at CrimeScenePod at gmail.com. You can support us at buymeacoffee.com slash CrimeScenePod. Be like Kat. You can sling us a couple of bucks or join our monthly membership.

[00:59:43] Members receive episodes early, question mark, and ad free, as well as other exclusive bonus contents. Listen out for our live episode from RHAP Con in Milwaukee. You can also support us by buying our merch. Yes, we have Crime Scene Tumblr available at my shop. Go to maricraftstomuch.bigcartel.com. And, you know, maybe some shirts will pop up there soon. Ooh. Ooh.

[01:00:12] While you're there, you can look at my other book-themed Tumblr. If you don't find any of your favorite books, let me know and I'll make something just for you. The link to the store is in the show notes. Yes. You can also support us for free. I like that price. Rate and review Crime Scene so that others can find us. Five stars only. Five stars. Your support makes a big difference. Chappelle, what have you got going on and where can the people find you? Find me on Recap Kickback with you, mostly.

[01:00:41] Talking about, we just started our series on the drop colon a snowfall saga on FX. We will be talking about every episode of that. We have a different world. The reboot is coming soon. And so Mari and I will be talking about that too. We also dropped the Beauty in Black full season review as well. And so Mari's just podcasting daily over on Recap Kickback with me. So make sure you subscribe. If you love Mari, then come over to Recap Kickback. It's a lot of her over there.

[01:01:11] Recapkickback.com slash subscribe or YouTube.com slash at Recap Kickback. Yes. Sarah, what do you have going on and where can the people find you? Well, the people can find me on Blue Sky at Sarah Carradine. I'm covering non-English language seasons of The Traitors with Annabelle Fidler over on Babes and the Conclave. We've already covered Hungary and Turkey A and we are just starting our episode by episode coverage of Denmark. Yes, my people. Denmark civilian season two.

[01:01:41] You do not have to watch those seasons to enjoy episodes just like here on Crime Scene. What about you, Mari? Where can the people find you? Well, you can find me over on Blue Sky at MariTalksTooMuch. That's two like the number two. We're currently talking about Big Brother over there. Like Chappelle said, Recap Kickback. We have a lot going on. So you can also follow us on Recap Kickback wherever you get your social medias and your podcasts. Thanks to Chappelle for joining us.

[01:02:10] Will from America for the theme music. And to all the crazy mother-in-laws out there. Until next time, case closed.