Crime Seen | Episode 123: Into the Fire: The Lost Daughter

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[00:00:26] Tag, Herr Jauch!

[00:00:28] Herr Ulmen, was haben Sie diesmal wieder nicht verstanden?

[00:00:31] Ja, Herr Jauch, können Sie mir das mit dem E-Rezept noch mal erklären?

[00:00:34] Es ist doch nun wirklich einfach. Also, Shop-Apotheke-App öffnen, Krankenkassenkarte dranhalten...

[00:00:40] Karte dranhalten, Rezepte auswählen, bestellen, fertig...

[00:00:42] Ja, Sie wissen doch, wie's geht.

[00:00:44] Ja, aber also einfach nur dranhalten ist das... Ich dachte, meine Frau wollte mich verarschen.

[00:00:49] Diesmal auswandsweise nicht.

[00:00:51] Ha!

[00:00:51] E-Rezept, Shop-Apotheke. Hältst du schon dran?

[00:01:19] Hallo, everyone.

[00:01:20] Ich bin Mari Forth.

[00:01:22] Ich bin Sarah Carradine, podcasting from Eora, Sydney.

[00:01:26] Und das ist Crime Scene,

[00:01:27] die True Crime Review Podcast,

[00:01:29] where we get to the heart of how true crime stories are told.

[00:01:31] Wir sind in transition here at Crime Scene Headquarters.

[00:01:34] Wir sind jetzt auf unsere eigene.

[00:01:36] Oh, ich fühle mich so.

[00:01:37] Ich bin so grown up.

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[00:01:54] Last week we watched Killer Lies,

[00:01:56] Chasing a True Crime Con Man with Sarah D. Bunting.

[00:02:00] Mari, what did we watch this week?

[00:02:02] This week we watched Into the Fire, The Lost Daughter.

[00:02:05] It's a two part series directed by Ryan White.

[00:02:08] He also directed The State of Alabama versus Brittany Smith and The Keepers.

[00:02:14] And joining us today, we have a wonderful returning guest.

[00:02:17] She last joined us to discuss Taken Together, Who Killed Lyric and Elizabeth.

[00:02:22] From the Pink Shade Podcast, it's Mary Payne Gilbert.

[00:02:26] Welcome back to the scene.

[00:02:27] Hey, how are you?

[00:02:30] So glad to have you back, Mary Payne.

[00:02:33] Hopefully for something a little bit better than what we watched last time.

[00:02:37] I'm interested.

[00:02:39] Oh, yeah.

[00:02:40] You guys are just going to call me in for murder daughters.

[00:02:45] Murder daughters and problematic women.

[00:02:49] Yes.

[00:02:50] Yeah.

[00:02:50] Yeah.

[00:02:51] That's okay.

[00:02:52] I'm here.

[00:02:53] I'm here to bash on Brenda.

[00:02:55] It's fine.

[00:02:55] Oh, my God.

[00:02:56] We are.

[00:02:56] Oh, she's not the only problematic one, but I'll hold my, I'll hold my tongue.

[00:03:01] I feel like I should have gotten some of the cuss words I wanted to out before we press record.

[00:03:07] It's okay.

[00:03:08] I can beep them.

[00:03:09] Yeah.

[00:03:10] Okay.

[00:03:10] Well, you know, let's get to it so we can, because it feels like we're chomping at the bit

[00:03:14] to dive deep into this.

[00:03:16] So to the crime.

[00:03:19] In 1975, when Kathy Turkanian was 16, she reluctantly gave her nine month old daughter up for adoption.

[00:03:27] 35 years later, Kathy received a request for her DNA.

[00:03:30] Body had been found and law enforcement suspected it was her daughter who had been missing for 21 years since she was 14.

[00:03:39] This was the first Kathy knew about her daughter being missing and labeled a teenage runaway.

[00:03:46] There was no DNA match to that Jane Doe, but Kathy began to look into the case of her daughter's disappearance.

[00:03:52] Assisted by web sleuth, Carl Koppelman.

[00:03:55] We love a good web sleuth, don't we?

[00:03:57] Mm hmm.

[00:03:58] Among other.

[00:03:59] We love a good one.

[00:04:00] A good, yeah.

[00:04:01] A good web sleuth.

[00:04:04] She first discovered that her daughter, Andrea, was adopted by Dennis and Brenda Bowman.

[00:04:11] And that Dennis had been jailed for assault on a teenage girl prior to the adoption being approved.

[00:04:17] Convinced that Dennis Bowman had killed her daughter and buried her in the backyard, Kathy began a campaign of harassment of the Bowmans and insisted that the police investigate Andrea's disappearance, which they had failed to do in 1989.

[00:04:33] In 2019, Dennis Bowman was arrested for the 1980 murder of 24 year old Kathleen Doyle.

[00:04:39] And in 2020, he was charged with Andrea's murder.

[00:04:42] He received two life sentences for the murder of Kathleen and 35 to 50 years for the murder of Andrea.

[00:04:50] This was a ride, y'all.

[00:04:54] Real quick, let me just explain my watching experience.

[00:04:59] So three weeks ago, I am in a very picturesque Cancun, Mexico, enjoying my first vacation with my husband, just the two of us in like years in this beautiful tropical paradise.

[00:05:15] I just want to throw something on the TV and I hooked up the Netflix.

[00:05:19] I threw this on.

[00:05:20] I don't know why.

[00:05:21] It's weird.

[00:05:22] I know.

[00:05:23] True crime in the background of a romantic getaway.

[00:05:25] Weird.

[00:05:25] I know.

[00:05:26] I get it.

[00:05:27] Whatever.

[00:05:28] And we're watching it off and on.

[00:05:30] And then I'm like, what is happening in this story?

[00:05:36] We watched like the whole first episode, the second episode, we don't get through it on our vacation.

[00:05:41] And so I come back and I watch it while I'm here and I'm like, okay, I think I got the gist of episode one.

[00:05:48] So let me watch episode two first.

[00:05:52] So I watched episode two first.

[00:05:54] I was like, oh, wow, this is wow.

[00:05:56] This is great.

[00:05:57] And so then I had time and I went back and watch episode one.

[00:06:00] And that viewing experience was just so satisfying for some weird reason.

[00:06:07] I don't know why.

[00:06:10] It felt like episode two is kind of like your run of the mill regular episode of you.

[00:06:15] Because it starts with you kind of knowing the perp and them having him.

[00:06:19] Right.

[00:06:20] But so when you go back and you watch the first episode, it's the chase, you know, and it was I just say that to say that I think this property is so good.

[00:06:29] You could watch it backwards or forwards two episodes.

[00:06:32] I can't believe we got a two episode instead of a three episode.

[00:06:36] What are your thoughts, Mary Payne?

[00:06:38] I thought it was incredible.

[00:06:39] I thought that it was like, like you said, it was like a ride because you thought it was one thing.

[00:06:45] And then it turned into another thing.

[00:06:47] And now I had heard people talking about it.

[00:06:49] So I kind of knew who the killer was going into it, which I was really mad about, you know, because I hate when things get spoiled like that.

[00:06:59] But it didn't make me not love it at all.

[00:07:03] I thought it was so well done.

[00:07:05] I love an ending where there's some satisfaction.

[00:07:09] And I love how they tricked him at the end.

[00:07:12] That made me really happy.

[00:07:13] I think that his wife, I really am on the fence about how I feel about her.

[00:07:19] I've seen a lot of people say they just hate her.

[00:07:21] She's so horrible.

[00:07:22] She knew everything.

[00:07:23] And in another case, I'm just like, this is just a classic case of an abused woman.

[00:07:27] You know, it's so classic.

[00:07:29] She's so gaslit by him and thinks he's so great for some reason.

[00:07:34] And I don't know.

[00:07:36] I thought it was a lot of layers.

[00:07:37] And I liked that the bad guy ends up and stays in jail.

[00:07:41] I like that part.

[00:07:42] I agree.

[00:07:43] Sarah, how about you?

[00:07:44] What are your thoughts?

[00:07:45] Well, I watched this pretty much as soon as it came out.

[00:07:48] So the only thing I knew really was the trailer, which covered that Kathy found out her daughter,

[00:07:56] she'd given up for adoption, had been missing and that it had never been solved.

[00:08:01] I knew it was him.

[00:08:03] As soon as he said, suddenly she became rebellious.

[00:08:10] Okay.

[00:08:11] Suddenly she became rebellious.

[00:08:13] And I thought you molested her.

[00:08:15] You absolute.

[00:08:16] Exactly.

[00:08:18] Exactly.

[00:08:20] And then I thought, okay, so I really have to just sit back because it might not be.

[00:08:26] She, she might've become rebellious cause, but that's why girls become rebellious and boys.

[00:08:32] It's why that teenage girls aren't just rebellious by their very nature.

[00:08:38] Something is in acting upon them and stop blaming them.

[00:08:43] But trying not to be heated, I sat back and I was, because I didn't know what happened.

[00:08:50] I didn't know if it was him.

[00:08:51] If it was him, I didn't know if he was caught.

[00:08:53] It was an incredible ride for me.

[00:08:56] And I cried and shook and shouted multiple times when her body is discovered,

[00:09:04] when Andrea's body is discovered.

[00:09:06] I shouted, she was in the backyard.

[00:09:09] You be be be be be be be beep beep beep beep beep.

[00:09:11] Mm hmm.

[00:09:12] But watching it like that.

[00:09:15] And at admiring Kathy and also a bit scared of her.

[00:09:21] I thought, what if it wasn't him?

[00:09:24] What if it wasn't him?

[00:09:26] And she is enacting this campaign of harassment that I've heard people say goes up to the line.

[00:09:33] I think it goes over the line.

[00:09:35] Mm hmm.

[00:09:36] Calling them multiple times so that they have to cut off their phone, putting up a billboard,

[00:09:41] telling people outright, he killed my daughter, putting it on Facebook, putting it online,

[00:09:48] saying it in in victim support groups.

[00:09:50] Now, she was right.

[00:09:52] Mm hmm.

[00:09:53] But where does that leave us on on that kind of stuff?

[00:09:58] Not only was she right, but she was right about which backyard her daughter was in,

[00:10:02] not even the backyard she disappeared from, but the one that her adoptive parents moved to.

[00:10:07] That was the other reason I thought, yeah, he killed her is because they moved almost straight away.

[00:10:11] And parents of missing teenagers and children do not move because they think, what if my child comes back?

[00:10:19] Comes home. Yeah.

[00:10:20] When I tell you it was a trip again, like, like coherently watching the second episode and then going back and watching the first one.

[00:10:27] And I thought the same thing because it was because in the second episode, they were like, you know, she just suddenly became rebellious.

[00:10:34] I'm like, people don't suddenly become rebellious.

[00:10:37] But to me, I was thinking in my head, I was like, but how long was the abuse going on?

[00:10:41] Because they've had her since she was a kid.

[00:10:44] And then when I went back to the first episode, I realized he went away for six years for the attempted.

[00:10:50] Well, he had so many crimes.

[00:10:53] He had so many crimes.

[00:10:54] The attempted kidnapping is the one that he served the six years for, right?

[00:11:00] Well, they called it attempted murder because he was trying to get an 18 year old girl on a bike to get into his car and he was shooting at her.

[00:11:10] So he went away.

[00:11:11] Yeah, he'd already been in jail prior to the adoption, but he also went away during the time of Andrea's childhood.

[00:11:20] So I was trying to figure out, did he? Because why would they let him adopt a child if he had been to jail for something like other than other than just like writing a bad check?

[00:11:31] You know what I mean? Like.

[00:11:32] Right. And that's what I thought as well, because it was definitely so in 1980.

[00:11:38] That was when he tried to for he tried to get an 18 year old girl on a bike to get into his car.

[00:11:45] She escaped. They still caught up with him.

[00:11:47] He went to jail for six years for like attempted murder, attempted kidnapping or something like that.

[00:11:53] 1980 is also the year he killed Kathleen Doyle.

[00:11:56] She was 24, you know, older by some years than his general victims.

[00:12:03] So I was thinking, oh, that's really interesting.

[00:12:05] And then they said she was four foot eleven.

[00:12:08] I thought, oh, he thought she was he thought she was a teenager.

[00:12:11] Yes, probably. Yeah, that makes sense. But yeah.

[00:12:14] So she was six in 19 in 1980 when he goes away.

[00:12:19] He comes back when she's 12 and all of a sudden she's acting different.

[00:12:23] Now this immediately should have told Brenda something happened.

[00:12:27] I'm so mad that again, I go back from the figure knowing everything that happened and I go and watch the first episode and I'm pissed because at this point, this is when the her friends are saying like, oh, yeah.

[00:12:43] Andrea, Andrea told us that she was being molested and all this stuff.

[00:12:46] And we saw firsthand that her dad was mean to her and all this stuff.

[00:12:51] And I was just so pissed off because I'm like, y'all did nothing for this girl.

[00:12:57] And it even pissed me off even more because it just made the runaway story so plausible.

[00:13:03] And it allowed him to get away with this for 30 years.

[00:13:07] What was the year? What was the year that she was murdered?

[00:13:10] What was the year? 1989.

[00:13:12] OK, yeah.

[00:13:13] So that was in the 80s when it was like, oh, yeah, it's a runaway.

[00:13:16] OK, we won't even investigate it.

[00:13:17] Yeah, it's very, very typical of the 80s to just be like, oh, well, I'm sure she's a runaway.

[00:13:22] Yeah, she had trouble in school or whatever.

[00:13:24] She was a bad girl.

[00:13:26] So I'm sure she ran away with me.

[00:13:27] I'm sure she ran away with a boyfriend.

[00:13:29] You know, she lied about her father molesting her.

[00:13:32] Mm-hmm.

[00:13:33] Yeah.

[00:13:33] She not only told Brenda, she told teachers they went to counseling at the church where both

[00:13:41] her adoptive parents were Sunday school teachers.

[00:13:45] And the vicar, priest, whatever he was, spoke to her privately.

[00:13:52] Her parents came in.

[00:13:54] Andrea has something to say.

[00:13:55] I lied, she says.

[00:13:57] Yeah.

[00:13:58] So there were multiple, multiple adults who let her down, labeled her as bad and rebellious,

[00:14:05] and didn't help her.

[00:14:08] So let's definitely, let's just, I think the best way to discuss this, because we're

[00:14:12] going to episode one and episode two, there's no point in going episodically.

[00:14:16] Let's, I think we, it's, this is a people driven series.

[00:14:20] So let's start with Kathy Turkanian.

[00:14:24] I know Sarah already gave her thoughts about Kathy and her harassment.

[00:14:29] Mary Payne, what are your thoughts on, on Kathy's like, just like the ball busting attitude,

[00:14:37] I guess would be a good way to put it.

[00:14:39] I liked it.

[00:14:41] I liked it.

[00:14:42] I didn't think I, I, yes, I do think probably legally, is it over the line?

[00:14:47] Yes.

[00:14:48] But I don't care.

[00:14:50] I liked it.

[00:14:51] And I, you know, I know that's, you know, probably the wrong attitude to have, but I liked

[00:14:54] it.

[00:14:55] And I actually have a very good friend that I was texting in a group text last night.

[00:14:59] And I told her, Suzanne, I said, have you guys seen this documentary?

[00:15:03] You should watch it.

[00:15:03] I said, Suzanne, this, the main person reminds me so much of you.

[00:15:07] So she wrote me back today.

[00:15:08] I was like, I watched it.

[00:15:09] I hope it wasn't Brenda that I reminded you of.

[00:15:12] I was like, no, it was the main lady.

[00:15:14] It was Kathy.

[00:15:15] She was like, okay, yeah, I can get behind that.

[00:15:17] That's cool.

[00:15:18] She just reminds me so much of her that like, yeah, you are a little afraid of her.

[00:15:22] A little afraid.

[00:15:23] And I liked it.

[00:15:24] I liked that.

[00:15:25] I liked her marriage story.

[00:15:27] I liked that she was a professional woman.

[00:15:29] I liked that she had to like learn how to use the internet to do all this.

[00:15:33] But then I was trying to do the math.

[00:15:34] I was like, okay, so how old?

[00:15:39] I was like, how old is Kathy?

[00:15:40] Like that was something I was like, is she 50?

[00:15:43] Is she 70?

[00:15:44] I couldn't quite tell.

[00:15:46] 74.

[00:15:46] She was 16 and I was 14 and 74.

[00:15:49] So she's two years older than me.

[00:15:50] So she's 66.

[00:15:52] Okay.

[00:15:52] 66 makes no sense.

[00:15:54] Today.

[00:15:55] Today.

[00:15:56] Today.

[00:15:57] All of this, this, the investigating started in 2010.

[00:16:01] Okay.

[00:16:02] Okay.

[00:16:02] Well, now they're showing her currently, which I have to assume was shot in the last couple

[00:16:06] of years.

[00:16:07] Yes.

[00:16:07] I thought, okay, she's in her sixties.

[00:16:09] Just then when you guys were talking, I was doing the math.

[00:16:11] I was like 51.

[00:16:13] What?

[00:16:14] But no, 66 makes more sense.

[00:16:15] It really doesn't matter.

[00:16:16] She was 51 when she got that first request for her DNA.

[00:16:19] So if you think about it like that as well, 51 to 66, she's been living with this

[00:16:23] for a long time.

[00:16:25] And been really working the case.

[00:16:26] A quarter of her life almost.

[00:16:28] Yeah.

[00:16:28] Really working the case.

[00:16:29] Okay.

[00:16:29] Well, I liked her.

[00:16:31] I know, Sarah, that you said you thought she kind of stepped over the line with some

[00:16:35] of her antics, but I like it.

[00:16:37] I think the question should be asked.

[00:16:39] I mean, I loved her and I was cheering for her and I think she did all the right things

[00:16:44] because she knew in her heart what had happened as, as did I, as soon as, as soon as I heard

[00:16:49] that man's voice, I just saw, Oh, there's something wrong with you.

[00:16:52] Yes.

[00:16:52] I know I'm watching a true crime documentary.

[00:16:54] I'm just asking the question that I think we should all ask, which is we're cheering

[00:16:59] for her because she's this great ball buster.

[00:17:03] I would love to, you know, go out on a bender with her.

[00:17:07] I think that would be lots of fun.

[00:17:08] A bender of tea, of course, we'd be drinking tea and singing songs from our adolescence

[00:17:15] and screaming and, you know, having a marvelous time.

[00:17:17] But I think we should ask about whether people, we talked about good web sleuths who we love,

[00:17:26] Carl Koppelman is amazing.

[00:17:28] And if you listen to Rebecca Lavoie's podcast, You Can't Make This Up, where she talks to

[00:17:33] Ryan White about this documentary.

[00:17:37] Wow.

[00:17:37] He talks about how Carl Koppelman has solved a number of important cases and is acknowledged

[00:17:44] by law enforcement as having done so.

[00:17:47] But the other side of that was our woman on the, the hitchhiker trail who, who was not

[00:17:55] a good web sleuth at all.

[00:17:57] Mm-hmm .

[00:17:58] And in fact was a damaging and, and, and indeed dangerous person.

[00:18:03] So yeah, we can cheer Kathy because she was right.

[00:18:07] She would say she knew she was right.

[00:18:09] So she had the right to do what she did.

[00:18:12] But I think we should ask the question, I suppose, is what I'm saying.

[00:18:16] Right.

[00:18:17] Yeah.

[00:18:18] And Kathy's story of having her so young and not being supported, like I, I felt so bad

[00:18:24] for her because like giving your child up at nine months old.

[00:18:29] Oh, that was rough for me.

[00:18:32] That was rough for me.

[00:18:33] Very rough.

[00:18:34] Right?

[00:18:34] Like nine months is just the best age.

[00:18:38] I'm telling you, like you've already gotten through most of the hard stuff at that point.

[00:18:42] Like, well, that's not true as a parent.

[00:18:44] It's always, it's always changing.

[00:18:47] It's always like every time you get through one level and you think you can breathe and

[00:18:51] you figured out that level, it's just another level that happens.

[00:18:53] But it's, it's so long to be with your child and be with your baby and connecting with your

[00:18:59] baby to give them up.

[00:19:00] And I, I, I know she had to feel desperate in order to make that decision.

[00:19:05] Like she said, her, her mom herself was kind of, was, was physically abusive to her.

[00:19:10] I believe she said she had no support.

[00:19:14] I, I, I felt, I felt so bad for her.

[00:19:17] Um, and it's so interesting that she went, she went on to be a nurse and be a caregiver

[00:19:23] and all that, you know, later on in her life, I found, I just found her personal story.

[00:19:29] So interesting.

[00:19:30] And that she told Dennis, not Dennis.

[00:19:33] She told her husband, what was her husband's name?

[00:19:35] Edward.

[00:19:36] She told Edward right away after they were married, that this had happened, you know,

[00:19:41] so it wasn't because I, I personally have two, three people in my life who were put up for

[00:19:48] adoption and have found their birth parents.

[00:19:50] And some of the stories are great.

[00:19:52] And some of it's not so great where the mom apps.

[00:19:55] I have a friend whose mother doesn't want to have anything to do with her.

[00:19:59] Like, don't ever contact me again.

[00:20:01] That was, you know, whereas the dad of that situation was so excited that she found him

[00:20:06] through whatever, however she found them.

[00:20:09] So I think it's Kathy saying all these years, I was waiting for her to contact me because

[00:20:15] you hear all these stories and then it never happened.

[00:20:17] And now she knows why it's just so.

[00:20:21] Because.

[00:20:21] And she was telling her friends that she wanted to find her birth mother.

[00:20:26] Yeah.

[00:20:26] Around the time, which may have been another impetus for the bad, bad treatment she was getting

[00:20:31] from her adoptive parents.

[00:20:33] I'm sorry.

[00:20:33] I would normally just say parents because adoptive parents are parents.

[00:20:37] Yeah.

[00:20:37] Simple as that.

[00:20:38] I am labeling these two adoptive parents because they are disgusting and despicable.

[00:20:43] We can talk about Brenda.

[00:20:45] But I think the wonderful relationship that Kathy seems to develop with the, I was going

[00:20:51] to say young women, but the young women who were friends with Andrea, the young woman who

[00:20:58] had been attacked by Dennis didn't realize it was him until she saw a photograph of him.

[00:21:03] This motherly relationship that she, this instant connection she has with these young women.

[00:21:10] I think this passion, Kathy is a woman of passion and they respond to her and they tell her everything.

[00:21:17] And I'm sure there was a lot of private stuff they told her that doesn't get into the documentary.

[00:21:20] Mm-hmm.

[00:21:22] Because another of Andrea's childhood friends was also in an abusive home.

[00:21:29] And we see Kathy, not only as we receive her, but we see her through the eyes of these young

[00:21:35] women who are the same age that her daughter would be.

[00:21:37] And we just think, my God, what that relationship could have been.

[00:21:41] And that Andrea was, she knows through them that Andrea was going to start looking for her.

[00:21:47] I think it was interesting that when they adopted Andrea, the, they kept the same initials.

[00:21:53] Yeah.

[00:21:53] I thought that was interesting.

[00:21:54] That was interesting.

[00:21:55] Right.

[00:21:55] Yeah.

[00:21:55] Yeah.

[00:21:56] I think what I feel bad most of all for Kathy and I believe this, she was 16 and she was

[00:22:03] sold a bill of goods.

[00:22:05] Like your daughter is going to go to a, a, a great family.

[00:22:10] It's going to be a fairy tale.

[00:22:12] It's going to be, which I understand.

[00:22:15] I understand why she thought that it's the 70s.

[00:22:18] She has your, your prototypically perfect, like, like blondish hair, great, nice, beautiful

[00:22:25] eyes, little girl who is going to get, who got adopted.

[00:22:29] I'm pretty sure immediately.

[00:22:31] We know that they, they adopted her at like 10 months and like, everybody's clamoring

[00:22:37] for a baby like this.

[00:22:38] You know what I'm saying?

[00:22:38] And she's being told that she's going to be placed in a loving family and have everything

[00:22:45] she wants.

[00:22:46] And to find out later that it is the family that ends up killing her.

[00:22:53] I would, I, I could not fathom that.

[00:22:56] You know what I'm saying?

[00:22:57] Like it would be something different if she goes to that family and then is, you know,

[00:23:02] abducted by a stranger or something else happens.

[00:23:04] But for, but to put your trust in the adoption system and for the adoption system to absolutely

[00:23:12] utterly fail her.

[00:23:13] I cannot imagine that, that type of type of feeling as somebody who grew up with a, an

[00:23:20] adoptive sibling.

[00:23:21] Like it's ridiculous to me.

[00:23:24] Do we ever meet the sister?

[00:23:26] I don't remember ever meeting Andrea's sister.

[00:23:29] No, no.

[00:23:30] We see her, the half of her face in a video call with, uh, with Brenda.

[00:23:37] She's yeah.

[00:23:38] She's in the, in the frame with Brenda and they're talking to, uh, daddy who she supports.

[00:23:44] And interestingly too, it's because of her that Andrea stayed because she thought I can't

[00:23:50] actually, she, she may well have run away.

[00:23:52] She may well have actually run away, but she feared leaving her little baby sister in this

[00:23:59] house of abuse.

[00:24:01] Because we got to talk about Brenda.

[00:24:03] Brenda.

[00:24:04] Brenda Bowman here is just, it, it like, it's utterly despicable.

[00:24:11] And like, I don't know if it's a part of the patriarchy that makes me want to hate her

[00:24:17] more than him because, but he's the true perpetrator.

[00:24:21] So I'm mad at him too, but.

[00:24:23] Damn it, Brenda, what the hell are you doing?

[00:24:26] Like, why didn't you help?

[00:24:28] Why didn't you help this girl?

[00:24:29] Why didn't you believe this girl when she told you that she was molested by him hearing

[00:24:33] what, do we know what that was?

[00:24:35] It was an interview with, um, between dinner with Dennis and Brenda, were they talking to

[00:24:39] the police or something?

[00:24:41] Do we know what that tape recorded, uh, interview was in episode one?

[00:24:45] So director Ryan White, and I know this from listening to, to Rebecca's, um, podcast does

[00:24:51] talk about where they got that tape from.

[00:24:53] I don't remember.

[00:24:55] They were, he and the producer were very adamant that they did not want to interview Dennis.

[00:25:02] Mari, they're on your side.

[00:25:03] Do not hear from the perpetrator.

[00:25:05] Not interested quite apart from anything else.

[00:25:07] Absolutely everything that comes out of his mouth is a lie, but they did want to talk

[00:25:12] to Brenda.

[00:25:12] They did ask Brenda and there was a chiron at the end that said, you know, Brenda want

[00:25:17] to be interviewed.

[00:25:19] Yeah.

[00:25:20] But hearing them talk, like, I don't know what it was, but it was them explaining their

[00:25:25] side.

[00:25:26] I'm a, my best guess would be, it was them at the police, um, like filing a report against

[00:25:33] Kathy and talking about what happened or their first interviews.

[00:25:37] Once, um, Andrea is, is gone missing or whatever.

[00:25:40] Um, but to just hear like, not only that tape, but to get the video calls when Dennis

[00:25:48] is in jail and he's like, they got them dead to rights.

[00:25:55] And then, or like when he told, when he tells her where the body is, they found the body

[00:26:05] and she's saying, we found the body and he's like flipping it.

[00:26:08] This is where I'm pretty sure Mary Payne, this is where you were like, this is typical

[00:26:12] battered woman stuff because she's crying about them finding Andrea's body.

[00:26:17] And he's like, oh yeah, I'm a piece of crap.

[00:26:19] Yeah, I know you're probably mad at me doing this whole reverse thing.

[00:26:22] And she's like, ah, but I still love you.

[00:26:25] You hear me?

[00:26:25] He's like, yeah, sure.

[00:26:26] Like it, it was disgusting.

[00:26:29] And she said, don't be mad at me.

[00:26:31] Don't be mad at me.

[00:26:32] So, wow.

[00:26:33] Yeah.

[00:26:34] It's, it's, she's afraid of him still.

[00:26:37] And he's obviously never getting out of prison and she's afraid of him.

[00:26:40] And it's, they've been together 60 years or something crazy.

[00:26:44] They've been together 40 years.

[00:26:45] They've been together for so long and that is so ingrained in her.

[00:26:49] I'm not saying there wasn't a million opportunities for her to, to turn this around.

[00:26:54] How about first time he goes to jail for trying to kidnap somebody or trying to shoot at somebody,

[00:26:59] all these things that he did.

[00:27:00] That's the time where you leave this man because now he's in jail for six years.

[00:27:03] So, you know, but again, she is such an abuse victim.

[00:27:08] If he's doing this openly in front of her friends, like if they're being abusive to Andrea in front of friends that are over to visit.

[00:27:16] Of course, he's worse behind doors.

[00:27:19] She's worse behind doors.

[00:27:21] But I think she is, she's in a lot of ways a victim of him as well.

[00:27:26] Um, and I not like team Brenda or feel sorry for her because I think she's awful.

[00:27:30] But I just have to kind of look at it.

[00:27:32] Like she's, she reads so typical battered wife.

[00:27:36] She's definitely an enabler because Sarah, we, we find out through these like video calls.

[00:27:41] Like she, it seems like she knew, she knew a lot of his crimes, everything that he did.

[00:27:48] As she says, because she is a good Christian woman.

[00:27:53] And as we know, no hate, no hate, Christian love.

[00:27:56] She says, I have not forgotten, but I have forgiven him because I take my vows of marriage very seriously.

[00:28:05] So that not just Dennis, but the church has also done a number on this woman.

[00:28:10] And listen, there are good Christians.

[00:28:11] I know not all Christians, but these Christians, yes, these Christians are terrible.

[00:28:17] And I think the fact that, as you say, the abuse was so open that Brenda and Dennis are sitting there eating hamburgers.

[00:28:27] And Andrea and her friend are sitting there eating.

[00:28:30] You can't even call them sandwiches.

[00:28:33] Two pieces of white bread with mustard and ketchup inside squashed together.

[00:28:36] It actually sounds quite delicious, but if that's all you have.

[00:28:39] Yeah.

[00:28:40] And that Dennis reaches over and smacks Andrea in front of the friend in front of the mother.

[00:28:47] Nothing is said and nothing is done.

[00:28:48] And as you say, Mary Payne behind closed doors, what on earth is going on to both of them?

[00:28:53] So yes, Brenda is battered.

[00:28:55] Brenda has been acted upon by the church, by the patriarchy, by her circumstance, by her mental health, by all of those things.

[00:29:06] I still blame her.

[00:29:08] Yes, I recognize I tried not to because I thought, yes, to the patriarchy works through all of us.

[00:29:14] It's the poison we all breathe in every day.

[00:29:17] Mm hmm.

[00:29:17] I can see her as a slight zombie lady.

[00:29:23] He's inside her brain.

[00:29:25] He controls her.

[00:29:27] She's a pitiable figure, but pitiable figures can also be wrongdoers.

[00:29:33] And she is a wrongdoer as far as as far as I think.

[00:29:36] He was her first boyfriend.

[00:29:39] And I found it very interesting that they didn't say what his age was, because I believe they said that she was 16 when they met.

[00:29:51] Oh, really?

[00:29:53] I'm pretty sure.

[00:29:54] I'm pretty sure.

[00:29:56] And then they said, but he was going into the Navy.

[00:30:00] But they specifically didn't say his age at the time.

[00:30:05] So he could have been 18 or he could have been 30.

[00:30:07] Exactly.

[00:30:08] Yeah, yeah.

[00:30:09] So I think that's very, very interesting.

[00:30:15] You want to be a friend of mine, who understands you like nobody else?

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[00:31:12] Speaking of a good Christian woman, at the end, once they find Andrea's body,

[00:31:18] she gets her cremated and Brenda gives half of her body to Kathy.

[00:31:23] And this enrages Kathy because Kathy is like, it's like chopping her up all over again.

[00:31:30] And I say good Christian because this feels like, what is it?

[00:31:35] Saul, the judgment of Solomon.

[00:31:37] Saul winning the baby.

[00:31:38] Yeah.

[00:31:39] This reminds me of the judgment of Solomon.

[00:31:41] Like the real mom is like, don't split the baby up.

[00:31:44] The other mom is like, yeah, sure.

[00:31:45] You take half.

[00:31:46] I take half.

[00:31:47] Like it's so surreal.

[00:31:50] This like the ending of this case here.

[00:31:53] And I, I, I'm not, I get why Kathy is infuriated by this.

[00:31:59] You know what I'm saying?

[00:31:59] Yeah.

[00:31:59] Now there's, okay.

[00:32:01] So my mother's been dead for a very long time.

[00:32:04] She was cremated.

[00:32:07] And she told me that she wanted her ashes scattered on the farm that she grew up on.

[00:32:15] She didn't write it down.

[00:32:17] She wrote down lots and lots of other instructions,

[00:32:19] including many colorful balloons tied to the handles of my coffin.

[00:32:24] Not my coffin.

[00:32:25] My mother's coffin.

[00:32:26] She wanted to go to the farm.

[00:32:29] My brother, a good Christian man, wanted her ashes in an urn behind a niche in the wall on the church.

[00:32:39] So I said, well, no problem.

[00:32:42] We'll put half of her there and take half of her up to the farm.

[00:32:47] Because to me, it's like.

[00:32:49] No, that makes sense.

[00:32:50] It's not her.

[00:32:51] It is her and it's not her.

[00:32:53] Right.

[00:32:55] He went ballistic and gave in because my father was still alive and I didn't want him to have to deal with us arguing.

[00:33:03] So a lot of, I gave in on a lot of things at that time because when the first parent dies,

[00:33:10] you are quite concerned with the second parent.

[00:33:15] Having said that, and I was perfectly willing to take half the ashes up to the farm, no problem.

[00:33:22] I completely understood this situation with Kathy.

[00:33:26] Right.

[00:33:26] Yeah.

[00:33:27] Because what we haven't said was that Dennis Bowman disarticulated Andrea's body.

[00:33:34] In other words, cut her arms and legs off and put her in a barrel.

[00:33:39] Along with dirty diapers.

[00:33:44] So I am with Kathy saying we have just brought her back together and so she should stay together.

[00:33:53] So that's me.

[00:33:54] Call it hypocrisy.

[00:33:55] But I think the manner of the death of Andrea, the treatment of her body after death.

[00:34:05] It's important.

[00:34:06] Requires, requires a bringing together.

[00:34:09] So in fact, Kathy's suing for the return of the other half of the ashes.

[00:34:13] I mean, amazing.

[00:34:14] Let's see what happens.

[00:34:15] Mary Payne, what did you think about the ashes and whether both mothers should get half and that that's okay or that's not okay?

[00:34:23] Well, you know, for your story, that makes sense, right?

[00:34:26] You could do, you see this all the time, like each sibling has a little or, you know, it does.

[00:34:32] But in this case, the no ashes should be given to Brenda because she was a part of the whole thing.

[00:34:40] Yeah.

[00:34:41] You know, and she, I don't know.

[00:34:44] I think, I think that you're completely right.

[00:34:47] I think that Kathy should have all the ashes.

[00:34:49] The end, full stop, period.

[00:34:50] Okay.

[00:34:51] That's what I think.

[00:34:52] I think it's ridiculous to give anything to Brenda.

[00:34:54] If it wasn't for Kathy, Andrea would still be in that backyard.

[00:34:59] Yeah.

[00:35:00] And Dennis would still be in that house, you know, beating up Brenda, you know?

[00:35:04] And so I, yes, I think Brenda should get nothing.

[00:35:08] That's what I think.

[00:35:09] But I think that, I don't know.

[00:35:13] I don't think like suing for it.

[00:35:15] I'm just like, I don't know.

[00:35:17] I'm glad that she sued for it because I think she's such a badass.

[00:35:19] But at the same time, it's sort of like you're kind of keeping it going.

[00:35:23] Like, let's literally rest.

[00:35:26] She does.

[00:35:26] Kathy does say at the end, I thought the angry would go away and it hasn't.

[00:35:30] Yeah.

[00:35:31] So I think she has that angry energy and it's latching onto this idea of the ashes.

[00:35:36] Yes, I think she should have it all.

[00:35:39] Yes, I think she's prolonging her own, you know, preoccupation and anger and distress.

[00:35:44] Yes, but what do you do with that anger?

[00:35:47] Every new revelation, it makes you more and more furious.

[00:35:52] Yes, her daughter was in the backyard where she said she was all at that time to find out

[00:35:57] that she'd been cut up, to find out, as you say, Murray, that she was surrounded by filth.

[00:36:02] And then you just kept moving her, like dig up a barrel and move it with a dead body inside.

[00:36:07] What kind of a, you can't even like grasp the depravity of it.

[00:36:12] You know, it's like, it's hard for just a regular brain to grasp that somebody would

[00:36:17] do it in the first place.

[00:36:18] Okay, then you get there.

[00:36:19] And then to think, oh, we're moving.

[00:36:21] So let me dig it up and move it with us.

[00:36:24] Because that would make my wife happy to know she was close.

[00:36:27] Huh?

[00:36:28] Yeah.

[00:36:29] So bad.

[00:36:29] Yeah.

[00:36:30] And that's a, and let's believe that's a lot.

[00:36:32] Oh, because I wanted my, my wife.

[00:36:35] No, because like, I think I agree with Kathy when she said he want, he wanted control.

[00:36:39] Oh, he wanted to control Andrea's body, even after her death.

[00:36:44] It's just, ew.

[00:36:46] Can I jump in here and say, you know, because my thoughts on law enforcement are on record.

[00:36:53] Yeah.

[00:36:55] You are a police officer.

[00:36:58] You're a law enforcement.

[00:36:59] You go to the house of a person who says, my 14-year-old daughter has disappeared.

[00:37:04] I think she's run away.

[00:37:06] And you don't look.

[00:37:08] According to Dennis, and again, everything Dennis says is a lie.

[00:37:11] But according to Dennis, her body was out in the barn.

[00:37:16] Mm-hmm.

[00:37:17] Didn't you not go and look?

[00:37:18] Just laid out on a table with a tarp.

[00:37:21] 14-year-old girl.

[00:37:22] Maybe she's hiding.

[00:37:23] Maybe she wants to frighten her parents.

[00:37:25] And she's hiding.

[00:37:26] And she'll come back.

[00:37:28] Have you looked in the barn?

[00:37:30] I mean, just one small part of the many failures of law enforcement in this case.

[00:37:36] But then we get the cold-cased investigators who take this seriously and work really hard

[00:37:42] and they work across states and they help each other to solve both the Kathleen Doyle murder

[00:37:49] and the Andrea murder.

[00:37:51] They get DNA sneakily.

[00:37:54] So, I mean, yes, all policemen, but maybe not these couple.

[00:38:00] Yeah.

[00:38:01] Final thoughts, Mary Payne?

[00:38:03] I know we don't, I know we didn't get through a lot of it, but I honestly want our listeners

[00:38:08] to go and watch this one.

[00:38:10] What are your final thoughts on this property?

[00:38:14] I think it's interesting that it was done by the same person that did The Keepers.

[00:38:18] You get that same sort of woman power vibe, you know, and it's women doing things and solving

[00:38:25] things and women rule the world.

[00:38:27] Thank you very much.

[00:38:28] And I liked the way it was done.

[00:38:32] I thought it was very well done.

[00:38:35] And I, the two very long episodes, I sometimes like a smaller bite of an episode, you know

[00:38:42] what I mean?

[00:38:42] Four shorter episodes.

[00:38:43] But I, I would give it a, I'd give it an A plus.

[00:38:47] Like I, like I said last night, I was recommending it to two people to watch us.

[00:38:50] You haven't watched it?

[00:38:51] Earlier today, I was at a dinner with some friends and I was telling them about this

[00:38:54] and they all like got out their phones and put it in their notes.

[00:38:57] I was like, everybody needs to see this.

[00:38:59] It's really good.

[00:39:00] Yeah.

[00:39:01] I'm very interested.

[00:39:02] Sarah, what are your thoughts on, do you think this was, what do you think is the recording

[00:39:08] time on this?

[00:39:10] Like, how was this recorded?

[00:39:11] Do you think this was like recorded in the moment developments were happening as they were

[00:39:16] recording?

[00:39:17] Well, I would encourage everyone to listen to this interview with Ryan, but he talks about

[00:39:22] it being very important to him and as it was with The Keepers.

[00:39:26] In fact, he didn't want to do any more true crime.

[00:39:29] He said, people keep coming to me with true crime and I don't want it.

[00:39:32] But when Charlize Theron comes and knocks on your door and says, here's a story.

[00:39:35] Do you want to do it?

[00:39:36] He was intrigued, of course, by the story, but he wanted it very much to feel present tense.

[00:39:43] Okay.

[00:39:43] But I think the period of recording was longer, was a number of years.

[00:39:48] I think we see that in the changes.

[00:39:50] In Kathy, she's on a stick towards the end, a walking stick.

[00:39:56] But I like that idea.

[00:39:59] He said they cut several different versions of it.

[00:40:03] I like this version where we feel that it's present tense.

[00:40:08] She gets the autopsy report.

[00:40:10] Kathy may or may not have read it before, but we feel this is the first time she's reading it.

[00:40:15] And so I think it was recorded over a number of years.

[00:40:19] I think they didn't know what the end was.

[00:40:22] And then they got there and then they got their ending.

[00:40:26] Yeah, this is a definite recommend for me.

[00:40:29] And like my top recommendations always are, it makes you think about a whole lot of stuff that isn't just the story.

[00:40:35] And I think that's why Ryan White is such an interesting director, because it's not just this happened, that happened, then that happened, the end.

[00:40:44] And they went to jail or they didn't go to jail.

[00:40:47] I mean, even in our discussion, short discussion, we could go on.

[00:40:52] We're talking about things outside the story.

[00:40:55] And I think that's what makes it powerful.

[00:40:56] What about you, Murray?

[00:40:57] What are your final thoughts?

[00:40:58] I was really trying to figure out like the whole time.

[00:41:01] I'm like, is this present tense?

[00:41:03] Like, is this happening as it's going or is this like it's like the end and they're kind of doing not recreations, but like going back to the scenes and stuff like that.

[00:41:15] So I really couldn't tell.

[00:41:17] And honestly.

[00:41:18] Even because even not telling, it doesn't matter.

[00:41:21] The storytelling was still good, no matter what time frame, what time period we were looking at here and however many years.

[00:41:28] I mean, technically, Kathy's story starts from 2010, 2011 ish and goes all the way to 2020.

[00:41:37] Right.

[00:41:37] So like the fact that it spans that long and the fact that we get a lot of it, at least from her point of view and stuff like that in the storytelling, it was just amazing.

[00:41:50] And it also really makes you think how many tiny coincidences have to happen.

[00:41:58] If anything's going to make you believe in God, it's going to be these like little tiny coincidences between like them thinking that the one Jane Doe might be her daughter in order to alert her that her daughter was even missing.

[00:42:11] In order for her to start this Facebook group, for her to find Carl, for her to find Meta, for Meta to then see Andrea's dad and be like, oh, my God.

[00:42:21] I think the dad was the one who assaulted me, you know, to them, you know, finding and tracing Andrea down, buying the FOIA, the Freedom of Information Act that they took out on Dennis Bowman to find out all of his record and stuff like that.

[00:42:38] To get Kathy going.

[00:42:40] And then finally, the coincidence of the Norfolk PD guy talking to the Michigan PD guy.

[00:42:46] Like, I mean, like this, this case could literally still be unsolved till this day.

[00:42:53] Yeah.

[00:42:54] If Kathy didn't find out that her daughter went missing 21 years prior.

[00:43:01] Like, that's mind boggling to me.

[00:43:04] Like, truly, truly mind boggling.

[00:43:06] And that makes me think everything happens for a reason and stuff like that.

[00:43:12] So great storytelling.

[00:43:15] I didn't mind the two episodes.

[00:43:18] Let's get into our ratings.

[00:43:20] Mary Payne, how many magnifying glasses are you going to rate Into the Fire out of a possible five?

[00:43:27] Five.

[00:43:29] Enough said.

[00:43:32] I'm giving it a five.

[00:43:33] That's right.

[00:43:34] I don't, I don't know what the, if we were on a harsh judging system here, if we're on a sliding scale, like in college.

[00:43:40] But I'm, for my opinion, I'm going to give it the highest rating possible.

[00:43:44] I thought it was excellent.

[00:43:45] I love that.

[00:43:46] Sarah, how about you?

[00:43:48] Five.

[00:43:49] No labration.

[00:43:50] Just no question.

[00:43:51] Yeah.

[00:43:52] Mary, how about you?

[00:43:53] Yes.

[00:43:54] No, I'm going to give it a five as well.

[00:43:55] I think it was, it was done very well.

[00:43:59] Shout out to Ryan White.

[00:44:01] This is.

[00:44:01] And Charlize Theron.

[00:44:02] And Charlize Theron, apparently.

[00:44:05] This, this really hit it out of the park.

[00:44:07] It really did.

[00:44:07] I didn't mind the two episodes.

[00:44:09] They were, I did realize, I was like, oh, okay, these are kind of long.

[00:44:12] Yeah.

[00:44:13] But I thought it was, I thought it was kind of perfect the way that they stopped it and, and how the second episode started and all of that.

[00:44:20] I think they did a great job centering the victims.

[00:44:23] They did a great job centering the victims.

[00:44:26] Even the Jane Doe, the one found in the cornfield that we still don't know who it is.

[00:44:32] The one that kickstarted all of this.

[00:44:34] They even gave her, her moment.

[00:44:36] So I don't think I can ask for anything more from a property shining a light on something I didn't know.

[00:44:43] Interesting twists and turns.

[00:44:46] Very raw storytelling.

[00:44:48] Centering the victim.

[00:44:50] Satisfying ending.

[00:44:51] I mean, it truly, truly hits it out of the park.

[00:44:55] So I'm glad we were able to talk about it.

[00:44:58] Thank you to all of our listeners who suggested it to us.

[00:45:01] We had a few suggestions.

[00:45:03] We were getting around to it.

[00:45:04] I'm sorry, it's my fault.

[00:45:05] Like I said, I was, I was on a beach.

[00:45:07] So it took us a minute to get to it.

[00:45:10] Um, but I'm definitely glad we talked about it.

[00:45:14] I hope you guys enjoyed listening to us talk about it, but let's get to our recommendations.

[00:45:19] Mary Payne, do you have anything to, uh, recommend to our listeners?

[00:45:23] Is this a, this is something that I'm watching or listening to?

[00:45:25] Whatever you want.

[00:45:27] Um, I would like to recommend love is blind.

[00:45:30] The new season, the new season is upon us and it is Mari and I's people here in the DC area.

[00:45:38] And we know all these types, boy, do we know these times?

[00:45:42] I already had to look up two different people to see if my husband knew them.

[00:45:46] And then very strangely enough, I went yesterday to, um, uh, like an appointment at an esthetician.

[00:45:53] I was getting like a facial thing and I'm just talking to the shit chatting to the girl.

[00:45:58] Oh, what do you do?

[00:45:59] I'm a podcaster, blah, blah.

[00:46:00] What do you cover?

[00:46:01] Reality TV.

[00:46:02] And I told her I was covering love is blind.

[00:46:03] She goes, you know, one of the girls on that show works here.

[00:46:05] Oh, can you believe that?

[00:46:08] I was like, what?

[00:46:10] Where is she?

[00:46:11] Right.

[00:46:12] Yeah.

[00:46:12] Where is she?

[00:46:13] Where is she here?

[00:46:13] Let me talk to her.

[00:46:14] She is not a girl that is one of the ones that goes on to couple off, but she is, you

[00:46:20] know, she's the pod squad as we say.

[00:46:21] So I'm covering that over on Pink Shade, uh, Patreon, Supercast, Apple subscriptions.

[00:46:26] And I've had a great time talking to my co-host Keisha about it.

[00:46:30] It's been really fun, especially because it's set in DC.

[00:46:34] And now I'm trying to like figure out where their apartments are.

[00:46:37] Yeah.

[00:46:38] I love to like look at hometown stuff like that.

[00:46:40] Yeah.

[00:46:41] Same, same.

[00:46:43] Uh, Sarah, what about you?

[00:46:44] What do you have to recommend to our listeners?

[00:46:46] Well, I don't know if anyone in the sound of my voice needs to be urged to watch only

[00:46:52] murders in the building season four.

[00:46:55] Uh, it's wonderful.

[00:46:56] It's brilliant.

[00:46:57] You're already watching it.

[00:46:59] Uh, if you're not, if you haven't started season four, if you've never watched it at

[00:47:05] all, gasp, get on it.

[00:47:10] And a fifth season was confirmed last month.

[00:47:12] So there are plenty more murders in the building to come.

[00:47:16] And I've recommended this before, but it just keeps getting better.

[00:47:19] Slow Horses on Apple TV plus.

[00:47:21] That alone is worth a subscription.

[00:47:23] Also in its fourth season, it's absolutely incredible.

[00:47:27] Uh, I envy anyone who hasn't watched it yet.

[00:47:30] I haven't watched it.

[00:47:31] Tell me what it's about.

[00:47:32] Just give me a hint.

[00:47:32] Oh, you have four seasons of incredible British spy drama to watch.

[00:47:36] Ooh, I love British spy drama.

[00:47:38] The Slow Horses are the rejects from MI5.

[00:47:42] Oh.

[00:47:43] They've done something wrong or they've been a bit, uh, they've gone over a few lines or

[00:47:47] they're not quite right.

[00:47:49] Or as the British say, NQOSD, which is not quite our sort, darling.

[00:47:55] Uh, the Slow Horses and, uh, Gary Oldman is the one who runs them.

[00:48:03] Fascinating characters.

[00:48:04] Of course, they're always drawn back into the bigger, uh, spy stories.

[00:48:10] Kristen Scott Thomas is a second chair at MI5.

[00:48:14] She has her own story.

[00:48:18] Absolutely brilliant.

[00:48:20] Okay.

[00:48:21] I can't know about it.

[00:48:22] So Mary Pan, you are one of the people I envy because you can watch three and a half

[00:48:26] seasons and the fourth season coming to an incredible end.

[00:48:31] And, uh, my tongue is hanging out.

[00:48:33] It's so good.

[00:48:34] Okay, great.

[00:48:35] Thank you.

[00:48:36] And what about you, Mari?

[00:48:38] What do you have to recommend?

[00:48:39] I'm pretty sure I might've talked about this one on the podcast.

[00:48:42] Uh, maybe just saying that I was going to check it out, but I finally got around to

[00:48:46] watching Presumed Innocent on Apple TV+.

[00:48:50] I'm like, I don't even know.

[00:48:52] I, I just let it, I let it go.

[00:48:54] I was on like, I think episode four or five and it is good.

[00:48:58] It is everything I wanted in a book adaptation of one of my favorite books from Scott Turow.

[00:49:04] And I'm, I'm loving it.

[00:49:06] I, I, I'm not done with it yet, but it, it was already made into a movie of what?

[00:49:12] Back in the early nineties.

[00:49:13] I believe.

[00:49:14] I can't remember if it was Harrison Ford or one of them who.

[00:49:17] Is it the guy with the, who said that the man with the one leg came in and killed his

[00:49:21] wife?

[00:49:21] Is that the, and he was a doctor or am I complaining two stories?

[00:49:24] That might be two stories.

[00:49:26] This is the murder.

[00:49:27] It was an, um, the one armed man.

[00:49:29] One armed man.

[00:49:31] This is, no, this is the one where the mistress dies.

[00:49:34] The man's mistress died.

[00:49:35] And he's a prosecutor and he's being prosecuted by like his, like his former team is like prosecuting

[00:49:43] him.

[00:49:43] It's really, yeah, it's really good.

[00:49:45] Um, so, and it stars Jake Gyllenhaal, like I said, uh, Ruth Naga as well.

[00:49:51] Oh, I love it.

[00:49:52] It's so good.

[00:49:53] It's so good.

[00:49:53] So, um, if you, if you haven't checked that out, go check that out.

[00:49:57] Cool.

[00:49:58] At Crime Scene, we're eager to hear your feedback and suggestions for future episodes.

[00:50:02] You can follow us everywhere at Crime Scene Pod or send us an email at CrimeScenePod at

[00:50:09] gmail.com.

[00:50:11] The only place we're not Crime Scene Pod is on TikTok, where we are Crime.Scene.

[00:50:17] Mary Payne, what do you have going on and where can the people find you?

[00:50:21] Oh, I have a podcast.

[00:50:22] It's called Pink Shade and I cover Love After Lockup, 90 Day Fiance.

[00:50:28] I cover pop culture and Bravo and, uh, yeah, cover things like Welcome to Plathville.

[00:50:35] And then of course, covering Love is Blind, DC edition that's over there on our subscription

[00:50:40] services.

[00:50:41] So yeah, and you can follow me on Instagram at Pink Shade Pod.

[00:50:45] Sarah, where can the people find you?

[00:50:47] They can find me at Sarah Carradine on all the things, if that's something they would

[00:50:50] like to do.

[00:50:51] You can also find me over on Silent Podcast International, bringing you The Amazing Race

[00:50:56] Australia Celebrity Edition 2 with Annabelle Fiddler.

[00:51:01] And Sam Smith and I will be bringing you Dutch Courage.

[00:51:04] Yes, we're going back to the beginning and talking about De Verade's, the original season of

[00:51:09] The Traitors from the Netherlands.

[00:51:12] And what about you, Mari?

[00:51:13] Where can you be found?

[00:51:14] You can find me on Twitter at MariTalksTooMuch.

[00:51:18] That is two, like the number two.

[00:51:20] You can also find me over on the Recap Kickback Podcast by going to RecapKickback.com.

[00:51:26] It's where me and Chappelle cover the weekend entertainment news the only way that we can.

[00:51:33] This past week, we covered an amazing show, which maybe I should just turn it into a triple

[00:51:41] recommendation, How to Die Alone on Hulu, starring Natasha Rothwell.

[00:51:46] We break down and we recap episodes one through four with the amazing Matt Scott.

[00:51:51] And then we also bring you entertainment news from the week.

[00:51:54] The Recap Kickback is on.

[00:51:57] It's popping.

[00:51:58] Come join us.

[00:51:59] You can also find us on YouTube.com slash at Recap Kickback.

[00:52:03] We're having so much fun.

[00:52:05] So please go like and subscribe to support us.

[00:52:10] Sarah, what are we watching next week?

[00:52:12] Next time on Crime Scene, we're covering Jailbreak, Love on the Run on Netflix.

[00:52:18] And Matt Scott and Chappelle will join us for that.

[00:52:20] I'm sure it'll be absolute chaos.

[00:52:22] Please watch it and send us your comments and questions.

[00:52:25] Thanks to Mary Payne for joining us.

[00:52:28] Will from America for the theme music.

[00:52:30] Tricky Rice for the graphics.

[00:52:31] And Jess Sterling behind the scenes.

[00:52:34] Until next time.

[00:52:36] Case closed.

[00:52:39] So I'm gonna watch it and I'll sand anduter have a hot tubbit.

[00:52:39] By the start I'll be sharing my bow.

[00:52:39] No